Mickie James-- The best Diva the WWE has ever seen?

[Dagger Dias]

Yes, she does deserve credit for trying. But for now I can't see anything good in her and she would have to show much more for me to believe something like that. So it is just a matter of time before I would start saying somthing like that.

No one thought much of Trish at first either. History can repeat itself through Kelly.

Did you really find Candice that entertaining? I could not help but use the bathroom for all the matches she was in. It was boring ans I do not understand why people actually liked her. She did get a huge push, wich is why I think it seemed interesting. But even then I remember her having less of a cheer then mickie.

Candice got entertaining in 2007, I didn't like her much until then either.It may have had more to do with the fact that I could not STAND Melina and it was Candice who defeated her for the Women's Championship.... and yes, Mickie got louder cheers than Candice even when Candice was champion.

Well, they hadn't drafted in quite some time, so when they finally started again, I got all confused who went where and when.

They do it once a year, usually in summer. Look it up on wikipedia to see who went where, it explains it quite well.

I see, guess this crop of divas have to leave. But they need to bring some that know what they are doing, since you dont want the devision to drop when the big ones leave again.

Exactly but that may take a while for all of them to be gone. The bigger names like Mickie will be there long enough to put over the future of the division (Eve, Kelly, etc)

Well idk about lita's fanbase. They have been quiet. For me it just seems that mickie has a bigger one.

I think many of Lita's fans might have just moved on. Mickie's is still growing though.

I agree. Even though Moolah did a great job paving the way, there was no competition so its not really fair to say that she held the title for so long because she was great. I am not saying she is not, she was really important to the devision, but it was not like she was the best.

Exactly. She was important in the history of women's wrestling but there were no divas back then. Moolah is overrated due to that long reign, and was NOT a diva. I'd say the first women resembling divas were some of the attractive managers during the Hogan era.

And I also agree that trish and lita are one of the best ever. But in my opinion, not the best ever. that goes to mickie james. She has proven to me that she can do anything and everything the past wrestlers did to keep that devision going and has kept me interested in her for all these years! And thanks for the credit, I appreciate it. Give you credit 2 for trying to convince me, but as you can see, I am far away from that!

She has proven it NOW, but like I said in a previous post.... Mickie would have been lost in the shuffle if she was there the whole time Trish was. No one will ever dethrone Trish as the best diva.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

Wait, wasn’t she the heel during that feud? Why would she be getting cheered? As a heel, it would have been her job to try and get the fans to hate her as much as possible, the fact that she received cheers (and she did, several times throughout the course of the feud) meant that she did an awful job at the role she was supposed to play.

I was talking about her true fans. Same thing for lita and trish when they were hell. They would get cheered from the fans also.

The absurdness of this ridiculous comment legitimately made me laugh out loud.
So according to you, Mickie has single handedly carried the women’s division from 2006 up till now… so I’m guessing you’ve never heard of women like Candice Michelle, Melina, Michelle McCool, Beth Phoenix, or Maryse have you?
Post Trish, the best feud Mickie had was against Lita in 2006. From there, the rest of her feuds have always been outshined by someone else: Candice vs Beth (2007), Maryse vs Michelle (2008), and Melina vs Beth (2008)
Post Lita, Mickie’s best match took place at Judgement Day 2008. The success of that match was not only accredited to her, but to two other women as well.
I don’t know where you got it into your head that Mickie is some kind of one woman show, she’s wasn’t then, and she’s still not now.

Yes, I have heard og these woman, but did these woman actually help the division. I think not. With the exception of Beth phoenix and michelle mccool, mickie has done a great job carrying that womans devision by herself all these years. Candice did a horrible job and lots of ppl didnt care anymore. I don't think heels can carry the division since they need support from the faces, but michelle and beth had played a great roll as heels. I have mixed feeling for maryse so no comment. But I think it takes a face to carry the devision, because with only heals, no body cares. And so mickie did a good job.

Vince favors the superstars who are most likely to make him the most money; if Vince isn’t favoring Mickie right now, that means that there are more entering women in the division.
The ability to make the fans care about their matches to the point where they’ll invest their time and money into seeing them is directly connected to a superstars (Mickie James’s) talent.

I don't think so. He never tried to push her in that way for him to know if she would sell. Where are mickie's posters and hats and other mickie stuff... Nothing!. I have heard lots of ppl complain about this and would love to buy mickie stuff. But he just doesnt think it will work. Don't know untill you try.

You weren’t a member when I explained all this a few months ago so I’ll cut you some slack and explain it to you now.

The lack of feuds and storyline in the women’s division is the direct result of two things: the sudden loss of both Trish and Lita, the two biggest draws in women’s wrestling in the past 20 years, and the lack of big stars to fill the gapping voids they left.

With those two gone the division was left on life support (and it still hasn’t completely recovered, and probably won’t for several more years.) Mickie James, despite receiving the rub from both Trish and Lita before they left, proved herself to be no more popular or entertaining than any of the other girls around at that time.

The WWE had to gradually rebuild the division one layer at a time, if Mickie was capable of just filling Lita’s shoes (let alone Trish’s) then the division would have rebuilt itself much faster and by comparison would be much larger and successful today.

The facts that the division never repaired itself any quicker, Mickie rose in prominence and popularity along with several other divas at the same time, and even her best feuds and storylines were all overshadowed by someone else’s work every year tells me two things:

1. Mickie proved herself incapable of filling the voids left by both Trish and Lita

2. Mickie has no more or less popularity today than any of the other ‘big names’ in the division, nor has she over the past 3 years.

This was bad thinking on WWE's part. When mor ethen 1 big person leave, you can't have 1 person carry the devision. It's just bad business. They needed to build not only a good face, but also a good heel. Mickie was the only good face when they left. But there was no one proper for a heel. They didn't build the devision properly for the 2 biggest stars at that time to leave, so the devision crashed. Mickie was there to help build it up, But you can't build a crashed building in a day. It takes time, and yet still it went pretty well with mickie on top. I think mickie does have that popularity. And I dont see what you've been seeing.

The moves wrestlers do are merely extensions of the characters that they play. The moves themselves are not designed to catch and hold the audience’s attention, but rather it’s the story and portrayal they create with the actual match that holds the audiences interest.
Moves are just another type of tool used by a wrestler/ entertainer to put on a match, just like psychology and selling are as well.
Mickie doesn’t need to perform a bunch of moves in order to put on a good match, in fact, the more moves she tries to cram into each spot, the more diluted and less meaningful the match becomes

I don't know what you mean with diluted. But moves in a match make the match happen. And moves build the the wresler as strong or weak. Moves also makes fans more interested. I have seen mickie do many better finishing moves the the ddt. But yet the wwe keeps making her do that move. You can have a much bigger pop if you do a bigger move on any wrestler!

In my opinion, Mickie, along with many of the other divas in the division, have all yet to reach their primes. It’s difficult to say whose the absolute best amongst the post Trish/ Lita generation of divas because so many of them have had mirrored careers and popularity throughout the past few years.

It is true that all the divas still need to reach their prime. I agree.

I’ve already explained the issue over the lack of storylines.

The WWE doesn’t care anymore? How so? I think they’ve done a great job rebuilding the division as a whole. As bad as the division was 3 years ago, they really should have scraped the entire thing.

If they are tyring to rebuild the devision, why do they keep using the same kinda "storyline", they need to mix it up and keep it fresh. Untill now with the mickie and michelle storyline, they have done nothing special in storylines.

You need to understand that the amount of moves a wrestler performs does not equal quality, and that wrestler and entertainer are the same thing.

When someone refers to wrestler and pro wrestling, they really mean actor and entertainment.

You unknowingly proved Trish to not be overrated with your comment

Maby I have unknowingly proves. This discussion has gone for a long time. But me saying she is overrated is because I feel you guys give her much more credit then she deserves. Ofcourse you are allowed to feel that way. It is just a difference of opnion.

The audiences responded so greatly to Trish because of the matches she put on, they weren’t interested in how many moves she could do, but of the emotion generated by the match itself.
They were interested in the story she told through her matches and promos, and it was her ability as a showman that drew the audience’s attention.
Because of her success as a showman, creative booked her additional storyline and angles with led to additional title reigns and screen time with major superstars such as HHH, Jericho, Kane, and The Rock.
Trish was the greatest wrestler/ entertainer the women’s division has ever known, she was so good at her job that she was even able to women that had no clue what they were doing look passable. When the WWE paired her with Lita, a wrestler almost as good as she was, the result was the greatest feud in the history of the division.

Exactly, storylines and promo. The way you can channel emotion into a fued. Things they have done then that they are not doing now! She was entertaining, that is true. But not that I would call her the most entertaining. I found lita and mickie to be much better. But I respect the way you feel. I just still think that Mickie is the best though. She entertains me the most and I will be happy to see her entertain me more.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

No one thought much of Trish at first either. History can repeat itself through Kelly.

We will see. Usually history does not repeat itself so fast. And it would have look likely, wich I am just not seeing.

Candice got entertaining in 2007, I didn't like her much until then either.It may have had more to do with the fact that I could not STAND Melina and it was Candice who defeated her for the Women's Championship.... and yes, Mickie got louder cheers than Candice even when Candice was champion.

I could not stand candice then, even as champ. I don't think she got to do any promos so that didnt build her up much either. And when she wresltes it is the most annoying thing the hear her scream. But besides that she just did not entertain me. But I can understand if you hate someone you would always be happy when someone beats them. Didn't like melina much either

They do it once a year, usually in summer. Look it up on wikipedia to see who went where, it explains it quite well.

Even in 2006/2007? I can't remember them doing it then... hmmmm... My memory is failing me.

Exactly but that may take a while for all of them to be gone. The bigger names like Mickie will be there long enough to put over the future of the division (Eve, Kelly, etc)

I hope they build their wrestling skills well enough by then.

I think many of Lita's fans might have just moved on. Mickie's is still growing though.

That could be the case. And mickie's has been growing. People keep asking her to have a heel turn, but I dont think that will ever happen.

Exactly. She was important in the history of women's wrestling but there were no divas back then. Moolah is overrated due to that long reign, and was NOT a diva. I'd say the first women resembling divas were some of the attractive managers during the Hogan era.

We actually agreed on something

She has proven it NOW, but like I said in a previous post.... Mickie would have been lost in the shuffle if she was there the whole time Trish was. No one will ever dethrone Trish as the best diva.

And as I have explained before, she would not have been lost. She would have kept people that duobted her mouths shut. To bad that we will never find out. Mickie is still the best in my eyes.
Ow BTW: If hostory repeats itself, wouldn't ur sentence "No one will ever dethrone Trish as the best diva" not make sense. Just felt like pointing that out.

 

[Dagger Dias]

We will see. Usually history does not repeat itself so fast. And it would have look likely, wich I am just not seeing.

No, of course not. I'm talking about long term with Kelly. You can't help but draw the parallels of where she is now to Trish's early moments though.

I could not stand candice then, even as champ. I don't think she got to do any promos so that didnt build her up much either. And when she wresltes it is the most annoying thing the hear her scream. But besides that she just did not entertain me. But I can understand if you hate someone you would always be happy when someone beats them. Didn't like melina much either

She got to do some promos, but I agree it was not enough. Every title holder needs to do a lot of promos, not just the world champions.

Even in 2006/2007? I can't remember them doing it then... hmmmm... My memory is failing me.

They have been doing drafts since 2002. They original was done when they needed to cut the roster in half shortly after WWF and WCW merged.

That could be the case. And mickie's has been growing. People keep asking her to have a heel turn, but I dont think that will ever happen.

Actually, it could happen. As soon as they have built up another face to take her spot as the top face. Smackdown doesn't have many face divas though and we certainly don't want Maria to be the top face. Maybe Natalya or Beth could turn face at some point?

And as I have explained before, she would not have been lost. She would have kept people that duobted her mouths shut. To bad that we will never find out. Mickie is still the best in my eyes.

We won't need to because if Mickie was better than Trish she would have revived the divas division(s) by now.

Ow BTW: If hostory repeats itself, wouldn't ur sentence "No one will ever dethrone Trish as the best diva" not make sense. Just felt like pointing that out.

I meant history repeating itself as in Kelly becomes the next one to be as popular as Trish.... but no, I don't even think Kelly in her prime will come close either. Trish is the best ever, end of statement.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

No, of course not. I'm talking about long term with Kelly. You can't help but draw the parallels of where she is now to Trish's early moments though.

Trish had that something extra that kelly does not have... in my eyes anyway. But like I said, time will tell. And if it does happen, then I will give you full credit.

She got to do some promos, but I agree it was not enough. Every title holder needs to do a lot of promos, not just the world champions.

Agreed

They have been doing drafts since 2002. They original was done when they needed to cut the roster in half shortly after WWF and WCW merged.

Guess it's wiki time for me after this comment. My memory is failing me.

Actually, it could happen. As soon as they have built up another face to take her spot as the top face. Smackdown doesn't have many face divas though and we certainly don't want Maria to be the top face. Maybe Natalya or Beth could turn face at some point?

But I don't see anyone that has the possibility to become the top face. Mickie is stuck right there till further notice. AND NO, MARIA SHOULD NOT BE TOP FACE. The nightmares that would come.

We won't need to because if Mickie was better than Trish she would have revived the divas division(s) by now.

And here you think that Trish would revive the division if she was in mickie's shoes???? I don't think so. But we have already discussed this many times and there is no way we will be changeing each others opinions. I think are discussion is coming around in circles now. hmmmmm... don't you feel the same way?

I meant history repeating itself as in Kelly becomes the next one to be as popular as Trish.... but no, I don't even think Kelly in her prime will come close either. Trish is the best ever, end of statement.

Thats what I mean, kelly will not be as great as trish. And so I end this discussion with the statement: Mickie James is the best diva ever!

 

[Dagger Dias]

Trish had that something extra that kelly does not have... in my eyes anyway. But like I said, time will tell. And if it does happen, then I will give you full credit.

That's why it's just a prediction. She's legitimately trying to improve because unlike the "toothpick divas" as you called them, she's beautiful AND she actually wants to succeed in her division.

But I don't see anyone that has the possibility to become the top face. Mickie is stuck right there till further notice. AND NO, MARIA SHOULD NOT BE TOP FACE. The nightmares that would come.

Natalya and Beth would be great faces if WWE would just turn them. Michelle is the perfect top heel diva for Smackdown, Mickie can be a heel too. That way if both Natalya and Beth turned.... the weekly random "4 diva tag team match" that everyone hates so much has suddenly gotten VERY interesting.... that, and Maria would be nowhere near it lol she should stick to interviewing.

And here you think that Trish would revive the division if she was in mickie's shoes???? I don't think so. But we have already discussed this many times and there is no way we will be changeing each others opinions. I think are discussion is coming around in circles now. hmmmmm... don't you feel the same way?

Absolutely. Trish would possibly even have broken her own record of 400+ days as champion if Mickie was not there but Trish had stayed. There is no one in the current group of divas who would stand a chance against her. You'd have to combine the power of Beth Phoenix with the heel character of Michelle, and the popularity of Mickie (which is still lower than Trish) for someone to stand a chance if Trish had stayed. That is yet another reason why Trish is the best diva ever.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

That's why it's just a prediction. She's legitimately trying to improve because unlike the "toothpick divas" as you called them, she's beautiful AND she actually wants to succeed in her division.

Ok, I will give you that, she does try. Let's just see what happens.

Natalya and Beth would be great faces if WWE would just turn them. Michelle is the perfect top heel diva for Smackdown, Mickie can be a heel too. That way if both Natalya and Beth turned.... the weekly random "4 diva tag team match" that everyone hates so much has suddenly gotten VERY interesting.... that, and Maria would be nowhere near it lol she should stick to interviewing.

Why would you think that beth would be a good face? She has failed last time she was trying to turn. And I don't know, it seems hard for her to turn face. It takes time t build a good face. So mickie can not trun heel at this particular moment, nor for a whole year atleast.... I would be surprised if that happened.

Absolutely. Trish would possibly even have broken her own record of 400+ days as champion if Mickie was not there but Trish had stayed. There is no one in the current group of divas who would stand a chance against her. You'd have to combine the power of Beth Phoenix with the heel character of Michelle, and the popularity of Mickie (which is still lower than Trish) for someone to stand a chance if Trish had stayed. That is yet another reason why Trish is the best diva ever.

I don't think so. If trish had stayed, it would have been a longer fued with mickie and trish. And god knows how many time they will continue that fued ( you know how WWE loves to extend great fueds). And even though Trish would have kept the devision in a higher stance with mickie by her side. It would not have been possible with only trish. You would need more then 1 person to carry that devision. Trish is good, true, but mickie has held the devision pretty well... wich I would say makes her better.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Why would you think that beth would be a good face? She has failed last time she was trying to turn. And I don't know, it seems hard for her to turn face. It takes time t build a good face.

Not really, all she would have to do is keep dominating. I can't believe I am about to say this, but it worked for Awesome Kong. (I can't STAND her, but that was the best example I could come up with). Beth would work great as a face. Don't you agree that amazonian women make great heroes?

So mickie can not trun heel at this particular moment, nor for a whole year atleast.... I would be surprised if that happened.

She could do it quite easily, they just have to build up a top face to replace her. Let's use Natalya as an example. Have her start tagging with Mickie for a while and they become friends onscreen. Then have them win for a few weeks, then Mickie turns on Natalya after they lose to Michelle and some other heel. Bam, heel turn for Mickie and Natalya is the new top face.... and it would only take about a month. Only problem is Mickie would be the #2 heel under Michelle, and you'd have to turn Beth too so that Maria won't be the #2 face under Natalya. (assuming this scenario happened.)

I don't think so. If trish had stayed, it would have been a longer fued with mickie and trish. And god knows how many time they will continue that fued ( you know how WWE loves to extend great fueds). And even though Trish would have kept the devision in a higher stance with mickie by her side. It would not have been possible with only trish. You would need more then 1 person to carry that devision. Trish is good, true, but mickie has held the devision pretty well... wich I would say makes her better.

Not exactly. Trish would have dominated for (very likely) another year long reign like the one Mickie ended. She could have had the title long enough for every single other diva to get a chance to step up against her, and she'd defeat all of them.... until someone like Beth or Michelle had been built up enough to stand a chance. I guarantee you Trish would have dominated no matter how long she was there, because she is simply the best ever.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

Not really, all she would have to do is keep dominating. I can't believe I am about to say this, but it worked for Awesome Kong. (I can't STAND her, but that was the best example I could come up with). Beth would work great as a face. Don't you agree that amazonian women make great heroes?

Hahahaha.... amazonian woman make great heroes, I can imagine that..... ok back to reality. Beth Phoenix has been build up all these years as a heel. It is hard for me to imagine her change into a face. Now ofcourse it is possible, but I think that it would have to be something creative and believable for her to change into a face. I guess it could work, but I really can't imagine that.

She could do it quite easily, they just have to build up a top face to replace her. Let's use Natalya as an example. Have her start tagging with Mickie for a while and they become friends onscreen. Then have them win for a few weeks, then Mickie turns on Natalya after they lose to Michelle and some other heel. Bam, heel turn for Mickie and Natalya is the new top face.... and it would only take about a month. Only problem is Mickie would be the #2 heel under Michelle, and you'd have to turn Beth too so that Maria won't be the #2 face under Natalya. (assuming this scenario happened.)

Ok, lets be realistic here. Do you actually think that a short heel to face change would work out? Natalya would need lot's of work and promos to make her a top face. Mickie is the biggest face. It would also need to take some promos and a good storyline to make her a heel. And depending how far they would go with a heel turn with mickie, she could turn into bigger heel then michelle, it all depends how they do it. Ofcourse you can just turn someone. But you need to make it believable. Itherwise Nataly would be a face with heat, and mickie would be a heel with cheers.

Not exactly. Trish would have dominated for (very likely) another year long reign like the one Mickie ended. She could have had the title long enough for every single other diva to get a chance to step up against her, and she'd defeat all of them.... until someone like Beth or Michelle had been built up enough to stand a chance. I guarantee you Trish would have dominated no matter how long she was there, because she is simply the best ever.

I don't think so. They did have mickie have win the title from Trish for a reason. to have a new champ and something new. They would not have given it back to Trish that fast. I think that it would have been an extended fuedbetween the 2 because it was that good. Part of because they were cheering mickie at WM22 was because they were tired of trish as champ... And that does say something!!!!

 

[Dagger Dias]

Hahahaha.... amazonian woman make great heroes, I can imagine that..... ok back to reality. Beth Phoenix has been build up all these years as a heel. It is hard for me to imagine her change into a face. Now ofcourse it is possible, but I think that it would have to be something creative and believable for her to change into a face. I guess it could work, but I really can't imagine that.

Mickie was built as a heel first. I think that every wrestler deserves a run as both a heel and a face, and Beth would make a great face when she gets to turn. She wouldn't have to change much at all. Take the dominant amazon character she already has and add heroic traits to her, she would be over in no time.

Ok, lets be realistic here. Do you actually think that a short heel to face change would work out? Natalya would need lot's of work and promos to make her a top face.

Actually, Natalya was already one of the top divas before she started helping the Hart Dynasty. She faced Michelle in the first ever Diva's Championship match, and was the first feud Michelle has. She's still over from that, and has the potential to turn face and it working out. I see her as a top face someday.

Mickie is the biggest face. It would also need to take some promos and a good storyline to make her a heel. And depending how far they would go with a heel turn with mickie, she could turn into bigger heel then michelle, it all depends how they do it. Ofcourse you can just turn someone. But you need to make it believable. Itherwise Nataly would be a face with heat, and mickie would be a heel with cheers.

It depends on how big of a heel she will be. She could be either a lower ranked heel or just a tweener. Now, if she were to make a full heel turn (like Michelle's) that may take more than a month or two. Doesn't mean it would be hard to pull off. Making Natalya the top face and Mickie a heel (not necessarily the top, because Michelle's great for that) would be easier to do than you think.

I don't think so. They did have mickie have win the title from Trish for a reason. to have a new champ and something new. They would not have given it back to Trish that fast. I think that it would have been an extended fuedbetween the 2 because it was that good.

Yes.... they needed something new, because Trish had beaten virtually everyone. Mickie was someone new when they needed a different champion. She probably would have held it through the summer long enough to do the Lita feud, but then Trish would have won it back from Lita only she wouldn't have retired in this scenario. She then would have very likely had another year long reign, and face the entire divas roster one by one.

Part of because they were cheering mickie at WM22 was because they were tired of trish as champ... And that does say something!!!!

Common misconception. They were happy for Mickie that she had her moment, and were intrigued by the stalker character. Trish was infinitely more popular though. By the time Lita had beaten Mickie, her cheers were dying down quite a bit already. They would never get tired of Trish unless she had weak challengers, they would get sick of THAT, not of her being champion because she's the best ever.

 

[Bernkastel]

I was talking about her true fans. Same thing for lita and trish when they were hell. They would get cheered from the fans also.

True fans? Mickie's true fans will boo her if she's a heel and cheer her if she's a face; to do otherwise would be not only counterproductive to Mickie's character, but counterproductive to the show as well.

Yes, I have heard og these woman, but did these woman actually help the division. I think not. With the exception of Beth phoenix and michelle mccool, mickie has done a great job carrying that womans devision by herself all these years.

Both Beth and Michelle are tops heels, their job isn't to carry matches, it's to elevate the top faces.

Candice did a horrible job and lots of ppl didnt care anymore.

How so? She managed to gain the support of the fans during her matches, and the majority of her matches ended with the fans on their feet. As a face, she accomplished what she was supposed to have done.

I don't think heels can carry the division since they need support from the faces, but michelle and beth had played a great roll as heels.

The heels don't carry the matches, the faces do. Both Michelle and Beth played their roles well, but they would not have succeeded if the talent they were paired with weren't as good as they were.

I have mixed feeling for maryse so no comment. But I think it takes a face to carry the devision, because with only heals, no body cares. And so mickie did a good job.

Maryse is a great heel, one of the few right now who can draw legitimate heel heat, another being Michelle.

You're right, a face does carry the division, but there isn't a top face right now, nor has their been since Trish Stratus was still on the active roster.

Mickie is a good face, but Melina is just as good, and so was Candice when she was still around.

I don't think so. He never tried to push her in that way for him to know if she would sell. Where are mickie's posters and hats and other mickie stuff... Nothing!. I have heard lots of ppl complain about this and would love to buy mickie stuff. But he just doesnt think it will work. Don't know untill you try.

Mickie would never be able to move merchandise like the guys would, if anything she'd probably lose Vince money in the long run.

The only divas that probably sell anything are Kelly, Eve, and Maria, and that's because, according to the collective opinion (meaning not mine or your's but everyone's) of the IWC these three are usually ranked as being the most attractive of the divas.

This was bad thinking on WWE's part. When mor ethen 1 big person leave, you can't have 1 person carry the devision. It's just bad business. They needed to build not only a good face, but also a good heel. Mickie was the only good face when they left.

And do you remember who she feuded with? Melina.The resulting feud, while not terrible, was far from extraordinary or noteworthy.

The other top face at the time, Candice, didn't fare much better until she started feuding with Beth.

Their feud blew the Mickie/ Melina rivalry out of the water. It established Candice as a credible face and champion and Beth as a heel to be feared.

But there was no one proper for a heel.

Melina, whose talents were on the same levels as Mickie's at that time

They didn't build the devision properly for the 2 biggest stars at that time to leave, so the devision crashed.

That would have been impossible, instead they had to recreate the entire division from scratch. If Lita had stuck around through the end of 2007, there is a great chance things would have been different.

Mickie was there to help build it up, But you can't build a crashed building in a day. It takes time, and yet still it went pretty well with mickie on top.

Mickie didn't stay on top for long, she was replaced by Candice for the second half of 2007, and later by Michelle for the latter half of 2008. As of now, Mickie is the top face on Smackdown, but she's not doing any better or worse than Melina, the top face on RAW.

I think mickie does have that popularity. And I dont see what you've been seeing.

you may want to take another look, I've given you plenty of support for my argument

I don't know what you mean with diluted. But moves in a match make the match happen. And moves build the the wresler as strong or weak. Moves also makes fans more interested. I have seen mickie do many better finishing moves the the ddt. But yet the wwe keeps making her do that move. You can have a much bigger pop if you do a bigger move on any wrestler

Again, the moves are merely an extension of a character, they are tools, like psychology and selling, used by a wrestler to recreate a realistic looking fight.

It wouldn't look realistic at all to do a bunch of flips and spins as a primary form of offense to fight off an opponent.

A punch to the face can have just as impact on the audience, if not more, than some weird, out of place move that doesn't fit the character being portrayed at all.

By diluted I mean watered down, a memorable match that connects with the audience is driven by the passion and emotion that comes from the feud itself, not by a bunch of fake moves that a bunch of entertainers use on each other.

Would Macbeth been anymore meaningful if McDuff had used a machine gun instead of an axe to kill MacBeth? Would Romeo and Juliet have been any less of a tragedy if Romeo had sex with Juliet's dead body before killing himself?

What a better way for Mickie to finish telling the story of her match by driving her rival's head into the ground.

If they are tyring to rebuild the devision, why do they keep using the same kinda "storyline", they need to mix it up and keep it fresh.

Creative doesn't use anything for the divas that isn't already being used in the men's division in some form or fashion. On the card the women's division is small scale, they're not going to receive some large scale storyline at this point in time.

Untill now with the mickie and michelle storyline, they have done nothing special in storylines.

I have mixed feelings with that storyline, the last thing a company should do is try to ruin the credibility or reputation of a top face.

But me saying she is overrated is because I feel you guys give her much more credit then she deserves. Ofcourse you are allowed to feel that way. It is just a difference of opnion.

If that's the way you feel then you're fighting an uphill battle. The majority of the IWC tends to think that Trish is the greatest diva of all time.

4 years after retiring and she still receives MASSIVE pops that seemingly rival even the top faces of the guys division.

Exactly, storylines and promo. The way you can channel emotion into a fued. Things they have done then that they are not doing now!

So the Mickie/ Michelle storyline lacks emotion? As does the Melina/ Maryse feud?

You'd have to be a stone not to feel at least some sympathy for Mickie, or irate that Maryse would have such audacity.

She was entertaining, that is true. But not that I would call her the most entertaining. I found mickie to be much better.

That's your opinion and that's fine; I'm not trying to belittle your opinion, but just so you know, you're in the minority with your belief.

I find Kane to be the most entertaining wrestler I've ever seen, but I don't claim him to be the best of all time because I know that he's not.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

I can't stay as late as yesterday commenting back on this debate.... I have early classes tomorrow. Oh holiday vacation, where art thou?

Mickie was built as a heel first. I think that every wrestler deserves a run as both a heel and a face, and Beth would make a great face when she gets to turn. She wouldn't have to change much at all. Take the dominant amazon character she already has and add heroic traits to her, she would be over in no time.

Hmmm. I can actually see that happen. And that does sound easy. But allot of wreslers that came as a dominant face are forgotten fast. She needs ta watch out for that! Although I don't see that happening with beth. I would love to see that happen. Lets see if it actually will.

Actually, Natalya was already one of the top divas before she started helping the Hart Dynasty. She faced Michelle in the first ever Diva's Championship match, and was the first feud Michelle has. She's still over from that, and has the potential to turn face and it working out. I see her as a top face someday.

She is stil over from that????? Have you been listeningto the crowd lately? No? Thats my point. She gets no heat usually... I can't remember her havig heat for a long time. It's virtually quiet. Someon can be a topface depending on how they do that. It all depends if natalya gets a ood storyline to turn.

It depends on how big of a heel she will be. She could be either a lower ranked heel or just a tweener. Now, if she were to make a full heel turn (like Michelle's) that may take more than a month or two. Doesn't mean it would be hard to pull off. Making Natalya the top face and Mickie a heel (not necessarily the top, because Michelle's great for that) would be easier to do than you think.

Making someone the top face is hard. You can't just make someone a face if she needs to be the best face in the devision. t would need to take time and be believable. Now a tweener for mickie would not be a smart Idea, as i thin she will still get the cheers she gets now.She would need a good heel turn. She needs a good hel gimick that would make her heel, otherwise I can;t see her being a heel.

Yes.... they needed something new, because Trish had beaten virtually everyone. Mickie was someone new when they needed a different champion. She probably would have held it through the summer long enough to do the Lita feud, but then Trish would have won it back from Lita only she wouldn't have retired in this scenario. She then would have very likely had another year long reign, and face the entire divas roster one by one.

Do you actually think she would have held it for aanother year? I don't think so. People would be complaining within the next 4 months that she is holding it to long again. I know plenty of ppl that would. Ofcourse the real fans will be happy. But many ppl won't. Idk why you think she would hold it long again. I think we would have seen more of mickie and maby some other divas winning titles as well. It would not have been trish perse.
I think if this was to happen though, and they know that Trish would retire between the next 2 to 3 years, was to make build other proper faces and heels. If they did that, then the devision would not fallen like it did. Beside mickie they would have need alteast one more face for smackdown, and then 2 top heels for each brand.

Common misconception. They were happy for Mickie that she had her moment, and were intrigued by the stalker character. Trish was infinitely more popular though. By the time Lita had beaten Mickie, her cheers were dying down quite a bit already. They would never get tired of Trish unless she had weak challengers, they would get sick of THAT, not of her being champion because she's the best ever.

Her cheers have died down because it was a fast heel to face turn. It took time to get used to that since we knew her as the phsycotic diva at that time. people were still into the mickie trish fued and mickie turning face went to fast. But it did work out in the end, just needed to build mickie as a face more. Like I said. Building faces doesnt happen in a day. It seems like that mickie and trish leaving at the same time caught them by surprise and thy rushed everything together. They needed to build everything more properly but didnt have the time. And still mickie did a pretty good job turning face without the proper buildup. It just took time to make it believable. I was still entertained by her. And I started to see that she might be something special back then. And now my opinion is she is the best!

 

[Dagger Dias]

Hmmm. I can actually see that happen. And that does sound easy. But allot of wreslers that came as a dominant face are forgotten fast. She needs ta watch out for that! Although I don't see that happening with beth. I would love to see that happen. Lets see if it actually will.

I don't think that would happen to Beth because she is really over compared to most of the divas.

She is stil over from that????? Have you been listeningto the crowd lately? No? Thats my point. She gets no heat usually... I can't remember her havig heat for a long time. It's virtually quiet. Someon can be a topface depending on how they do that. It all depends if natalya gets a ood storyline to turn.

Nowhere near as much anymore, but yes. That and being part of the Hart Dynasty. She doesn't get heat because the fans like her and don't want to boo her. The storyline wouldn't be hard to do, they can figure something out.

Making someone the top face is hard. You can't just make someone a face if she needs to be the best face in the devision. t would need to take time and be believable. Now a tweener for mickie would not be a smart Idea, as i thin she will still get the cheers she gets now.She would need a good heel turn. She needs a good hel gimick that would make her heel, otherwise I can;t see her being a heel.

Nah she could just got back to the stalker gimmick and go after Michelle.... Or Beth. That'd be interesting.

Do you actually think she would have held it for aanother year? I don't think so. People would be complaining within the next 4 months that she is holding it to long again. I know plenty of ppl that would. Ofcourse the real fans will be happy. But many ppl won't. Idk why you think she would hold it long again. I think we would have seen more of mickie and maby some other divas winning titles as well. It would not have been trish perse.

They wouldn't be complaining if this happened and Trish had good challengers. They could rotate between legit challengers (Mickie, Beth, Michelle) and "model" divas every other feud. It'd still work and no one would get sick of it.

I think if this was to happen though, and they know that Trish would retire between the next 2 to 3 years, was to make build other proper faces and heels. If they did that, then the devision would not fallen like it did. Beside mickie they would have need alteast one more face for smackdown, and then 2 top heels for each brand.

Yeah but the scenario we are dicsussing is if Trish hadn't retired. If she were still here, then she'd still be champion and still dominate the division since not even Mickie is good enough to replace her.

Her cheers have died down because it was a fast heel to face turn. It took time to get used to that since we knew her as the phsycotic diva at that time. people were still into the mickie trish fued and mickie turning face went to fast. But it did work out in the end, just needed to build mickie as a face more. Like I said. Building faces doesnt happen in a day. It seems like that mickie and trish leaving at the same time caught them by surprise and thy rushed everything together. They needed to build everything more properly but didnt have the time. And still mickie did a pretty good job turning face without the proper buildup. It just took time to make it believable. I was still entertained by her. And I started to see that she might be something special back then. And now my opinion is she is the best!

They could have slowed the face turn, but Lita was the only one Mickie could face that would be a believable challenger after Trish had beaten everyone else. Building faces doesn't happen in a day, you're right.... but it can be done faster than what most people think. Mickie did have the potential to be something special but she'll never be better than Trish because she's the best ever.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

True fans? Mickie's true fans will boo her if she's a heel and cheer her if she's a face; to do otherwise would be not only counterproductive to Mickie's character, but counterproductive to the show as well.

Still, some fans that really care still cheer. The same way randy orton sometimes get cheers, and other superstart also

How so? She managed to gain the support of the fans during her matches, and the majority of her matches ended with the fans on their feet. As a face, she accomplished what she was supposed to have done.

Ok, I think you are overreacting here. Yea, she got some reaction, but the corud was not that into it. She didn't do thatt good of a job. Like I said, allot of people found her boring and didnt care.

The heels don't carry the matches, the faces do. Both Michelle and Beth played their roles well, but they would not have succeeded if the talent they were paired with weren't as good as they were.

Agreed

Maryse is a great heel, one of the few right now who can draw legitimate heel heat, another being Michelle.

Yes, she does draw heat. She has a good character. But still, there is something about her that I do not like. And the more I see her, the more I get bored of her. I guess I am just weird.

You're right, a face does carry the division, but there isn't a top face right now, nor has their been since Trish Stratus was still on the active roster.

Mickie is a good face, but Melina is just as good, and so was Candice when she was still around.

Well, I think it about obvious now that i think mickie is the top face. And she did carry that devision well. And if melina and candice were so good, then they would get atleast the same pop as mickie, wich never happens. Or not that I know of.

[

QUOTE]Mickie would never be able to move merchandise like the guys would, if anything she'd probably lose Vince money in the long run.

Well. thats a difference of opinions again. I see that she would make vince money.

The only divas that probably sell anything are Kelly, Eve, and Maria, and that's because, according to the collective opinion (meaning not mine or your's but everyone's) of the IWC these three are usually ranked as being the most attractive of the divas.

I know, but its not all about being attractive. They are attractive, true, but they are not the ones with the biggest pop now are they!

And do you remember who she feuded with? Melina.The resulting feud, while not terrible, was far from extraordinary or noteworthy.

The other top face at the time, Candice, didn't fare much better until she started feuding with Beth.

Their feud blew the Mickie/ Melina rivalry out of the water. It established Candice as a credible face and champion and Beth as a heel to be feared.

And another difference of opinion. I think Mickie vs Melina was much better then Candice vs Beth. And if my memory serves me correct, people were much more into mickie vs melina then candice vs beth.

Melina, whose talents were on the same levels as Mickie's at that time

Even though she was the heel at that time, she was not really used much as a dominant heel. So they still needed to build her up in my opinion.

Mickie didn't stay on top for long, she was replaced by Candice for the second half of 2007, and later by Michelle for the latter half of 2008. As of now, Mickie is the top face on Smackdown, but she's not doing any better or worse than Melina, the top face on RAW.

I would not say she was replaced, they just wanted to try something different. And I am all op for that. And if it worked out with candice, I think it would rather be shared by the 2. But it didn't work out. Same with michelle. Its like with every title. Sometime you just want to see someone new in the title picture, but in the end, they always go back to the same person. And thats what happend here.

Again, the moves are merely an extension of a character, they are tools, like psychology and selling, used by a wrestler to recreate a realistic looking fight.

It wouldn't look realistic at all to do a bunch of flips and spins as a primary form of offense to fight off an opponent.

A punch to the face can have just as impact on the audience, if not more, than some weird, out of place move that doesn't fit the character being portrayed at all.

By diluted I mean watered down, a memorable match that connects with the audience is driven by the passion and emotion that comes from the feud itself, not by a bunch of fake moves that a bunch of entertainers use on each other.

I was not tlking about anything that looked unrealistic. She has tons of other moves that would fit her arsenal. I like when they have different ways of executing moves since it would make the match more unexpected. I love that feeling and that why I love different moves in a wresler.

Creative doesn't use anything for the divas that isn't already being used in the men's division in some form or fashion. On the card the women's division is small scale, they're not going to receive some large scale storyline at this point in time.

Men have more promos then woman do. And thats how you build up characters and fued. It gets much more interesting that way

I have mixed feelings with that storyline, the last thing a company should do is try to ruin the credibility or reputation of a top face.

I understand what you mean. It would infuriate me if they won't end this fued in a proper fashion>>>> Mickie needs to whoop michelle's ass and get that title. If that does not happen I will be completely pissed for letting mickie look like a fool out there. Not rewarding her for pretty much embarresing her out there.

If that's the way you feel then you're fighting an uphill battle. The majority of the IWC tends to think that Trish is the greatest diva of all time.

I know that the majority thinks trish is the greatest. But that does not change the fact the way I feel. When I think it is this way, I will try and support with all kinds of statement just to show that I truly believe my statement. It does not matter what other people think. It just matters what I think and that people understand why I think that way!

4 years after retiring and she still receives MASSIVE pops that seemingly rival even the top faces of the guys division.

Most retired people usually get pops. Its not just in Trish's case.

So the Mickie/ Michelle storyline lacks emotion? As does the Melina/ Maryse feud?

You'd have to be a stone not to feel at least some sympathy for Mickie, or irate that Maryse would have such audacity.

Ow no... I mented untill recently. This is the first fued that finally has something extra to it. I am looking forward to this fued. But at the same time I am scared of what they are going to do. I just hope and beg that they won't burry mickie. She has allot of passion if they actually let them embarres her like that and she deserves that womans title. Even if she looses the first title match to michelle, I think she should take it away from michelle. It needs to be done!!!
As for the maryse thing... MEH! Nothing special yet

That's your opinion and that's fine; I'm not trying to belittle your opinion, but just so you know, you're in the minority with your belief.

I find Kane to be the most entertaining wrestler I've ever seen, but I don't claim him to be the best of all time because I know that he's not.

Like I said before: When I believe in something, I express it, because I want everyone to know the why I feel that way.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

I don't think that would happen to Beth because she is really over compared to most of the divas.

True... lets hope if she ever gets the face turn, they do a good job turning her face.... unlike the last time they tried...

Nowhere near as much anymore, but yes. That and being part of the Hart Dynasty. She doesn't get heat because the fans like her and don't want to boo her. The storyline wouldn't be hard to do, they can figure something out.

hmmm.... usually people still cheer. Look at Randy Orton and Chris Jericho, they still have people cheering for them, even though they are heels.

Nah she could just got back to the stalker gimmick and go after Michelle.... Or Beth. That'd be interesting.

We all know that would work. But are the creative team that smart... hmmm.. NO... well not yet atleast... lets just see what they have planned for the devision.. Hopefully something really good

They wouldn't be complaining if this happened and Trish had good challengers. They could rotate between legit challengers (Mickie, Beth, Michelle) and "model" divas every other feud. It'd still work and no one would get sick of it.

The complained last time Trish held the title for that long. It would happen to anyone. Nobody should hold a title that long for that many times... thats why people always complain about batista, john cena, undertaker and hhh.... and ither ppl I am not think of.

Yeah but the scenario we are dicsussing is if Trish hadn't retired. If she were still here, then she'd still be champion and still dominate the division since not even Mickie is good enough to replace her.

And like I said before. NO... People complain, no matter who the person. They would get tired of trish and start booing her. They woould still need to keep her out of the title picture no matter what. And mickie would be the perfect part.

They could have slowed the face turn, but Lita was the only one Mickie could face that would be a believable challenger after Trish had beaten everyone else. Building faces doesn't happen in a day, you're right.... but it can be done faster than what most people think. Mickie did have the potential to be something special but she'll never be better than Trish because she's the best ever.

Building faces happens fast. But building a top face is suppose to take longer then that if you want to make it believable. And even still, mickie did a great job becoming top face... thus making her the best.....

And now its your turn!

 

[Dagger Dias]

True... lets hope if she ever gets the face turn, they do a good job turning her face.... unlike the last time they tried...

Last time doesn't really count because that was more of them testing the waters to see possible reactions. It won't be the case in a real face turn.

hmmm.... usually people still cheer. Look at Randy Orton and Chris Jericho, they still have people cheering for them, even though they are heels.

Yeah sometimes that happens when a wrestler is popular enough

We all know that would work. But are the creative team that smart... hmmm.. NO... well not yet atleast... lets just see what they have planned for the devision.. Hopefully something really good

This IS the "creative" team you are talking about.... lol

The complained last time Trish held the title for that long. It would happen to anyone. Nobody should hold a title that long for that many times... thats why people always complain about batista, john cena, undertaker and hhh.... and ither ppl I am not think of.

No they only complain when it gets stale. As long as there are enough interesting challengers it's not bad.

And like I said before. NO... People complain, no matter who the person. They would get tired of trish and start booing her. They woould still need to keep her out of the title picture no matter what. And mickie would be the perfect part.

That's when she would make a heel turn if she had been face too long, or vice versa. Her long reign would continue with revitalised fan interest. There are many fans who would never get sick of Trish, can't say that for Mickie.

Building faces happens fast. But building a top face is suppose to take longer then that if you want to make it believable. And even still, mickie did a great job becoming top face... thus making her the best.....

That's why you build a temporary top face, to feud with the top heel. Then once she has failed the next face becomes a temporary top face. Only the longterm "top face" turns take long. Mickie has done a fantastic job as a face, but that doesn't mean she's better than Trish because Trish is the best diva ever.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

Last time doesn't really count because that was more of them testing the waters to see possible reactions. It won't be the case in a real face turn.

Well. You are right there. Lets just hope when it happens, if it happens, It will be a good one.

No they only complain when it gets stale. As long as there are enough interesting challengers it's not bad.

Hmmmm... if only it really were so bad... I always hear complaints

That's when she would make a heel turn if she had been face too long, or vice versa. Her long reign would continue with revitalised fan interest. There are many fans who would never get sick of Trish, can't say that for Mickie.

Well, I remember allot of people complaining around her third title reign already that it was to much for her... And at her over a year long title reign it just got really bad with complaints. I know that you don't think she is stale or whatever. But there are for more people that think she is... More then you think.

That's why you build a temporary top face, to feud with the top heel. Then once she has failed the next face becomes a temporary top face. Only the longterm "top face" turns take long. Mickie has done a fantastic job as a face, but that doesn't mean she's better than Trish because Trish is the best diva ever.

Yes, there are always short term faces to make a fresh new page. And ofcourse if the new face did a really good job, she would be getting allot more titles. But in the end you still need a top face to support a devision. Mickie did this by herself... making her the best ever with the job she has done and the succes she got.

On another note,
I notice you are into blond people. From Trish Stratus and Michelle McCool to the beautiful people. They are really interesting though, and I actually want to see more. They were really exiting most of the time.... And I can see a little Trish in Angelina Love if you ask me... hahahaha

 

[Dagger Dias]

Well, I remember allot of people complaining around her third title reign already that it was to much for her... And at her over a year long title reign it just got really bad with complaints. I know that you don't think she is stale or whatever. But there are for more people that think she is... More then you think.

Weird, all I remember during that time was people saying how awesome she was and that no one could ever beat her.

Yes, there are always short term faces to make a fresh new page. And ofcourse if the new face did a really good job, she would be getting allot more titles. But in the end you still need a top face to support a devision. Mickie did this by herself... making her the best ever with the job she has done and the succes she got.

That still doesn't make her the best ever. If she was the best ever then she would have had enough skill to revive the division.

On another note,
I notice you are into blond people. From Trish Stratus and Michelle McCool to the beautiful people.

Not gonna lie, I do have a thing for blond amazons. I have liked a lot of female wrestlers who aren't blonde though. Sarita, Alissa Flash, Christy Hemme, Mickie James, Eve, Candice, Lita.... see? I don't prefer blonds as much as you thought.

They are really interesting though, and I actually want to see more. They were really exiting most of the time.... And I can see a little Trish in Angelina Love if you ask me... hahahaha

Yeah, Angelina could be seen as inspired by a heel version of Trish I suppose. Taylor is TNA's Trish though. See how we are discussing who TNA's "Trish" is though and NOT who TNA's "Mickie" is? I've got you now. Trish is the best diva ever.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

Weird, all I remember during that time was people saying how awesome she was and that no one could ever beat her.

hmmm... Must have been looking at the wrong places.... But seriously, I am not kidding about that.

That still doesn't make her the best ever. If she was the best ever then she would have had enough skill to revive the division.

But you say that because you assume that Trish would have been able to do that. And like I said. I do not believe that is possible!!!!

Not gonna lie, I do have a thing for blond amazons. I have liked a lot of female wrestlers who aren't blonde though. Sarita, Alissa Flash, Christy Hemme, Mickie James, Eve, Candice, Lita.... see? I don't prefer blonds as much as you thought.

Hahahahah, ok. Well either way, appearently blonds are ON TOP of your list.. Wonder if that means anything.....

Yeah, Angelina could be seen as inspired by a heel version of Trish I suppose. Taylor is TNA's Trish though. See how we are discussing who TNA's "Trish" is though and NOT who TNA's "Mickie" is? I've got you now. Trish is the best diva ever.

OH NO!!!!! Don't start putting words in my mouth. I said she kinda had something of trish in her because I though thats why you were so into her. NOT because we always have to find a trish in a womans devision. Beside, I only saw like 2 to 3 matches with the same beautiful people. And I dont think that either Tara, Awsome Kong or .... uhm... idk the rest have enything mickie into them... Let me browse some more if you want me to point out a mickie for you
And why should I do that.... Because MICKIE is THE BEST
END OF DISCUSSION!!!!

 

[Dagger Dias]

hmmm... Must have been looking at the wrong places.... But seriously, I am not kidding about that.

Nope, I believe I was looking in the right places lol

But you say that because you assume that Trish would have been able to do that. And like I said. I do not believe that is possible!!!!

I don't assume Trish could pull it off, I simply KNOW she could.

Hahahahah, ok. Well either way, appearently blonds are ON TOP of your list.. Wonder if that means anything.....

A guy can be attracted to the divas, them being hot is half of the point of the division. As for the blond amazon thing, I am a descendant of Vikings, if that says anything about that.

OH NO!!!!! Don't start putting words in my mouth. I said she kinda had something of trish in her because I though thats why you were so into her.

No, I didn't even draw that connection until you pointed it out just now. I liked Angelina because she's an amazing heel female.

NOT because we always have to find a trish in a womans devision.

Exactly, because she's the best. Would fans always be looking for the next Rock or Stone Cold if THEY weren't the best? Trish is the standard that every female wrestler will be compared to for the rest of this generation because she is the greatest.

Beside, I only saw like 2 to 3 matches with the same beautiful people. And I dont think that either Tara, Awsome Kong or .... uhm... idk the rest have enything mickie into them... Let me browse some more if you want me to point out a mickie for you

If I had to pick someone, I'd say "TNA's Mickie" might be Sarita. Still though, no one looks for who the next Mickie is because she isn't good enough for people to look for who is the next one to be like her. They will always look for "the next Trish" whether Kelly ends up being it or not. Trish is the best diva ever and they will always be looking for "the next Trish", always. No one can ever replace her because she's the best.

 

[Bernkastel]

Still, some fans that really care still cheer. The same way randy orton sometimes get cheers, and other superstart also

If you cheer for a heel, regardless if its your favorite wrestler or not, it's counterproductive to the show. It's like going to the movies and cheering for the Joker to kill Batman.

Ok, I think you are overreacting here. Yea, she got some reaction, but the corud was not that into it. She didn't do thatt good of a job. Like I said, allot of people found her boring and didnt care.

If the audience doesn't like a match, there's usually either silence or they'll voice their boredom, the fact that Candice normally received cheers from the crowd must have meant that the audiences enjoyed her matches. Fans are not going to cheer for someone they don't like.

Yes, she does draw heat. She has a good character. But still, there is something about her that I do not like. And the more I see her, the more I get bored of her. I guess I am just weird.

You're not supposed to like her, you're supposed to hate her, she's the heel. If she gets under your skin so much, then it's clear that she's doing her job.

Well, I think it about obvious now that i think mickie is the top face. And she did carry that devision well. And if melina and candice were so good, then they would get atleast the same pop as mickie, wich never happens. Or not that I know of.

Mickie receives nothing but the average, run-of-the-mill reaction that women normally draw. Trish and Lita are exceptions, they drew reactions that are comparable to many of the top names of the men's division.

Women like Candice, Mickie, and Melina all draw the same types of reactions, which, by comparison, aren't even equal to those of the top midcarders of the men's division.

Well. thats a difference of opinions again. I see that she would make vince money.

Compared to who? John Cena? Jeff Hardy? Undertaker?

You're completely delusional if you think so

I know, but its not all about being attractive. They are attractive, true, but they are not the ones with the biggest pop now are they

Er, yes, yes it is. When it comes to selling merchandise the only women that have a chance of moving any kind of stock are going to be the most attractive ones.

There isn't a single woman in the division with enough popularity to move enough merchandise to generate a profit by herself.

And another difference of opinion. I think Mickie vs Melina was much better then Candice vs Beth. And if my memory serves me correct, people were much more into mickie vs melina then candice vs beth.

If Mickie was so much better than everyone else, then why did creative relinquish her spotlight to Candice in 2007? Why was she given almost nothing to do during the latter half of 2008, while fans were paying attention to women like Maryse and Michelle on a different show?

Like I said before, Mickie has never been a one woman show, sure she's had her moments in the sun before, but she's also spent some time near the bottom of the totem.

Even though she was the heel at that time, she was not really used much as a dominant heel. So they still needed to build her up in my opinion.

Huh? She was the most credible heel at the time, and thusly was the most dominant heel at the time.

I would not say she was replaced, they just wanted to try something different.

If Mickie was truly that great, creative would have stuck Mickie in the feud against Beth, knowing that her work would be fruitful because of her consistency in the past.

Just look at John Cena's reign in 2006 for proof, or Trish Stratus's reigns from 2002 to 2004

And up to that point, Mickie had been anything but consistent

And I am all op for that. And if it worked out with candice, I think it would rather be shared by the 2. But it didn't work out. Same with michelle. Its like with every title. Sometime you just want to see someone new in the title picture, but in the end, they always go back to the same person. And thats what happend here.

That's called a rotation, the WWE had two faces at the time, with Candice injured it was natural that Mickie was given the top position once again.

This doesn't mean Mickie was better than Candice, it merely means that the WWE had two options for a top face, with one injured they had to use the other. This also mean's that Mickie wasn't the best at the time, how could she have been with another face receiving the top program.

I was not tlking about anything that looked unrealistic. She has tons of other moves that would fit her arsenal. I like when they have different ways of executing moves since it would make the match more unexpected. I love that feeling and that why I love different moves in a wresler.

What else would Mickie need to use? She's a brawler, not a powerhouse or a technician.

Men have more promos then woman do. And thats how you build up characters and fued. It gets much more interesting that way

The women's division will never receive the attention that the men's will, because it's no where near as popular.Trish and Lita, as great as they were, even their popularity paled compared to guys like Rock, Austin, and Hogan during their heyday.

Considering the attention the women's division receives now, I'd say they're doing pretty well for themselves. They have two titles for the division, and at least two storylines running simultaneously.

I understand what you mean. It would infuriate me if they won't end this fued in a proper fashion>>>> Mickie needs to whoop michelle's ass and get that title. If that does not happen I will be completely pissed for letting mickie look like a fool out there. Not rewarding her for pretty much embarresing her out there.

Normally the face does get the better of the heel in the end, so it's not going surprise me when Mickie does win the title.

As long as both entertainers do their best to put on an entertaining match, I'll have no complaints.

I know that the majority thinks trish is the greatest. But that does not change the fact the way I feel.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but I will ask you not to try and pass your opinion off as fact.

When I think it is this way, I will try and support with all kinds of statement just to show that I truly believe my statement.

A noble act, but at the same time, you've got to be humble enough to admit when you're wrong

It does not matter what other people think. It just matters what I think and that people understand why I think that way

It's not about what you think, nor is it about what I think. When you argue a point you've got to look at what everyone thinks. The majority of fans believe that Trish was the greatest of all time, and that Mickie still has a long way to go before she can be considered her equal.

Trying to pass off your opinion as fact with nothing to back it up besides it being 'your opinion' is completely ignorant.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

I don't assume Trish could pull it off, I simply KNOW she could.

I knew that you were going to say that! So predictable, hahahaha. Unless you have proof it is just a speculation. Adnd thats a speculation I just don't see.

A guy can be attracted to the divas, them being hot is half of the point of the division. As for the blond amazon thing, I am a descendant of Vikings, if that says anything about that.

Yea, I know. I never said that you couldn't be attracted to them. And I've got no comment about your " viking" histroy tree.

No, I didn't even draw that connection until you pointed it out just now. I liked Angelina because she's an amazing heel female.

She is pretty interesting, thats for sure. I kinda like her to. But thats because I usuallyy love heels. I still need to watch some more to evaluate better.

Exactly, because she's the best. Would fans always be looking for the next Rock or Stone Cold if THEY weren't the best? Trish is the standard that every female wrestler will be compared to for the rest of this generation because she is the greatest.

I don't get that. Even though they were great wrestlers and you want someone to be able to replace how much money they brought for the company. You would still want someone new. I would want someone new since getting the same character over and over again would be boring. For example, I would never say mickie is the new Trish Stratus. Mickie is not the new Trish Stratus! Mickie James is Mickie James. And this has nothing to do with who is better so don't try and connect that!

If I had to pick someone, I'd say "TNA's Mickie" might be Sarita. Still though, no one looks for who the next Mickie is because she isn't good enough for people to look for who is the next one to be like her. They will always look for "the next Trish" whether Kelly ends up being it or not. Trish is the best diva ever and they will always be looking for "the next Trish", always. No one can ever replace her because she's the best.

Well in the end you may feel whatever you like. You can think she is the best. I have explained allot about why Mickie James is the best. One thing though, even though kelly might be "the next trish" I hope she is allot different. Otherwise I will be doing allot of channel flipping when she becomes similar to her. Mickie James is the best diva ever FTW

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

If you cheer for a heel, regardless if its your favorite wrestler or not, it's counterproductive to the show. It's like going to the movies and cheering for the Joker to kill Batman.

I know. Sometimes I did wish that the joker killed batman. I am tired of new movies that will never be as good. Atleast it will stop then ... The last one was good though.

If the audience doesn't like a match, there's usually either silence or they'll voice their boredom, the fact that Candice normally received cheers from the crowd must have meant that the audiences enjoyed her matches. Fans are not going to cheer for someone they don't like.

Yea, thats true.

You're not supposed to like her, you're supposed to hate her, she's the heel. If she gets under your skin so much, then it's clear that she's doing her job.

I know. But I usually like heels since they are more interesting. So it is weird for me to not like maryse. Maby you are right, but I usually look past the heel character and look if I like how they play their character. And she does do a good job, just I don't like it that much. Plus she is kinda boring in the ring till furthur notice.

Mickie receives nothing but the average, run-of-the-mill reaction that women normally draw. Trish and Lita are exceptions, they drew reactions that are comparable to many of the top names of the men's division.

I do not feel that way. Mickie receives more then average then what the normal woman draw. But I am not going to lie to myself, ofcourse mickie does not draw as much as the male do. And no, she does not get as much cheers as Trish do. But I have said before that getting fans behind you has allot to do with the storyline you have been through and are going through.

Women like Candice, Mickie, and Melina all draw the same types of reactions, which, by comparison, aren't even equal to those of the top midcarders of the men's division.

I still say mickie draws more then melina and candice. I have compared before. And I know that is does not compare witht the men's devision. Or some of them atleast.

Compared to who? John Cena? Jeff Hardy? Undertaker?

You're completely delusional if you think so

Er, yes, yes it is. When it comes to selling merchandise the only women that have a chance of moving any kind of stock are going to be the most attractive ones.

I don't think so. Little kids don't care about that stuff. And Mickie is pretty attractive eitherway. Plus with her wrestling skills and fans It would be a seller.

If Mickie was so much better than everyone else, then why did creative relinquish her spotlight to Candice in 2007? Why was she given almost nothing to do during the latter half of 2008, while fans were paying attention to women like Maryse and Michelle on a different show?

Like I said before, Mickie has never been a one woman show, sure she's had her moments in the sun before, but she's also spent some time near the bottom of the totem.

You always have to give woman a break. Its like in the men devision. Sometimes a new person comes along and win the title, just to make it a bit different and change the way it usually goes. It keep things fresh. I think that is what happened to candice. Plus mickie never had a break since coming to WWE. Maby that were the times when she got a little rest. And in 2008 there were 2 titles. So ofcourse you needed to have fans pay attention to that 2. But I would not say that it was more then paying attention to her.

Huh? She was the most credible heel at the time, and thusly was the most dominant heel at the time.

Yes, she was the most creditable. But she didn't get so many matches before that to make her look like a dominant heel. She needed to build that up. And that happened during the mickie melina fued.

What else would Mickie need to use? She's a brawler, not a powerhouse or a technician.

Like I said, nothing out of the extraordinary. It will still suit her.

The women's division will never receive the attention that the men's will, because it's no where near as popular.Trish and Lita, as great as they were, even their popularity paled compared to guys like Rock, Austin, and Hogan during their heyday.

Considering the attention the women's division receives now, I'd say they're doing pretty well for themselves. They have two titles for the division, and at least two storylines running simultaneously.

I agree. Lately they have been doing good. It seems like they are finally being build up well enough.

Normally the face does get the better of the heel in the end, so it's not going surprise me when Mickie does win the title.

As long as both entertainers do their best to put on an entertaining match, I'll have no complaints.

I know. But it is still bringing a "problem" in real life into a storyline, wich I think is a bit much. So to me she really deserves that title. And like I said, I would be extremely pissed off if she doesn and they cut that fued off.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but I will ask you not to try and pass your opinion off as fact.

Ok, no. I am not trying to pass my opinion as a fact. But I feel that by doing that you can see that I believe in my opinion with no doubt.

A noble act, but at the same time, you've got to be humble enough to admit when you're wrong

I know. One of the hard things to do in my opinion. I just hate admitting that. But I would do it in the end.

It's not about what you think, nor is it about what I think. When you argue a point you've got to look at what everyone thinks. The majority of fans believe that Trish was the greatest of all time, and that Mickie still has a long way to go before she can be considered her equal.

Trying to pass off your opinion as fact with nothing to back it up besides it being 'your opinion' is completely ignorant.

I am trying to back my opnion up with facts and some other opinions I have. But most of the time it is yyour opinion you need to back it up by since u never know what really is happening at the wwe. Now I am not going to be stupid and ignorant. I know that more people think that Trish is the best diva. But that wont stop me from believing that mickie is the best. And that wont stop me from expressing my opinion to you guys either. I am just trying to make you understand why I feel that way.

 

[Dagger Dias]

She is pretty interesting, thats for sure. I kinda like her to. But thats because I usuallyy love heels. I still need to watch some more to evaluate better.

Angelina? There's plenty of stuff you could look up, she was involved with a lot of great storylines and matches in TNA.

I don't get that. Even though they were great wrestlers and you want someone to be able to replace how much money they brought for the company. You would still want someone new. I would want someone new since getting the same character over and over again would be boring. For example, I would never say mickie is the new Trish Stratus. Mickie is not the new Trish Stratus! Mickie James is Mickie James. And this has nothing to do with who is better so don't try and connect that!

Wasn't going to. Trish was never boring though, Mickie sometimes was. Wanting someone new is good too, but if someone makes a lot of money for the company why replace them so soon?

Well in the end you may feel whatever you like. You can think she is the best. I have explained allot about why Mickie James is the best. One thing though, even though kelly might be "the next trish" I hope she is allot different. Otherwise I will be doing allot of channel flipping when she becomes similar to her. Mickie James is the best diva ever FTW

I'm sure Kelly will be different, you can be the next (insert name here) but still have a different character. Why would you channel flip during anything with Kelly in it though? She's more awesome than just about every currently active diva.

You still have yet to convince me that Trish is better than Mickie though. In your next argument, try to come up with some reasons for why you think she's better, because I didn't have as much to answer to in this one.... and for the record, Trish is the best diva, not Mickie.

 

[K_V_W(A_U_A)]

Angelina? There's plenty of stuff you could look up, she was involved with a lot of great storylines and matches in TNA.

Yea, they really are interesting. I kinda already like them. Tara isn't doing as well as I though though. And why the hell do you hate awsome kong. She is something so different thats its really refreshing.

Wasn't going to. Trish was never boring though, Mickie sometimes was. Wanting someone new is good too, but if someone makes a lot of money for the company why replace them so soon?

Ok, Trish was usually not boring. But I just can't help but find that more then one year title run of hers boring. There was nothing really special about it. The only special thing was her holding it that long. Untill mickie came along anyway.

I'm sure Kelly will be different, you can be the next (insert name here) but still have a different character. Why would you channel flip during anything with Kelly in it though? She's more awesome than just about every currently active diva.

Uhum... I don't know if your being sarcastic or not.... How is she the most awsome?? She barely gets storylines, IDK what her character is suppose to be.... It's weird with her. IDK what wwe wants to do with her yet since she is not getting anywhere

You still have yet to convince me that Trish is better than Mickie though. In your next argument, try to come up with some reasons for why you think she's better, because I didn't have as much to answer to in this one.... and for the record, Trish is the best diva, not Mickie.

Thats beause my first argument(the start if this debate) was pretty much my only arguments I gave... after that it has just been about reacting about what you ppl have been saying. Trying to defend everythin.

I can say the same about you not convincing me that Trish is the best...

PS: Look at your sentence again... see anything wrong with it????

You still have yet to convince me that Trish is better than Mickie though.

New arguments why mickie is the best:

1) Mickie James has allot of passion for wrestling. She has worked her ass of for more the 10 years in total. She has gone to wrestling schools, went to allot of competition. She worked her ass of coming to WWE. It took time for wwe to take notice of her and she still continued till they did. She is still wrestling aftr 10 years (or 11, can't remember rigth now). It shows you just how much passion she has for the sport.

2) When has she ever had an injury. That I know of never. I don't really consider the breat implant pop, since its technically not suppose to be there in the first place

3) Even though she does not follow the 'diva type" (aka tooth pick body that looks like you bend them to much they will snap) she still is in the WWE and gets a huge succes. Goes to show you that WWE still thinks she is worthy ofbeing that succesful. That must mean something. And even now that she is 'fat' she still didnt get fired and is now the number one contender.. unlike candice, who got fired on the spot.

4) Fans love her. Even after the breaks she had (giving title runs to other ppl) she still gets massive cheers. More then I can say for other divas.

5) She has great mic skills... enough said

6) She pulls great wresling matches.

7) She is great as a heel or face. She gets into her character really well and acts it out well as a heel. But also gets the cheers she needs as a face, and get people behind her.

8) She proves to all woman out there that with hard work and determination you can become a diva. with all that wrestling backround and all of the things she has been through. Great for the kids especially now that WWE is PG.

9)She has made a name for herself in less then a year. Unlike new divas that come by that take more then a year to do the same. like the bella twins and rosa mendes, gail kim, etc. It says something doesn't it!

Do I need to go on?
How many things more can I say, she has proven herself to me. I think She is the greatest Diva ever.