Candice vs Beth Feud

[Bernkastel]

Here are some excerpts from an ongoing conversation I'm having with another guy on another forum on the same topic (whose a very insightful poster by the way) on the subject of Candice vs Beth

Echelon wrote:
I see it as when Candice successfully defends her title against Beth, it will show everyone and hopefully convince the people that still don't think that Candice is a credible champion that she deserves to keep the belt and she deserves to be at main event status. And what happens to Beth? She challenges for the belt again, and this times takes it from Candice, because the way I see it is that if Beth takes the belt at the next PPV then people will forget about Candice, and she'll will fade away into the mid card. Because she'll try for her rematch, and since she never was established or over with the crowd, the fans won't care. They'll side with Beth regardless if she's a heel or not, just to keep Candice away from the belt.

With that being said, I think Candice WILL defeat beth the first time around, then WWE will just build Beth back up, and if there is any doubt the second time that Beth can beat Candice, then Beth can use that to get herself over and use that against the fans and shove it back into their faces when she DOES beat Candice, getting heat and getter herself over.

So potentially I would rather see Candice retain and possibly get over (because I don't think WWE will make Candice into the John Cena of the womens division) because WWE can always built Beth back up, beth as a much better chance of getting of than Candice does, 1) because she has the skills, only a true mark wouldn't know of Beth's background 2) she just has the "look" the true look of a champion. To be honest, Candice looks weak, beth doesn't (and I'm not talking about in ring skills) I'm talking about actual look AND personality.

You basically feel the same way everyone else does. Candice will be the one to benefit the most from this upcoming fued. It is a way to get Candice over. Beth is in the equation to propel Candice. You want Candice to retain her title against Beth b/c this would help Candice get over and gain recognition as a wrestler and a credible/deserving champion.

Your thoughts on Beth, however, arent what I'd call plausible. I dont think Beth has been booked in this fued to get built up and eventually get put over Candice. Thats not what Jazz, Molly, and Victoria were used for. Beth may have the tools, but the WWE will not capitilize on her abilities in order to put her over Candice. The whole point of the fued is getting Candice over. Jazz, Molly, and Victoria's characters werent revived unless they were used to get someone else over. The same EXACt thing will happen to Beth. Going into this fued...her longterm purpose is much like Jazz, Molly, and Victoria. Thats depressing considering she has tons more talent than Candice Michelle.

In the end...no ones opinion will automatically change after this fued. Just b/c Candice retains against Beth, people arent going to think she is a credible champion or deserving. Thats surely the purpose of the booking, but its easier said than done. If the work doesnt reflect her credibility than people wont accept that. Unless she makes drastic improvements in her ring work, there is still going to be a large poriton of the WC that resents her. I'll surely be one.

Echelon wrote:
I'm guessing this is a reply to my post, you would rather rob WWE of a potential main eventer in Candice by having her squashed by Beth rather than having Beth job ONCE to Candice, which hopefully helps establish Candice with the fans. Beth can always win the title in the rematch, because like you said she just has that look, strong and dominant.

And for Candice to be able to hold back Beth and retain her title would show that she IS Main event worthy, and not some transitional fluke champion. And I highly doubt any of the fans with ever take Candice seriously if she repeatably gets destroyed by Beth.

The Womens Division only has 3 main eventers (Excluding Melina and Candice) and it sure would get boring really quickly to see Jillian vs Mickie vs Beth over and over again for the title in the same storyline

Beth will certainly job more than "ONCE". Beth is being used to get Candice over. They will not accomplish that in ONE match. Candice will defeat Beth as many times as its required to push Candice over her. Yes, Beth can win the title in the rematch like Jazz, Molly, or Victoria...but what happens after the rematch? Candice gets the title back. Beth isnt being built up to leave the fued with the title or the momentum. She gets burried.

Its all pretty pointless to me. They're trying with Candice and to her credit she is giving them everything they ask for...but she really isnt getting anywhere. Why rob the WWE of a potential draw in Beth by having her burried under Candice Michelle? Why jeporadize Beth's longevity to get Candice over? Why not simply wait until Candice Michelle has honed all of her talents to push her?

Candice isnt going to reach that "main event" status that your describing by simply working a bunch of fueds where she beats the odds. Look at Trish and Lita and the development it took to get them over. Look at Mickie and Melina and the development it took to get them over. Candice hasnt even accomplished half of what they have, yet the bookers are blindly pushing her as if she has the same talent that those 4 women have. Its bogus.

Echelon wrote:
The other problem is Beth, she's not over, she can't entertain a large crowd. I seen her promos, they were very lackluster, so unless Beth has found a way to increase her level of charisma, we're going to end up with Another Candice as champ (except she can wrestle, but its not good enough, don't believe me? Ask Jazz, ask Molly, ask Victoria)

I know this doenst have much to do with the Candice/Beth fued discussion, but I couldnt help but reply to this comment.

Beth's not over...your right, but she has a lot more potential to get over than Candice does. She cant entertain a large crowd? How do you know that? Yes, OVW has a crowd of a few hundred people, but if she can keep those few hundred entertained, that translates very well considering there are people that cant even do that. Her promos are actually damn good. She is a really solid mic worker. If the WWE simply gives her the opportunity she'll certainly deliver. And no, wrestling isnt good enough, but Beth has a hell of a lot more charisma and speaking/acting ability than Candice as well. On top of that, she isnt that bad on the eyes.

Beth may have the tools, but the WWE will not capitilize on her abilities in order to put her over Candice. The whole point of the fued is getting Candice over.

I totally agree, 100%

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Jazz, Molly, and Victoria's characters werent revived unless they were used to get someone else over. The same EXACt thing will happen to Beth. Going into this fued...her longterm purpose is much like Jazz, Molly, and Victoria. Thats depressing considering she has tons more talent than Candice Michelle.

I can see Beth being used to further Candice, but in the end would the majority of people care? (I would) But I'm trying to look from a standpoint of a typical WWE fan, and most typical WWE fans wouldn't care (To most people the womens division is dead, which isn't true, most most of the WWE fans see it that way.) Beth does have more talent than Candice to an extent, but does she have the skills to carry the division? No, Beth does not. Candice was at least built up, sloppily, but built up enough to the point where the fans could picture her with the belt. If Beth is just being built up to to better Candice, then I doubt WWE will give her the same treatment they gave Candice when Candice was being built up for her title run.

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Just b/c Candice retains against Beth, people arent going to think she is a credible champion or deserving. Beth will certainly job more than "ONCE". They will not accomplish that in ONE match. Candice will defeat Beth as many times as its required to push Candice over her. Yes, Beth can win the title in the rematch like Jazz, Molly, or Victoria...but what happens after the rematch? Candice gets the title back. Beth isnt being built up to leave the fued with the title or the momentum. She gets burried.

This is a good point, and its something I hadn't really thought of. Beth isn't established or over at all either, she doesn't even draw heat. And I doubt she can get over in a period of just a few weeks, and especially in a scenario where most of the fans won't take her seriously or listen to what she as to say (they didn't pay to see her, they didn't come to RAW to hear her talk.) The most logical outcome is for beth to be buried and for another diva (most likely Jillian, the other Heel on Raw) to take Beth's place.

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Its all pretty pointless to me. They're trying with Candice and to her credit she is giving them everything they ask for...but she really isnt getting anywhere. Why rob the WWE of a potential draw in Beth by having her burried under Candice Michelle? Why jeporadize Beth's longevity to get Candice over? Why not simply wait until Candice Michelle has honed all of her talents to push her?

Well if it wasn't Beth trying to get Candice over, then WWE would have used Jillian, and I just got done arguing that I would rather not see Jillian become the jobber of RAW. If beth gets buried the worst that happens is she goes back down and feuds with Mickie and whatnot (And since Beth, Mickie, and Jillian are all pretty much equals, whats the problem?) And besides, If I had to choose between Beth or Jillian, I would sacrifice Beth a hundred times over before I sacrifice Jillian Hall (IMO she has the most potential out of any woman in WWE).

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Candice isnt going to reach that "main event" status that your describing by simply working a bunch of fueds where she beats the odds. Look at Trish and Lita and the development it took to get them over. Look at Mickie and Melina and the development it took to get them over. Candice hasnt even accomplished half of what they have, yet the bookers are blindly pushing her as if she has the same talent that those 4 women have. Its bogus.

I agree, it bullshit, Candice gets to wear the strap and she doesn't even draw a reaction from the crowd, even as a face. Now we're faced with Candice vs Beth, and really Beth can't draw either, so what a bind were in now. Like you said, the logical thing to do would be to job Beth, then when Candice is at the point where she shows some improvement in the ring, you bring in Jillian Hall (quite possibly the only heel diva to get a descent reaction from the crowd) to feud with Candice and start a mainstream storyline for the title, which will give Candice some practice went it comes to delivering promos (thats assuming WWE doesn't fuck up their storyline with bad writing.)

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Beth's not over...your right, but she has a lot more potential to get over than Candice does.

how is that?

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How do you know that? Yes, OVW has a crowd of a few hundred people, but if she can keep those few hundred entertained, that translates very well considering there are people that cant even do that.

I don't, but considering that Melina couldn't get fully over with the crowd during her title run, and many people believe that she has the best mic skills of the divas right now (I don't), do you really think that Beth has a chance to get over in a few short weeks in front of a crowd where most of the people in attendance probably won't really paying all that much attention to her?

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Beth has a hell of a lot more charisma and speaking/acting ability than Candice as well. On top of that, she isnt that bad on the eyes

to quote you, how do you know that? Since Candice hasn't even shown us what she can do yet?

Echelon wrote:
I can see Beth being used to further Candice, but in the end would the majority of people care? (I would) But I'm trying to look from a standpoint of a typical WWE fan, and most typical WWE fans wouldn't care (To most people the womens division is dead, which isn't true, most most of the WWE fans see it that way.) Beth does have more talent than Candice to an extent, but does she have the skills to carry the division? No, Beth does not. Candice was at least built up, sloppily, but built up enough to the point where the fans could picture her with the belt. If Beth is just being built up to to better Candice, then I doubt WWE will give her the same treatment they gave Candice when Candice was being built up for her title run.

The typical WWE fan doesnt care about Candice. Thats evident.

Beth doesnt have the skills to carry the division. But if your not Trish or Lita...exactly who does. All the girls need help and support from other characters to make the division work. No individual diva on RAW at this point in thier career could single handedly carry the division.

Beth has the skills to become an important focal point of the division. With a little more character development...she has the ability to be a champion and someone that people can see with the title...moreso than Candice Michelle. Candice doesnt have the skills to carry the division. To assume she does is taking it a little too far. She has the title, but you see the least of her out of all the divas. She is carrying the title and the recognition as the champion of the division, yet she has the smallest role. She certainly doesnt have the skills to carry the division despite the WWE hoping that she could.

Echelon wrote:
This is a good point, and its something I hadn't really thought of. Beth isn't established or over at all either, she doesn't even draw heat. And I doubt she can get over in a period of just a few weeks, and especially in a scenario where most of the fans won't take her seriously or listen to what she as to say (they didn't pay to see her, they didn't come to RAW to hear her talk.) The most logical outcome is for beth to be buried and for another diva (most likely Jillian, the other Heel on Raw) to take Beth's place.

Again...thats benefitting Candice Michelle....thats the whole reason why people resent her. Talent (great talent) is being burried to put her over. Beth gets burried...Jillian takes her place...Jillian gets burried...Katie Lea takes her place...etc. Thats bullshit. Thats logical, but its bullshit. Considering that all energy put into Candice thus far hasnt really helped her out, the fact that they're ready to jump at an opportunity to continue her push is bizarre. Why burry Beth, Jillian, or any other talent under Candice when their chances of being successful are just as high if not higher?

Echelon wrote:
Well if it wasn't Beth trying to get Candice over, then WWE would have used Jillian, and I just got done arguing that I would rather not see Jillian become the jobber of RAW. If beth gets buried the worst that happens is she goes back down and feuds with Mickie and whatnot (And since Beth, Mickie, and Jillian are all pretty much equals, whats the problem?) And besides, If I had to choose between Beth or Jillian, I would sacrifice Beth a hundred times over before I sacrifice Jillian Hall (IMO she has the most potential out of any woman in WWE).

How about they not burry anyone under Candice? How about they take the strap off Candice and abandon this whole "Trish #2" thing they're trying and failing miserably to pull off?

Echelon wrote:
Like you said, the logical thing to do would be to job Beth, then when Candice is at the point where she shows some improvement in the ring, you bring in Jillian Hall (quite possibly the only heel diva to get a descent reaction from the crowd) to feud with Candice and start a mainstream storyline for the title, which will give Candice some practice went it comes to delivering promos (thats assuming WWE doesn't fuck up their storyline with bad writing.)

I didnt say that was logical...I simply implied that it was likely that thats what they'll do. Thats not what I want to happen or what I think makes sense...it's simply what the WWE seems to have planned. Either way, I'm not sure how either Beth or Jillian will help Candice get over when Candice doesnt have the tools to get over herself. Just b/c the WWE is willing to exhaust every talent in the division to get her over doesnt mean that its going to happen. Thats why she hasnt gotten anywhere thus far.

Echelon wrote:
how is that?

She has the wrestling ability, the speaking/acting ability, the charisma, a unique look, and a character that could be built up easily. Candice lacks the wrestling ability, the speaking/acting ability, the natural charisma, and any real "character". Which is why at this point, both are pretty even in the reactions they get from the crowd. Beth draws minimal heat (for instance on RAW tonight)...and Candice draws the minimal face pop (she is the smallest face draw on RAW). Thing is...Beth has only been getting developed for the past few weeks...and Candice has been around working angles and getting pushed for a few years.

Echelon wrote:
I don't, but considering that Melina couldn't get fully over with the crowd during her title run, and many people believe that she has the best mic skills of the divas right now (I don't), do you really think that Beth has a chance to get over in a few short weeks in front of a crowd where most of the people in attendance probably won't really paying all that much attention to her?

Melina didnt draw "monster" heel heat, but she was over as a heel. When working with Mickie, Maria, and Candice, the crowd responded to her. She was over. Beth seems to be doing well for herself. She got a response when she eliminated Melina on RAW after the tag match. She got a response when she eliminated Michelle in the Battle Royal. She got a response when she attacked Maria last week. She got a response when she beat up Maria this week and cut her promo. No, she isnt over yet, but by building her character like they're doing and having her demolish Candice in a fued...I think she'll be over enough to go onto working angles with Mickie (the real face draw on RAW) and having the crowd interested and involved in the fued.

Echelon wrote:
to quote you, how do you know that? Since Candice hasn't even shown us what she can do yet?

Have you just started watching Candice? She has cut promos, done backstage/in-ring segments, and she has worked matches many times before. She lacks mic skills. She isnt natural at all and she seems very uncomfortable. When trying to get the crowd into her matches, she doesnt succeed. The yelling, and jumping, and arm flapping gets 0 repsonse. If she isnt doing a cool move or incorporating 5ex into the match...the audience could care less for it.

Beth on the other hand, like she proved tonight and in OVW (and even when she first debuted and attacked Mickie last year), has speaking and acting ability. She is natural and comfortable/confident on the mic. She has charisma and she makes the match interesting by working her character into the match successfully and choosing the right spots/moves. Beth has tons more potential than Candice. She may not be given the opportunity and energy ever in her career that Candice has been given...but she has more potential to get over.

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Beth doesnt have the skills to carry the division. But if your not Trish or Lita...exactly who does. All the girls need help and support from other characters to make the division work. No individual diva on RAW at this point in thier career could single handedly carry the division.

I agree with you, really no one in the division at this time has the power to carry the division alone. but their are divas that have more potential to carry the division than others. I'm not denying Beth's potential, I've seen her matches in the indies. Beth vs Mschif, Beth vs Danger, those were entertaining matches. But WWE gave us the shaft by putting the title on Candice, a woman who was still a rookie in the ring and had rather bland mic and promo skills.

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Beth has the skills to become an important focal point of the division. With a little more character development...she has the ability to be a champion and someone that people can see with the title...moreso than Candice Michelle.

Again I agree, but I figure Beth has what, 5 or 6 more years (maybe more) in WWE before she quits, surely with only 4 other "main eventers" (I use the term loosely considering) right now, Beth could get over and win the title in that length of time.

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Candice doesnt have the skills to carry the division. To assume she does is taking it a little too far. She has the title, but you see the least of her out of all the divas. She is carrying the title and the recognition as the champion of the division, yet she has the smallest role. She certainly doesnt have the skills to carry the division despite the WWE hoping that she could.

I never assumed she did, and I don't try to say she does, but obviously WWE did, and I guess thats whats their trying to established. WWE shoved Cena down are throats for a long enough period of time, and he got over, I wonder if WWE thinks they can do the same with Candice.

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Why burry Beth, Jillian, or any other talent under Candice when their chances of being successful are just as high if not higher?How about they not burry anyone under Candice? How about they take the strap off Candice and abandon this whole "Trish #2" thing they're trying and failing miserably to pull off?

Why bury Beth or Jillian or Mickie? Because really they don't have a choice. WWE made the decision to put the belt on Candice, knowing FULL WELL that she was shit and didn't have the skills, now there's a good chance that WWE will use the talents of the other divas (Beth's in ring skills, Jillian's promo skills) in an effort to make Candice look as strong as possible, because obviously WWE sees something in Candice that we don't, because why in the hell else would WWE have given her the title in the first place.

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I didnt say that was logical...I simply implied that it was likely that thats what they'll do. Thats not what I want to happen or what I think makes sense...it's simply what the WWE seems to have planned. Either way, I'm not sure how either Beth or Jillian will help Candice get over when Candice doesnt have the tools to get over herself. Just b/c the WWE is willing to exhaust every talent in the division to get her over doesnt mean that its going to happen. Thats why she hasnt gotten anywhere thus far.

But yet WWE will do it, and there's really nothing that we can do to stop it. all our Bitching and complaining won't get WWE to change their minds. This should have been a clear sign of what was to come after Candice retained her title, ending all speculation that she was a transitional champ

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Candice lacks the wrestling ability, the speaking/acting ability, the natural charisma, and any real "character"

If WWE goes through the rounds after burying all the talent they can in an effort to get Candice over, and she's still not over and improved in the slightest, then I expect WWE to have Candice drop the belt then. But if WWE didn't want her champion, then they probably would have put the belt back on Melina before all this, because they probably would have foreseen a problem like this in the future.

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Thing is...Beth has only been getting developed for the past few weeks...and Candice has been around working angles and getting pushed for a few years.

Not really, Candice has been a jobber on Raw the past few years. She may have gotten some victories, but they were over other shit divas like Maria and Ashley (which nobody cared about). Its only recently that WWE started pushing her to the moon. I mean people were shocked when she got a title shot, and they even more shocked when WWE actually put the belt on Candice. So has far as level of development, combined with the level of hatred that some people have for Candice, I'd say Beth and Candice are pretty much equal developmentally wise.

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Have you just started watching Candice? She has cut promos, done backstage/in-ring segments, and she has worked matches many times before. She lacks mic skills. She isnt natural at all and she seems very uncomfortable. When trying to get the crowd into her matches, she doesnt succeed. The yelling, and jumping, and arm flapping gets 0 repsonse. If she isnt doing a cool move or incorporating 5ex into the match...the audience could care less for it.

I've seen her promos, she's shit, but that doesn't mean she can't improve at the slightest. I mean look at Batista, he's got to be the biggest waste of talent on the SD roster. Yet the man has gotten to the point where people don't boo Batista when he tries to deliver a promo, and if Batista can at least get to that stage, then there's at least some hope for Candice.

So I guess the general feeling right now until something new develops, is that WWE has backed themselves into a corner, by giving Candice the belt and expecting her to perform on a main event level when she can't, so my guess is that WWE WILL TRY and sacrifice the other divas and bury them all in an attempt to put Candice over.

Hey, it worked for John Cena, maybe it'll work for Candice.

Oh and apparently, according to some of the other people on the site, Beth is really good at drawing heat. I keep asking where is this heat they talk about, but they just keep dancing around the subject.

So what do you guys think?

 

[SoBe Green]

Honestly I can't sit and read through that entire thing but I did skim over it a bit. I prefer Beth to all of the other divas mostly due to the fact she actually looks like someone who could wrestle. I'm so tired of watching a diva match that is usually held in the middle of the good matches which usually kills the attitude of the show by having to hear little girly screams for 10 minutes. Beth looks like she could hold her own in a real fight. Candice looks like she should be posing for magazine articles. I loved the Beth and Maria match last Monday because it was a lot more real. I don't think I could handle watching Candice throw Beth around and believe it. She'll have to have help or they'll have to introduce some injury to Beth. I do believe they probably will have Candice win a few times first (unfortunately) and then maybe the women can get a more believable champ. Don't get me wrong I love women throwing each other around and climbing all over each other just as much as the next guy. I just like watching matches that are worth watching and I feel Beth is the way to go in that direction.

I've had little sleep so I may go over this later and fix it if it doesn't make sense.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm so tired of watching a diva match that is usually held in the middle of the good matches which usually kills the attitude of the show by having to hear little girly screams for 10 minutes. [

Totally agree

I loved the Beth and Maria match last Monday because it was a lot more real.

how was it more real? Maria got destroyed within a minute by Beth, beth cuts some lackluster promo on how she's going to kill Candice, Candice comes out and watches Beth give Maria another suplex. Beth got a response for her actions, but IMO it wasn't a big enough response to put her over as a believable heel.

I don't think I could handle watching Candice throw Beth around and believe it. She'll have to have help or they'll have to introduce some injury to Beth. I do believe they probably will have Candice win a few times first
(unfortunately) and then maybe the women can get a more believable champ.

I think their just building Beth up just to feed her to Candice, I think their doing all of this just to benefit Candice and Beth is in a lose, lose situation. The reason for this is because WWE is trying to push Candice as the top woman in WWE and she clearly doesn't have the skills, so why guess is that they will try and force feed Candice to us by burying all the talent necessary until Candice either gets over or WWE realizes that Candice just can't draw.

 

[a7xoff]

As far as this feud goes. I hope that it's short and sweet. I know WWE will probably use it to get Candice over, but honestly... I'd much rather see Beth get the belt quickly and beat Candice in the rematch. Then I'd like to see Mickie go for the belt. After all how long has it been since we saw a diva feud with two divas that can wrestle? probably when it was Melina vs Mickie, and honestly I think Beth is better then Melina in the ring. Anyway... Like i said I hope this feud does not last long. No offence to Candice, but improvement is not grounds for a title... It's a step towards it, but unless WWE is trying to make Candice the next Trish or something, it's not really grounds for a title reign when there are others that already had ring skills and have been showing it since their arrival in the WWE Aka: Beth Pheonix

 

[Bobby B]

Watched through the WM 23 Melina vs Ashley match. Its terrible to watch. I don't see how the WWE thinks that putting Women who have trained for quite a few years , and have quite good wrestling ability against Women who have trained for 5 minutes. Its just so bad to watch. For the past couple of years they haven't had much talent on there , but now with Mickie James , Beth , Jillian (actually wrestling now) , Victoria , Melina surely they could actually make a good division. Rather than pit a set of tits against a decent wreslter. Don't see how that would work.

 

[jback]

I think the Canidice/Beth feud is boring and should be over fast. Beth should win and feud with Michelle McCool. Than McCool should win and have a McCool vS Ashley feud. Michelle and Ashley could put on a amzaing feud. Thoes two divas are two of the best in the wwe. Mickie, Victoria, jillian all over rated. Beth is OK, Melina is good, maria is hot!!!, candice is not very good and the rest are just models.

 

[Lil Wes]

I think the Canidice/Beth feud is boring

It just started. Maybe Beth can actually pull a decent match out of Candice.

Beth should win and feud with Michelle McCool.

Agreed on Beth should win. But why in the fuck would they want to stick McCool into the picture when they have Mickie James who is by far the most over diva in the WWE and one hell of a wrestler? Beth/Mickie could be quiet a good feud.

Than McCool should win and have a McCool vS Ashley feud.

Alright,Seriously that would pretty much just bury the Women's Divison along with the title. That would basically be Vince telling all Women "Fuck You". McCool and Ashley are ridiculous in the ring. Did you happen to see WM 23? Ashley is tits & ass with no in ring ability whatsoever same with McCool. That would be like Candice vs Candice.

Michelle and Ashley could put on a amzaing feud.

Amazingly bad?

Mickie, Victoria, jillian all over rated.

Funny how they are by far the top 3 divas in WWE when it comes to in-ring ability....You think they are overrated because you haven't got to see them get their shot(Ex Mickie) Who was a damn good champion.

Beth is OK, Melina is good, maria is hot!!!, candice is not very good and the rest are just models.

Beth is good, Melina is excellent and hot as hell,Maria is shit. She couldn't act or wrestle for 100000000000 dollers,Candice is basically tit's with wrestling/selling skills that make me want to vomit.

 

[.MCH]

I think the Canidice/Beth feud is boring and should be over fast. Beth should win and feud with Michelle McCool. Than McCool should win and have a McCool vS Ashley feud. Michelle and Ashley could put on a amzaing feud. Thoes two divas are two of the best in the wwe. Mickie, Victoria, jillian all over rated. Beth is OK, Melina is good, maria is hot!!!, candice is not very good and the rest are just models.

Are you serious? McCool vs. Ashley? People use some common sense!

I think anyone would rather see Candice as champ then that bullshit!

Most of you might be suprised about the match! These two put on a halfway decent match together!

 

[a7xoff]

I think the Canidice/Beth feud is boring and should be over fast. Beth should win and feud with Michelle McCool. Than McCool should win and have a McCool vS Ashley feud. Michelle and Ashley could put on a amzaing feud. Thoes two divas are two of the best in the wwe. Mickie, Victoria, jillian all over rated. Beth is OK, Melina is good, maria is hot!!!, candice is not very good and the rest are just models.

You want to talk overrated????? alright first of all the Women's title is a Raw belt... Seeing how Ashley is on SD! I don't see that happening... Anyway... Candice is overrated majorly. The fact that she is the Women's Champion is completly disgusts me. As I've said before improvment is not enough for a title, but seriously Candice has minimal in ring ability. She can sell moves though. She's not built to be a wrestler... She fits right in with Torrie Wilson as model divas... They should be on SD!... The wrestlers that have talent aka: Mickie, Beth, Victoria, Melina should be on Raw. So as I mentioned before so this is on topic I hope Beth gets the title and the best thing that could happen after is Candice go to SD!. Beth should then go on to face the "Overrated" Mickie James, since both have in ring talent... So do explain how Mickie and Victoria are overrated sometime kthxbye

 

[.MCH]

You want to talk overrated????? alright first of all the Women's title is a Raw belt... Seeing how Ashley is on SD! I don't see that happening... Anyway... Candice is overrated majorly. The fact that she is the Women's Champion is completly disgusts me. As I've said before improvment is not enough for a title, but seriously Candice has minimal in ring ability. She can sell moves though. She's not built to be a wrestler... She fits right in with Torrie Wilson as model divas... They should be on SD!... The wrestlers that have talent aka: Mickie, Beth, Victoria, Melina should be on Raw. So as I mentioned before so this is on topic I hope Beth gets the title and the best thing that could happen after is Candice go to SD!. Beth should then go on to face the "Overrated" Mickie James, since both have in ring talent... So do explain how Mickie and Victoria are overrated sometime kthxbye

I find this to be true to a certain extent. I agree that Candice is somewhat overrated but I also think she is underrated at times! She goes out there and works her ass off as hard as anybody to challenge her. Like I've said before, she's not on the levels with our Mickie's, Jillians, Victoria's and such but she is getting there. She hasn't had the oppurtunity lately to show what she has done! If you haven't catched her house show matches then you should. Her matches with Melina, Beth, and Jillian were very good. They were given a great amount of time and the fans were crazy for it.

Unfortunately we don't see this on WWE TV, which is why I can see where people would say she cannot wrestle. But I believe if she gets a match with Jillian on RAW or with Melina, etc then you'd see something better outta her. I would wait to judge her because she's better then you saw her last, not including the tag match 3 weeks ago!

I am just waiting for her to break out the UnPrettier on tv that she's been using at house shows to win the match!

 

[a7xoff]

If she breaks out an Unprettier I'll probably believe a little more that she is deserving of the belt. From what I can tell on Raw is that there is not much to be desired in her matches... However if what you say about the house shows are true, then I'll certainly be watching her matches more carefully. I don't doubt anyone on the roster in what he or she can't do, There is always room for improvment so Hell who knows I may be underrating Candice I very well could be. I think I'll wait to see her vs. Beth to deicde

 

[.MCH]

If she breaks out an Unprettier I'll probably believe a little more that she is deserving of the belt. From what I can tell on Raw is that there is not much to be desired in her matches... However if what you say about the house shows are true, then I'll certainly be watching her matches more carefully. I don't doubt anyone on the roster in what he or she can't do, There is always room for improvment so Hell who knows I may be underrating Candice I very well could be. I think I'll wait to see her vs. Beth to deicde

Her UnPrettier looks pretty wicked. There is video of her match with Jillian where she breaks it out. I can post it if you want me to along with her matches against Beth! But I just really hope that Beth brings the best out in Candice in their fued. The match is a guarentee good showdown but let's hope they apply what they do at house shows into their televised work!

 

[Eternal Dragon]

I think the Beth vs Candice feud has the ability to be a great feud. Beth Phoenix is a seasoned veteran in the ring, and is such a perfect contrast to Candice Michelle, the still-learning new-comer, who's Women's Champion. The feud has a Jazz vs Trish feeling to it. Now while I am a Beth fan, and I will be rooting for her at Unforgiven, the fact of the matter is that Candice Michelle will probably win their match. Is that a bad thing? No. I think it's a great way to build up Candice, and hopefully it'll be a good match. I can't belive I'm going to say this, but sometimes I think people bash Candice a bit too much. You need to seperate the Candice you saw in 2005, with the Candice we see now. She is a good wrestler, she is over with the crowd (watch those houseshow matches- you'll be surprised by what you see). Beth Phoenix is an incredibly talented wrestler, with so many different styles, and I have no doubt that she will be a future Women's Champion in the future, same with Jillian Hall.

Now I want to say something before ending this post. I noticed that someone mentioned an Ashley vs Michelle McCool feud before, and while that is a horrible idea, I did want to say something about Michelle. Michelle McCool has trained and learned to wrestle at DSW and OVW, so she is more than T&A. She's done some pretty unique moves in some of her past matches on SD (watch Jillian vs Michelle on SD a few months back, good match). And as for Maria, while she is still not that great in the ring, the good thing about her is that she's so willing to learn, and she works hard to improve. I remember in an interview once she said that on her time off she goes down to OVW and wrestles there, so I respect that a lot. As long as she, and others like Michelle are willing to learn, and do learn, they're cool in my book. Same can't be said for Ashley though... but I don't want to get started on her.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[.MCH]

Here they are:



Candice vs. Jillian: Proof of UnPrettier use:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT1GJQiX0Mg




Candice vs. Beth: All one match in incraments:

Clip One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEDirkrq6EI

Clip Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERAggCXaD_s

Clip Three: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EGZpyFEfms

 

[Skillz]

Those excerpts were just way too long for me to read, especially as the women's division means next to nothing to me. Or to the WWE for that matter. I just want Candice to keep the belt for a long time. And my reason for that is because she's pretty.

Actually, Mickie should win it again. I just love the way she skips to ring. I love it love it love it.

 

[Russo McMahon]

As far as I'm concerned Women's Wrestling has no place in Sports Entertainment today. The matches are usually awful and nobody actually cares about them. The women are only there for eye candy and that's the way they work in Wrestling today.

Still have 'Divas' but put much less emphasis on their matches, and just have them there to do the odd thing on the microphone, or some skits backstage.

Cut out the diva matches, and focus on making interesting feuds and storylines which will help get your ratings up for your flagship show, RAW.

 

[SevinLD]

In all honesty there used to be a line between valet and womens wrestlers. That line no longer exist so I feel that at this point the only divas wrestling should be Mickie, Beth, Victoria (her being on Smackdown is suck f'n bullshit), Melina, Candice (vastly improved so I include her) and honestly from what i've seen that's it. Torrie Wilson does okay always has so maybe include her. I wish they would resign Daffney from WCW. A crazy match between her and insane version Mickie would be gold. Truth be told with Beth and Candice I'm hoping Beth wins quick and has a long title reign. In the end I can only say this, How long did Moolah have that belt??? Be nice to see a dramatic long title reign that will mean so much more when the champ finally loses it.

 

[Bernkastel]

In all honesty there used to be a line between valet and womens wrestlers. That line no longer exist so I feel that at this point the only divas wrestling should be Mickie, Beth, Victoria (her being on Smackdown is suck f'n bullshit), Melina, Candice (vastly improved so I include her) and honestly from what i've seen that's it. Torrie Wilson does okay always has so maybe include her. I wish they would resign Daffney from WCW. A crazy match between her and insane version Mickie would be gold. Truth be told with Beth and Candice I'm hoping Beth wins quick and has a long title reign. In the end I can only say this, How long did Moolah have that belt??? Be nice to see a dramatic long title reign that will mean so much more when the champ finally loses it.

Really, if you think about it, there is still a line between wrestler and valet. WWE has only since been pushing that line by giving the valets title shots (but we all knew that none of them would actually win), but the line remained intact because none of the valets (Ashley, Christy, Maria) won the title. So when WWE decided to give Candice a shot, knowing full well that she wasn't able to be champion, we all though that WWE were just going to feed her to Melina, when that didn't happen and Candice won, all of us were shocked because valets aren't supposed to win the title, they don't have the skills necessary to properly represent the division. So when Candice beat Melina in the rematch, it ended all speculation that Candice was indeed a transitonal Champ and that WWE was actually going to try to shove Candice down our throats in an attempt to get the girl over when she's clearly not in the position to carry the strap. The line between valet and wrestler has only since been broken when WWE gave Candice the title, and has since tried to push her knowing full well that she doesn't have the skills just yet to get over and be successful.

As far as I'm concerned Women's Wrestling has no place in Sports Entertainment today. The matches are usually awful and nobody actually cares about them. The women are only there for eye candy and that's the way they work in Wrestling today.

The matches are aweful, especially today, because many of the women whom WWE hires and sticks into the ring are merely amateurs (not all of them, some of them) who don't have a clue what to do in the ring and they have no idea how to play the crowd. thats why the matches suck.

Still have 'Divas' but put much less emphasis on their matches, and just have them there to do the odd thing on the microphone, or some skits backstage.

The only eye candy diva that gets any type of special attention is Candice. many of the women in WWE are talented and deserve a place on the show, many of them have great mic skills (even beth, whom I never said wasn't talented (for someone else in an earlier post that tried to contradict me) I just said that she hasn't had enough time to get over especially when she's just being hyped only to be buried to Candice. Many of the divas get good reactions from the crowd, including Maria, the only two whom you could argue that don't are Candice, and Beth (because she hasn't been on TV very long) So with that being said, i think that there is just as much emphasis on Talent in the womens division going on as there is on sex appeal.

Cut out the diva matches, and focus on making interesting feuds and storylines which will help get your ratings up for your flagship show, RAW.

If RAW cuts out ALL the divas matches, which are to the point now which the Matches the women of Raw put on are of relatively good quality, odds are there ratings on RAW would drop even lower.

It would be like Smackdown getting rid of their Crusierweight program and replacing it with 30 or 45 extra minutes of Batista or Khali or some other boring segment that no one cares about, the ratings on Smackdown would plummet.

Those excerpts were just way too long for me to read, especially as the women's division means next to nothing to me. Or to the WWE for that matter.

Maybe not to you, but to the WWE? Hmm lets see, they put the belt on a girl that can't perform or wrestle, and now it looks like WWE is going to bury the girls that can wrestle underneath Candice in an attempt to get her over.
If WWE does in fact end up doing this, then I'd pretty much have to agree with you that WWE could care less about the division.

I just want Candice to keep the belt for a long time. And my reason for that is because she's pretty.

And I want Great Khali to keep the belt forever, And my reason for that is because he's is the greatest wrestler of all time!!!!!!!!!

Actually, Mickie should win it again. I just love the way she skips to ring. I love it love it love it.

No actually I want Mark Henry to be the next champ, yeah, he is so fucking dominate, who can stop him? So when Taker gets back Henry will destroy him in route to feuding with Batista, he'll destroy Batista, win the royal rumble, and finally meet the Great Khali in the main event at Wrestlemania 24, greatest match ever!!!!!!!!

[/QUOTE]

 

[SoBe Green]

how was it more real? Maria got destroyed within a minute by Beth, beth cuts some lackluster promo on how she's going to kill Candice, Candice comes out and watches Beth give Maria another suplex. Beth got a response for her actions, but IMO it wasn't a big enough response to put her over as a believable heel.

I didn't mean real as in a good match but more real as in the fact Maria could never under any circumstances ever put Beth down. When I saw that match lineup I just knew they were somehow going to have Maria throwing a girl that is bigger and stronger than her around and when I saw they sold as it should be I was very pleased. I agree though I'm sure we are about to see Candice beat Beth down. Candice doesn't look that great anymore and she really doesn't put on a good match.

I would LOVE to see Beth get the title and Mickie feud with her. It wouldn't be the end all be all of matches but at least it would keep the momentum going on RAW and we wouldn't treat the diva matches as commercial breaks.

 

[Bernkastel]

I didn't mean real as in a good match but more real as in the fact Maria could never under any circumstances ever put Beth down. When I saw that match lineup I just knew they were somehow going to have Maria throwing a girl that is bigger and stronger than her around and when I saw they sold as it should be I was very pleased. I agree though I'm sure we are about to see Candice beat Beth down. Candice doesn't look that great anymore and she really doesn't put on a good match.

I would LOVE to see Beth get the title and Mickie feud with her. It wouldn't be the end all be all of matches but at least it would keep the momentum going on RAW and we wouldn't treat the diva matches as commercial breaks.

Well how is Candice beating Beth down real? How is Candice beating Beth down any more real or fake than Maria doing it? Maria and Candice about the same size (there both within 5 pounds of each other) and either way Beth is bigger and stronger than both girls to the point that Candice would have to use an alternative means to strength if she wants to put Beth away, And since Beth is not only bigger and stronger than Candice but also a better mat wrestler, how is Candice going to accomplish this without WWE having Beth look weak, one way or the other in their match?

 

[.MCH]

Well how is Candice beating Beth down real? How is Candice beating Beth down any more real or fake than Maria doing it? Maria and Candice about the same size (there both within 5 pounds of each other) and either way Beth is bigger and stronger than both girls to the point that Candice would have to use an alternative means to strength if she wants to put Beth away, And since Beth is not only bigger and stronger than Candice but also a better mat wrestler, how is Candice going to accomplish this without WWE having Beth look weak, one way or the other in their match?

Trust me it's been done before. Look at Rey vs. Big Show or Khali or what not. Look at Jazz vs. Trish. I'm pretty sure WWE won't build her up as the Glamazon and then make her look weak this quickly!

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Well Candice beating Beth would be unreal, but that's the whole point of it. Her gimmick right now is all about "heart" and "hard work" and all that mushy stuff, so if she somehow beats Beth at Unforgiven, it'd just put that over even more. Like I said before, this feud could be to Candice what the Jazz vs Trish or Molly vs Trish feud was to... Trish (I said Trish too many times). This isn't the first time the WWE has built up the challenger to be dominating, look at Victoria vs Mickie James before NYR, but Mickie won that feud and it made her even a bigger face.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[psykohurricane]

Beth phoenix will do for Candice michelle what Jazz did for Trish Stratus way back in 2002. I agree Candice isn't a great wrestler right now but she is improving and having a feud with Beth Phoenix will just help her become a better wrestler. The first couple of match should be won by Candice just so that people that still see the 2005 version of Candice when they watch her in the ring see how good she's become since then. The same thing happen to Trish when she won the title for the first time, she wasn't near has good has the other divas the WWE had but she was learning and the feud she had with Jazz help her learn more and become the diva she is today. So i think this feud with Beth will be the feud that going take Candice from the upper mid card divas she is today to the main event level of the woman's division.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Well Candice beating Beth would be unreal, but that's the whole point of it. Her gimmick right now is all about "heart" and "hard work" and all that mushy stuff...

"Heart" and "hard work" are usually nothing more than wrestling euphamisms for people under 6'0 like Rey Mysterio.

I agree with the previous poster that Candice beating Beth is like Rey Mysterio beating the Great Khali. It doesn't doesn't look real at all. We all love giant killer stories, and the little guy coming up on top over odds, but sometimes its just ridiculous. It reminds me of when Zach Gowen got a win over the Big Show.

I honestly don't see how a Beth VS Candice match should take more than 5 minutes unless Beth is playing with her food.

Candice should be champion cause she is pretty? Isn't that right up there with thinking HHH should be champion cause he's married to the company? Well, I don't see Hunter with a title, so Candice should be out. The fact she's champion is just a reflection of how poorly that division has done in the last five years, and this is from someone that likes the female superstars in the ring. But I lost a lot of my faith in that when they buried Molly Holly over and over and over again, mocked her "fat ass" and shaved her head. That just seemed disrespectful to me.

The last truly awesome women's title match I saw was the Trish VS Lita match (correct me if I am wrong, I think it was a Royal Rumble) when Lita nearly killed herself beating Trish and took the title.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

"Heart" and "hard work" are usually nothing more than wrestling euphamisms for people under 6'0 like Rey Mysterio.

I agree with the previous poster that Candice beating Beth is like Rey Mysterio beating the Great Khali. It doesn't doesn't look real at all. We all love giant killer stories, and the little guy coming up on top over odds, but sometimes its just ridiculous. It reminds me of when Zach Gowen got a win over the Big Show.

I honestly don't see how a Beth VS Candice match should take more than 5 minutes unless Beth is playing with her food.

Candice should be champion cause she is pretty? Isn't that right up there with thinking HHH should be champion cause he's married to the company? Well, I don't see Hunter with a title, so Candice should be out. The fact she's champion is just a reflection of how poorly that division has done in the last five years, and this is from someone that likes the female superstars in the ring. But I lost a lot of my faith in that when they buried Molly Holly over and over and over again, mocked her "fat ass" and shaved her head. That just seemed disrespectful to me.

The last truly awesome women's title match I saw was the Trish VS Lita match (correct me if I am wrong, I think it was a Royal Rumble) when Lita nearly killed herself beating Trish and took the title.

I don't think it's that unrealistic for Candice to beat Beth Phoenix. I mean comparing it to Rey vs Kahli is a bit much... Kahli's almost 2 ft taller than him. Candice and Beth are about the same height, and Beth weighs 30 pounds more than Candice. I think that's the whole reason for this feud. It makes Candice look like a stronger champion, and I think the WWE did that without making Beth look really weak (i.e. the surprise pinfall at Unforgiven).

I do agree that Candice shouldn't be champion because she's pretty, but I'm betting there's more to why she became champion than just that. I think the only year the Women's Division really bad is 2005, and besides that even the "Molly Fat Ass" storyline (which I hated) was all part of a pretty good Women's Divison. 2000-2004 were very good years for the division.

And I think the match you're talking about is the Trish vs Lita title match from the December 6, 2004 main event from Raw. That was an amazing match.

Flames Out
Dragon