Echelon's Mini Game: Defeat Sailor Moon and win cool prizes

[Bernkastel]

Rincewind.

What can he do? I'm assuming you're going to trap me in an alternate dimension.

 

[Silly Willy Nilly Vanilly in the Milly]

I'll allow you to choose a neutral battlefield for us before we start.

Would you consider New Genesis neutral?

 

[Gelgarin]

Not very much. He's quite good at languages and is an absolute master at running away from things. He does have a rather belligerent box on legs that follows him everywhere.

 

[Bernkastel]

Would you consider New Genesis neutral?

Some questions. What is the biggest thing his Omega Beams have destroyed? What is Darkseid's best durability feat? Does he have any weapons stronger than the Omega Beams? If so, what can they do?

 

[Bernkastel]

Not very much. He's quite good at languages and is an absolute master at running away from things. He does have a rather belligerent box on legs that follows him everywhere.

Can you explain how he's going to beat Sailor Moon? Even if he can run away at the speed of light, he won't get far.

 

[Remix]

I'll address Kotre's argument first. An example of Sailor Moon's durability. She takes the Sailor Planet attack, which can destroy planets since Sailor Saturn, a confirmed planet buster, participated.

Spoiler

She takes the attack with no defense at all, and although wounded, she not only survives, but she gets right back up and keeps fighting.

Spoiler

She has enough durability to survive an exploding planet with no defense, but with defense she has the power to survive Sailor Galaxia's Galactic Inflation attack, which can rip out your soul if it even touches you once.

Spoiler

If your attack happens instantly, and Sailor Moon's attack happens instantly, she should be able to block the worst of that attack, considering that her durability is planetary level with no defense. Most likely scenario would be she activates her attack in defense, but isn't able to block all the spears. Some get through and impale her, but don't leave any fatal wounds.

So now you've got an injured and pissed off Sailor Moon looking at you, what's your next move?

My next move is to state that surviving a planet busting move is not the same thing as surviving a fatal stab wound. Sailor Kakyu, who is the equivalent of Sailor Moon in another star system (and thus has comparable powers and durability to Sailor Moon. She could therefore have survived a planet busting move) was felled by a simple stab.

And to further this, I want to elaborate a bit more on the nature of Oversoul to dispel the "no fatal wounds" argument you just made.

Spoiler

Yoh, despite blocking the blade wielded by Eliza still gets a nasty wound (which puts him in the hospital for a long time afterwards). That's because Oversoul is able to expand beyond an object and still cut deeply. Look close at this image showing the aftermath of Ren's Tougen Kyou.

Spoiler

See the aura surrounding the many, many spears? That's the invisible, formless blade mentioned in the first scan. The formless blade of an oversoul can be easily manipulated by a shaman as he finds it useful. In this case, even a light cut from the spear can be made a wound that daylight can be seen through. OS: Super Bushin doesn't leave many non fatal wounds.

 

[Silly Willy Nilly Vanilly in the Milly]

Some questions. What is the biggest thing his Omega Beams have destroyed?

The thing is, Darkseid typically uses his superintelligence and strength to battler his opponents. He only really uses his Omega Beams to teleport his opponents to the place of his choosing. He has destroyed the base of the Legion of Doom and a few superhuman people, but beyond that, I can't say.

What is Darkseid's best durability feat?

He typically uses his speed, where he can react to, and evade, an attack within nanoseconds. He also uses his telepathy and telekinesis to predict and evade attacks and can create psionic avatars as scapegoats.

Does he have any weapons stronger than the Omega Beams? If so, what can they do?

Not really, save his superstrength and superintelligence.

 

[Gelgarin]

Rincewind was written by a grownup, so obviously he can't run away at the speed of light. He's a skilled sprinter by human standards, but that is all.

If I trapped you in an alternate dimension then Sailor Moon would be powerless for reasons we already covered and she'd simply get eaten alive by The Luggage. That's not much fun, so I'll let you have Sailor Moon on her home soil with all of the magical powers that you desire.

Sailor Moon loses because she cannot win. Rincewind is protected by narrative causality. Rincewind survived a journey through the eight circles of hell. Rincewind survived a battle with the most powerful sorcerer in the history of the world. Rincewind defeated an army of seven million professional soldiers when backed up by only seven old men and a teacher. Rincewind survived for several years in the Dungeon Dimensions, an alternate dimension inhabited entirely by universe destroyers. Rincewind has traveled across multiple times and dimensions and survived encounters with Gods, the creator of the universe and DEATH. Rincewind has saved the world about as many times as Sailor Moon, the only difference being that he usually didn't mean to do so at the time.

In short; narrative causality renders Rincewind unkillable. Since Sailor Moon is not an Omnipotent it must therefore be hypothetically possible for her to be defeated by Rincewind. It might be a million to one chance; it might be a ten million to one, but as long as the chance exists it will invariably come up on account of the laws of narrative causality.

 

[Bernkastel]

My next move is to state that surviving a planet busting move is not the same thing as surviving a fatal stab wound. Sailor Kakyu, who is the equivalent of Sailor Moon in another star system (and thus has comparable powers and durability to Sailor Moon. She could therefore have survived a planet busting move) was felled by a simple stab.

Sailor Kakyu is nowhere close to Sailor Moon's strength; Sailor Moon is the strongest soldier in the galaxy, with Galaxia at a close second.

She was stabbed through the throat, which made it impossible for her to breathe. If she hadn't bled out, she would have have suffocated.

And to further this, I want to elaborate a bit more on the nature of Oversoul to dispel the "no fatal wounds" argument you just made.

Spoiler

Yoh, despite blocking the blade wielded by Eliza still gets a nasty wound (which puts him in the hospital for a long time afterwards). That's because Oversoul is able to expand beyond an object and still cut deeply. Look close at this image showing the aftermath of Ren's Tougen Kyou.

Can Oversoul cut through pure energy? If so can it cut through energy that can protect the user from an attack that can rip the soul out of their body even when they're touched by it?

Spoiler

See the aura surrounding the many, many spears? That's the invisible, formless blade mentioned in the first scan. The formless blade of an oversoul can be easily manipulated by a shaman as he finds it useful. In this case, even a light cut from the spear can be made a wound that daylight can be seen through. OS: Super Bushin doesn't leave many non fatal wounds.

Show me an example of a spear cutting through an energy shield powerful enough to tank an exploding planet.

 

[Bernkastel]

Rincewind was written by a grownup, so obviously he can't run away at the speed of light. He's a skilled sprinter by human standards, but that is all.

If I trapped you in an alternate dimension then Sailor Moon would be powerless for reasons we already covered and she'd simply get eaten alive by The Luggage. That's not much fun, so I'll let you have Sailor Moon on her home soil with all of the magical powers that you desire.

There is no home soil in this mini game, all verses are connected through a neutral onmiverse. That's how battle games normally work.

I never once said or implied that these fights were only taking place in one universe. Didn't think I'd have too

Sailor Moon loses because she cannot win. Rincewind is protected by narrative causality. Rincewind survived a journey through the eight circles of hell. Rincewind survived a battle with the most powerful sorcerer in the history of the world. Rincewind defeated an army of seven million professional soldiers when backed up by only seven old men and a teacher. Rincewind survived for several years in the Dungeon Dimensions, an alternate dimension inhabited entirely by universe destroyers. Rincewind has traveled across multiple times and dimensions and survived encounters with Gods, the creator of the universe and DEATH. Rincewind has saved the world about as many times as Sailor Moon, the only difference being that he usually didn't mean to do so at the time.

In short; narrative causality renders Rincewind unkillable. Since Sailor Moon is not an Omnipotent it must therefore be hypothetically possible for her to be defeated by Rincewind. It might be a million to one chance; it might be a ten million to one, but as long as the chance exists it will invariably come up on account of the laws of narrative causality.

Lady Luck. So he's like Luckyman. I could buy this considering Luckyman is basically a normal human and is considered to be one of the strongest characters in Japan.

Before I'm convinced, please give me a scenario where he would beat her. For example Luckyman could defeat Light, despite being human, because Light would on accident write his own name on the Death Note.

 

[Gelgarin]

Based off past precedent I would imagine Rincewind manages to escape from Sailor Moon via contrivance. We've already established that she's not going to fly around nuking planets for no reason. Sailor Moon makes the terminally bad career move of opening the luggage and the rest writes itself.

 

[Bernkastel]

Based off past precedent I would imagine Rincewind manages to escape from Sailor Moon via contrivance. We've already established that she's not going to fly around nuking planets for no reason. Sailor Moon makes the terminally bad career move of opening the luggage and the rest writes itself.

I'll buy that. Congrats. You've won the third round. What prize do you want?

RINCEWIND IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE

 

[Remix]

Sailor Kakyu is nowhere close to Sailor Moon's strength; Sailor Moon is the strongest soldier in the galaxy, with Galaxia at a close second.

She was stabbed through the throat, which made it impossible for her to breathe. If she hadn't bled out, she would have have suffocated.

And assuming Moon is standing vertically, Moon is getting stabbed through multiple vital organs, including the intestines, liver, stomach oespohagus, bronchi and brain.

Can Oversoul cut through pure energy? If so can it cut through energy that can protect the user from an attack that can rip the soul out of their body even when they're touched by it?

Oversoul is comprised of spiritual energy, and oversoul can cut through oversoul (in fact, it is specifically stated that only oversoul can cut oversoul). So I am going to say yes. Hao used OS: Spirit of Fire to rip out many people's souls and its attacks have been blocked and the oversoul itself cut through by other oversouls.

Show me an example of a spear cutting through an energy shield.

OK.

Spoiler

That photo shows Golem, an oversoul constructed in such a way that it can be considered an energy shield. (Furyoku is energy. It is a hollow object that surrounds the pilot.) Its reiyoku level is also higher than the aforementioned Spirit of Fire and is powered by consuming souls.

 

[Gelgarin]

That was disappointingly easy. Feedback for someone who isn't me.

 

[Bernkastel]

And assuming Moon is standing vertically, Moon is getting stabbed through multiple vital organs, including the intestines, liver, stomach oespohagus, bronchi and brain.



Oversoul is comprised of spiritual energy, and oversoul can cut through oversoul (in fact, it is specifically stated that only oversoul can cut oversoul). So I am going to say yes. Hao used OS: Spirit of Fire to rip out many people's souls and its attacks have been blocked and the oversoul itself cut through by other oversouls.



OK.

Spoiler

That photo shows Golem, an oversoul constructed in such a way that it can be considered an energy shield. (Furyoku is energy. It is a hollow object that surrounds the pilot.) Its reiyoku level is also higher than the aforementioned Spirit of Fire and is powered by consuming souls.

Alright; Sailor Moon's body is not her actual body, it's like an avatar. I've mentioned Sailor Guardians before. They are the true form of a Sailor Soldier's soul. The Guardians allow the body to detect danger at a subconscious level, and will compensate by automatically releasing more power in an attack or a defense. The only time when this is shown to fail is when the Sailor Soldier is attacked by a stronger opponent; like Sailor Galaxia.

An example of this is that scan I showed when Eternal Sailor Moon recreates her scepter despite having it blown to bits seconds before. This is also how Sailor Moon is able to restore cities and bring people back to life.

Spoiler

When she activates her attack to shield herself from yours, it's plausible that her Guardian will pullout enough power to adequately protect her. I've shown that Sailor Moon's full potential is star busting.

Can this attack of yours cut through an energy shield powerful enough to blow a star apart? If it can did the person who raised the shield survive the attack?

 

[Bernkastel]

That was disappointingly easy. Feedback for someone who isn't me.

Curse Sailor Moon and her loving heart.

 

[Remix]

Alright; Sailor Moon's body is not her actual body, it's like an avatar. I've mentioned Sailor Guardians before. They are the true form of a Sailor Soldier's soul. The Guardians allow the body to detect danger at a subconscious level, and will compensate by automatically releasing more power in an attack or a defense. The only time when this is shown to fail is when the Sailor Soldier is attacked by a stronger opponent; like Sailor Galaxia.

An example of this is that scan I showed when Eternal Sailor Moon recreates her scepter despite having it blown to bits seconds before. This is also how Sailor Moon is able to restore cities and bring people back to life.

Spoiler

When she activates her attack to shield herself from yours, it's plausible that her Guardian will pullout enough power to adequately protect her. I've shown that Sailor Moon's full potential is star busting.

Can this attack of yours cut through an energy shield powerful enough to blow a star apart? If it can did the person who raised the shield survive the attack?

For Moon (or her guardians) to subconciously do anything, she needs time to react. It's hard to react when you've already got a spear going through most of your internal organs. Again, this attack is instant. Even if Ren starts out by saying "I will end this in one blow" and Moon instantly responds with her sheild its strength would be no stronger than it would be without Guardian powered input, and thus fatally breakable by Tougen Kyou. Even if she survives it, Ren can end it at close range with Shishen Tougen Kyou which fills her with more holes than swiss cheese.

Their ability to detect danger is impaired when they cannot be aware of it before it happens. They have never faced Ren or OS Super Bushin before. Therefore they have no idea of the power he has or how dangerous he is until spears erupt from the floor. He is simply a man holding an odd looking spear.

 

[Барбоса]

That was disappointingly easy. Feedback for someone who isn't me.

So the argument for Rincewind defeating Sailor Moon is because he will?

Interesting.

There are problems I see with that is that it could be applied to other characters who would never be written to die. What is to stop an argument of "Goku will defeat Sailor Moon because Goku always wins eventually" or "Bugs Bunny would defeat Sailor Moon because the writers would never have Bugs lose"?

There is also some idea of specious reasoning in the argument that Rincewind would win because circumstances up until this point have meant that he has never been defeated.

On top of that there is also an almost implied omnipotence with such a character. Luck will keep him safe regardless of the situation.

 

[Bernkastel]

For Moon (or her guardians) to subconciously do anything, she needs time to react. It's hard to react when you've already got a spear going through most of your internal organs. Again, this attack is instant.

I've established several times that Sailor Moon's attacks are also instant. She was able to subconsciously sense that her comrades where in danger; and this was in civilian form.

Even if Ren starts out by saying "I will end this in one blow" and Moon instantly responds with her sheild its strength would be no stronger than it would be without Guardian powered input, and thus fatally breakable by Tougen Kyou. Even if she survives it, Ren can end it at close range with Shishen Tougen Kyou which fills her with more holes than swiss cheese.

Where's the proof that Togen Kyou can pierce or negate an shield/attack capable of blowing a star apart? Sailor Moon has that potential regardless of the Guardian.

Their ability to detect danger is impaired when they cannot be aware of it before it happens. They have never faced Ren or OS Super Bushin before. Therefore they have no idea of the power he has or how dangerous he is until spears erupt from the floor. He is simply a man holding an odd looking spear.

That's not true; Sailor Moon and her allies had no clue what to expect from Sailor Galaxia and her minions. Up to that time they didn't even know that other Sailor Soldiers other than the one's in the solar system even existed.

If he means to do her harm, a man with a spear is going to be treated like a man threatening to blow up the planet. Why? Because at this point as ESM she's had experience of underestimating opponents, she'd had experience with dealing with the unknown and it usually has ended badly. She's going to be expecting him to be holding back, and will be ready for anything.

 

[Gelgarin]

That's not really what omnipotence means.

Also; it's not circular reasoning. Unlike Goku, Rincewind's survivability actually has a canonical explanation contained within the source text. He is the unknowing and unwilling champion of The Lady, (the most powerful deity in the multiverse since everyone on every world secretly believes in her). She is the reason why Rincewind has stayed alive all this time, and she will continue to be for as long as he remains ignorant of her influence and continues to believe that everything that happens to him is just bad luck.

 

[Remix]

I've established several times that Sailor Moon's attacks are also instant. She was able to subconsciously sense that her comrades where in danger; and this was in civilian form.

Assuming that whatever the fuck species Sailor Moon is has a brain that works in similar ways to a human brain, some time must pass in between her brain going "shit I am in danger." to "I must use [insert instant defensive power here]" the power might take effect instantly, but some time must pass for her to decide to use it. Sailor Moon's reaction time isn't the same thing as her speed.

Where's the proof that Togen Kyou can pierce or negate an shield/attack capable of blowing a star apart? Sailor Moon has that potential regardless of the Guardian.

OK, Golem van be considered an energy sheild stronger than Spirit of Fire. Spirit of Fire survived a Supernova. Tougen Kyou peirced Golem.

I don't have anything better than that because Shaman King's writing didn't need enemies to be powerful enough to blow up celestial bodies in order to be threatening.

That's not true; Sailor Moon and her allies had no clue what to expect from Sailor Galaxia and her minions. Up to that time they didn't even know that other Sailor Soldiers other than the one's in the solar system even existed.

However, they would have had more of an idea about how powerful she is beforehand, even if it was just in terms of "she is super amazingly powerful". Ren, they have no information on. He is just a man with a funny looking spear.

If he means to do her harm, a man with a spear is going to be treated like a man threatening to blow up the planet. Why? Because at this point as ESM she's had experience of underestimating opponents, she'd had experience with dealing with the unknown and it usually has ended badly. She's going to be expecting him to be holding back, and will be ready for anything.

Even if she thinks Ren could blow up a planet, she's powerless to stop Tougen Kyou. If she survives it, she's going to be injured and have to drop her defences (I'm assuming Moon can't create her awesome shield whils she's reparing her internal organs), allowing Ren end her with Shishen Tougen Kyou.

 

[Барбоса]

Unknowingly or not, his victory would be due not to his own powers but to the interference of an all-powerful being, which could be argued as contravening the rules in two ways - omnipotence and being more than one character.

 

[Gelgarin]

That reasoning would similarly disqualify Sailor Moon from her own competition.

 

[Bernkastel]

Assuming that whatever the fuck species Sailor Moon is has a brain that works in similar ways to a human brain, some time must pass in between her brain going "shit I am in danger." to "I must use [insert instant defensive power here]" the power might take effect instantly, but some time must pass for her to decide to use it. Sailor Moon's reaction time isn't the same thing as her speed.

If she suspects that the man standing in front of her holding a spear is not only trying to hurt her, but is also holding back, the instant he thrusts his sword into the ground [you didn't even tell me that part] her shield is up.

OK, Golem van be considered an energy sheild stronger than Spirit of Fire. Spirit of Fire survived a Supernova. Tougen Kyou peirced Golem.

And did he survive? I read on the Shaman King wiki that he can regenerate.

However, they would have had more of an idea about how powerful she is beforehand, even if it was just in terms of "she is super amazingly powerful". Ren, they have no information on. He is just a man with a funny looking spear.

In that case you don't think she'd know a bit about him and his abilities? That would put her even more on edge.

Even if she thinks Ren could blow up a planet, she's powerless to stop Tougen Kyou. If she survives it, she's going to be injured and have to drop her defences (I'm assuming Moon can't create her awesome shield whils she's reparing her internal organs), allowing Ren end her with Shishen Tougen Kyou.

Sailor Moon took a planet destroying attack with no defense, was injured, but still had enough stamina and power left to create a shield that not only stopped a charging Galaxia [someone who rivals her power while healthy], but her soul snatching attack as well.

If she survives and Ren tries a counterattack all Sailor Moon has to do is shout "Sailor Moon Crystal Power" and it would wipe him out, unless he's capable of using Oversoul to protect himself instantly.

 

[Барбоса]

Is there a difference between divinely given and divinely wielded?