WWE RAW LD 7/11/2011 - This Fire Burns

[JGlass]

Fuck that. There's nothing ugly about someone standing up to Vince McMahon's disgusting corporation and his polarizing vision of professional wrestling or the manner in which he's set things up so people don't even have a legitimate choice about who to like and not like. Corporatism is ugly. The WWE Thought Police are ugly. Vince McMahon owning professional wrestling is ugly. What CM Punk stands for his anything but.

I wasn't talking about CM Punk so much as cheering heels in general, though I'd argue that when CM Punk broke the rules he was supposed to break he was a deplorable character, while this CM Punk is a much more sympathetic character.

I'll compare him to Wolverine, Marvel's superstar anti-hero. Wolverine is mean, he's brash, he kills when it's not totally necessary, and at many times he's more animal than human, but in the end all of that is okay, because his heart is in the right place and he's fighting for a greater good. For the past month CM Punk has really fit that mold as well, fighting for the truth, fighting for fairness, fighting against the power. Since having this conversation I've really come around on what Punk and the WWE are doing here (I have a history of this), and I think it's working to perfection.

So, back the original point, this current incarnation of CM Punk doesn't really fit the description of a deplorable heel that people cheer. Edge from 2006-2009 would fit that description much better.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I'm not saying that your feelings were wrong, just that they were misleading.

I've been watching wrestling for over 20 years. I think I know how I feel while watching a particular kind of segment.

Yes, it was CM Punk breaking McMahon down... by making the negotiation into a farce. It wasn't like McMahon was doing his part to make the negotiation seem like serious business either, how many times did he re-do his entrance?

Vince is losing his mind. This isn't new....

As for Punk, it was working. The dynamic between Punk and McMahon is off the charts. It wasn't a farse.

It was not John Cena's best comedic work, not even close, on that we can agree. I would have liked to see Cena stick to the serious side of things for the entire promo, but what are you going to do? This was one of those rare cases where the segment wasn't about Cena, it was about CM Punk.

Exactly. It wasn't about Cena, or at least it didn't seem to be. This entire thing is about Punk, and his possible departure. However, the segment was doing well, and to be honest, Cena didn't need to talk half as much as he did. Less is more from Cena, in this particular angle.

 

[shattered dreams]

There are many things inherently unrealistic about hero characters. The appeal of an anti-hero isn't "ugly." It is for those that want to see believable actions. Why is Wolverine so much more popular than Cyclops? Because people can relate to imperfection easier. There is nothing ugly about admitting that in reality people are far from perfect.

edit: you beat me to the wolverine reference you bastard!

 

[Smartie]

The thing that makes me sorry is that it seems Punk's best line of the night " What a maneuver! " got overlooked.

 

[Coco]

I wasn't talking about CM Punk so much as cheering heels in general, though I'd argue that when CM Punk broke the rules he was supposed to break he was a deplorable character, while this CM Punk is a much more sympathetic character.

Punk got booed for not doing drugs and seeking revenge on a guy who cost him the world title. Hardly deplorable. He's sometimes like a defiant babyface who happens to get booed.

So, back the original point, this current incarnation of CM Punk doesn't really fit the description of a deplorable heel that people cheer. Edge from 2006-2009 would fit that description much better.

Yeah. Fuck Edge.

 

[Daniel]

You're really bad at that, you know. Poor man's Slyfox. Next time, wait until you have something you're actually right about before trying to copy me.

So your the only person to ever do the arrogantly right routine? I'm not trying to copy you. There is a difference between you and I - I'm only arrogant when I'm correct.

I still can't believe you haven't conceded this yet. You're becoming a parody of yourself in not admitting that you're wrong. I said it. Everyone else in this thread said it. JGlass was at the event and said it. Punk got a great reaction tonight. There's no two ways around it.

Argument over.

How is the argument over? Do wrestlers not move up and down the card?

You realize you're wrong, though, right?

You haven't proven me otherwise. And there's a reason for that - it's because you can't.

No, I just don't acknowledge things which are wrong.

I'm getting the feeling that this debate is becoming meaningless. If you're wrong, just don't reply. But I'd prefer if you actually admitted it. That way I could put it in my signature.

And yet, you still manage to get it so wrong, so often.

Prove. It.

 

[JGlass]

I've been watching wrestling for over 20 years. I think I know how I feel while watching a particular kind of segment.

Once again, it's not what you feel that I'm after, it's what you think. You really need to watch more Star Wars, dude.

Vince is losing his mind. This isn't new....

Senile Vince is not for everybody. Hell, it's not for most people.

As for Punk, it was working. The dynamic between Punk and McMahon is off the charts. It wasn't a farse.

Yes, yes it was a farce, and I fail to see how you don't realize it. They were supposed to have a sit down contract negotiation to get Punk resigned to the WWE, and Punk starts making ludicrous demands that he knew McMahon wouldn't give into/demands that were totally out of place, like bringing back WWE Ice Cream.

Exactly. It wasn't about Cena, or at least it didn't seem to be. This entire thing is about Punk, and his possible departure. However, the segment was doing well, and to be honest, Cena didn't need to talk half as much as he did. Less is more from Cena, in this particular angle.

I wouldn't say less is more as I would say that he needs to stick to the more serious stuff. I mean, he still is the champion, and he still is the face of the company, so he needs to play a major role in this feud, he just needs to play the yin to CM Punk's yang.

There are many things inherently unrealistic about hero characters. The appeal of an anti-hero isn't "ugly." It is for those that want to see believable actions. Why is Wolverine so much more popular than Cyclops? Because people can relate to imperfection easier. There is nothing ugly about admitting that in reality people are far from perfect.

Read my last post please.

 

[JJYanks121]

There are many things inherently unrealistic about hero characters. The appeal of an anti-hero isn't "ugly." It is for those that want to see believable actions. Why is Wolverine so much more popular than Cyclops? Because people can relate to imperfection easier. There is nothing ugly about admitting that in reality people are far from perfect.

Which is why Superman, the man from the planet Krypton who can fly at the speed of light, leap tall buildings in a single bound (and then lift him with super strength), can see through buildings, and is generally invincible except for the whole kryptonite thing, is the most popular "hero" of all time right?

Listen, I understand the appeal of both. I personally prefer Batman because he's real in some sense, but let's not get out of hand. There's a market for both, but ultimately, people want to have heroes. Whether it's the anti-hero variety or the more traditional one, your choice.

 

[JJYanks121]

The thing that makes me sorry is that it seems Punk's best line of the night " What a maneuver! " got overlooked.

Colt Cabana called, he wants his line back.

 

[JGlass]

Punk got booed for not doing drugs and seeking revenge on a guy who cost him the world title. Hardly deplorable. He's sometimes like a defiant babyface who happens to get booed.

You're really watering down both characters. CM Punk wasn't booed for not doing drugs, he was booed for trying to imply that his lifestyle was superior to that of others and by trying to force it upon the WWE Universe. He also wasn't booed for trying to seek revenge, he was booed for trying to seek revenge through cowardly means by outnumbering and assaulting his enemy.

Yeah. Fuck Edge.

Lying cheating bastard. God I love him. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe a little, but I know it's wrong for me to love him.

 

[Hawkeye]

There are many things inherently unrealistic about hero characters. The appeal of an anti-hero isn't "ugly." It is for those that want to see believable actions. Why is Wolverine so much more popular than Cyclops? Because people can relate to imperfection easier. There is nothing ugly about admitting that in reality people are far from perfect.

edit: you beat me to the wolverine reference you bastard!

Wolverine is popular because common folk find it hard to tow the line without pissing and moaning about the people in charge. Wolverine serves as an avatar of anti-authority;he's who people wish they could be.

I have no bearing in this argument other than the fact that I hate Wolverine. I just had to jump on that.

 

[Coco]

Batman is more real only when you compare him to supernatural, unearthly beings. You have nothing in common with him.

 

[Coco]

You're really watering down both characters. CM Punk wasn't booed for not doing drugs, he was booed for trying to imply that his lifestyle was superior to that of others and by trying to force it upon the WWE Universe.

"Hey, kids: Stay clean. It's objectively better than having to go to a methadone clinic later in life." Wow, what a bastard.

He also wasn't booed for trying to seek revenge, he was booed for trying to seek revenge through cowardly means by outnumbering and assaulting his enemy.

Which is... exactly what Orton did to him. Almost like the Viper got what he had coming.

 

[shattered dreams]

Which is why Superman, the man from the planet Krypton who can fly at the speed of light, leap tall buildings in a single bound (and then lift him with super strength), can see through buildings, and is generally invincible except for the whole kryptonite thing, is the most popular "hero" of all time right?

Listen, I understand the appeal of both. I personally prefer Batman because he's real in some sense, but let's not get out of hand. There's a market for both, but ultimately, people want to have heroes. Whether it's the anti-hero variety or the more traditional one, your choice.

I feel confident saying that superman is not presently the most popular "hero." The times have changed. Superman movies do not do that well while something so much more human like batman is flourishing. There certainly is a place for both but prowrestling has been focusing on realism for whatever reason. In such an environment superman doesn't quite work as well. It still works for kids but there is nothing wrong with adults cheering for the other option.

 

[JJYanks121]

Batman is more real only when you compare him to supernatural, unearthly beings. You have nothing in common with him.

Was that directed at me? Because if it was.......you're right. I prefer Batman to Superman in the sense that he doesn't have super powers, but who would try and compare themselves to Batman? Dude has all the money in the world, can do what the fuck he wants, is jacked as shit, and is full of awesome. I am a 26 year old entrepreneur nowhere near Batman's wealth or musculature at that. I admit that. Doesn't mean I can't find Batman movies cool as fuck.

 

[JGlass]

Batman is more real only when you compare him to supernatural, unearthly beings. You have nothing in common with him.

This. The only thing you have in common with Batman is that you have no superpowers. Unless your parents were murdered in front of you and/or you are stinking filthy rich and/or you fight crime and/or you are faster, stronger, smarter, quicker, and more talented in every way than everyone you know and/or you're really into bats, like creepily so, you have nothing in common with Bruce Wayne.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Once again, it's not what you feel that I'm after, it's what you think. You really need to watch more Star Wars, dude.

I have. I love them. I'm telling you it's about how you feel as a fan. The segment was kicking all sorts of ass. I felt like I was watching something for grown people. Then, down the ramp, comes the big child and his poop jokes. It nearly ruined it, for me.

Senile Vince is not for everybody. Hell, it's not for most people.

I blame most of the insane things that happen on Vince getting old. However, thinking about it, I see the point of Vince acting like a cocky prick on his way to the ring. He was full of confidence, to begin the segment. After Punk was finished dismantling Vince, like a grown man would do, Vince had nothing left. I dig it.

Yes, yes it was a farce, and I fail to see how you don't realize it. They were supposed to have a sit down contract negotiation to get Punk resigned to the WWE, and Punk starts making ludicrous demands that he knew McMahon wouldn't give into/demands that were totally out of place, like bringing back WWE Ice Cream.

There's a difference between a WWE PG-style farce (Horny and Big Show), and Punk acting like an arrogant, sadistic asshole. It wasn't a farce, because it wasn't a comical scene. Prior to Cena hitting the ring, it had funny moments, but was serious in tone. That's the difference.

I wouldn't say less is more as I would say that he needs to stick to the more serious stuff. I mean, he still is the champion, and he still is the face of the company, so he needs to play a major role in this feud, he just needs to play the yin to CM Punk's yang.

Less is more, definitely. Punk is absolutely on fire right now, and I don't really want to see him share the spotlight with Cena. Why? I'm being a selfish fanboy. However, a lot of people feel the same way.

 

[Coco]

Was that directed at me? Because if it was.......you're right. I prefer Batman to Superman in the sense that he doesn't have super powers, but who would try and compare themselves to Batman? Dude has all the money in the world, can do what the fuck he wants, is jacked as shit, and is full of awesome. I am a 26 year old entrepreneur nowhere near Batman's wealth or musculature at that. I admit that. Doesn't mean I can't find Batman movies cool as fuck.

You can find him cool as fuck all you want. But to find him preferable because he's "more real" must imply you've managed to find some part of your human experience mirrored in him. Which is... bizarre.

 

[JGlass]

"Hey, kids: Stay clean. It's objectively better than having to go to a methadone clinic later in life." Wow, what a bastard.

Yeah, because that totally happened. It was more like, "If you don't be exactly like me your life will end in certain misery and failure. The only way you can ever achieve happiness is through a straight edge lifestyle."

Which is... exactly what Orton did to him. Almost like the Viper got what he had coming.

Come now Coco, I thought Canadians originated the term "two wrongs don't make a right."

 

[Mac Attack]

I personally think Hornsowggle is best on Mic. He really gets into his promos.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Dickbutt.

 

[Coco]

Yeah, because that totally happened. It was more like, "If you don't be exactly like me your life will end in certain misery and failure. The only way you can ever achieve happiness is through a straight edge lifestyle."

I in no way see that as unreasonable.

Come now Coco, I thought Canadians originated the term "two wrongs don't make a right."

Yes, but Tim Horton never met Randy Orton.

 

[shattered dreams]

Looks like sly successfully semi-trolled this to 1000 posts.

 

[JJYanks121]

I feel confident saying that superman is not presently the most popular "hero." The times have changed. Superman movies do not do that well while something so much more human like batman is flourishing. There certainly is a place for both but prowrestling has been focusing on realism for whatever reason. In such an environment superman doesn't quite work as well. It still works for kids but there is nothing wrong with adults cheering for the other option.

Why is it always kids vs. adults? Actually, I think that view is completely misguided. I'm an adult, 26 years old. In no way do I think the same way as 18 year old wrestling fans looking to be "outside the box" and "cool". Those people are the ones that boo Cena right? Because only kids can like Cena, yea? Well, I have no hatred for the guy at all. Hell, I respect the man for dealing with the bullshit he deals with and still busting his ass at his job more than I ever could dream of doing. I'm an adult and I don't see how other adults can't see that. I can't really understand that hate.

I mean, I can understand the appeal of the anti-hero. As previously stated, I'm a big Batman fan, especially the newest incarnation. In those movies, Batman is an anti-hero, total mixed reaction from his public. Actually, that sounds like Cena's reaction..........anywhooser, there will always be a market for both.

I'll even give you one more example, Derek Jeter. Yes, bring on the red rep from X and other Bostonians HA! But seriously, a lot of Bostonians actually respect Jeter because he has literally done nothing wrong over the course of his career. His life is that of the white meat babyface. Tino Martinez said that Jeter's "big secret reveal" is that if he ever has a sip of alcohol, he won't drive a car. Quite different than all the DUI-laden athletes out there. He's a hero to many, from kids to adults, and he is so because he does things the right way. I do think there's a place in this world for a true hero, a guy who does things the right way whether it's "cool" or not. Jeter is that guy in life, Cena is that guy in wrestling. Both many a shit ton of money. Pretty sure there's a place for those guys.

 

[Mac Attack]

1000