[Official] John Cena Thread

[robwylde90]

I'm sorry slyfox but to be honest nobody gives a shit if john cena is a nice guy or not. His charcter is stale, two dimensional and his move set is extremely weak. He pours the same shit down our throats every week and has held the WWE title for an outrageous period of time.If you can't understand why I'm saying this at all then there's really no point arguing with you dude, because you really can't see john cena.

 

[pringle_8642]

look robwylde90 you have to understand that wrestling is not what it used to be people just can't put their bodies through this much hell to give us a great match, i mean look at HBK he's worn out, HHH he can't wrestle like he used to. the new guys are used to money and fashion and all that bullshit so so they don't wanna push themselves so they had to find someone who would and that lead to CENA being champion. in my opinion he's a good wrestler but more of an entertainer.

 

[Downward Spiral]

^^ Putting on a great match doesn't mean that you always put your body on the line. It means that you keep it interesting, and you keep us wanting more. How many people can say that we want to see more Cena matches? HHH and HBK can't wrestle like they used to? Maybe it's the fact that they are around 40 years old, and have been wrestling for many years. Cena, on the other hand, has not been wrestling for as long as them, and I can't see what the hell he would do in the ring that would cause injury. Putting your body on the line every night is not what we ask of Cena. Putting on something we don't call indifferent, is something we want him to do. Do you think Ric Flair put his body on the line every night in the '80's and '90's? No, he didn't, but he is still one of the most respected wrestlers alive today. John Cena is young, and that youth should mean that he can do things that the older guys can't, but the fact is the guy doesn't have the wrestling ability of those veterans he's put ahead of, and never will. It may be that the fact he has been champion for so long is playing on our minds, but I think most have the sense to see a bad wrestler when we do. He can't sell for shit (WM23) and barely does anything worth commending him on, so until he does that, never, ever say that Cena actually pushes himself, because he doesn't. It's laughable that anyone could ever, EVER say that Cena actually puts effort into all of his matches, because repetition, seems to be a trait that suggests far less, and we should all know that. Cena is champion because he brings in the money and the fashion or whatever other bullshit you said, and nothing less. He damn sure isn't working his ass off to please us fans, is he? Just look at the results of the poll in this thread. If he busted his ass like you say he does, they wouldn't be like that. We could tolerate Cena as a US champion, because that's where the young guys prove themselves. But Cena did nothing other than sell merchandise, to suggest that he has the ability to be a champion, and they thrusted him in because he could sell stuff, nothing more. It's sickening, and it's gotten to a point where we are switching out of shows because of Cena.

Yeah, it's not the man's fault that he is pushed as much as he is, but it is his fault that he hasn't bothered to better himself the entire time he has been champion. He got to where he is on his gimmick and popularity, and if a man with talent far less than his rivals can be called the World Wrestling Entertainment Champion, than it doesn't speak much for him or the WWE. It is evident that he feels he has found his comfort zone now, and isn't budging from it (bettering his wrestling ability in this case) and that's what makes it sickening.

So someone winning just about every single match they are in, makes them a good wrestler? You've been brainwashed. How many little kids could seriously compare John Cena, to someone with the deserved title of 'Great wrestler' like Michaels or HHH (even currently) and still say that Cena is better than them?

He's an 'entertainer' because he has a gimmick that is never going to fail with what is now the majority of the audience, kids. Have you noticed the boos he gets? I doubt any little kids would be booing him. No, the boos come from diehard fans who deserve better, and know that. They also are sure that there is far better championship material in the WWE than John Cena. And the fact that Cena has now held his 3rd title for more than 280 days, tells me that the WWE does not give a shit about the diehards. So you can call him an entertainer, but that's the last thing I'm ever going to call him.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm sorry slyfox but to be honest nobody gives a shit if john cena is a nice guy or not.

When you say "nobody" you must not be talking about me and the many many fans who feel the same way. I think what you meant to say is that YOU don't care if John Cena is a nice guy or not. Small difference in words, but important.

His charcter is stale, two dimensional and his move set is extremely weak.

So was Chris Benoit's character, so was Rey Mysterio's, so is Shawn Michaels, Triple H, etc. Hell, Undertaker isn't even 2 dimensional, it's one dimensional. And, his Cena's moveset is fantastic. But perhaps you don't care about psychology or logic in your matches.

He pours the same shit down our throats every week and has held the WWE title for an outrageous period of time.

It's amazing how people can say this but don't connect this fact with the realization that this is because Cena is one of the best in the business. As if you the fan know more about the wrestling business than Vince McMahon.

If you can't understand why I'm saying this at all then there's really no point arguing with you dude, because you really can't see john cena.

I see John Cena for what he is. The problem is I don't think most others do. I mean, look at the various things people say about John Cena. "He needs to turn heel", "he's had the belt too long", "his character is stale"...what about any of that is about JOHN CENA? None. None of that has any impact on his ability. If John Cena would lose the belt, and would turn heel and cut a couple of really good heel promos, then he would probably be the IWC Golden Boy. If he did a couple of flips and maybe a somersault, he'd be the IWC Golden Boy.

The IWC hates the guys who are successful. Have ever since I've been a part of it. Who ever is on top gets bashed mercilessly and who ever isn't "is great and can't believe he's not the champ! OMG~~!." I mean, people were bitching about Austing and Rock during their heyday. People bitched about Hogan in his. HHH was possibly the most hated man in the IWC during his title reign. The IWC seems to hate the ones who are successful. And because John Cena is successful, many try to blind themselves to the fact that the guy is good.

^^ Putting on a great match doesn't mean that you always put your body on the line. It means that you keep it interesting, and you keep us wanting more. How many people can say that we want to see more Cena matches? HHH and HBK can't wrestle like they used to? Maybe it's the fact that they are around 40 years old, and have been wrestling for many years. Cena, on the other hand, has not been wrestling for as long as them, and I can't see what the hell he would do in the ring that would cause injury. Putting your body on the line every night is not what we ask of Cena. Putting on something we don't call indifferent, is something we want him to do. Do you think Ric Flair put his body on the line every night in the '80's and '90's? No, he didn't, but he is still one of the most respected wrestlers alive today. John Cena is young, and that youth should mean that he can do things that the older guys can't, but the fact is the guy doesn't have the wrestling ability of those veterans he's put ahead of, and never will. It may be that the fact he has been champion for so long is playing on our minds, but I think most have the sense to see a bad wrestler when we do. He can't sell for shit (WM23) and barely does anything worth commending him on, so until he does that, never, ever say that Cena actually pushes himself, because he doesn't. It's laughable that anyone could ever, EVER say that Cena actually puts effort into all of his matches, because repetition, seems to be a trait that suggests far less, and we should all know that. Cena is champion because he brings in the money and the fashion or whatever other bullshit you said, and nothing less. He damn sure isn't working his ass off to please us fans, is he? Just look at the results of the poll in this thread. If he busted his ass like you say he does, they wouldn't be like that. We could tolerate Cena as a US champion, because that's where the young guys prove themselves. But Cena did nothing other than sell merchandise, to suggest that he has the ability to be a champion, and they thrusted him in because he could sell stuff, nothing more. It's sickening, and it's gotten to a point where we are switching out of shows because of Cena.

Yeah, it's not the man's fault that he is pushed as much as he is, but it is his fault that he hasn't bothered to better himself the entire time he has been champion. He got to where he is on his gimmick and popularity, and if a man with talent far less than his rivals can be called the World Wrestling Entertainment Champion, than it doesn't speak much for him or the WWE. It is evident that he feels he has found his comfort zone now, and isn't budging from it (bettering his wrestling ability in this case) and that's what makes it sickening.

So someone winning just about every single match they are in, makes them a good wrestler? You've been brainwashed. How many little kids could seriously compare John Cena, to someone with the deserved title of 'Great wrestler' like Michaels or HHH (even currently) and still say that Cena is better than them?

He's an 'entertainer' because he has a gimmick that is never going to fail with what is now the majority of the audience, kids. Have you noticed the boos he gets? I doubt any little kids would be booing him. No, the boos come from diehard fans who deserve better, and know that. They also are sure that there is far better championship material in the WWE than John Cena. And the fact that Cena has now held his 3rd title for more than 280 days, tells me that the WWE does not give a shit about the diehards. So you can call him an entertainer, but that's the last thing I'm ever going to call him.

There is so much in your post here that I want to dissect and disagree with, but I don't have time now. I will get back to it, I promise.

 

[Mexican Geek]

The IWC hates the guys who are successful. Have ever since I've been a part of it. Who ever is on top gets bashed mercilessly and who ever isn't "is great and can't believe he's not the champ! OMG~~!." I mean, people were bitching about Austing and Rock during their heyday. People bitched about Hogan in his. HHH was possibly the most hated man in the IWC during his title reign. The IWC seems to hate the ones who are successful. And because John Cena is successful, many try to blind themselves to the fact that the guy is good.

well sly, i will disagree a little on this part, first:

-The IWC hates the guys who are successful

We "hate" guys who are successful, but in a "WE LOVE TO HATE THEM" way, as the HHH heel character, he was one of the most hated champions ever, but nobody questioned EVER his skills as a wrestler, cant say that of Cena.

And because John Cena is successful, many try to blind themselves to the fact that the guy is good.

I really think Cena could be a great wrestler, because right now he is just a "fair-good" wrestler, and this is not about the 5 moves of doom, match psychology, or who draws more money to the company. In all that, Cena is impressive, i have to admit it, nobody sells more than him(merchandise of course ), and maybe his pre-match psychology is one of the best only below the Rock IMO.
But be honest man, you'v tried to elevate Cena to a inexistent status, John Cena is not near the best right now, that should be Edge IMo, and the fact that he is shoved down our throats like if there is no tomorrow, well, that just interferes with his wrestling development, why? Cena is forced to perform a move set for a determined audience, kids essentially, who see him as a hero or as the greatest athlete ever, but the older ones, 16 and up are getting fucking tired of the same shit, so Cena as a professional is obligated to improve his flaws and grow up as a wrestler.
Im not saying that Cena should be sent to OVW or shit, that would be the stupidest idea ever, in a bussiness point of view.
I want to see him roll without assistance(the belt) and maybe we can watch what Cena is really made of. and i have high hopes on him, but now, i'm sick of Cena.

 

[ACTAFOOL]

man how can some1 even compare cena with undertaker, HBK, HHH?

we all know that every wrestler has their limited moveset, but what makes one better than the other is carrying the match, stone cold didnt even do much moves, but he could carry a match, it was still fun to watch him beating some1 up

HHH, HBK, Undertaker, Rock, Austin, Bret Hart, all of them had their moveset, but could do OTHER things to make a 1 hour match fun to watch

and Cena cant do shit in a match, for him to have a match over 30 mins, he has to get beat up 70% of the fight, so at the end he can do his 5 moves of doom and win, the problem isnt his 5 moves, but thats ALL he does the whole match

also, him being a goody goody for the kids is just really boring, and hes not funny, his jokes suck, hes a champ for the kids, cuz thats where most of the money goes, kids make parents take them to shows, buy toys, buy shirts, and everything else, but hes not even close at being one of the best or even top 10 in the biz...

and the fact that he NEVER loses just makes it worse, but even when he wasnt champ i hated him, so its not cuz hes champ that i dislike the guy, ive never liked cena cuz hes never impressed me, the only match he impressed, actually the only 2 mathces:

1: his TLC with edge, where even then edge had to carry him most of the match, also how come cena never does a hell in a cell, steel cage, or any gimmick match? undertaker has done them all more than 1, i can only remember cena doing like.. 2 he only does singles matches, be it on WM, or anyother PPV, i know its not his fault but... i dont know why WWE doesnt put him in other matches

2: his 1 hour match against HBK, i actually liked that match, but HBK did most of the beating until the end, thought thank god HBK won that match, he deserved it since he carryed him yet again through most of the match

anyway.. thats it.. im tired now lol

 

[Slyfox696]

^^ Putting on a great match doesn't mean that you always put your body on the line. It means that you keep it interesting, and you keep us wanting more. How many people can say that we want to see more Cena matches? HHH and HBK can't wrestle like they used to? Maybe it's the fact that they are around 40 years old, and have been wrestling for many years.

That's the way wrestling has been for a LONG time. Fans can't get enough of the veteran main-eventers and can only take small doses of the newer people. I mean, even Rock matches get bashed.

Cena, on the other hand, has not been wrestling for as long as them, and I can't see what the hell he would do in the ring that would cause injury. Putting your body on the line every night is not what we ask of Cena.

Cena is usually the seller throughout most matches. He's the one taking the beating, the one taking the bumps. The one who runs the offensive portion takes less of a toll on his body, because he's not taking the bumps like Cena does.

He can't sell for shit (WM23)

Cena is one of the better sellers in the WWE. If we are going to say that Cena can't sell for shit because of WM 23, than HBK can't sell for shit because of Summerslam 2005.

It's laughable that anyone could ever, EVER say that Cena actually puts effort into all of his matches, because repetition, seems to be a trait that suggests far less, and we should all know that.

Have you actually seen Cena wrestle? At what point do you look at a Cena match and say "he's not giving me everything he has?" I have never seen that from Cena.

He damn sure isn't working his ass off to please us fans, is he?

Yes, actually he is. He works as hard, if not harder, than anyone on the roster to please fans, whether it be on camera or off. He gives everything in the ring, unlike someone like Shawn Michaels, and every night he tried to put on the best show possible. Just because he isn't doing a bunch of flips or top rope moves doesn't mean he isn't working his ass off.

If he busted his ass like you say he does, they wouldn't be like that.

If you would have held this poll in late 2004, Cena would have an overwhelming number of positive support. But because he's the champion, and a face character, the IWC doesn't like him.

But Cena did nothing other than sell merchandise, to suggest that he has the ability to be a champion, and they thrusted him in because he could sell stuff, nothing more. It's sickening, and it's gotten to a point where we are switching out of shows because of Cena.

Cena makes the WWE money. He brings in increased viewers on Raw and on PPV. That is what a champion is SUPPOSED to do.

Yeah, it's not the man's fault that he is pushed as much as he is, but it is his fault that he hasn't bothered to better himself the entire time he has been champion.

This is just laughable. If you can't look back from 2005 and see how different the guy and character is on your screen, then I'm afraid you are not being totally objective. He has added moves to his moveset, including submissions and top rope moves, he's played heel and face, he's worked mat-based matches and hardcore matches, cage matches and ladder matches, and have done so with great success everywhere. He quit with the Lita jokes, worked serious mic and funny mic and build-up mic. He's been moved from main-event to opener to mid-show constantly.

To say that Cena hasn't improved himself is just a gross misstatement.

He got to where he is on his gimmick and popularity,

I will totally agree with you on this. But, isn't that what makes a main-eventer in pro wrestling? How popular you are? Yeah, thought so.

He's an 'entertainer'

Every pro wrestler worth a damn is an entertainer. The pro wrestling business IS entertainment. HBK is an entertainer. Savage was an entertainer. Benoit was an entertainer. Danielson is an entertainer. Samoa Joe is an entertainer. That's what pro wrestling is.

No, the boos come from diehard fans who deserve better, and know that.

No, the boos come from the male crowd 15-25 who think they understand wrestling on a deeper level than others, when usually they miss the very basic fundamental aspect of pro wrestling.

They also are sure that there is far better championship material in the WWE than John Cena.

They'd be wrong. There is only one or two guys who can lay claim as challenger to Cena's position in the company in terms of the wrestling business. And when you figure the great PR guy Cena is for the company, there really is no one that can touch him.

well sly, i will disagree a little on this part, first:

We "hate" guys who are successful, but in a "WE LOVE TO HATE THEM" way, as the HHH heel character, he was one of the most hated champions ever, but nobody questioned EVER his skills as a wrestler, cant say that of Cena.

You're kidding right? HHH was, and still is, one of the more routine and, in my opinion, boring wrestlers in the WWE. When HHH was champion, he got bashed for everything from ability in ring, ability on mic, hogging titles and hogging tv time. The IWC hates the ones who are successful. That's why so many bash the WWE on a regular basis and sing loud the praises of ROH. That's why "Cena sucks" and Shelton Benjamin is a held back super talent. That's why HBK is a legend now, but in his long title reigns got booed. It's also why, Downward Spiral, that the WWE could not give a damn what the IWC thinks.

But be honest man, you'v tried to elevate Cena to a inexistent status, John Cena is not near the best right now, that should be Edge IMo,

I've put Cena correctly where he belongs. As one of the best in the WWE, who puts on good matches consistently, draws as well or better than everyone else, and a nice guy who works his ass off for the WWE.

And, Edge is completely overrated in terms of singles matches. In gimmick matches he shines like no other, but in terms of classic 1-on-1 matches, Edge is hit or miss, at best.

kids essentially, who see him as a hero or as the greatest athlete ever, but the older ones, 16 and up are getting fucking tired of the same shit,

This statement is ridiculous. Why? Because the same 16 and up people were booing him back in August of 2005, BEFORE they could say they were getting tired of the same stuff. For whatever reason (I think because he's good looking and successful), males 16-25 have thought that they are cool because they boo Cena. It has nothing to do with being tired of the same stuff, or at least it didn't in the beginning.

I want to see him roll without assistance(the belt) and maybe we can watch what Cena is really made of. and i have high hopes on him, but now, i'm sick of Cena.

It won't be long now. My bet is that he probably was originally scheduled to drop it to HHH at Wrestlemania, but HHH got hurt. I just hope that HHH doesn't win the belt off Cena. It would be one of the dumbest decision the WWE could make. Instead of giving HHH the belt, give the clean win AND the rub that comes from it to somebody to push them to main-event status. Maybe Lashley at Summerslam or something.

man how can some1 even compare cena with undertaker, HBK, HHH?

Oh, I think Taker, HBK, and HHH have done enough in their careers to deserve being classified in the same breath as Cena.

HHH, HBK, Undertaker, Rock, Austin, Bret Hart, all of them had their moveset, but could do OTHER things to make a 1 hour match fun to watch

What does a 1 hour match have to do with anything?

and Cena cant do shit in a match, for him to have a match over 30 mins, he has to get beat up 70% of the fight, so at the end he can do his 5 moves of doom and win, the problem isnt his 5 moves, but thats ALL he does the whole match

So did Hogan, and he was terrific. So does HBK now and he's still terrific.

also, him being a goody goody for the kids is just really boring, and hes not funny, his jokes suck, hes a champ for the kids, cuz thats where most of the money goes, kids make parents take them to shows, buy toys, buy shirts, and everything else, but hes not even close at being one of the best or even top 10 in the biz...

Clearly, you don't understand what Professional Wrestling is all about. The best guys in the business are the ones that make money. Always have been, always will be. The ones that make money are the one that draws people to the show. And, if people are consistently being drawn to the show, that must mean that they find the show, and the champion, entertaining. And, thus, if they find the show and champion to be entertaining on a long term, large scale basis, then the Champ is an entertaining champion, and thus, one of the best in the company.

Pro Wrestling 101.

1: his TLC with edge, where even then edge had to carry him most of the match,

Please feel free to share with me how Edge carried him for most of the match. I would love to hear your explanation.

also how come cena never does a hell in a cell, steel cage, or any gimmick match? undertaker has done them all more than 1, i can only remember cena doing like.. 2 he only does singles matches, be it on WM, or anyother PPV, i know its not his fault but... i dont know why WWE doesnt put him in other matches

TLC (vs. Edge), Cage match (on Raw the night after the TLC vs. Edge) I Quit (vs. JBL), Last Man Standing (vs. Umaga), Royal Rumble (2003, 2004, 2005), Elimination Chamber (NYR 06), Suvivor Series match (many years)....how many do you want him to be in?

2: his 1 hour match against HBK, i actually liked that match, but HBK did most of the beating until the end, thought thank god HBK won that match, he deserved it since he carryed him yet again through most of the match

You should probably watch the match first before commenting on it. Cena carried the offensive portion for most of the match on Raw. It was the Wrestlemania match where Michaels carried the offensive portion.

 

[ACTAFOOL]

just because someone draws ppl in doesnt make them the best WRESTLER... we're talking about wrestling skills, im not saying cena is the worst person in the wrestling buisness, im just saying he sucks in ring, just like batista and hogan (y do u keep talking about hogan? no1 ever said he was good, he just has respect for putting wrestling on the map)

cenas matches just arent entertaining... ur telling me u actually like wathing his matches? u think they are good? well i dont.. im not saying the guy has to be a freaking ninja like paul london, but do better moves, lashley for one, has some great power moves, with cenas strength he could easliy do some fun power moves, but for some reason he sticks to that spinning gay thing and shoulder blocks, how can some1 actually like watching that night, after night?

anyway every1 has the right to their opinion, im sure if cena really wanted to, he could step his game up and actually make a match fun, maybe it is vince's fault that hes so limited in the ring, maybe he doesnt want cena to hurt himself trying other moves, i have nothing against younger talents, i like watching MPV, Kennedy, cm punk, burke, nitro, matt, jeff, shelton, carlito, randy orton or any other young guy wreslte, i just dont like cena, if he did at least 1 new move every other match, i could respect him more... but every match of his is like a replay, also since he wins ALL the damn time a match cant be exciting anymore, we all know whats gonna happen...

and ya i did watch the 1 hour match against hbk again (i have it on my pc) and cena still didnt do much...

 

[Slyfox696]

just because someone draws ppl in doesnt make them the best WRESTLER

Then what does? In professional wrestling, what makes someone good?

... we're talking about wrestling skills, im not saying cena is the worst person in the wrestling buisness, im just saying he sucks in ring, just like batista and hogan (y do u keep talking about hogan? no1 ever said he was good, he just has respect for putting wrestling on the map)

Hogan was a terrific wrestler.

ur telling me u actually like wathing his matches? u think they are good?

Yes, as do quite a few people.

and ya i did watch the 1 hour match against hbk again (i have it on my pc) and cena still didnt do much...

Cena ran the offensive portion of that match, building the storyline to the match, even going so far as to saying once on the outside "He won't stay down Mike, he won't stay down!" Fantastic match.

 

[Shen_The_Immortal]

I'm not a fan of his but I don't hate the guy. For one, I'm not all into the hip hop culture so that's a turn off for me there. I'm also a fan of the classic style of wrestling but I don't mind the extreme stuff and powerhouse stuff either from time to time.

Cena's stuff does get too repetitive for me. All his matches are pretty much the same. He gets beat down most of the match and then makes a comeback and wins at the end. If he learned some moves and his matches have more variety he wouldn't be that bad. I respect him for being a nice guy and all but if he can't get it done in the ring then he has no business being champion.

 

[robwylde90]

I'm sorry slyfox but I quit, I give in , I tap out, you are actually trying to tell us that john cena and hulk hogan are better WRESTLERS than HHH, HBK and the undertaker? Like man are you just trying to piss us off ? If you honestly think that, then I couldn't give a shit if you're a 22 year old whatever and if you've been watching wrestling since you where 4 years old , cause to me and definetly a lot of other people , you're the one that doesn't get the idea of what pro wrestling is about . You've claimed that john cena has put on better matches than HBK, you've claimed that Cena has an "excellent finishing move" even though it's one of the most basic and weak looking finishing moves in the buisness today, you've claimed that the only things that make a good pro wrestler are drawing ability and ability to sell merchandise even though these two factors are basically decided by the booking team when they give a huge push to someone like cena. hell you've actually tried to make it seem as if john cena is in a league of his own when it comes to the history of pro wrestling, and really the kicker for me was that you called paul levesque, one of the great wrestlers of all time, in the ring and outside it , a man who has had some of the greatest rivalries in the history of the buisness, BORING TO WATCH. How you can find HHH matches boring and cena matches exciting astounds me. How you can find the repetitive dronings of john cena and his 5 moves of doom exciting, and find the great pschology and in ring work of one hunter hearst helmsley boring simply blows me away. Your actually comparing cena, one of the most half assed , undeserving champions in the history of the industry, to Triple H , a man who has battled back from two career threatening injuries, who has given more to the world of wrestling than john cena ever will. Like guys is it just me , does anyone else not think that slyfox's comments comparing the two are nothing short of outrageous?

 

[ACTAFOOL]

yea, if he wasnt champ i wouldnt mind him at all, i still wouldnt like him or his matches, but i wouldnt hate him (actually i would but not as much), ppl really have so much beef with him because he fights EVERY night, if he fought twice a month we wouldnt mind that much, his matches still would be boring, but we would know we wouldnt have to see it at WM for example

i just dont think he deserves to be champ, he does bring money to the industry, but like batista, his wrestling moveset isnt entertaining, i thought it was WWE (world wrestling entertainment) why is the champ boring?, maybe its because its his gimmick that doesnt impress me =/, i dont know, but he makes wrestling look much more fake than it really is, i guess its because his stuff is so corny lol, i respect cena the person, i just dont respect the wrestler, sure hes better than a hogan in terms of wrestling, but after seeing so many great wrestlers nowdays, i dont see what makes him special...

 

[ACTAFOOL]

I'm sorry slyfox but I quit, I give in , I tap out, you are actually trying to tell us that john cena and hulk hogan are better WRESTLERS than HHH, HBK and the undertaker? Like man are you just trying to piss us off ? If you honestly think that, then I couldn't give a shit if you're a 22 year old whatever and if you've been watching wrestling since you where 4 years old , cause to me and definetly a lot of other people , you're the one that doesn't get the idea of what pro wrestling is about . You've claimed that john cena has put on better matches than HBK, you've claimed that Cena has an "excellent finishing move" even though it's one of the most basic and weak looking finishing moves in the buisness today, you've claimed that the only things that make a good pro wrestler are drawing ability and ability to sell merchandise even though these two factors are basically decided by the booking team when they give a huge push to someone like cena. hell you've actually tried to make it seem as if john cena is in a league of his own when it comes to the history of pro wrestling, and really the kicker for me was that you called paul levesque, one of the great wrestlers of all time, in the ring and outside it , a man who has had some of the greatest rivalries in the history of the buisness, BORING TO WATCH. How you can find HHH matches boring and cena matches exciting astounds me. How you can find the repetitive dronings of john cena and his 5 moves of doom exciting, and find the great pschology and in ring work of one hunter hearst helmsley boring simply blows me away. Your actually comparing cena, one of the most half assed , undeserving champions in the history of the industry, to Triple H , a man who has battled back from two career threatening injuries, who has given more to the world of wrestling than john cena ever will. Like guys is it just me , does anyone else not think that slyfox's comments comparing the two are nothing short of outrageous?

i agree, sorry slyfox, u have the right to ur opinion, but i just cant agree with u, ur only excuse for saying cena is so good is because he brings in money

in other words, if cena didnt sell so much, u wouldnt consider him to be so great, if u base a wrestler on how good he is, just because of how much he sells, than sorry, but i like to base a wrestler on how much he entertains me, if ur honeslty telling me that cena can actually entertain u with his replay matches well then i have to respect ur opinion, even though i disagree... after watching ppl like undertaker, kane, hhh, hbk, chris benoit, dean malenko, bret hart, kurt angle, i cant see cena being more than a mid card...

 

[Slyfox696]

If you honestly think that, then I couldn't give a shit if you're a 22 year old whatever and if you've been watching wrestling since you where 4 years old , cause to me and definetly a lot of other people , you're the one that doesn't get the idea of what pro wrestling is about .

To the contrary, I DO get what it's about. Pro wrestling is all about making money, always has been. EVERY promotion is about that, even ECW and ROH's of the world. They put their belts on the biggest draws. It's Pro Wrestling at its core.

you've claimed that Cena has an "excellent finishing move" even though it's one of the most basic and weak looking finishing moves in the buisness today

If it's so basic how come nobody understands what move the STFU actually is? And, while I shudder to say this because I don't want to base my arguments off such a dispicable act, there are reports that Chris Benoit killed his son with a VERY similar move to the STFU. Like I said, I don't want to make that my argument, but it does kind of boost the credibility and certainly not make it "weak".

you've claimed that the only things that make a good pro wrestler are drawing ability and ability to sell merchandise even though these two factors are basically decided by the booking team when they give a huge push to someone like cena.

This is untrue. Edge has had numerous big pushes and it wasn't until he fucked Matt Hardy's girlfriend and got put in a program with Cena that he finally got over as a main-eventer. Moneymaking and drawing are a HUGE part of being a pro wrestler. And why? Because it shows which guys are the most entertaining wrestlers. And, the most entertaining wrestlers are the best, assuming that their entertainment value comes from solid psychological work, and not random stunt acts.

hell you've actually tried to make it seem as if john cena is in a league of his own when it comes to the history of pro wrestling

You're making things up now. I have never said such a thing. Quit making false statements.

Hogan, Austin and the Rock are the ELITE of pro-wrestling history. And, in that order as well. Hogan is 1, Austin 2, and Rock 3. Everyone else is below. I have NEVER, nor would I ever, put Cena in that category based on what he's accomplished so far.

and really the kicker for me was that you called paul levesque, one of the great wrestlers of all time

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I'm sorry, Triple H is important and he's been good for the company, but one of the best of all time? Not even close. Try actually watching some wrestling before the year 2000. HHH can't hold a candle up to guys like Hogan, Austin, Steamboat, Savage, Hart, Funk, Hansen, etc. Not even close.

and find the great pschology and in ring work of one hunter hearst helmsley boring simply blows me away

Where is this great psychology of HHH? HHH's idea of psychology and storytelling is breathing hard at the 10 minute mark and staggering around like he's been shot. In terms of psychology, HHH ranks in the middle of the pack as far as champions go. He can't touch guys like Hogan or Austin or Savage or Hart. Hell, I'd take HBK any day of the week over HHH.

Triple H , a man who has battled back from two career threatening injuries,

Maybe he should not have taken so many steroids?

who has given more to the world of wrestling than john cena ever will.

This I will agree with. HHH has given fans inside looks at how backstage politics work, how to put on 30 minute segments that accomplish nothing, boring and repetitive angles (seriously, I can't remember the last time HHH was a heel and didn't use a sledgehammer), and how to keep your friends and yourself on top while burying everyone else. Thank you HHH. You're the best.

Like guys is it just me , does anyone else not think that slyfox's comments comparing the two are nothing short of outrageous?

Why are they outrageous? Like I said, I think HHH has at least accomplished enough in his career to be considered alongside Cena. I think HHH has at least earned that respect, regardless of how it was done.

i agree, sorry slyfox, u have the right to ur opinion, but i just cant agree with u, ur only excuse for saying cena is so good is because he brings in money

This isn't true. I've given plenty of examples for other reasons why he is so good. But, I repeat myself all the time, and I've been doing this for almost a year now (defending Cena) so I pick and choose my arguments and decide which one is more necessary. Right now, I think moneymaking is more necessary because I don't think the people that are arguing against me understand that "talent" in pro wrestling is the people who are entertaining and make money on a large scale. That "quality" is a subjective term that there is no real definition for. And, when a guy puts on countless entertaining matches, and makes a lot of money, that makes him a good champion.

 

[ACTAFOOL]

ok i didnt mind u defending cena, but telling me HHH isnt up there with austin is just... wrong.. haha

i mean the guy has been in every type of match, even inferno, where there's been only 3... also dont tell me the guy cant be compared to austin and rock

his last man standing match against rock is a classic, and its one of the best matches of all time

and how can ANY1 forget his 2 out of 3 falls against austin? a match so long, yet they kept it fun all the way till the end, they did pretty much anything u can do to your oppent in that match, and to top it off, when they were tied, a steel cage came down, after they were so tired and beatin they still put up a great match in the steel cage, that match was one of the best in wwf history, true classic, and ur gonna tell me HHH isn all that?? give me a break, this not to metion his other classic against taker in WM17, amazing match, and lets not forget his classicS with HBK... these two have always put on a hell of a match against each other..

and sorry but i havn't been around that long in this forum, so all ive seen from you so far about cena is hes so good because he sells a lot.. i can see why u think cena is so good, from a buissness point of view he is exellent, but u also have to keep in mind that cena only sells so much because of the writing, they make him sell that much, true his mic skills really help, but still he couldnt do it all on his own

from a buissness point of view then i would have to say the hardy's are one of the best in the biz then, since they sell A LOT... dont you think?

 

[Mexican Geek]

I'm sorry slyfox but I quit, I give in , I tap out,

LOL!

BTW, Sly...

And, Edge is completely overrated in terms of singles matches. In gimmick matches he shines like no other, but in terms of classic 1-on-1 matches, Edge is hit or miss, at best.

sorry, but are you out of your mind??? as you listed countless times the "classic" matches involvig Cena (LMS vs Umaga?? please...) i dont have to tell you the number of classic 1-on-1 matches involving Edge, right...?

if they find the show and champion to be entertaining on a long term, large scale basis, then the Champ is an entertaining champion, and thus, one of the best in the company

Just take a look at the ratings...do you think is a sign of quality-entertainment?? Per se, RAW is a boring show most of the times, we know that, but watching Cena overcoming the odds over, and over and over again...i mean, a predictable Champion is not always a entertaining champion, no matter if he is one of the best TALENTS in the company..

dont get me wrong Slyfox, somehow someway you've achieved the impossible: You made me believe on Cena as a future great wrestler, but right now, he is an average-good wrestler, nothing more nothing less. I cant deny all the effort and dedication on the biz, but take this as another example...

But because he's the champion, and a face character, the IWC doesn't like him.

WRONG!! What about Chris Benoit?? either carrying the WHC or even the US belt, he was OVER in all terms, and he was a face also, unless i'm wrong, he didnt talk too much and basically, all the respect he earned as a wrestler was because of his wrestling skills, not because he was a Marine or a great talker. and the IWC Loved him.

 

[robwylde90]

To the contrary, I DO get what it's about. Pro wrestling is all about making money, always has been. EVERY promotion is about that, even ECW and ROH's of the world. They put their belts on the biggest draws. It's Pro Wrestling at its core.

If it's so basic how come nobody understands what move the STFU actually is? And, while I shudder to say this because I don't want to base my arguments off such a dispicable act, there are reports that Chris Benoit killed his son with a VERY similar move to the STFU. Like I said, I don't want to make that my argument, but it does kind of boost the credibility and certainly not make it "weak".

This is untrue. Edge has had numerous big pushes and it wasn't until he fucked Matt Hardy's girlfriend and got put in a program with Cena that he finally got over as a main-eventer. Moneymaking and drawing are a HUGE part of being a pro wrestler. And why? Because it shows which guys are the most entertaining wrestlers. And, the most entertaining wrestlers are the best, assuming that their entertainment value comes from solid psychological work, and not random stunt acts.

You're making things up now. I have never said such a thing. Quit making false statements.

Hogan, Austin and the Rock are the ELITE of pro-wrestling history. And, in that order as well. Hogan is 1, Austin 2, and Rock 3. Everyone else is below. I have NEVER, nor would I ever, put Cena in that category based on what he's accomplished so far.


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. I'm sorry, Triple H is important and he's been good for the company, but one of the best of all time? Not even close. Try actually watching some wrestling before the year 2000. HHH can't hold a candle up to guys like Hogan, Austin, Steamboat, Savage, Hart, Funk, Hansen, etc. Not even close.


Where is this great psychology of HHH? HHH's idea of psychology and storytelling is breathing hard at the 10 minute mark and staggering around like he's been shot. In terms of psychology, HHH ranks in the middle of the pack as far as champions go. He can't touch guys like Hogan or Austin or Savage or Hart. Hell, I'd take HBK any day of the week over HHH.

Maybe he should not have taken so many steroids?

This I will agree with. HHH has given fans inside looks at how backstage politics work, how to put on 30 minute segments that accomplish nothing, boring and repetitive angles (seriously, I can't remember the last time HHH was a heel and didn't use a sledgehammer), and how to keep your friends and yourself on top while burying everyone else. Thank you HHH. You're the best.

Why are they outrageous? Like I said, I think HHH has at least accomplished enough in his career to be considered alongside Cena. I think HHH has at least earned that respect, regardless of how it was done.


This isn't true. I've given plenty of examples for other reasons why he is so good. But, I repeat myself all the time, and I've been doing this for almost a year now (defending Cena) so I pick and choose my arguments and decide which one is more necessary. Right now, I think moneymaking is more necessary because I don't think the people that are arguing against me understand that "talent" in pro wrestling is the people who are entertaining and make money on a large scale. That "quality" is a subjective term that there is no real definition for. And, when a guy puts on countless entertaining matches, and makes a lot of money, that makes him a good champion.

I was actually talking about the FU not the STFU bud , cena doesnt even apply his STF correctly so don't give me that shit. the FU however looks incrdibly weak as its just a generic firemans carry slam.

Triple H's ring pschology has always been solid, the intensity of his feud with HBK in 2002 was simply mind blowing so don't give me this crap that its all about random stunts.

You do realise that triple H's injuries where in no way related to steroid use? I'm not saying hunter has never used steroids but quadricep rips generally aren't caused by steroid use and anyway somehow i think cena himself may have taken a few roids in his time as well bud and if you think he hasn't then you must be blind.

You're claim that cena is the norm and hunter MAY reach that mark is laughable , wiithin 5 years John Cena will be forgotten , nothing more than a dirty blemish on the face of WWE as a champion that was booed so relentlessly that even vince could hear it.

Hluk Hogan the no.1 wrestler of all time? what? he put WWE on the map but his hulking up routine does not make terry bollea a solid wrestler , every wrestling fan appreciates hulk hogan for what hes done for the industry but hes not in the top 100 wrestlers of all time.

 

[X]

I'm gonna say this so that Slyfox doesn't have to, because he already has about 2 million times since coming here.

THE STFU IS A VERSION OF THE STS, NOT AN STF.

REPEAT: THE STFU IS AN STS, NOT AN STF

Thank you for your time.

 

[robwylde90]

No cena applies it like an STS because he fucks it up, the first time he used the manouever i seem to remember jerry lawler saying it was an STF, and im gonna go with a legend like the king on this one, sorry fellas.

 

[X]

No, trust me, it's an STS. If you've ever seen someone do an STS, Cena applies the move correctly and just as it should be applied. King never said anything about it being an STF, it's always been referred to as the STFU. I can understand your confusion, but unless you can find me audio or video of King or JR calling it an STF you are wrong sir. Even if you have footage like that, just look at how he applies the STFU. He applies it correctly for what it is, an STS.

 

[robwylde90]

Dude , J.R says clearly when cena applies it , "Oh my god! an STF! where did cena get that from?" obv because cena had never used the move before and he needed to use a submission to win that match I remember. On that occasion I do remember cena actually applying it correctly as an STF , maybe hes just gotten sloppy or decided that an STS was easier, who knows

 

[Slyfox696]

ok i didnt mind u defending cena, but telling me HHH isnt up there with austin is just... wrong.. haha

Objectively speaking, HHH is no where near Austin. If I were to rank, on a pyramid, different guys on different levels, Hogan, Austin and Rock would be on level 1, Hart, Savage, Flair and a few others would be level 2, and Triple H and John Cena would be on level 3. I prefer Cena to Flair personally, but meh. Objectively speaking, in terms of overall career and accomplishments, he's not there. But, Triple H is very solidly behind those others.

from a buissness point of view then i would have to say the hardy's are one of the best in the biz then, since they sell A LOT... dont you think?

First, the Hardy's don't sell as much as Cena, nor are they as big in the ratings. But, the problem with the Hardys is that they are living off of their success from 8 years ago. Other than having his fiancee cheating on him, what has Matt Hardy done to deserve any kind of success? Solid wrestler? Sure. Great pop? Sure. I have no problem with giving Matt Hardy a push towards the main event to see how it goes, but he's never done anything to really set himself apart from others, in Vince's eyes. And Jeff, while an exponentially better wrestler now than his early years, still struggles with spotty matches, and I don't just mean high risk moves.

sorry, but are you out of your mind??? as you listed countless times the "classic" matches involvig Cena (LMS vs Umaga?? please...) i dont have to tell you the number of classic 1-on-1 matches involving Edge, right...?

I would love for you to. You would be the first. Give me classic one-on-one matches w/o gimmicks. The only one I know is his match at Summerslam 2006. Against John Cena.

Just take a look at the ratings...do you think is a sign of quality-entertainment?? Per se, RAW is a boring show most of the times, we know that, but watching Cena overcoming the odds over, and over and over again...i mean, a predictable Champion is not always a entertaining champion, no matter if he is one of the best TALENTS in the company..

We obviously don't know how 2007 will turn out, but Raw's rating climbed every year since 2004. It improved in 2005 over 04 and improved in 06 over 05.

WRONG!! What about Chris Benoit?? either carrying the WHC or even the US belt, he was OVER in all terms, and he was a face also, unless i'm wrong, he didnt talk too much and basically, all the respect he earned as a wrestler was because of his wrestling skills, not because he was a Marine or a great talker. and the IWC Loved him.

When Chris Benoit was champion people bashed him too. People were still bashing him until the day he died. Now, most of the IWC liked him as US Champion, but if he had been World Champion for a year, people would have turned on him too. I do not doubt this.

You're claim that cena is the norm and hunter MAY reach that mark is laughable , wiithin 5 years John Cena will be forgotten , nothing more than a dirty blemish on the face of WWE as a champion that was booed so relentlessly that even vince could hear it.

That was called tongue-in-cheek. It was my way of telling you that Cena was absolutely in the same class, and to say otherwise was ridiculous.

Hluk Hogan the no.1 wrestler of all time? what? he put WWE on the map but his hulking up routine does not make terry bollea a solid wrestler , every wrestling fan appreciates hulk hogan for what hes done for the industry but hes not in the top 100 wrestlers of all time.

I'm going to guess that you probably started watching wrestling sometime after 1995. Just a guess and not a flame, but I feel reasonably secure in this.

I'm gonna say this so that Slyfox doesn't have to, because he already has about 2 million times since coming here.

THE STFU IS A VERSION OF THE STS, NOT AN STF.

REPEAT: THE STFU IS AN STS, NOT AN STF

Thank you for your time.

Hahahahaha. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Dude , J.R says clearly when cena applies it , "Oh my god! an STF! where did cena get that from?" obv because cena had never used the move before and he needed to use a submission to win that match I remember. On that occasion I do remember cena actually applying it correctly as an STF , maybe hes just gotten sloppy or decided that an STS was easier, who knows

Or maybe, considering the vantage point that JR had in that match to actually see the move, he just messed up and called the more common STF, as opposed to the STS. Or, maybe, Cena actually used an STF in that match. I honestly don't remember. But, the fact is that Cena uses an STS, and has for a LONG time now.

Or maybe you're just making this whole thing up, because Jim Ross wasn't actually calling Raw during the submission match between Cena and Angle on Raw. Jim Ross had been fired on the Homecoming show, and didn't come back until around Backlash 2006. Joey Styles called that match. Yes, I'm going to go with you just making this up.

 

[ACTAFOOL]

well theres no point going on with this discussion, obviously each one has their opinion and looks like no1 is gonna change them lol, so lest just put this all behind us now

i belive cena in terms of wrestling skills is not good at all, unless boring is good

and slyfox thinks hes one of the best WWE has ever had, and that hes just as good as HHH....oh well >.<

 

[robwylde90]

Objectively speaking, HHH is no where near Austin. If I were to rank, on a pyramid, different guys on different levels, Hogan, Austin and Rock would be on level 1, Hart, Savage, Flair and a few others would be level 2, and Triple H and John Cena would be on level 3. I prefer Cena to Flair personally, but meh. Objectively speaking, in terms of overall career and accomplishments, he's not there. But, Triple H is very solidly behind those others.

First, the Hardy's don't sell as much as Cena, nor are they as big in the ratings. But, the problem with the Hardys is that they are living off of their success from 8 years ago. Other than having his fiancee cheating on him, what has Matt Hardy done to deserve any kind of success? Solid wrestler? Sure. Great pop? Sure. I have no problem with giving Matt Hardy a push towards the main event to see how it goes, but he's never done anything to really set himself apart from others, in Vince's eyes. And Jeff, while an exponentially better wrestler now than his early years, still struggles with spotty matches, and I don't just mean high risk moves.

I would love for you to. You would be the first. Give me classic one-on-one matches w/o gimmicks. The only one I know is his match at Summerslam 2006. Against John Cena.


We obviously don't know how 2007 will turn out, but Raw's rating climbed every year since 2004. It improved in 2005 over 04 and improved in 06 over 05.

When Chris Benoit was champion people bashed him too. People were still bashing him until the day he died. Now, most of the IWC liked him as US Champion, but if he had been World Champion for a year, people would have turned on him too. I do not doubt this.

That was called tongue-in-cheek. It was my way of telling you that Cena was absolutely in the same class, and to say otherwise was ridiculous.

I'm going to guess that you probably started watching wrestling sometime after 1995. Just a guess and not a flame, but I feel reasonably secure in this.



Hahahahaha. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Or maybe, considering the vantage point that JR had in that match to actually see the move, he just messed up and called the more common STF, as opposed to the STS. Or, maybe, Cena actually used an STF in that match. I honestly don't remember. But, the fact is that Cena uses an STS, and has for a LONG time now.

Or maybe you're just making this whole thing up, because Jim Ross wasn't actually calling Raw during the submission match between Cena and Angle on Raw. Jim Ross had been fired on the Homecoming show, and didn't come back until around Backlash 2006. Joey Styles called that match. Yes, I'm going to go with you just making this up.

You know slyfox you are in fact correct , I typed j.r. even though I typed Jerry Lawler in my earlier post, Though meaning to say king i said j.r., anyway If we're going to the realms of making things up, Cena didnt actually start using the STFU against kurt angle , it was against chris masters in a triple threat submission match that also included angle, so really I think we're about even buddy. anyway I think we've kinda worn this thread out enough like actafool said.

 

[Slyfox696]

well theres no point going on with this discussion, obviously each one has their opinion and looks like no1 is gonna change them lol, so lest just put this all behind us now

Where's the fun in that? Hey, we may not agree, but that is what makes these boards fun. You're not hurting my feelings at all.

and slyfox thinks hes one of the best WWE has ever had, and that hes just as good as HHH....oh well >.<

He's as good as Triple H, but not one of the best the WWE has ever had.

You know slyfox you are in fact correct , I typed j.r. even though I typed Jerry Lawler in my earlier post, Though meaning to say king i said j.r., anyway If we're going to the realms of making things up, Cena didnt actually start using the STFU against kurt angle , it was against chris masters in a triple threat submission match that also included angle, so really I think we're about even buddy. anyway I think we've kinda worn this thread out enough like actafool said.

I don't ever remember saying that Cena used the STFU for the first time on Angle.