[Official] John Cena Thread

[Matfan35]

Slyfox,

allow me to address some of your comments...

I'm not sure "sells" is the word your looking for. Selling can mean two things in pro wrestling. One) the making of monetary income. Two) acting as if an opponents offense is hurting you. That is what selling is.

I think the word you are looking for is "lose" or "job" or "put over". They mean entirely different things, but one of those is what you need. I think you probably want "lose"

Wrong, the word I used was the correct one. To "sell" in wrestling indeed has more than one meaning, yet ask any hardcore fan what it means and they will instinctively say it means to "act as if someone is hurting you or affecting you in the ring" and that is what I meant. I also stand by my statement. The man acts like he's invincible, and even though his character may be somewhat like that, it still doesn't excuse his inability to properly convey the idea that being attacked by someone like Umaga or Khali hurts. The guy shrugged off both men's attacks in their title matches like it was a 90-pound weakling attacking him! Gimme a break. That is the definition of "no-selling"!

What are you basing this off of? The moment Hogan won the belt was the loudest that place got at Wrestlemania 9. Hulk Hogan winning the belt had those fans going absolutely bonkers. Now, it was a bad business decision for a couple of reasons, but to say the fans loathed that decision is absolutely ridiculous.

I am basing this off of the fact that fans wanted Bret to carry the "torch" and not Hogan. I was referring, once again, to the "hardcore fan" element, not the mindless set the WWE seems to have in their arenas night after night. Also, WM IX is regarded as the single worst Wrestlemania to date, and that's the same one I referenced where Hogan came from out of nowhere to steal the spotlight. Coincidence? I think not.

*sigh* April of 2005 to January of 2006 is not one full year. Really, are you doing this on purpose?

Yeah, I messed up. I meant to write "for almost a year", my bad. Now, even though I messed up, I take offense to the fact that you're insinuating that I'm an idiot in that statement above. I have never insulted you, and did not do so, in my statements, so please don't insult me. Thank you.

He competed for a main-event title in 9 PPV matches. His record was 5-4. Just a shade over .500. How can anyone say 2006 was Cena winning and no one else?

Ok, did some fact checking, and during the times when Cena held the title, and only those times, his win/loss record was an astounding 87 wins and 25 losses. How does that in any way equal .500? This is where I base my "Cena winning and no one else" on.

None of those guys were worthy of the WWE title

Shawn Michaels is a former multiple WWE and World Champion. To say he was undeserving to win that title is absurd. Was he not physical able to carry a title run, perhaps. Yet, being nonphysically fit, and unworthy are two vastly different things.

I'm just as "hardcore" as you, and from your post I would say I am more knowledgeable than you, at least with regards to Hogan and Cena. I've been watching the WWF/E for nearly 20 years myself, and I can honestly say I am not at all tired of John Cena.

Two things here. One, I have watched wrestling for close to thirty years now, and I've forgotten more than you could possibly know. (That wasn't an insult, just a fact.) Two, you say you're not "tired of John Cena" and that's fine. The thing is, you're most likely, for all intents and purposes, in the minority.

 

[Slyfox696]

Wrong, the word I used was the correct one.

Well, that's unfortunate for you, because it makes your post seem even more ridiculous than it was. At least with one of the words I substituted for you, it was a legitimate argument. And, considering you then went on a diatribe about how Hogan never lost and Cena is the same way, I think it is understandable why I thought you meant different.

To "sell" in wrestling indeed has more than one meaning, yet ask any hardcore fan what it means and they will instinctively say it means to "act as if someone is hurting you or affecting you in the ring" and that is what I meant.

I already said that.

I also stand by my statement. The man acts like he's invincible, and even though his character may be somewhat like that, it still doesn't excuse his inability to properly convey the idea that being attacked by someone like Umaga or Khali hurts. The guy shrugged off both men's attacks in their title matches like it was a 90-pound weakling attacking him! Gimme a break. That is the definition of "no-selling"!

How about some examples? Because at the end of the Umaga LMS match, after Umaga failed to answer the 10 count, Cena simply puts his head down in pure exhaustion, looking as if he's been through a mighty war. When he fights Khali at ONS, his selling of Khali's offense is what made the match watchable, building the story of how could he possibly overcome this terrific beating.

Your no-selling Cena argument is terrible. Cena is one of the best sellers in the WWE. It's realistic, and it makes his opponents look good.

I am basing this off of the fact that fans wanted Bret to carry the "torch" and not Hogan. I was referring, once again, to the "hardcore fan" element, not the mindless set the WWE seems to have in their arenas night after night. Also, WM IX is regarded as the single worst Wrestlemania to date, and that's the same one I referenced where Hogan came from out of nowhere to steal the spotlight. Coincidence? I think not.

While I don't deny that many people consider WM 9 to one of the worst, I personally really enjoy that one. In addition, WM 11, 12, and 13 are much worse than 9 in my opinion. And, you have to explain to me the difference between the "hardcore fan" and the ones that show up in the arena.

Do hardcore fans never show up in the arenas? Do hardcore fans live on their own little island? How are hardcore fans more important than the ones who pay to go to the show? I've never understood this argument that there is a certain type of fan better than another. And, if there is a better type of fan, I would think the ones that pay the money for the show would be the best kind of fan. Not the ones who sit at home and stew because Hart got beat.

I agree that it was not a good business decision. I have no problem with saying that. My point is that to say fans didn't like it is completely unsubstantiated because the people in the arena were going nuts.

Yeah, I messed up. I meant to write "for almost a year", my bad. Now, even though I messed up, I take offense to the fact that you're insinuating that I'm an idiot in that statement above. I have never insulted you, and did not do so, in my statements, so please don't insult me. Thank you.

My apologies if I came off that way. It's just that you had already posted numerous incorrect statements and it's annoying to have some post their opinion when they don't even know have their basic facts right. Makes it pretty hard to take them seriously.

Ok, did some fact checking, and during the times when Cena held the title, and only those times, his win/loss record was an astounding 87 wins and 25 losses. How does that in any way equal .500? This is where I base my "Cena winning and no one else" on.

So, wait. Cena had 112 title matches on PPV? Wow, that's amazing.

First of all, check that record in comparison to HBK's, HHH's, Undertaker, Batista, and Chris Benoit. See how they match up. Second of all, he was the WWE champion. He's not going to lose on Monday Night Raw. If he is going to lose the WWE title, it will be on PPV. His record for PPV matches in 2006 was 5-4. This is a fact. This means that in title matches he was hardly winning and no one else was.

Shawn Michaels is a former multiple WWE and World Champion. To say he was undeserving to win that title is absurd. Was he not physical able to carry a title run, perhaps. Yet, being nonphysically fit, and unworthy are two vastly different things.

Kevin Nash is a former multiple WWE and World Champion. He must be worthy of winning the title too.

The fact is this. Not only did Shawn Michaels have two busted up knees, and not only had he gone on record several times saying HE DOES NOT WANT THE TITLE, HBK has practically been sleepwalking through the last few years, half-assing it in the ring, and sometimes appearing as if he doesn't even care. Since his match with Kurt Angle at WM21, there have been exactly two feuds in which HBK has bothered to show up: Hogan and Cena. The two main event feuds which the spotlight was shining brighter than ever, were the only two times he decided to truly care. And, the Hogan feud he ruined because of his childish antics and complete unprofessionalism.

In addition, HBK has NEVER been a good drawing champion. His first run back in 1996 did nothing but drag the WWE further down into a hole, his second run ended with him forfeiting the title, and his 3rd run was completely overshadowed by the monster known as Steve Austin, which, while certainly understandable, still reflects poorly on HBK.

So, explain to me how he was worthy of taking that title off Cena, taking into consideration those four things.

Two things here. One, I have watched wrestling for close to thirty years now,and I've forgotten more than you could possibly know.

I seriously doubt this. Time and again you've had factual inaccuracies in your posts that I've had to address to correct. Somehow I doubt you've forgotten more than I know.

Two, you say you're not "tired of John Cena" and that's fine. The thing is, you're most likely, for all intents and purposes, in the minority.

Monday Night Raw would tend to disagree with you. You know, where Cena came out to the biggest pop of the night (excluding the HHH theme song)? Fact is that too many people think that opinions on Internet message boards are indicative of the general feeling in the WWE. It simply is untrue. As long as Cena is the biggest draw in the company, which he is, then clearly people are not getting tired of him.

 

[Matfan35]

Slyfox,

Allow me to respond...

How about some examples? Because at the end of the Umaga LMS match, after Umaga failed to answer the 10 count, Cena simply puts his head down in pure exhaustion, looking as if he's been through a mighty war. When he fights Khali at ONS, his selling of Khali's offense is what made the match watchable, building the story of how could he possibly overcome this terrific beating.

I will give you that one. The Umaga LMS match did show him "sell" well. The problem here is that sort of action on Cena's part is very rare, indeed. Look at the man he had with Khali where he FU'd the man off the stage. I mean, come on! The guy outweighs Cena by well over 150 pounds and yet he can somehow pull off that maneuver? Ridiculous. What about that five way dance with Cena winning over five other guys? That stretches the fabric of incredulity to it's limits. That's no better than Hogan and Savage beating seven other men in a triple cage match! That's the definition of "no-selling" in my opinion.

Cena is one of the best sellers in the WWE. It's realistic, and it makes his opponents look good.

I guess we're gonna have to differ on this one, because I personally feel he makes his opponents look horribly bad in his matches.

You have to explain to me the difference between the "hardcore fan" and the ones that show up in the arena.

Certainly. The "hardcore" fan is one who watches WWE and/or TNA for the wrestling alone. The hardcore fan doesn't care about the hoopla or crap that happens in wrestling from time to time, they just want to see a great match. The "fans" who show up in the arena (although not all of them) seem to emit a sense of mindlessness about them, because they seem to accept whatever Vince "feeds" them, no questions asked. Hardcore fans do not accept this so easily. When Vince pushes a mindless simp like Snitsky, we question it, as rightly we should. Most (but not all) WWE fans wouldn't say anything about it, accept boo in their seats.

So, wait. Cena had 112 title matches on PPV? Wow, that's amazing.

You misunderstood. I was stating that the three times Cena has held the title he participated in 112 matches, and that his record was an alarming 82 wins-25 losses. Even if he is the champion, that's unacceptable. No one, and I will say it again, no one likes to see someone win what seems to be 90% of their matches. The hardcore fans especially fall into this category. We (hardcore fans) respect the idea that it may be difficult to beat the champion in a match, but it should never come off as nearly impossible. John Cena, however, seems to have no trouble doing just that. He makes it seems as if he will never lose. I can almost always predict how a match with Cena will end: He wins. It's a given, and personally, that's sad. Matches are not supposed to be entirely predictable, yet with Cena they are.

I remember back in the 80's that I used to predict Hogan matches with my friends, and I was always right. I got it right because i knew that Hogan almost always won his matches. Same goes with Cena.

As far as my "inaccuracies" go, I actually counted each match that Cena was in while he held the title in 2006 and 2007.

The fact is this. Not only did Shawn Michaels have two busted up knees, and not only had he gone on record several times saying HE DOES NOT WANT THE TITLE, HBK has practically been sleepwalking through the last few years, half-assing it in the ring, and sometimes appearing as if he doesn't even care. Since his match with Kurt Angle at WM21, there have been exactly two feuds in which HBK has bothered to show up: Hogan and Cena. The two main event feuds which the spotlight was shining brighter than ever, were the only two times he decided to truly care. And, the Hogan feud he ruined because of his childish antics and complete unprofessionalism.

I am not sure where you've gleamed those facts from, but I believe you to be partially incorrect. Yes, his physical health is definitely not on par with a person who is title material, but again, I say that does not make him unworthy. As for his "conduct", well, Shawn has gone on record several times (in public and on air) stating that he is a Christian, and Christians, for the most part, do not act the way you're stating. Yes, due to his health problems, he may have been "phoning in" some of his matches, but he is no way the "glory hound" you make him out to be. Also, comparing Michaels to Nash is like comparing Kurt Angle to Lex Luger. it simply doesn't work. Nash can barely walk without blowing a quad, and should never set foot in a wrestling ring again. As far as HBK is concerned, I thought that even with his injuries, that he did a more than passable job in the ring. That being said, his five-star matches with Bret, Mankind, HHH, Angle and many others proves to me that he's worthy. I do respect the fact, however, that he voiced his opinion and refused to entertain the notion of another title run. It's his choice, after all.

Monday Night Raw would tend to disagree with you. You know, where Cena came out to the biggest pop of the night (excluding the HHH theme song)

Only problem with that is that the majority of the audience that was cheering for him are women and children. That's a fact. His merchandise is a hot item, no doubt, but the majority of those who buy his stuff are, once again, women and children. This is not the WWE's main demographic. The WWE's main demographic is the adult male between 19-30 (that's en estimate). Thus, the cheers you hear in the arenas on MNR are not coming from the majority, but the minority.

 

[Slyfox696]

Slyfox,

Allow me to respond...

Any time.

What about that five way dance with Cena winning over five other guys? That stretches the fabric of incredulity to it's limits. That's no better than Hogan and Savage beating seven other men in a triple cage match! That's the definition of "no-selling" in my opinion.

Wait, Cena beating 5 guys, and Hogan/Savage beating seven guys is your definition of "no-selling"? Again, you're talking about wins and losses, not selling.

As for Khali, after Cena FU'd Khali, what happened? I mean, I know, because I just watched it the other day. Let's see if you remember.

I guess we're gonna have to differ on this one, because I personally feel he makes his opponents look horribly bad in his matches.

In what way? He sells like someone should. He sells realistically and is not afraid to take a big bump to make an opponent look good. He's taken several bumps to make his opponent look good.

John Cena's selling is one of the best in the WWE, because not only does he make it look real and put over his opponent, he also uses that to draw the fans into the story of the match. His selling goes a long way towards working the crowd. Cena sells very well.

Certainly. The "hardcore" fan is one who watches WWE and/or TNA for the wrestling alone. The hardcore fan doesn't care about the hoopla or crap that happens in wrestling from time to time, they just want to see a great match. The "fans" who show up in the arena (although not all of them) seem to emit a sense of mindlessness about them, because they seem to accept whatever Vince "feeds" them, no questions asked. Hardcore fans do not accept this so easily. When Vince pushes a mindless simp like Snitsky, we question it, as rightly we should. Most (but not all) WWE fans wouldn't say anything about it, accept boo in their seats.

So, let me get this straight. The WWE should try and appeal to the minority of their fans? They should appeal to the "hardcore" fans despite the fact that the majority of their fans are the ones who are paying to see the program?

We should take the opinion of the "hardcore" fans over the opinion of the majority fans? That's ridiculous. If the majority of the fans are drawn to something, then that is what the WWE should go with. And, the fact is, almost ALL the fans in that Las Vegas stadium were going nuts when Hulk Hogan won the title again.

You misunderstood. I was stating that the three times Cena has held the title he participated in 112 matches, and that his record was an alarming 82 wins-25 losses. Even if he is the champion, that's unacceptable. No one, and I will say it again, no one likes to see someone win what seems to be 90% of their matches. The hardcore fans especially fall into this category. We (hardcore fans) respect the idea that it may be difficult to beat the champion in a match, but it should never come off as nearly impossible. John Cena, however, seems to have no trouble doing just that. He makes it seems as if he will never lose. I can almost always predict how a match with Cena will end: He wins. It's a given, and personally, that's sad. Matches are not supposed to be entirely predictable, yet with Cena they are.

No, you just quit reading and comprehending what you wanted to.

I very clearly went on to explain how WWE champions are going to win their matches at house shows, dark matches and on TV. It is the PPV matches that you count for champions, because unless there is an injury or a severe drug problem (RVD) the WWE title is not going to change on free TV. And, on PPV matches, the standard by which you should gauge the champion, John Cena was 5-4.

This is indisputable.

I am not sure where you've gleamed those facts from, but I believe you to be partially incorrect.

Which facts are you referring to. I'll be more than happy to substantiate them with numbers and sources.

Yes, his physical health is definitely not on par with a person who is title material, but again, I say that does not make him unworthy.

It does make him unworthy because you can't have a champion who may get injured in the middle of his reign if you can help it. Look at what has happened to the Smackdown title. Injuries seem to be the norm rather than the exception since 2005 with the WHC. It kills storylines and kills title prestige. And, how long was it after Wrestlemania that HBK had to leave because of injuries? 2 months? He was unworthy to hold the title on physical health alone.

As for his "conduct", well, Shawn has gone on record several times (in public and on air) stating that he is a Christian, and Christians, for the most part, do not act the way you're stating. Yes, due to his health problems, he may have been "phoning in" some of his matches, but he is no way the "glory hound" you make him out to be.

Not saying he is a glory hound. Only saying he decides to show up when he has the most focus on him.

That being said, his five-star matches with Bret, Mankind, HHH, Angle and many others proves to me that he's worthy. I do respect the fact, however, that he voiced his opinion and refused to entertain the notion of another title run. It's his choice, after all.

5 star matches do not make someone worthy of being champion. Making the company the most money is what makes one worthy of being champion. In addition, all of those 5 star matches you named were no less than 2 years ago, and most of them were almost 10 years ago. Fact is, he wasn't doing it at the time of his main-event program, and hadn't SINCE his match with Angle (which was certainly not a 5 star match).

Only problem with that is that the majority of the audience that was cheering for him are women and children. That's a fact.

The majority of the audience that boo him are males in the 16-25 category. That's a fact.

What's your point?

His merchandise is a hot item, no doubt, but the majority of those who buy his stuff are, once again, women and children. This is not the WWE's main demographic. The WWE's main demographic is the adult male between 19-30 (that's en estimate).

Wait wait wait. Who are you to say who the WWE's main demographic is? I mean, let's just use your logic for a second. You say most of who cheer for Cena is women and children. But, they are not the main demographic, so he shouldn't be champion according to you. Well, here's what I know.

The average Raw rating increased in 2005 over 2004, and increased again in 2006 over 2005. The average PPV buyrate in 2006 was greater than 2005, despite the Smackdown PPV buyrates that Cena was not a part of, actually decreasing. Cena is usually the highest rated segment on Raw, and revenue into the WWE has increased the last two years.

So, if Cena only appeals to women and children, and the WWE is on an upward trend, then that must mean that women and children are more important than you 19-30 demographic. Because, when women and children weren't watching, the ratings were lower, and now that Cena is there, the ratings are higher.

In no way, shape, or form, can anyone deny that John Cena is a draw, and one of the top draws. And, in this business, the guys that make the promotion the most money, will always be on top. This is true for every promotion in the history of professional wrestling.

Thus, the cheers you hear in the arenas on MNR are not coming from the majority, but the minority.

This is the most ass backwards way of thinking I believe I have ever encountered.

Your whole logic for this is based on what you believe, not what is reality. The reality is that, at worst, John Cena gets a 50/50 response on Monday nights. Lately, he's been getting the biggest face pops. Cena is cheered by the majority of the audience.

 

[Prax]

]Slyfox,

Allow me to respond...



I will give you that one. The Umaga LMS match did show him "sell" well. The problem here is that sort of action on Cena's part is very rare, indeed. Look at the man he had with Khali where he FU'd the man off the stage. I mean, come on! The guy outweighs Cena by well over 150 pounds and yet he can somehow pull off that maneuver? Ridiculous.

He also FUd the Big Show at Wrestlemania 3 or 4 years ago, so he's established that he can lift bigger man, that he can work with bigger men and that he can beat bigger men. How is FUing Khali unbelievable? I'm sure Cena can lift that much in the gym and more, why can't he lift that much in a match?

What about that five way dance with Cena winning over five other guys? That stretches the fabric of incredulity to it's limits. .

It wasn't 5 guys against Cena, it was 5 guys facing off against each other. And Cena pinned Mick Foley, who's semi-retired. Very incredulous that he can beat a semi-retired author....

Then it's unbelievable that anyone can win any 5 or 6 man match? That doesn't make any sense.

That's no better than Hogan and Savage beating seven other men in a triple cage match! That's the definition of "no-selling" in my opinion

The definition of no selling is hitting a move that you've proven you can hit on bigger guys (guys as big or bigger than Khali even), or winning a 5-man title match by pinning a retired fat guy? Where's the logic in that?

I guess we're gonna have to differ on this one, because I personally feel he makes his opponents look horribly bad in his matches.

You just said he had a good match with Umaga. Umaga's talented and has some skill but he's no where near a great worker and doesn't possess the ability to make others look good in their matches. Plus you said he sold well in that match. He made Umaga look good in the LMS match.

Khali had arguably his best two matches vs. Cena. That's not saying much, but it should certainly be a testament to Cena for being able to put something watchable together with him.

He didn't make Shawn Michaels looks bad in their hour long match.

How did he make the people in his Vengeance match look bad? he pinned the one guy who could afford to be pinned, leaving everyone else looking good by not having actually lost the match.

Certainly. The "hardcore" fan is one who watches WWE and/or TNA for the wrestling alone.

Who are you to judge that? I watch wrestling because I enjoy the wrestling obviously, but i also watch it to be entertained. And promos, gimmick matches, etc etc. And I consider myself a hardcore fan.

A hardcore fan is someone who watches wrestling at every chance he gets, no matter what. Not someone who only watches when a good match is on. A Hardcore wrestling fan is a guy like Y 2 Jake, a guy that owned thousands of wrestling DVDs, and buys every DVD that comes out no matter the quality.

A hardcore wrestling fan is someone who enjoys every aspect of wrestling (because professional wrestling has been defined by storylines on top of wrestling for the last 30 plus years).

Obviously a hardcore wrestling fan is allowed to dislike what he sees, but someone who only watches wrestling for the matches should go watch the Olympics.

A Hardcore wrestling fan is someone who actually buys tickets to the show when it comes to town and tries to go to as many wrestling shows to the best of his ability.

The hardcore fan doesn't care about the hoopla or crap that happens in wrestling from time to time, they just want to see a great match. The "fans" who show up in the arena (although not all of them) seem to emit a sense of mindlessness about them, because they seem to accept whatever Vince "feeds" them, no questions asked.

Regardless of the fact that this isn't true, how are mindless fans not hardcore fans? They follow the product no matter what. That's hardcore. That's loyalty.

So basically by saying this, you're saying that ECW fans are mindless fans that aren't hardcore fans. They went to ECW shows to see people get hit with chairs, go through flaming barbed wire tables and have their faces mashed with cheese graters. I respect those fans just as much as the fans of old school NWA wrestling, but by your definition ECW fans aren't hardcore fans.

As for the mindlessness comment, that's ridiculous. Just because the fans that go to shows like things that are different than your tastes, they're mindless? A lot of the fans that go to shows actually want to see John Cena, and I see nothing wrong with that.

Hardcore fans do not accept this so easily.

You're thinking of smarks, not hardcore fans.

[When Vince pushes a mindless simp like Snitsky, we question it, as rightly we should. Most (but not all) WWE fans wouldn't say anything about it, accept boo in their seats.

I don't question Snitsky. He's a mid-level talent who's not completely horrible in the ring who's filling the monster heel role. He's being bred slowly to receive a couple main event matches, and I don't see why he doesn't deserve it. He's loyal, he knows how to work, he can play off the crowd VERY well and he's over, he's enthusiastic about his role. And it's not like they're going to put the title on him unless something drastic happens like with Edge this past week.

Why are you questioning Snitsky's push? He's a role filler who takes up 3 or less minutes of RAW time a week.

You misunderstood. I was stating that the three times Cena has held the title he participated in 112 matches, and that his record was an alarming 82 wins-25 losses. Even if he is the champion, that's unacceptable.

Why is pushing your champion, who's the face of your company and, needless to say, the guy holding the title, the guy you're supposed to make look strong, "unacceptable"? I would imagine that it would be unacceptable for him to lose to higher-mid-card talent he faces on RAW every week. Why push him to look weak? That doesn't make any sense.

No one, and I will say it again, no one likes to see someone win what seems to be 90% of their matches.

Did you do your own math? 82/112 is 73%. Cena doesn't win 90% of his matches.

And I would hope my champion had a winning record, wouldn't you? What kind of champion has a losing record? That would be UNACCEPTABLE.

The hardcore fans especially fall into this category. We (hardcore fans) respect the idea that it may be difficult to beat the champion in a match, but it should never come off as nearly impossible. John Cena, however, seems to have no trouble doing just that. He makes it seems as if he will never lose. I can almost always predict how a match with Cena will end: He wins. It's a given, and personally, that's sad. Matches are not supposed to be entirely predictable, yet with Cena they are.

Yeah it sucks that it's predictable, but what do you say when Shawn Michaels beats him clean on RAW? In an hour-long match no less? Doesn't it feel more special when he does lose?

I remember back in the 80's that I used to predict Hogan matches with my friends, and I was always right. I got it right because i knew that Hogan almost always won his matches. Same goes with Cena.

Are you comparing Hogan from the 80s to Cena? because hulkamania was the most popular entity in the history of sports entertainment and created loads of new fans, win, lose or draw, mostly win.

You can't make that analogy without slandering most of what Hogan did in the 80s, or conversely without saying that Cena is doing now what Hogan did in 80s. Which will it be?

As far as my "inaccuracies" go, I actually counted each match that Cena was in while he held the title in 2006 and 2007.

That's too general though. Did you count separately the matches where Cena was facing someone from the mid-card status, where it would be UNACCEPTABLE for him to lose? Did you count tag team matches? It's not black and white like that. Main event pay-per-view matches seem to me like they are much more accurate in such a situation.

I am not sure where you've gleamed those facts from, but I believe you to be partially incorrect. Yes, his physical health is definitely not on par with a person who is title material, but again, I say that does not make him unworthy As for his "conduct", well, Shawn has gone on record several times (in public and on air) stating that he is a Christian, and Christians, for the most part, do not act the way you're stating. Yes, due to his health problems, he may have been "phoning in" some of his matches, but he is no way the "glory hound" you make him out to be. Also, comparing Michaels to Nash is like comparing Kurt Angle to Lex Luger. it simply doesn't work. Nash can barely walk without blowing a quad, and should never set foot in a wrestling ring again. As far as HBK is concerned, I thought that even with his injuries, that he did a more than passable job in the ring. That being said, his five-star matches with Bret, Mankind, HHH, Angle and many others proves to me that he's worthy. I do respect the fact, however, that he voiced his opinion and refused to entertain the notion of another title run. It's his choice, after all.

The Michaels talk seems to have been done to death in here so I won't chime in other than re-iterating what Slyfox said, that he's not title material, basically because he doesn't want to be, because he can't carry a company on a full time main event schedule, and because he's 42 and on the downside of his career. That's not what WWE needs in a champion right now. He already got his courtesy run as champ.

Only problem with that is that the majority of the audience that was cheering for him are women and children. That's a fact. His merchandise is a hot item, no doubt, but the majority of those who buy his stuff are, once again, women and children. This is not the WWE's main demographic. The WWE's main demographic is the adult male between 19-30 (that's en estimate). Thus, the cheers you hear in the arenas on MNR are not coming from the majority, but the minority.

You can't say that with any sort of certainty, not in the slightest. You have no facts to back that up, other than the fact that half the arena cheers for him (which is a majority just in case you didn't notice, whether they be women and children or not) and that his merchandise is usually hot stuff.

How can you say that the majority of people hate Cena? Because it's on the internet? Because it's mostly the case among the IWC?

I hate to break it to you buddy, but the IWC is a minority in the wrestling community.

 

[Mcnamara_lee]

at least 99% of the roster have a limited moveset (not becouse of there wrestleing but becouse of the wwe)

no dis-respect to the taker hes my favourite but as of late his matches have gone: focus on arm, old school, failed lastride attempt, clokeslam and tombstone, end! they'll throw in the running ddt from time to time

kane has the top rope clothsline, sidewalk slam, and chokeslam

batista does nothing but spear spinebuster, batista bomb,

and everyone else is the same, except for the smaller guys who'll have some back and forth wrestleing but the turining points will always be the same

they'll each be givein 2 top rope moves no more, i saw a match between matt and jeff where matt put jeff in a bin and did a moonsault! so much better than the same old leg drop everytime!!

you watch wwe wrestlers when they where in ecw or wcw they used moves they just wouldnt now,shame but i'll always follow wwe

 

[Shocky]

First of all, where are we getting the wrestling winning and losing percentages, this looks like a kick ass website. Secondly, I'm doing a statistics sheet based upon guys in matchups, title matches, win's, losses and main events, and I hope to have the first six months of 2007 up shortly, but here is up to maybe a week or so after Backlash this year.

John Cena has 76 points, which is about 8 points higher then, surprisingly enough, Jeff Hardy, who is having the second best year of anyone in the business right now.

For all of those that think it is unbelievable to lift Khali, it is. Remember, Hogan pulled a muscle in his back in the iconic image of him slamming Andre. Remember December to Dismember, well if you're like most people, you don't, but Lashley couldn't pick the Big Show up to save his life. John Cena gets to do these amazing moves because he is one of two people I know, him and Brock Lesnar, that can do the moves. Cena isn't exactly doing it easily either, you can see he is struggling, which makes the move more believable. Watch his legs, they quiver. He gets to do these moves because no one else can. Would anyone be complaining if it was Brock Lesnar F-5ing Khali??? If you don't complain when Lesnar does it, but you do when Cena does, then you are indeed, a hypocrite.

Like most conversations go, peoples problems probably aren't with John Cena when you think about it. Is it John Cena's fault he wins over Khali, no, it's the bookers that book it that way. I understand when people get upset that Khali pins the Undertaker with one foot, but the next year he is tapping out. It is ridiculous and borderline unbelievable, but this is not John Cena's fault people. Blame the bookers, not the character. They've done the same thing recently with Kane passing out to the dreaded "Bear Hug" ew bear hug, but now people are supposed to take him seriously in a title Match? It's the booking, and I can't stress it enough. Your problems are with WWE Creative, not with John Cena, cut the man a break.

 

[Mcnamara_lee]

brock did the f5 to the big show and he was a hell of a lot bigger than cena! he was easily the strongest in the wwe in recent memory, if cena can do it, lashley, kane, taker could probably all fu khali, but its not in there moveset! but it is bad to see everyone fall to khali in a normal match within 3 minutes, and then have cena kick his ass! but i agree khali beating taker so quick does show they have weakend khali

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yea, scripted match results prove everything! Well, obviously, I'm being sarcastic. They mean nothing. Although I believe the Undertaker is a better wrestler in all aspects that Cena, I think the fact that he beat the Great Khali first is completely irrelevant to any mature, reasoned debate.

 

[Gordon]

Yes many people hate Cena and people might be getting sick of him being the WWE Champion, but main reasons he is champ is beacuse He gets the crowd excited, the has the catchprases.. "you Cant See me" and "you want some, come get some" and most famously "The Champ is Still Here"...

Another reason fans like him is beacuse hes the kind of wrestler who has ruthless agression and never backs down which i applaud the WWE for giving him that character. Also his signature moves are brilliant..

SO yes folks..... The Champ is STILL here!

 

[SSJPhenom]

No the fact that Undertaker beat Khali first is not irrelavent to this debate. It shows that Cena isn't GOD. Like he is portrayed on Raw!

 

[Kourtney_Game]

wow u guys are pretty sensible, But as far as cena goes, theres no hope for him, he's a terrible wrestler back in OVW as the Prototype and hes even worse now, its this character thing that he puts too much on then like u all said same moves all of the time, kind of like rocky, but see the rock would change depending on his opponents, cena doesnt

 

[Kourtney_Game]

First of all, where are we getting the wrestling winning and losing percentages, this looks like a kick ass website. Secondly, I'm doing a statistics sheet based upon guys in matchups, title matches, win's, losses and main events, and I hope to have the first six months of 2007 up shortly, but here is up to maybe a week or so after Backlash this year.

John Cena has 76 points, which is about 8 points higher then, surprisingly enough, Jeff Hardy, who is having the second best year of anyone in the business right now.

For all of those that think it is unbelievable to lift Khali, it is. Remember, Hogan pulled a muscle in his back in the iconic image of him slamming Andre. Remember December to Dismember, well if you're like most people, you don't, but Lashley couldn't pick the Big Show up to save his life. John Cena gets to do these amazing moves because he is one of two people I know, him and Brock Lesnar, that can do the moves. Cena isn't exactly doing it easily either, you can see he is struggling, which makes the move more believable. Watch his legs, they quiver. He gets to do these moves because no one else can. Would anyone be complaining if it was Brock Lesnar F-5ing Khali??? If you don't complain when Lesnar does it, but you do when Cena does, then you are indeed, a hypocrite.

Like most conversations go, peoples problems probably aren't with John Cena when you think about it. Is it John Cena's fault he wins over Khali, no, it's the bookers that book it that way. I understand when people get upset that Khali pins the Undertaker with one foot, but the next year he is tapping out. It is ridiculous and borderline unbelievable, but this is not John Cena's fault people. Blame the bookers, not the character. They've done the same thing recently with Kane passing out to the dreaded "Bear Hug" ew bear hug, but now people are supposed to take him seriously in a title Match? It's the booking, and I can't stress it enough. Your problems are with WWE Creative, not with John Cena, cut the man a break.

Listen honey, you're right its not his fault, but hes constantly getting pushed in our faces. He is the one we have to see week in and week out. secondly, we do not know the writers and so fourth ans the fact is, when austin became champ, did u hear people saying thank you dear god that the bookers made austin champ..hell no my dear, u hear people saying hell yeah stone cold beat the rock for the title, why try to blame the bookers with something that we dont like, no ones congrats them over something we do like. its true.

 

[Mexican Geek]

Listen honey, you're right its not his fault, but hes constantly getting pushed in our faces. He is the one we have to see week in and week out. secondly, we do not know the writers and so fourth ans the fact is, when austin became champ, did u hear people saying thank you dear god that the bookers made austin champ..hell no my dear, u hear people saying hell yeah stone cold beat the rock for the title, why try to blame the bookers with something that we dont like, no ones congrats them over something we do like. its true.

Shocky, you little Casanova!! LOL!



I think this have to be with the very same purpose of WWE Wrestling: Good quality Entertainment.
And i'm not talking about the title reign itself, but the fact that fans of all ages BELIEVE what they are seeing. For me, thats the ultimate purpose of all this.
If we couldn't give a shit about Cena reigning for almost a year, i bet you that WWE would strip Cena in a snap. But that's not happening due the fact that Cena is a good ENTERTAINER, that's right, nothing to do with being a good wrestler.
Same thing happened numerous occasions, hogan as champ was great, despite Hogan is one of the worst Wrestlers ever.... What's happening with the Cruiserweight Division?? Hornswoggle as champ is not because he is the next William Regal, but he is more entertaining than Funaki (Funaki is not that bad though, but lacks of personality, etc..)
We have to accept the fact that John Cena, as a ENTERTAINER, is one good reason to tune in RAW every week, some because the legit like the guy mat skills, psychology and stuff (Sly ), and some because they think that Cena is going to lose the belt to no matter who, at last!
Either way, this is what makes wrestling what it is, fans cheering for the faces, the heels and the endless discussion about Cena, Khali, etc....

 

[Slyfox696]

wow u guys are pretty sensible, But as far as cena goes, theres no hope for him, he's a terrible wrestler back in OVW as the Prototype and hes even worse now, its this character thing that he puts too much on then like u all said same moves all of the time, kind of like rocky, but see the rock would change depending on his opponents, cena doesnt

Listen sweetheart, you should go back and read my posts earlier in this thread. It explains why Cena IS a good wrestler. Go back, read them, and if you have anything you wish to ADD (not repeat) to the conversation, I'll be more than happy to discuss is with you. The fact is John Cena is one of the best workers in the WWE, if not the best.

If we couldn't give a shit about Cena reigning for almost a year, i bet you that WWE would strip Cena in a snap. But that's not happening due the fact that Cena is a good ENTERTAINER, that's right, nothing to do with being a good wrestler.

Ummm, in professional wrestling, the two are pretty interchangeable. A good wrestler will draw, and those who draw are those who entertain. Conversely, those who entertain, draw, and those who draw are good professional wrestlers.

To try and distinguish between the two is a chicken and the egg dilemma.

 

[Freedom 35]

people can say they really hate john cena people always say hes the worst wrestler but if you look at it name 5 wrestlers on the raw roster who are better wrestlers and could be a better champion. i cant think of that many im interested if anyone else can.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Slyfox!

Your earlier posts only show why Cena is a good wrestler in your eyes! He is a good entertainer, nothing more. He is not a good wrestler. A good wrestler is the likes of Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, Taker', Chris Jericho, and on and on. Cena is not on that level of wrestling ability. Grant it, he can out talk everyone of them, but in the ring, each on would make Cena look like an amatuer. If it wasn't scripted for Cena to win, he wouldn't based on his abilities. Now, it is because of you that I do have a new respect for Cena, but you can't say that he is a good wrestler. You can, however, say that he is a great WWE superstar!

 

[Slyfox696]

Slyfox!

Your earlier posts only show why Cena is a good wrestler in your eyes! He is a good entertainer, nothing more. He is not a good wrestler. A good wrestler is the likes of Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, Taker', Chris Jericho, and on and on. Cena is not on that level of wrestling ability. Grant it, he can out talk everyone of them, but in the ring, each on would make Cena look like an amatuer. If it wasn't scripted for Cena to win, he wouldn't based on his abilities. Now, it is because of you that I do have a new respect for Cena, but you can't say that he is a good wrestler. You can, however, say that he is a great WWE superstar!

To be honest, I don't even understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say if it was a real fight Cena wouldn't win?

Professional wrestling is ALL about entertaining, and the best wrestlers are the ones who entertain on a large scale consistent basis, through the art and science of making a good match. John Cena does this as well as anyone in the WWE, and better than most. Pro wrestling is a medium of entertainment. "Real" wrestling is what you see in the NCAA or the Olympics. Pro wrestling is what you see from the WWE, TNA, ROH, NWA, etc.

John Cena is a fantastic professional wrestler.

 

[Da Vinci's Nightmare]

Cena does his job very well. Thats all you can say about him. He is paid to make the WWE a BOAT LOAD of money, and he does. Like him or Loathe him, he is the face of WWE now, look at the Larry King Show(a think it were that) just after the Beniot tradgedy, they took Cena OFF RAW! the champion off the A show and put him on this with Y2J and Brett Hart I think to be the face of WWE. Thats how much of there stock they have put into him.

As a wrestler well, everyone can comment on that with different opinions, but no1 can deny that he is a damn good asset to WWE

 

[Slyfox696]

As a wrestler well, everyone can comment on that with different opinions, but no1 can deny that he is a damn good asset to WWE

I think Cena's match list speaks for itself. Just look at the number of good matches he's had.

John Cena vs.

Undertaker - Vengeance 2003
Kurt Angle - No Mercy 2003
Kurt Angle - No Way Out 2004
JBL - "I Quit" Judgment Day 2005
Jericho vs. Christian - Vengeance 2005
Jericho - Summerslam 2005
HHH - Wrestlemania 22
HHH vs. Edge - Backlash 2006
RVD - One Night Stand 2
Edge - Summerslam 2006
Edge - "TLC" Unforgiven 2006
Edge - "Cage match" Raw after Unforgiven
Umaga - "Last Man Standing" Royal Rumble 2007
Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23
Shawn Michaels - Raw in Milan
Bobby Lashley - Great American Bash 2007
Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007???


Just looking at that impressive list of high quality matches should be more than enough reason to say that John Cena is a hell of a wrestler, who's really come into his own in the last two years. The scary thing is, this guy hasn't even reached his prime yet, in terms of wrestling primes. He's only just turned 30. Know where Steve Austin was at age 30? Jobbing to Jim Duggan in 29 seconds for the US title. Know where Hulk Hogan was at 30? He had JUST won his first WWF title.

Just think of all the great matches John Cena has left in him.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I agree with whoever said it's just why Cena entertains you, Slyfox. To a degree though, as obviously your views are shared by millions of other people. What entertains you obviously does not entertain others. Quite frankly, I don't see a face tactic and wet my pants, but give me a series of rolling German suplexes and I may. That is why Cena simply does not entertain me, and never will. However, I am looking forward to his match against Randy Orton...

 

[Da Vinci's Nightmare]

I think Cena's match list speaks for itself. Just look at the number of good matches he's had.

John Cena vs.

Undertaker - Vengeance 2003
Kurt Angle - No Mercy 2003
Kurt Angle - No Way Out 2004
JBL - "I Quit" Judgment Day 2005
Jericho vs. Christian - Vengeance 2005
Jericho - Summerslam 2005
HHH - Wrestlemania 22
HHH vs. Edge - Backlash 2006
RVD - One Night Stand 2
Edge - Summerslam 2006
Edge - "TLC" Unforgiven 2006
Edge - "Cage match" Raw after Unforgiven
Umaga - "Last Man Standing" Royal Rumble 2007
Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23
Shawn Michaels - Raw in Milan
Bobby Lashley - Great American Bash 2007
Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007???

I am not disputing that Cena has had match's against many great people but in them match's how much of the work load did he use?

In his match against HBK, he got carried the entire way through the match.

But this is just my opinion, there are millions of people who think that Cena is the best thing in wrestling since sliced bread, its just not mine

 

[Slyfox696]

I agree with whoever said it's just why Cena entertains you, Slyfox. To a degree though, as obviously your views are shared by millions of other people. What entertains you obviously does not entertain others. Quite frankly, I don't see a face tactic and wet my pants, but give me a series of rolling German suplexes and I may. That is why Cena simply does not entertain me, and never will. However, I am looking forward to his match against Randy Orton...

Why though? What's the difference? It's just as hard to run a successful "face tactic" as it is to do German suplexes. Why do you use moves as a determinant of entertainment?

I just don't understand that. I mean, if wrestling moves with no story entertain you, then why not just watch a wrestling training video? Or watch videos of individual moves. Like you said, people have different tastes, I just don't understand people who think that moves=entertainment.

And, most people agree with me.

I am not disputing that Cena has had match's against many great people but in them match's how much of the work load did he use?

In his match against HBK, he got carried the entire way through the match.

But this is just my opinion, there are millions of people who think that Cena is the best thing in wrestling since sliced bread, its just not mine

Cena more than carried his fair share of the workload ever since his title run began at Wrestlemania 21. Don't confuse the offensive portion of the match, with carrying the match. John Cena MORE than carries his part of the match, and has carried guys like RVD and Lashley to great matches.

As for his match against HBK, I'm not sure which one you are referring to, but the one on Raw in Milan...if anyone carried that match it was Cena. And, it's generally regarded as the better of the two.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Why though? What's the difference? It's just as hard to run a successful "face tactic" as it is to do German suplexes. Why do you use moves as a determinant of entertainment?

I just don't understand that. I mean, if wrestling moves with no story entertain you, then why not just watch a wrestling training video? Or watch videos of individual moves. Like you said, people have different tastes, I just don't understand people who think that moves=entertainment.

And, most people agree with me.

Well, while I am entertained my watching a montage of individual moves being performed, I'm much more entertained by impressive moves in the context of a well-paced match. Don't ask me to define what that is. because I simply can't. I just know. I'm sure you'll make a point of that. McGuinness/Danielson at Unified entertained me, and that didn't really have any wrestling moves that I haven't seen done before and no more than one real spot. I suppose it's a combination of "good" wrestling and the characters in the match. Yes, I know, I'm sort of contradicting myself, but when I take a liking to a character I really get into his matches and, as I was watching McGuinness/Danielson, I was screaming for McGuinness to kick Danielson's arse. The same occured at WM22 in the Cena/Triple H, but with HHH's name in the place of McGuinness'. For me, the audience is usually a big part of the match as well. Eric Bischoff pointing this out in his *shivers* autobiography. Without the crowd, a match is nothing. I find the average WWE crowd shallow, as they will often chant for (here we go again) the SOS. They typically have no direction of their own. The same goes for most TNA audiences. ROH audiences will often be mixed, and they make their own decisions on who they like. Even at Unified, an event in England, a portion of the crowd can be heard yelling "let's go Dragon!". I'm sorry, but seeing Cena cheered beyond belief for signifying the knuckle shuffle for the 500th time just gets on my nerves. It's like a good band with a smash hit. They just try and reproduce the exact same thing they've done before and they're still cheered but those outside their fanbase just sigh with disbelief. I'm sure you'll probably tear that apart but I feel too lazy to try and tighten my argument up.

 

[Lil Wes]

people can say they really hate john cena people always say hes the worst wrestler but if you look at it name 5 wrestlers on the raw roster who are better wrestlers and could be a better champion. i cant think of that many im interested if anyone else can.

Since nobody wants to answer this I will..This just IMO.. Bash me.


Triple H- Has lost a step and haven't seen much of him as of late but you can go back to his title run around 05-06 and I'd take ANY Triple H match over John Cena's..


Randy Orton- Yeah he crashed a hotel room blah blah. In the ring Orton is good and puts on decent matches better than most of Cena's I'd choose Orton vs Hogan over Cena vs Khali...Orton is the better wrestler IMO and will be a good champion after SS

HBK- Yes he has dropped the ball since SS against Hogan. Still either way I'd choose watching HBK over John Cena. His matches dont give me the same exact thing I have seen the PPV before. HBK still consistently puts on better matches than Johnny Boy

Shelton Benjamin- Remember I am naming better wrestlers. Benjamin is a way better wrestler than Cena. He's not just a spot monkey like Hardy. He also has great mat skills. He and HBK put on a hell of a match back in 05 I believe. Have a look and tell how Superman is better. Shelton put on great matches during his singles run and is very underated

Mr Kennedy- This one you could argue... I always hear, "well Kennedy hasnt had a great match yet" blah blah blah I would still rather sit back and watch a Kennedy match vs Taker and any of his promo's over John Cena's and in my mind Kennedy is a better wrestler and could be great in the future..

I'm sure I could name some more but That's enough..


Now John Cena would make a better champ then all of them (ex Kennedy) because he brings in LOADS of money for Vincey and the company. Crowds love and hate him but that is what is so unique about him as champ. Little Kids look up to him and Smarks despise him. Simple as that. Cena is not even close to being the best wrestler on RAW or WWE but he is the best fit for Champion. But WWE should consider a change because the ratings are tanking and quite frankly im tired of seeing the same bullshit each week. He wins at SS and no more RAW for me. Guaran-damn-tee