WWE RAW LD 7/11/2011 - This Fire Burns

[mareek]

I was hoping punk was gonna hint at at punk vs austin match at wm 28.

 

[Via Armbar]

Why would they have Punk cheered despite him being a heel? Uhhhh.....money? Pay per view buys? Media coverage? All of the above? It worked. This isn't the 80's and shit isn't as clear cut as it used to be. People don't want to be force fed shit (or at least they want to think they aren't being fed shit, the WWE knows exactly what they're doing with Punk and his character).

 

[JGlass]

The most interesting thing about Cena are his epic main events that involve mixed reactions. That's what turned me onto the guy in the first place. Why fight what's coming in Chicago? Why not let Punk throw everything at the wall and see what sticks? Is there anything to lose here?

Very good point. There's no doubt that this CM Punk is more entertaining than heel CM Punk, because while heel CM Punk broke all the rules he was meant to break, this CM Punk breaks all the rules he isn't meant to break, and the fans, seemingly regardless of taste, love it.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I was hoping punk was gonna hint at at punk vs austin match at wm 28.

And I'm hoping the Gobbellygooker comes out to the ring at Money in The Bank and plants Punk with the GTS.

We all can't get what we hope for, but remember what a great man once said...

Faith.

 

[JGlass]

I seriously had goosebumps during that closing segment man, I think I need to watch it again. I can't wait for the PPV now.

Oh, absolutely. I turned to Charlie and said to him, "Dude, this is a great promo." When you can the roof blown off of a building by talking about ICE CREAM, you know you're good.

 

[Via Armbar]

And I'm not anti-Cena in any way for the record. I think he gets a lot of unecessary hate and even out did The Rock during much of their back and forth. I'm saying he got out done tonight.

 

[JGlass]

How is this a sad day? it shows the evolution in wrestling when people finally stop accepting whats handed to them but instead accept what they like

Because it shows the ugliness of what people like. Wholesome values are gone, it's all about being a selfish, mean, and disrespectful. I once again point to Bret Hart who started to lose popularity to Steve Austin because he didn't stoop to levels Stone Cold did. I mean, thank goodness Steve Austin DID do that, because it made wrestling a lot more interesting, but I understand Bret Hart's point of view as well.

 

[Via Armbar]

Because it shows the ugliness of what people like. Wholesome values are gone, it's all about being a selfish, mean, and disrespectful. I once again point to Bret Hart who started to lose popularity to Steve Austin because he didn't stoop to levels Stone Cold did. I mean, thank goodness Steve Austin DID do that, because it made wrestling a lot more interesting, but I understand Bret Hart's point of view as well.

Wholesome values like in the 80s when guys like Hulk Hogan where cheered? Remember, cocaine was also very very popular in the 80s

 

[JGlass]

Wholesome values like in the 80s when guys like Hulk Hogan where cheered? Remember, cocaine was also very very popular in the 80s

Yeah, especially with the kids that made up most of the WWF's fan base.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Because it shows the ugliness of what people like. Wholesome values are gone, it's all about being a selfish, mean, and disrespectful. I once again point to Bret Hart who started to lose popularity to Steve Austin because he didn't stoop to levels Stone Cold did. I mean, thank goodness Steve Austin DID do that, because it made wrestling a lot more interesting, but I understand Bret Hart's point of view as well.

I was always on Hart's side as a kid. I even remember thinking Canada was cool at one point. Lulz.

 

[Via Armbar]

Yeah, especially with the kids that made up most of the WWF's fan base.

It was either the prayers or the vitamins, not sure which but one was definitely coke.

 

[shattered dreams]

It always amuses me when people talk about Bret Hart like he was a saint.

 

[JJYanks121]

Wholesome values like in the 80s when guys like Hulk Hogan where cheered? Remember, cocaine was also very very popular in the 80s

Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but I doubt Hogan's 8 year old fans had any freakin clue that Hogan's "vitamins" were mostly of the illegal variety. Bottom line is that Hogan did his thing and was a Christian hero (he wore the cross). Then it was Bret, then they even tried to make HBK into "the boyhood dream" guy to be the white meat babyface. Business started to change around then, but up to HBK's reign, the top face was all about defending what was right and all that. Stone Cold was the first anti-hero and I get where JGlass is coming from in understanding Bret Hart's position. Wrestling fans have pretty bad moral values and have for a long time. It's a weird world.

 

[Nate DaMac]

It always amuses me when people talk about Bret Hart like he was a saint.

We're talking kayfabe, dude.

 

[Slyfox696]

You say that, but all evidence points to the fact that you are. Now we can do this for the whole of this debate, or you can concede that you were wrong. Your pick.

You're really bad at that, you know. Poor man's Slyfox. Next time, wait until you have something you're actually right about before trying to copy me.

My point is that upper-midcarders don't normally win three world titles. That shows that WWE possibly sees both Punk and Sheamus as more than upper-midcarders. They may not have shown it recently, but it doesn't mean they don't see it that way.

Argument over.

I'm guessing you missed the bit were I said "not just from the IWC" in regards to the great reactions he's getting.

You realize you're wrong, though, right?

Do you have a problem with selective reading as well as selective hearing?

No, I just don't acknowledge things which are wrong.

So what you've done here is take a section of wrestling fans, labelled them "people" and implied that that they find simple concepts difficult to understand. You have then wrongly put me in that group.

Clever. I'm still not buying it.

And yet, you still manage to get it so wrong, so often.

It's annoying how you seem to think people who aren't huge Cena fans are smarky.

It's usually true.

It's either smarky fans or teenage males who forget they were children a mere 5-7 years earlier.

I recall Edge out popping Cena during that feud elsewhere as well.

First of all, let's set something straight.

A "pop" has nothing to do with cheers or boos. In that, almost no one outpops Cena, whether fans like him or not. What you're referring to, mostly, is cheers/boos.

Well then what the fuck is the circumstance for other shows in cities that aren't in smarky territory and Cena gets booed or a heel gets cheered?

Which has nothing to do with pops.

But most of the time, if Cena is wrestling someone who is not a smark favorite, he gets overwhelming cheers. His feuds over the last year and a half pretty much prove that. When he wrestles smark favorites, you usually have a teenage/young adult male audience who dislikes Cena, and everyone else who likes him. Obviously, those are not absolutes, but they are "more often than nots".

Cena went up against a smark favorite in a traditionally smark heavy city. I could have told you before the match Punk would have gotten more cheers from the males close to the ring than Cena would. It'll be the same way on Sunday in Chicago. And if they went to Madison Square Garden, it'd be the same way.

This isn't rocket science, it's just historical analysis. Like I said, your "proof" that Punk was better than Cena is silly, because I could have told you before the show that would happen. It didn't matter what was said or how it was said, that was going to be the reaction. Then when Punk drops some "real" things like Colt Cabana and what all, it basically seals it.

I don't see how you can argue it at this point.

Let's put it this way, and you'll know I'm right. On Sunday, who do you expect to be cheered more, Punk or Cena? Punk, right? Does that mean that you can see in the future and see that Punk is going to be the better performer? Or is it just because you know Chicago is a fairly smarky city, and they're going to choose Punk over Cena, even if it wasn't Punk's hometown?


You know I'm right. And your argument that Punk was better than Cena, because a smarky crowd (regardless of how many there were) cheered Punk over Cena is nothing but completely faulty logic.

 

[shattered dreams]

I was always on Hart's side as a kid. I even remember thinking Canada was cool at one point. Lulz.

Vince really can get anything over.

 

[JJYanks121]

It always amuses me when people talk about Bret Hart like he was a saint.

He wasn't, his character was. The same could be said about most babyfaces. Hogan's no saint, HBK sure as shit wasn't a saint, Warrior certainly wasn't a saint, but all of those men were loved. Their characters on the other hand, were saints and fought for what is right.

 

[Via Armbar]

THE COCAINE/HOGAN/80s THING WAS A JOKE. Haha I know that the WWE's audience and Hogans fans were mostly kids. Plus, the youngins back then were more of an acid crowd.

 

[Coco]

Because it shows the ugliness of what people like.

Fuck that. There's nothing ugly about someone standing up to Vince McMahon's disgusting corporation and his polarizing vision of professional wrestling or the manner in which he's set things up so people don't even have a legitimate choice about who to like and not like. Corporatism is ugly. The WWE Thought Police are ugly. Vince McMahon owning professional wrestling is ugly. What CM Punk stands for his anything but.

 

[Slyfox696]

He wasn't, his character was. The same could be said about most babyfaces. Hogan's no saint, HBK sure as shit wasn't a saint, Warrior certainly wasn't a saint, but all of those men were loved. Their characters on the other hand, were saints and fought for what is right.

I just want to go on record and say that I ALWAYS supported Bret Hart against Steve Austin. I remember watching his promos and thinking everything he said was completely accurate.

 

[shattered dreams]

There are plenty of people that conveniently ignore many of Bret's issues when discussing non-kayfabe matters.

 

[JGlass]

Oh, so I don't know how I was feeling prior to Cena's arrival? I think I do, actually.

I'm not saying that your feelings were wrong, just that they were misleading.

It wasn't a farce. It was Punk breaking McMahon down. Punk was taking Vince apart, piece by piece, making him do whatever Punk demanded. That's what was happening. I know it's hard to identify an adult-oriented storyline in wrestling today, but that's what we were seeing. And, for me, that was ruined, and brought back down to Disneyland, by involving Cena, and his 5th grade sense of humor.

Yes, it was CM Punk breaking McMahon down... by making the negotiation into a farce. It wasn't like McMahon was doing his part to make the negotiation seem like serious business either, how many times did he re-do his entrance?

Whatever. His jokes stunk, had no place out there, and it hurt the segment (for me). I don't blame Cena, I blame those who are seemingly terrified of letting Cena behave like an adult for more than 40 seconds.

It was not John Cena's best comedic work, not even close, on that we can agree. I would have liked to see Cena stick to the serious side of things for the entire promo, but what are you going to do? This was one of those rare cases where the segment wasn't about Cena, it was about CM Punk.

I was always on Hart's side as a kid. I even remember thinking Canada was cool at one point. Lulz.

I would make a joke at the expense of Canada here, but I like that Coco guy too much.

It was either the prayers or the vitamins, not sure which but one was definitely coke.

The kids weren't cheering Terry Bollea, though, they were cheering Hulk Hogan. Bollea was the one that was addicted to drugs, the only thing Hulk Hogan was addicted to was kicking ass.

It always amuses me when people talk about Bret Hart like he was a saint.

Once again, it's not the person we're talking about, it's the character. Bret Hart portrayed a straight laced character when Steve Austin started getting Stone Cold, and it wound up costing him fan support.

 

[Nate DaMac]

There are plenty of people that conveniently ignore many of Bret's issues when discussing non-kayfabe matters.

Where are those people in this thread?

 

[JJYanks121]

THE COCAINE/HOGAN/80s THING WAS A JOKE. Haha I know that the WWE's audience and Hogans fans were mostly kids. Plus, the youngins back then were more of an acid crowd.

Speak for yourself. I turned 6 in 1990 and was a huge Warrior fan. I was taking speed before it was renamed Ritalin and became cool.

 

[JJYanks121]

I just want to go on record and say that I ALWAYS supported Bret Hart against Steve Austin. I remember watching his promos and thinking everything he said was completely accurate.

I did too. To be honest, and this sounds nuts, but I was never that into Steve Austin. I get the appeal, but he was never my favorite. Bret I grew up with though and I certainly liked, and I definitely was on his side with that feud. Then again, good heels often tell the truth so that you question what is actually right.....