The 2011 Wrestlezone Tournament Live Draw: February 15

[Vega]

Are people like Harley Race, Dory Funk or Verne Gagne in because people on here are so much more familiar with them than with Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi or Jushin Liger?

 

[Slyfox696]

Are people like Harley Race, Dory Funk or Verne Gagne in because people on here are so much more familiar with them than with Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi or Jushin Liger?

They are in because they don't have Japanese last names, which is the basis for too many people's vote. Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

I would have no problem if there was any chance of objectivity, but there's not. Combine that with the ignorance of the men's careers and work, and that's why I don't think they should be in to ruin the tournament.

 

[The Crock]

They are in because they don't have Japanese last names, which is the basis for too many people's vote. Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

I would have no problem if there was any chance of objectivity, but there's not. Combine that with the ignorance of the men's careers and work, and that's why I don't think they should be in to ruin the tournament.

While I like Japanese wrestling and I'm a fan of all those guys, I can see what you guys are saying. A lot of people think "Oh if I vote for the Japanese guy, people will think I know what I'm talking about." At the same time some people, like X, really know their Japanese wrestling. No point in arguing though, I just want to get this thing going.

 

[X]

A lot of funny comments in this thread.

Oh, and just so everyone is clear, I'm totally against ANY Japanese influence in this tournament, including Liger and Muta. So feel free to get pissed at me. KB was the one who fought to get those two in.

What a shocker, the guy who hates all indy and Japanese wrestling doesn't want anyone Japanese in the tournament.

They are in because they don't have Japanese last names

Seriously, this is your reasoning? This is your valid reasoning? I'm almost tempted to pull the racism card here with such a blatantly prejudicial statement.

, which is the basis for too many people's vote. Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

So in other words, like KB, you too don't want them in because you dislike Japanese wrestling, don't want to see something you don't like succeed, and want only your personal favorites to be involved. All because you THINK people are voting for Japanese wrestlers just because of their names. Which, again, you have absolutely zero proof of in any shape, way, or form.


Seriously, the more you try to explain your reasoning the more you make it obvious that there isn't a single good reason for guys like Kobashi and Misawa not to be involved.


People are allowed their own opinions, and their allowed to vote however they want in this tournament, I thought that was established years ago, if you want to vote for someone because they have a nice haircut, because their last name ends in "-awa", or because they flipped a coin it doesn't matter, they're allowed to vote for whatever reasoning they want. Seems to me you just don't want to see guys like Kobashi or Misawa succeed, and that's your only real reason for excluding them.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I understand Sly & KB's position here as I last year thought I'd look good by pretending I knew who half the Japanese guys were in the tourney. I would suggest that letting a handful of stars that were big in Japan, and some in America too, would possibly satisfy both parties.

 

[jmt225]

Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

That logic goes for a lot of wrestlers in the tournament, man.

Just look at Vader... if he does well, people will say it will only be because of IC pushing him. Same goes for plenty of other non-Superstar level talent in the tournament.

The fun of the tournament is getting behind a person and educating people about his ability and accomplishments. Like I mentioned earlier, the biggest appeal of the tourney, in my eyes, is that it's the one time during the year where people will actually listen to what you have to say when it comes to a wrestler's talent. Even if their votes don't get persuaded to what you wanted... they will still read your posts and watch your videos and come to some sort of understanding why I or someone else thinks so highly of whatever wrestler I'm pushing.

Oh, and I'm backing Sting, all the way. It's about time he wins one of these. For two years straight I haven't been able to get him past 'Taker's overrated ass, but with Sting actually having some momentum because of the WWE rumors this year, there just might be a chance to get him over that fucking 'Taker hump.

 

[Daniel]

Surely the reasoning that people may vote for/against a Japanese wrestler because they know/don't know them also works for old school wrestlers. Or people may vote for old school wrestlers because that's the 'cool' thing to do. To put it simply, I will slightly change a quote from Slyfox.

Either people vote for them because they think old school wrestling is the God of wrestling (like *insert poster who is an old school wrestling fan here*), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great old school wrestling supposedly is (like *insert poster who is not a fan of old school wrestling here*).

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

They are in because they don't have Japanese last names, which is the basis for too many people's vote. Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

Don't forget Group C; those who haven't the slightest idea who they're actually voting for, but want to look really smart.

 

[Shocky]

I'm just glad to see there is already drama starting before the field is announced.

 

[X]

Don't forget Group C; those who haven't the slightest idea who they're actually voting for, but want to look really smart.

Newsflash: these people will still be doing this no matter what you do and who you include or exclude. I push Terry Funk almost every year and I always encounter tons of people who haven't the faintest idea that he's a former NWA World champion (when it REALLY meant something) and just think he was a garbage wrestler in ECW. People are going to vote and argue for wrestlers they may not be particularly educated about to appear smart no matter what you do. Happens every year with your Vaders, Dynamite Kids, and Harley Races. That's a terrible argument to exclude two guys who, again, outdrew the vast majority of the entrants by huge numbers (Kobashi/Misawa).

I don't get the whole accusation that I'm biased towards Japanese wrestling or something either, when anyone who pays attentions to my ratings and reviews sees I watch and give higher ratings to American wrestling far, FAR more often than I do Japanese wrestling. I'm so much more critical and hard-to-please when it comes to strong style matches than I am of the traditional North American style.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Newsflash: these people will still be doing this no matter what you do and who you include or exclude. I push Terry Funk almost every year and I always encounter tons of people who haven't the faintest idea that he's a former NWA World champion (when it REALLY meant something) and just think he was a garbage wrestler in ECW. People are going to vote and argue for wrestlers they may not be particularly educated about to appear smart no matter what you do. Happens every year with your Vaders, Dynamite Kids, and Harley Races. That's a terrible argument to exclude two guys who, again, outdrew the vast majority of the entrants by huge numbers (Kobashi/Misawa).

I don't get the whole accusation that I'm biased towards Japanese wrestling or something either, when anyone who pays attentions to my ratings and reviews sees I watch and give higher ratings to American wrestling far, FAR more often than I do Japanese wrestling. I'm so much more critical and hard-to-please when it comes to strong style matches than I am of the traditional North American style.

Just for the record, I wasn't placing you in Group C.

 

[klunderbunker]

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=153183

Our selection process if you're interested.

 

[JGlass]

I have a dream where one day black people, white people, and even Japanese people can all wrestle in the same fictional online tournament and get the same consideration by all the voters.

Just kidding, I usually don't give a rat's ass about the Japanese guys, but I'll at least put in some effort to learn about their accomplishments before blindly voting for the other guy. If they go up against a Cena, Savage, Angle, or Triple H type of guy, then I'll pretty much always vote American, but if they're against an Orton or a Jericho or a Benoit, I'll give the Japanese guy a careful look before voting. However, in any case it's the burden of people like X and Liger, guys who know a thing or two about Japanese wrestling, to convince me, someone totally ignorant to Japanese wrestling, that these puro guys are worth my vote. There's only so much you'll learn from wikipedia.

 

[X]

Just for the record, I wasn't placing you in Group C.

Oh I know man, wasn't trying to attack you, just countering your point. You're a great poster.

I have a dream where one day black people, white people, and even Japanese people can all wrestle in the same fictional online tournament and get the same consideration by all the voters.

Might need to make some room in my sig for this.

Just kidding, I usually don't give a rat's ass about the Japanese guys, but I'll at least put in some effort to learn about their accomplishments before blindly voting for the other guy. If they go up against a Cena, Savage, Angle, or Triple H type of guy, then I'll pretty much always vote American, but if they're against an Orton or a Jericho or a Benoit, I'll give the Japanese guy a careful look before voting. However, in any case it's the burden of people like X and Liger, guys who know a thing or two about Japanese wrestling, to convince me, someone totally ignorant to Japanese wrestling, that these puro guys are worth my vote. There's only so much you'll learn from wikipedia.

I just want them in because it makes both the debate and possible fantasy match-ups more fun. I loved arguing about Kobashi vs. Shawn.

 

[Tastycles]

Misawa vs Rock drew more posts than any other third round match last year. And more than most of the matches towards the end of the tournament.

If Misawa is going to be ignored for people like R-Truth, then I understand it in terms of populism. However, if he, a man who was wrestling this century, is overlooked, while Lou Thesz is in the tournament then that argument falls on its arse. I'll reserve my judgement until I see the qualifiers, but if we aren't going to be crowning the best wrestler ever nor the most popular wrestler now, what's the fucking point?

 

[Slyfox696]

What a shocker, the guy who hates all indy and Japanese wrestling doesn't want anyone Japanese in the tournament.



Seriously, this is your reasoning? This is your valid reasoning? I'm almost tempted to pull the racism card here with such a blatantly prejudicial statement.



So in other words, like KB, you too don't want them in because you dislike Japanese wrestling, don't want to see something you don't like succeed, and want only your personal favorites to be involved. All because you THINK people are voting for Japanese wrestlers just because of their names. Which, again, you have absolutely zero proof of in any shape, way, or form.


Seriously, the more you try to explain your reasoning the more you make it obvious that there isn't a single good reason for guys like Kobashi and Misawa not to be involved.


People are allowed their own opinions, and their allowed to vote however they want in this tournament, I thought that was established years ago, if you want to vote for someone because they have a nice haircut, because their last name ends in "-awa", or because they flipped a coin it doesn't matter, they're allowed to vote for whatever reasoning they want. Seems to me you just don't want to see guys like Kobashi or Misawa succeed, and that's your only real reason for excluding them.

You're not stupid, so quit acting like it. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and quit acting like you don't. Just because you're not going to get to *********e to your Japanese wrestling fetish this year, doesn't mean you have to be stupid about it.

Ignorance is one thing, voting for people simply for their nationality is another, and far more racist than anything I'll ever say. That's the difference between Old School workers and Japanese workers. People don't vote old school because of the nationality of their last name.

So for you people interested in the difference between old school and Japanese, there you go.




God I hate typing forum posts on the iPhone.

 

[gd]

Dave Batista. Straight to the finish line.

 

[shattered dreams]

All Japanese wrestlers are voted for alike!

Nothing racist about that ...

Now patriotism or supporting a culture for its achievements. That is some racist shit right there.

 

[D-Man]

Why does this tournament always end up like...

Let's just have fun with the positives of the tourney instead of finding and arguing about all of the negatives.

 

[The_Misson]

You're not stupid, so quit acting like it. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and quit acting like you don't. Just because you're not going to get to *********e to your Japanese wrestling fetish this year, doesn't mean you have to be stupid about it.

Ignorance is one thing, voting for people simply for their nationality is another, and far more racist than anything I'll ever say. That's the difference between Old School workers and Japanese workers. People don't vote old school because of the nationality of their last name.

So for you people interested in the difference between old school and Japanese, there you go.




God I hate typing forum posts on the iPhone.

Thing is you could pretty much have people doing this for any single wrestler. You could have people saying "Hey I'm gonna vote for Rey Mysterio cause he's mexican." Also, you could have people voting for the likes of William Regal cause he's English or for Finlay just because he's from Ireland. Also, I'm pretty sure for every idiot who votes for a Japenese wrestler just because he's Japenese, you have two people voting against him because they don't have a single clue who he is. I know this because last year I voted against the foreigners pretty much based off of the fact that I had no idea who they were or cared to know who they were. But, now that I know who some of them are and have watched some of there matches I might vote for them, unless of course there facing off against someone I like more.

 

[Slyfox696]

Thing is you could pretty much have people doing this for any single wrestler. You could have people saying "Hey I'm gonna vote for Rey Mysterio cause he's mexican." Also, you could have people voting for the likes of William Regal cause he's English or for Finlay just because he's from Ireland.

The difference is those guys have worked in major US promotions, which is what the majority of the posters on here follow. Which means they are familiar with those wrestlers and their influence on the businesses they've followed.

Despite what a couple posters here may lead you to believe, the majority of the posters on WZ do not follow Japanese wrestling, and even fewer are informed on the history of it.

I'm not working to have them excluded because I don't like Japanese wrestling, as Xfear mistakenly accuses, I'm working to have them excluded because their inclusion in the tournament is just stupid whenever the majority of the people don't know anything about it.

Also, I'm pretty sure for every idiot who votes for a Japenese wrestler just because he's Japenese, you have two people voting against him because they don't have a single clue who he is.

I agree, and even said as much.

Either people vote for them because they think Japanese wrestling is the God of wrestling (like X), or they vote against them because they get sick about hearing how great Japanese wrestling supposedly is (like Norcal and myself).

See?

That doesn't mean that EITHER vote is right though.

 

[X]

But that's not against the rules of the tournament Sly. One of the most important things of the tournament rules is that you can't force one thought-process or reasoning on voting, you're allowed to vote by whatever criteria or reasoning you want. It doesn't matter if you want to vote for someone because of their work, background, name, nationality, haircut, ring attire, singing voice, or eye color, you're allowed to vote for whatever reasoning you want.

 

[Vega]

But the same applies for guys like Thesz, Sammartino or even Backlund (not even saying Graham, Blassie or Rogers).

 

[Slyfox696]

But that's not against the rules of the tournament Sly.

And neither is shaping the tournament so that ignorance cannot rear its ugly head. Why are you so intent are creating a tournament which will be flawed before it even begins?

But the same applies for guys like Thesz, Sammartino or even Backlund (not even saying Graham, Blassie or Rogers).

But those guys worked in US promotions, and their influence on US based wrestling can still be seen and felt today. And WZ's primary audience is posters who are familiar primarily (and many times solely) with US based promotions.

 

[shattered dreams]

I'm working to have them excluded because their inclusion in the tournament is just stupid whenever the majority of the people don't know anything about it.

But those guys worked in US promotions, and their influence on US based wrestling can still be seen and felt today.

While those things "can still be seen etc." they clearly are not known by the majority.