How the fuck am I like a twelve year old kid? A twelve year old kid would say that "OMGZ!!!!!!CENA ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!!!" while I am actually taking the time to explain why he is so great. And the fact that you think those matches are better than Khali vs. Cena shows your blind hate for a great champion.
Well, you're not Rocky, Austin, or Hogan, and I have never heard of any of the three speaking badly about Cena, not even Hogan, whose ego is bigger than Viscera's pajamas. And so what if Cena's strength is in gimmick matches? Last time I checked, most fans enjoyed gimmick matches more than regular matches. So, if it's working, then what's the problem?
Cena's boos are a product of the WWE booking him like Superman and shoving him down the fans' throats. Cena doesn't book his own matches, the creative team does. Cena/HBK on Raw had contributions from both superstars. Cena/Edge at Unforgiven had contributions from both superstars. The idea that Cena was carried in those matches is complete and utter bullshit.
You would do the same thing if you ran the company. So would I. So would anybody with a brain. Why wouldn't you push the superstar who make you money over the countless superstars who don't make you money?
Actually, yes he did. I found it funny because I also think Cena sucks. You don't agree with that, so obviously the joke left a sour taste in your mouth.
And what is the WWE's key demographic, might I ask? Look at the average age of the geeks like me on here (granted that's only partially reflective), and then look out in the audience at shows. I'd bet a lion's share of my meager paychecks that it isn't in either of the categories you mentioned. Besides, there aren't many bragging rights in being the top, overpushed face, when only a portion of the audience actually gives a shit...and the disgruntled ones are actually loud enough to be heard chanting against you.
Relatively is putting it mildly. Try a sling of manuevers that range from pathetic looking in delivery (fisherman's suplex) over to ******edly pointless (Five Knuckle Shuffle, anyone?), not to mention weak as a finisher (either of his will fit this category). Besides, sitting their looking constipated while applying a lousy version of a move that actually contains an illegal choke (in WWE standards) isn't exactly something I'd write home about. HBK and Umaga can at least draw clear responses from the crowd when they wish. Cena was barely able to do that in UPW.
And so is Rey Misterio. Or a host of other guys who can draw more consistent pops and better reactions from their matches that Cena could if he paid the crowd off. RVD may be a spot monkey, true. However, how sad is it that he's managed to stay over in the company since day one (with no leeway into Cena's reviled territory) by simply pointing his fingers at himself and doing the spot monkey routine with a watered-down offensive set? Meanwhile, over at Planet Cena the entire WWE marketing machine and booking team is trying their damndest to trick the rest of the WWE fans who aren't buying Cena's Hulkamania 2007 tour...but it still isn't working. Even with a bent-up frame and a receding hairline, HBK still stays over while providing matches on average that are a pale imitation of his glory days...and he still had the crowd on his side DECISIVELY at Wrestlemania...against...yep, you guessed right...Cena. As for Umaga? He's pretty good at taking ass-kickings and I will say that he does a lot with a little considering they gave him a gimmick that was tired when I was in grade school and The Samoan Swat Team revived it. Khali couldn't be carried to a classic match if you had a forklift. I'm sorry, but arguing anything in favor of Khali aside from his circus factor is beyond a moot point.
Hold the phone, there. Even Sly tried hitting me with this crap about Cena "turning the business in WWE around" or something along those lines. There has been no ratings resurgence, and their definitely isn't a renaissance in attendance or crowd reactions. What's sad is that someone would say Cena can draw when he's the top guy in a pretty much unopposed company. The other guys you mentioned were on top with an entirely separate company running neck-and-neck with them...and their respective ratings were still higher than Cena's best. When all is said and done, I (and obviously many others who voted like I did in this poll) will still think he's a shit wrestler, because intelligent evidence isn't there to support anything otherwise.
Then why book him that way? Hell, when a midcarder named Christian outpops you...you suck. When the top heel in HHH outpops you...you suck. When engineered super-villain Kurt Angle outpops you at a moment's notice...you still suck. You could say that anyone involved in any match "contributed." Of course Cena "contributed." He was in it, wasn't he? Notice how Cena's best matches happen to coincide with people who are proven to be good, if not outstanding workers? Wonder why that is? I mean, after all we know Cena was so good he carried JBL to the promise land in a surefire classic at Wrestlemania 21, right? The fact is, if you look back at the respective careers and matches of either HBK or Edge and compare the breadth of it to what Cena is done, you'll see that Cena's aura of greatness falls like a cheap deck of cards. He's been padded by working with the best, which is why his shtick is old and has been for ages. He isn't good enough to elevate someone else to top level because he's not good enough to be there himself. This is why a burnt out Michaels outpopped him cold at WM this year. It's also why Angle was fed to him in a hurry and shipped elsewhere. Same goes for Christian. The fans turned on him in a flash because they realized that beyond his gimmick, he's not much to write home about (and I'm being generous on that). If Vince would've been smart, he'd have turned him heel and stopped swimming the company upstream and instead floated down to success by pushing people the crowd actually liked.
The Brooklyn Brawler could sell plenty of merchandise with the kind of push that Cena's been getting for the last couple of years. He can't even hold the jock of any of the guys you mentioned, and never will be able to. Why? He doesn't have it where it counts. He can't carry a match deep into the end without Michaels holding his hand, the entire time. I was actually looking for an airborne pig to go shooting through the sky during the HBK/Cena encounter on Raw that went an hour. HBK may be a polliticking asshole, but in this respect he works bigger miracles than Mother Teresa.
Whatever the case is, a typical heel champion would at least get the desired reaction from the audience with no discrepancy as to what they actually thought about him. Can't say the same for Cena. As for the second sentence of this bit? Amen. Edge is the man.
Actually, I'd run it more intelligently than it has been in a long time. First thing I'd do? Listen to the reactions. The second I saw the audience want to turn on my top guy, I'd rebuild him as the ultimate heel. I loathe Cena with a passion, but if I was forced to book him, I'd at least have the sense to book him the right way. The last sentence you typed is brilliant. Seriously. I would push that superstar. However, that superstar isn't Cena. There is a reason that with the exception of a couple of tenths a point the Raw ratings have stayed consistent for a better part of this decade. Now I'm no rocket scientist per se...but if plan A isn't netting results within a one-year period that I'm actually looking for...then it's time to move to plan B and push someone else. They had two chances to do this and those chances ran off to TNA sadly.
Shawn Michaels has never been a proven draw, and Triple H hogged the belt for YEARS before Cena got there. And, while he has never really been given a great opportunity, Edge never has been a big draw either *waits for the "But he drew the highest rating for Raw in years" line*.
I find Cena's matches to be as entertaining as anyone on the roster.
So does Cena.
This isn't true. Not all WWE Champions draw, and your sneaking suspicion about HBK is probably wrong. Not to mention that HBK has repeatedly said he does not want the belt, or more importantly, the schedule that comes from having the belt.
Ahh, I have a tag team partner now! We can be like DX vs. The Spirit Squad. There may be more of them, but we'll still win!Wow, it seems that whatever forum I may visit, Slyfox696 is always right there defending Cena.
Summerslam 06 was held in West Newbury, Massachusetts? I did not know that.
How did Shawn carry Cena in the match on Raw?
What stipulation?
You're living through it right now friend.
Then Edge is a terrible wrestler. If the top heel is more popular than any face, then clearly he sucks. Right? Isn't that how people classify Cena. Fact is, for all but a couple nights of their feud, Edge was overwhelmingly booed, and Cena was overwhelmingly cheered.
Cena vs. Umaga is probably the best match in the WWE this year.
My cousin Becca, my friend Courtney, my friend Hayle, my co-worker Cole, my co-worker Lance...how's that?
Again, explain how Shawn carried Cena. Please give me your reasoning.
I hope you are not a gambling man, because this statement is untrue.
I assume then that you feel that Jericho is a bad heel, Christian is a bad heel, Angle is a bad heel, Nash is a bad heel, Hall was a bad heel, Triple H is a bad heel, Carlito is a bad heel, The Rock was a bad face...you know what? I think you get my point.
Really? I never knew that. I know this might be a little much to ask, but could you provide even an OUNCE of proof of what you are saying? Because, strange as this might seem, it kind of seems to me that you are pulling this completely out of the air.
Thank God for that. Danielson as WWE champion would probably put the company under.
Here's what I don't understand. How come people say that Cena sucks because the only good matches he has is gimmick matches, and then praise Edge? Not you individually, but anybody. Does Edge even compete in normal matches? If he does, they generally are average at best. His gimmick matches are superb, but his "normal" matches, outside of his one with Cena at Summerslam, are boring.
Easy. Because Cena is already on their level of superstardom (not Austin, Rock, or Hogan yet). I'm not sure how this can be disputed.
And how come? So people will continue to come back and spend their money. That's what John Cena does. The IWC may not like it, but clearly someone does.
I know, and I missed it! I'm so sad.
Instead of Superman, I prefer to think of it as a Rocky comeback. Because he does show human qualities and does take punishment, but still comes back. Superman usually just kicks ass all the way through.
John Cena can bench press a monster truck. Hurricane can barely bench press a hamburger (that's hamburgler reference for you Rock fans).
And see, this I just don't understand. First of all, if Khali and Umaga are getting hated, they are doing their job. I've often thought that a promotion like ROH should bring in a big lumbering wrestler who noticeably half-asses it in the ring. The heat the guy would generate would be enormous.
I completely disagree. Could you explain why you dislike it?
First, I have NEVER read such a report, so if you could point me to one or two, I would appreciate it. You seem like you generally know what you are talking about, so I'm not doubting you, I would just love to read one, to know how to respond.
As opposed to any other wrestling move which is completely unrealistic? At least I can honestly say a fist being driven into someone's face would hurt and wouldn't require the assistance of another person. Unlike say...The Pedigree? The Stone Cold Stunner?
A choke? How so? Last I checked the Sleeper Hold wasn't a choke. *shrugs*
Except that, for his finisher, Rey's matches have this thing called "logic" and "transition".
Crap? What crap are you talking about? What more proof would you like? Ratings are up, money is up, PPV buys are up, house show attendance is up, merchandising is up, and Cena is generally in the highest rated segment of the night. What else can possibly be done on Cena's end?
Name me a single match that HBK, Flair, RVD, or Triple H has had that has been one of their best matches that have not been with guys who have been proven to be good, if not outstanding, workers. This statement is true of anyone. Your best matches are ALWAYS going to be with workers that are good workers.
Give me a great HBK match from 88-93. Hell, give me a great non-gimmick match of HBK's that didn't include Hall or Bret from 88-96. And, has Edge ever had a memorable match that wasn't a gimmick match?
I'll ask you the same question. Please explain to me how Michaels carried the Raw match.
You mean like when The Rock was getting cheered as the heel champion?
Ok, I'll try and look for it, although not really sure how to find it.
Then why are the Spiderman movies so popular? How come we're still talking about Superman? Why is it Rocky is an American institution? Why is it that the Shawshank Redemption is considered one of the greatest movies ever? Why is it that The Lord of the Rings movie series won 17 Academy Awards combined? How come "The Return of the King" places second all-time in amount of box-office money ever, with Harry Potter: Sorcerer's Stone coming in at number 4, Star Wars Episode 1 at number 5, and The Two Towers at number 6? How come most books still have the good guy over come the bad guy? Good vs. Evil still very much sells.
You mean when he was champ and ratings plummeted as did PPV buys while WCW completely zoomed right past the WWF, and that HBK was so loved that by the time he dropped the belt, people were actually cheering for Sid to win the title? That year?
His jump off the top rope down to the floor with a clubbing forearm to RVD at One Night Stand. His STFU with the ropes on Umaga? Just as an example.
So, HBK magically imparted the knowledge of all these moves and made Cena do them? That's ridiculous. If anyone carried the Raw match, it was Cena.
Incorrect again. It was an Extreme Rules match, just like every other match on the card. For that night, it was not the stipulation, it was the norm.
You really need to reference which part of my posts you are referring to. And, no to all of those.
Better does not equal good. Besides, you just said HBK can carry anyone to a good match. I think he did that with Edge. I've actually never seen the match, but it is clear to me that Edge was carried by HBK.
Funny, I'm pretty certain most of their shows are sell-outs, and that attendance in 2006 was up from 2005.
Am I kidding you about what? The fact that 2006 had more PPV buys, and a higher PPV buy average than 2005? No, I am not kidding you. That is fact.
Match of the Year...says who? By whose standards? And, are you SURE it was better than Hart/Perfect at KOTR '93?
Well you would. But if you look outside WWE, you don't even have to further than TNA to see how poor Cena's matches are in comparison. Joe/Angle or Cena/Khali? I know which I'd choose, perhaps you'd choose differently. It still doesn't change the fact that the further you get away from the WWE, the better wrestling you will usually find. That's sad. But then again, it must be the booking. If Cena was just booked correctly the crowd would just be going "Let's go Cena, all the legends that actually deserve our respect suck!" or something a bit easier on the tongue.
What, like a flying shoulder block or lifting something really heavy? Or perhaps uses the ring ropes to choke out his opponent. Christ, you could tell the Umaga/Cena match was scripted so much it hurt. I've seen more improvisation in an X Division match. Cena has never done anything orginal that actually requires skill, just brute strength.
Hmmm, well, I'm not too sure about this one. I guess we'll never find out if HBK can outdraw Cena. I still say that him being booed at all is a failure to fulfill his duty. OK, maybe it's not his fault, it's - once again - the evil, the sinister, the nefarious, the booking! He's still failing.
I'm not even discussing the fist drop portion of the move. Marty Jannetty and Jerry Lawler can do that part fine. It's Cena's posturing beforehand that is as nauseating to me as The Rock's lovely little elbow shenanigans were back in 1998 and beyond.
And by definition, if Cena's piss-poor rendition of that hold falls in the sleeper category, then I'm Gorilla Monsoon. A sleeper doesn't involve the constriction of the windpipe, only the constriction of the carotid artery, by definition. During a properly applied sleeper hold, the recipient doesn't usually thrust a tongue out and gag.
Yes, because although it entertains me to no end, lucha is the epitome of realism in wrestling. They both live off the highspot. Rey just does his faster these days.
Yes, Sly, crap. Shit, if you prefer. Bullshit to be entirely specific. Yes, this last PPV buy was the worst since 2004, wasn't it? The only moneymaker they have in the bag is Wrestlemania, and that gets by on name alone. This is why the UFC is kicking their ass. On Cena's end? Step aside and let decent talent have the top spot. Like I said to Champ...this damn sure ain't no renaissance. Two tenths of a ratings point is nothing for a company who used to do nearly three points more in business...WITH COMPETITION. Now if we we're talking consistent ratings and profits for a small company like TNA per se, then I'd call it an accomplishment. But we're not...so I won't.
Fair enough. However, at least the other guys can deliver something decent when paired with a stiff. Hell, RVD actually managed to keep the crowd awake a few weeks back and he was wrestling Snitsky. Flair is able to qualify for the senior's menu at Denny's nearly and he can still go with Carlito and get sizable pops...even now. Michaels carried Cena...but we've already gone over that. In the end, though, why do you think the crowd isn't buying what Cena's selling in complete fashion like the previously mentioned names? Maybe because Cena/Khali was crap? Or that even when he won the title for the first time...no one cared as evidenced by the "let's get up and go take a piss" reception from the Staples Center audience? Maybe a large chunk of them agree with what I'm saying? Maybe not, though. Maybe I'm just making all the Cena hate on my own along with the crowd responses and altered audio to cover up the "Cena sucks" chants.
Why from then? Michaels hadn't even been pushed past IC status at that point, but if you'd like to know of some of his matches that I liked from those days? Tatanka, Wrestlemania IX. Jannetty, take your pick. For midcard fare, Michaels did pretty damn good...but it wasn't until he shed his babyfat and upped his game (i.e. established his finisher and the rest of his mannerisms and offensive structure) that he was even pushed to the upper echelon(1995). He was decent in those days 1988-1993...but notice that he wasn't pushed through the roof yet? Maybe one day I'll change my tune on Cena and I'll not become nauseated during the vast majority of his matches...but that shouldn't have to be while he's pushed through the roof. Cena was pushed too soon because his gimmick was over...not because he was ready. Why don't we count the number of five-star matches each guy has held? How 'bout that?
Look at the layout of the match from that Raw and from Wrestlemania. Had Cena EVER done anything alone those lines and with that complexity before in his life? HELL NO. Even with Angle and HHH, he still didn't put on a match of that caliber and length. Michaels had wrestled encounters of that length and quality before with a handful of other workers (including Angle and HHH). Besides, Michaels wasn't the one forgetting to sell a complete shellacking at Wrestlemania, only to "hulk up" was he? No, I thought not. As for the Raw match, that is the one time I was actually okay with watching a Cena match. I'll give credit most times where the intelligence in the ring is displayed...and that will likely never fall in Cena's stead because between those two, Michaels was obviously calling the spots because there were sections of both of those matches that Cena couldn't ever dream of laying out on his own...while Michaels had already been there and done that.
Yes, and in the long run (definitely under the Cena timeframe of two years) they did, in fact, turn Rock face, correct? Thus completing the transition because THAT'S WHAT THE FANS ASKED FOR. Plus, there is a staunch difference between an anti-hero (which was very prevalent during The Rock's era) and a clean-cut babyface that sickens a big chunk of the WWE fanbase. It's not that I'm going to say that Cena never got good pops. Because he did leading up to and right after Wrestlemania 21. However, by the time he had finished feuding with Jericho and Angle showed up, the crowd turned on him (rightfully so because they found out exactly what a lemon he was in the ring against JBL). Under no circumstances during ANY of The Rock's tenure did J.R. have to cover for him on the mic because the fans didn't like him by referring to him as a "controversial" champion of some sidestepping horseshit like that. The Rock's pushes went over the correct way and were received as such. Cena's science experiment push was already stale and rejected by the time the fall of 2005 hit. It's run on fumes ever since.
Please, we're all ears and I welcome the discussion, dude
.Hahaha...I watch TNA all the time. I have a couple of ROH DVDs, as well as a few other indy DVDs. I have a collection of some of the top Puro matches of the 90s. I've been watching wrestling since the late 80s, which includes various other promotions. Spare me this "the further you get away from WWE, the better wrestling you will usually find" garbage. I know professional wrestling, and I've seen more matches than you could possibly know.
You clearly have not read my other posts.
What do you mean we'll never find out? We know. HBK has never been a proven draw. His first reign as champion was a complete disaster. Ratings and buyrates went straight down the toilet and the WWF was subjected to second-tier status. HBK is not a proven draw, unlike Cena who is a proven draw.
Who cares about that? It's for entertainment purposes. It's called "working the crowd".
So, it's Cena's fault his opponent don't know how to sell the move? Show me a picture of Cena's STFU where his arms cross in front of his opponents windpipe, and not around both sides of the neck.
I'm confused. Not really sure what you mean here. The original concept was something about how Rey is better than RVD.
No, it was not. Dismember to December.
Coincidentally (or not) the most bought wrestling PPV ever.
Decent talent like who? HBK? Been there done that...he failed. Benoit? Yeah, 2004 was the worst average Raw rating since the 90s. HHH? Isn't 10 title reigns enough to show that he can't lead the WWE into another boom period? The Undertaker? Doesn't he actually have to wrestle full-time? Randy Orton? Possibly, if the son of a bitch wasn't a loser in his personal life. Rey Mysterio? Yeah, I think we all saw how that reign went. Edge? Pretty certain he has the title now. RVD? They tried that and he pissed it away. CM Punk? Maybe in a couple of years. Mr. Kennedy? Maybe if he could do something competent besides scream his own name. Umaga? Khali?
You should probably actually watch the Wrestlemania 21 match before you make such terribly ignorant statements. The crowd was anything but in the "let's get up and go take a piss" mode. I'm watching the match right now. He ducks the Clothesline From Hell, and gets JBL up in the FU. As he does so, the entire crowd rises to its feet. They then count in unison 1-2-3, and pop big when he wins. He then stands up on the security railing and celebrates with the entire crowd reacting to him when he raises his arms and the belt.
Because it is 3 years more time to work matches than Cena has had in his whole career? And, I liked Tatanka match too. But, are you going to tell me that is better than Cena vs. Edge? Or HHH? Or HBK? Or Umaga? I really hope you don't say yes to that.
Because five-star matches are completely subjective. There is only one recognized authority in the world that I'm aware of on the subject of 5 star matches. And, I think we can both agree his opinion is no less subjective than yours or mine.
Complexity? What complexity? The Raw and Wrestlemania matches were different matches. HBK carried the offense for the majority of the WM match, and Cena carried it for the Raw match. Cena in the Raw match played the role of the guy who tried everything he knew to keep Shawn down but he "won't stay down".
Oh, I see. So, because the match is longer clearly HBK carried him. Wow, and I truly thought I had seen all of the arguments against Cena.
No, but he did completely forget the work Cena did to his back on Raw a couple of times. *shrugs*. And, Cena did not take a "complete shellacking". Like I said to Xfear earlier, the problem was not his no-selling, it was his over-selling of the original shot to the knee. Watch the match again, for the exact moment that they go with the knee story.
I just don't even know what to say to such ridiculous assumptions presented as fact. Cena has been in MANY good matches with many guys. All I can say is that clearly the WWE has a lot more great workers, all of whom carry the champ, then I thought.
And, that's indicative of Cena's abilities how? How is Cena a bad wrestler because the Rock was turned face? I'm not understanding.
Hey, we've been doing this for months. I know I enjoy it, even if this post was a little more edgy. It's three in the morning and I'm tired as can be. Nothing personal.Please, we're all ears and I welcome the discussion, dude
