Echelon's Mini Game: Defeat Sailor Moon and win cool prizes

[Bernkastel]

I'm going to get started on this early. Again, I'm going to use Tao Ren. and I am going to make one thing perfectly fucking clear before I do.

Eternal Sailor Moon is not moving at any speed within 6 orders of magnitude of the speed of light. To explain this, it's time for maths, boys and girls.

Mass is not constant. You may think it is, but it's not. The only reason that it seems that way is because nothing you can do can affect it in any meaningful way (other than dieting, which isn't what I'm talking about). No, in fact your mass increases the faster you travel. This happens because space and time is a whole lot more complicated than most people can fathom. You might be wondering why that doesn't affect you day to day. The reason is because you're not travelling fast enough. How fast do you have to travel? Well, let me show you the equation:

M = m0/sqrt(1 - (v^2/c^2))

This means that your relativistic mass is equal to your rest mass (which for Moon is estimated at 110 lbs, or 50 kg) divided by the square root of 1 minus your current speed (v) divided by the square of speed of light (c, roughly 300,000,000 meters per second).

At any given moment we (and Sailor Moon, assuming she's on earth) are travelling at 30,000 meters per second. That's only 0.0001% of the speed of light.

But to plug it into the formula:

M = 50/sqrt(1 - (900,000,000/90,000,000,000,000,000))
M = 50/sqrt(1 - (9/900,000,000))

By cancelling out the zeros, you can see that Moon's relativistic mass is equal to 50 kg divided by root 1 minus a fraction so small that it can be ignored. The square root of 1 is 1. Therefore her relativistic mass at earthlike speeds is equal to 50 kgs. However, Sailor Moon can travel far faster than the earth. What happens then? Well that's simple. Here's a picture.

What that shows is something called an asymptote, and what you can see happening as x approaches 0 (i.e. increasing towards infinity) is what happens to sailor moon's mass. As the figures for v and c get closer, the figure for v^2/c^2 gets closer to 1 (just like 3/4 is closer to 1 than 1/4) and thus the square root of 1 minus the fraction gets closer to 0. This means that the rest mass gets divided by a smaller number and thus increases (just like 1/0.5 is bigger than 1/5). You've probably noticed that they never actually reach 0 though. That's because dividing by zero is something you just don't do. Maths fucks up when you divide by 0.

But that's OK, because it's impossible to make her speed equal to the speed of light because the mass as shown, mass rapidly increases the closer you get to the speed of light. When she's travelling at 90% of the speed of light, she weighs ~100 kg, at 97% that's doubled again to ~ 200 kg. At 99.9% of the speed of light she's at over 1,000 kg.

And here's where it becomes impossible for Sailor Moon to travel faster than the speed of light. There isn't enough energy in the universe for an object with mass to reach lightspeed. As the mass increases the energy required to accelerate it has to increase as well. As mass approaches infinity, so does the energy required to move a nigh infinite mass. According to the laws of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created or destroyed. It follows therefore that Sailor Moon cannot generate the infinite amount of energy required to travel at or above lightspeed. If the laws of Thermodynamics and relativity didn't apply in Sailor Moon's world, the universe would be fundamentally different, which it isn't beyond having magical girls in it.

I'm not, however Tastycles so I'm not even going to try to get into how fucked up spacetime gets when travelling that fast beyond "you get heavy enough to crush yourself with your own weight". I've probably made a few errors in my explanation too (this shit's complicated) but it's right in the essentials.

I am not accepting the speed of plot, so speed feats requiring travel between locations that cannot be easily found on a map of Japan (or if I'm feeling generous, an atlas) can fuck right off. Any objections?

Lets see what I can do for "real world" speed. Her enemies were all seen moving at high speeds; for example Sailor Lead Crow moved from the atmosphere above the Tokyo Minato ward to the Hikawa Shrine [a distance of several miles] instantly. Sailor Mars was able to move from the Motoazabu high school to the shrine [a distance of about 1 mile] in a matter of seconds, and Sailor Moon was also able to replicate the same feat, but she got there instantly, and she was already in attack mode.

Spoiler

As far as the rest of that post, I'm going to nullify that. The other feats I gave you are feasible lengths from actual places that can be found on any map of the Milky Way. Sailor Moon is a magical girl that can can control time and space, what other reason do you need to justify that she can move faster than the laws of human physics?

 

[Gelgarin]

Translation: A wizard did it.

 

[Bernkastel]

Translation: A wizard did it.

That's what a magical girl is, basically, in Japanese terms. Ever heard of Sally the Witch? She was one of Sailor Moon's predecessors.

 

[Gelgarin]

I'm sure you said earlier that Sailor Moon only gained the power to control time and space in her final form. Now it seems that she can rewrite the entire universe in form three. Which is it?

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm sure you said earlier that Sailor Moon only gained the power to control time and space in her final form. Now it seems that she can rewrite the entire universe in form three. Which is it?

In layman's terms both, but I'll go into further detail when I reveal that last feat. As far actually tearing open space and dimensions and manipulating time, she only does that as Sailor Cosmos, so if you want to try and use that against her you can.

 

[Gelgarin]

Don't need to; she won't be able to do it against my opponent. Round 4 I have somebody serious lined up.

Round 3 however I intend to win with somebody considerably less powerful than every character thus far suggested, including Hulk Hogan and Pinkie Pie.

 

[Bernkastel]

Don't need to; she won't be able to do it against my opponent. Round 4 I have somebody serious lined up.

Round 3 however I intend to win with somebody considerably less powerful than every character thus far suggested, including Hulk Hogan and Pinkie Pie.

I look forward to it. I'd rather have a good debate with someone choosing an opponent close to her power, rather than someone just choosing a universe buster.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

Question:

When do we receive our cool prizes?

 

[Bernkastel]

Question:

When do we receive our cool prizes?

I'll be working on a few of those today, and we'll resume Round 3 tomorrow.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

Cool.

 

[Remix]

Lets see what I can do for "real world" speed. Her enemies were all seen moving at high speeds; for example Sailor Lead Crow moved from the atmosphere above the Tokyo Minato ward to the Hikawa Shrine [a distance of several miles] instantly. Sailor Mars was able to move from the Motoazabu high school to the shrine [a distance of about 1 mile] in a matter of seconds, and Sailor Moon was also able to replicate the same feat, but she got there instantly, and she was already in attack mode.

Spoiler

As far as the rest of that post, I'm going to nullify that. The other feats I gave you are feasible lengths from actual places that can be found on any map of the Milky Way. Sailor Moon is a magical girl that can can control time and space, what other reason do you need to justify that she can move faster than the laws of human physics?

The fact that she lives in a universe that is similar to this one by design requires the laws of physics of that universe to be the same as for this one. If they were not the same, your measurements for distance would become totally useless. The laws of physics aren't benchmarks or guidelines. They are absolute.

And for speeds I'm ignoring the one referencing the atmosphere, because that's not on any maps, as well as the one involving instant travelling, because to work out a speed would require division by zero again and that's still a nono. So, that leaves her travelling one mile in "a matter of seconds". For ease of maths, I'm going to say it took 10 seconds, giving her a reasonable top speed of 360 mph. Since that's her top speed, I'm still going to knock it down to half that as a cruising speed. After all, she isn't looking to get somewhere fast, she's looking for her opponent. You wouldn't drive like you were trying to get your wife who just broke her water to a hospital if you were looking for your daughter who hadn't come home from school that day.

Now that I've sorted the speed, it's time to sort the battlefield. Ren Tao is an intelligent and perceptive guy. He has more than one feat where he works something out instantly as soon as he sees it. Eternal Sailor Moon has wings. Because he will know she is his opponent (he has a magical plot pager that tells him who he has to fight) and has wings he'll quickly put two and two together amd determine that she can fly and GTFO of open space to nullify that advantage. In Tokyo, the best place to go to get out of open space is inside a building. Because Sailor Moon wouldn't casually drop a building on someone intentionally just because they happened to be in there at the time she would go in after him. If the best you've got of her intentionally harming civilians is sending someone through a few buildings, that's not going to cut it here. There's a difference between dropping a bomb on a school, and dropping a bomb on a military installation, but inadvertently doing major damage to a nearby school.

Agreed?

 

[Bernkastel]

The fact that she lives in a universe that is similar to this one by design requires the laws of physics of that universe to be the same as for this one. If they were not the same, your measurements for distance would become totally useless. The laws of physics aren't benchmarks or guidelines. They are absolute.

And for speeds I'm ignoring the one referencing the atmosphere, because that's not on any maps, as well as the one involving instant travelling, because to work out a speed would require division by zero again and that's still a nono. So, that leaves her travelling one mile in "a matter of seconds". For ease of maths, I'm going to say it took 10 seconds, giving her a reasonable top speed of 360 mph. Since that's her top speed, I'm still going to knock it down to half that as a cruising speed. After all, she isn't looking to get somewhere fast, she's looking for her opponent. You wouldn't drive like you were trying to get your wife who just broke her water to a hospital if you were looking for your daughter who hadn't come home from school that day.

Now that I've sorted the speed, it's time to sort the battlefield. Ren Tao is an intelligent and perceptive guy. He has more than one feat where he works something out instantly as soon as he sees it. Eternal Sailor Moon has wings. Because he will know she is his opponent (he has a magical plot pager that tells him who he has to fight) and has wings he'll quickly put two and two together amd determine that she can fly and GTFO of open space to nullify that advantage. In Tokyo, the best place to go to get out of open space is inside a building. Because Sailor Moon wouldn't casually drop a building on someone intentionally just because they happened to be in there at the time she would go in after him. If the best you've got of her intentionally harming civilians is sending someone through a few buildings, that's not going to cut it here. There's a difference between dropping a bomb on a school, and dropping a bomb on a military installation, but inadvertently doing major damage to a nearby school.

Agreed?

She can sense when her allies are in trouble [thought I already established this] and she most certainly flew to the shrine at max power. The enemy already had Sailor Mars in her grasp and was going to kill her by the time Sailor Moon sensed the danger. Not only did she get there fast enough to save Sailor Mars, but the enemy still had her in its grasp. I'm thinking more like 1 to 2 seconds.

And just remember you're trying to bring physics governed by human laws to judge someone that isn't even human. In the Sailor Moon verse all life is controlled by the Galaxy Cauldron, so the laws of the universe are governed by the ruler of the Cauldron, who is Sailor Moon. Don't forget that.

 

[Remix]

She can sense when her allies are in trouble [thought I already established this] and she most certainly flew to the shrine at max power. The enemy already had Sailor Mars in her grasp and was going to kill her by the time Sailor Moon sensed the danger. Not only did she get there fast enough to save Sailor Mars, but the enemy still had her in its grasp. I'm thinking more like 1 to 2 seconds.

Unless you've got some manga based evidence, your numbers are no better than mine. But her actual speed doesn't matter much. Ren's on foot, how much faster she is isn't especially important.

And just remember you're trying to bring physics governed by human laws to judge someone that isn't even human. In the Sailor Moon verse all life is controlled by the Galaxy Cauldron, so the laws of the universe are governed by the ruler of the Cauldron, who is Sailor Moon. Don't forget that.

Maths is universal. Physics affects someone from the moon just as much as it affects humans and celestial bodies. If moon rewrites the laws of physics, her universe changes beyond recognition. She isn't going to do that. She protects the damn thing for crying out loud.

So, do I take it that you have no objection to this fight taking place indoors?

 

[Gelgarin]

Physics is not governed by humans.

And just remember you're trying to bring physics governed by human laws to judge someone that isn't even human. In the Sailor Moon verse all life is controlled by the Galaxy Cauldron, so the laws of the universe are governed by the ruler of the Cauldron, who is Sailor Moon. Don't forget that.

Also; this appears to be a concession that Sailor Moon pretty much automatically loses any contest not taking place inside her own universe.

 

[Bernkastel]

Physics is not governed by humans.

There's plenty of stuff about physics that we don't know, nor understand; it's changing nearly all the time. All we can observe is the little that we can see from our little blue bubble.

As far as I'm concerned for this mini game real world physics is the same as physics defined by cosmic forces. Sailor Moon breaks the light barrier? Maybe it's because the Galaxy Cauldron and the Lamdba power governed it to be so.

 

[Bernkastel]

Also; this appears to be a concession that Sailor Moon pretty much automatically loses any contest not taking place inside her own universe.

How So?

 

[Gelgarin]

There's plenty of stuff about physics that we don't know, nor understand; it's changing nearly all the time. All we can observe is the little that we can see from our little blue bubble.

Isn't this pretty much the go to argument of creationists with a couple of words changed?

 

[Gelgarin]

How So?

Because you just said that she can violate the laws of physics because the magical cauldron of plot convenience says so. I'm pretty certain that in... say... the real world, there is no magical cauldron.

There is no magical cauldron is the Pokemon world, or the world of Yu-Gi-Oh or any any other fictitious continuity outside of Sailor Moon. As such Sailor Moon must surely lose her physics violating powers [read: all of them] when existing in another universe.

In other words; on neutral territory she's a highschool girl with a poor IQ and nothing more. I could probably kick her ass.

 

[Remix]

There's plenty of stuff about physics that we don't know, nor understand; it's changing nearly all the time. All we can observe is the little that we can see from our little blue bubble.

Yes, and we can see pretty fucking far. It's also based on observation and well proven maths, not what we make up and stick to.

As far as I'm concerned for this mini game real world physics is the same as physics defined by cosmic forces. Sailor Moon breaks the light barrier? Maybe it's because the Galaxy Cauldron and the Lamdba power governed it to be so.

Sailor moon's universe has the same physics as our universe otherwise she would not live in 20th century Tokyo. If any of the fundamental forces were different the universe would be unrecognisabe. Moon travels faster than light because of lazy writing and poor research. Fans don't question I because they don't understand physics either.

Now, can you agree that Eternal Sailor Moon steps into a building that Tao Ren is in so I can end this?

 

[Bernkastel]

Unless you've got some manga based evidence, your numbers are no better than mine. But her actual speed doesn't matter much. Ren's on foot, how much faster she is isn't especially important.

I've shown you plenty of manga based evidence of exactly what you wanted; Sailor Moon moving at super speeds from one area shown on an Earth map to another.

Maths is universal. Physics affects someone from the moon just as much as it affects humans and celestial bodies. If moon rewrites the laws of physics, her universe changes beyond recognition. She isn't going to do that. She protects the damn thing for crying out loud.

So, do I take it that you have no objection to this fight taking place indoors?

If that were true, according to real world physics, the universe would have been erased when 6 Sailor Soldiers sped through space at speeds much faster than light; but yet it didn't. Why? Because the cosmic force of the Sailor Moon verse the Lambda power, keeps it from coming apart.

I probably should have said the Lambda controls physics instead of Sailor Moon, as she's tied to that power as well.

 

[Remix]

I've shown you plenty of manga based evidence of exactly what you wanted; Sailor Moon moving at super speeds from one area shown on an Earth map to another.

We have distance but no exact timeframe beyond you saying a matter of seconds. Ten is as arbitrary as one.

If that were true, according to real world physics, the universe would have been erased when 6 Sailor Soldiers sped through space at speeds much faster than light; but yet it didn't. Why? Because the cosmic force of the Sailor Moon verse the Lambda power, keeps it from coming apart.

Or the Mangaka is an idiot when it comes to physics. I reject travel at the speed of plot. You can count it, I will not.

 

[Bernkastel]

Because you just said that she can violate the laws of physics because the magical cauldron of plot convenience says so. I'm pretty certain that in... say... the real world, there is no magical cauldron.

There is no magical cauldron is the Pokemon world, or the world of Yu-Gi-Oh or any any other fictitious continuity outside of Sailor Moon. As such Sailor Moon must surely lose her physics violating powers [read: all of them] when existing in another universe.

In other words; on neutral territory she's a highschool girl with a poor IQ and nothing more. I could probably kick her ass.

Those verse's are not governed by real world physics either. Arceus can break the time/space barrier just as easily as she can. And a Shadow Game dimension which traps people for all eternity? Give me a break.

Seems like both of you are trying to grasp at straws here trying to bring real world physics at your convenience. No anime or manga world is like like the real world, there's always something that we know to be real that gets broken.

How about we create an omni-verse where anything can go; oh wait... that's what I've been doing until you two tired to bring real world physics into this.

 

[The Crock]

That's just as ridiculous, though. You can't use a universe in which Sailor Moon can do whatever the fuck she wants to your advantage, if they can't point out the obvious flaws with that thought process. If Sailor Moon is supposed to live in the "real world," then shouldn't real world physics apply to her?

 

[Gelgarin]

Exactly what physical laws does Arceus violate?

 

[Bernkastel]

We have distance but no exact timeframe beyond you saying a matter of seconds. Ten is as arbitrary as one.

I've already explained the context of those scans I posted; based on your logic the enemy must have had a nice chat with everyone, waiting for Sailor Moon to get there and kill her.

Or the Mangaka is an idiot when it comes to physics. I reject travel at the speed of plot. You can count it, I will not.

My mini game, my rules. I think we just settled that. I'll be fair with you, but I won't play by your rules.