The 2011 Wrestlezone Tournament Live Draw: February 15

[X]

Also, and I'm going to get shot for this by various people, there will be far fewer international stars in this tournament. We only considered Japanese and Mexican stars with resumes in America. You can bitch and moan about this all you like, but that's the way it's going to be. I believe the Puro guys in this are Inoki, Liger and Muta. That's it.

WHAT? When was this decided? That's bullshit considering how far Kobashi made it in last year's tournament.

Kobashi/Misawa/Baba/Jumbo should all be involved. There is NO excuse for having some of the biggest stars in the history of pro wrestling left out while people like fucking Hardcore Holly make the cut.

 

[Phoenix]

Basically a random generator, which is called The Hat.

 

[Dave]

The draw is always the best part of the tournament.

 

[Lee]

The draw is always the best part of the tournament.

No it's trying to argue stevie is better than JBL or Verne Gagne

 

[klunderbunker]

WHAT? When was this decided? That's bullshit considering how far Kobashi made it in last year's tournament.

Kobashi/Misawa/Baba/Jumbo should all be involved. There is NO excuse for having some of the biggest stars in the history of pro wrestling left out while people like fucking Hardcore Holly make the cut.

No, they shouldn't be. Hardly anyone knows who they are but they want to look cool by saying they think Misawa is better than Shawn. If people want to debate that then cool, but I don't want this turning into a repeat of various years of people that have no freaking clue who Kobashi is saying that he should get to the final sixteen while having seen five minutes of him in action.

 

[klunderbunker]

Also Lee, Stevie isn't on either of our lists, but there's a part where he could get in which I'll explain in more detail later. It'll be by random chance though.

 

[Father Uncle Oscar]

So let me get this straight, since I wasn't here for the last one: Will there be a public poll/debate? Or is there a certain group of mods/posters that will be doing all the debating/voting?

 

[jmt225]

No, they shouldn't be. Hardly anyone knows who they are but they want to look cool by saying they think Misawa is better than Shawn. If people want to debate that then cool, but I don't want this turning into a repeat of various years of people that have no freaking clue who Kobashi is saying that he should get to the final sixteen while having seen five minutes of him in action.

I've always thought a big part of the appeal to the tourney was being able to inform posters of international talent like Kobashi and Misawa. Every wrestling fan on the 'net should at the very least know those names, and here at WZ the tourney has always been the best opportunity to educate people about these guys and maybe even convert a few fans to Puro or Lucha with videos and information about them, which they otherwise wouldn't have checked out in some random thread. In a tourney like this though, most people want to know who is who, and they will actually pay attention to what is being posted about most guys.

If the tourney was only something like 32 wrestlers, I would get this, but with 128? I mean, there should be more than enough room to include some international stars.

I know you and Sly's minds are made up about this, but that's just my two cents for what they're worth.

 

[klunderbunker]

So let me get this straight, since I wasn't here for the last one: Will there be a public poll/debate? Or is there a certain group of mods/posters that will be doing all the debating/voting?

Oh no it will be public and open to all. The selection/seeding was done by the select group.

 

[X]

No, they shouldn't be. Hardly anyone knows who they are but they want to look cool by saying they think Misawa is better than Shawn.

Hardly anyone knows who Misawa and Kobashi are? You shitting me? Just because you and people who only watch the WWE don't know who they are doesn't mean they're unknowns, not like they wrestled in front of 20 people in a bingo hall, no, they were the BIGGEST MONEY DRAWS of the 90s in professional wrestling KB, and that INCLUDES the United States.

If people want to debate that then cool, but I don't want this turning into a repeat of various years of people that have no freaking clue who Kobashi is saying that he should get to the final sixteen while having seen five minutes of him in action.

And how do you know that? You have any proof at all that people who voted for Kobashi last year didn't know who he was? Any proof? No. Just wild speculation and conjecture. You think most people here have seen many Dory Funk Jr matches? Fuck no, doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the tournament.

Look, I get not having as many puro guys as last year, but limiting this to JUST American wrestling is beyond stupid, it's actually damaging. It makes our entire forum look like uneducated marks no better than the WWE Universe forums. How many times do we need to see Shawn Michaels win this tournament? Limiting this to just entirely American wrestlers takes a whole lot of the fun out of this thing because it limits the fantasy aspect of the tournament (because we've actually seen many of the US wrestlers wrestle each other many times, and we'll get 10,000 arguments about how so-and-so should beat so-and-so because they pinned them in a match on Nitro 15 years ago). Without some of the major stars of Japan and Mexico involved, we're just going to see the same 3-5 guys win this thing year after year after year after year.

Guys like Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Jumbo Tsuruta, and Giant Baba 100% should be in this tournament. Furthermore I'd argue a few of the major current puro stars should be involved, like Hiroshi Tanahashi and Takashi Sugiura, but at the very least Kobashi/Misawa/Jumbo/Baba should be in this. Jumbo wrestled in the US many times as well and was involved in a few of the Crockett Cup tag tournaments in the mid-80s for Jim Crockett Promotions. Kobashi wrestled several times for ROH in BIG match-ups, one of which is considered one of the best matches to take place in the States in the last decade, against Joe. Baba wrestled in the WWWF and MSG a bunch of times, and Misawa wrestled inter-promotional shows with the WWF in the late 80s a few times.

Seriously, no reason for those four guys not to be in this. I get limiting it, but not including ANY puro guys is absurd.

 

[klunderbunker]

I've always thought a big part of the appeal to the tourney was being able to inform posters of international talent like Kobashi and Misawa. Every wrestling fan on the 'net should at the very least know those names, and here at WZ the tourney has always been the best opportunity to knowledge people up about these guys and maybe even convert a few fans to Puro or Lucha with videos and information about them, which they otherwise wouldn't have checked out in some random thread. In a tourney like this though, most people want to know who is who, and they will actually pay attention to what is being posted about most guys.

If the tourney was only something like 32 wrestlers, I would get this, but with 128? I mean, there should be more than enough room to include some international stars.

Totally agree with knowing their names. However, there's a difference between knowing their name and knowing anything about them or anything in their matches. We wanted this to be something that the masses would be the most familiar with, and quality and ability aside, John Cena is far better known than Misawa. You, myself and X have probably seen a good many Misawa matches, but how many other regulars here have seen more than say, one?

 

[klunderbunker]

Hardly anyone knows who Misawa and Kobashi are? You shitting me? Just because you and people who only watch the WWE don't know who they are doesn't mean they're unknowns, not like they wrestled in front of 20 people in a bingo hall, no, they were the BIGGEST MONEY DRAWS of the 90s in professional wrestling KB, and that INCLUDES the United States.



And how do you know that? You have any proof at all that people who voted for Kobashi last year didn't know who he was? Any proof? No. Just wild speculation and conjecture. You think most people here have seen many Dory Funk Jr matches? Fuck no, doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the tournament.

Look, I get not having as many puro guys as last year, but limiting this to JUST American wrestling is beyond stupid, it's actually damaging. It makes our entire forum look like uneducated marks no better than the WWE Universe forums. How many times do we need to see Shawn Michaels win this tournament? Limiting this to just entirely American wrestlers takes a whole lot of the fun out of this thing because it limits the fantasy aspect of the tournament (because we've actually seen many of the US wrestlers wrestle each other many times, and we'll get 10,000 arguments about how so-and-so should beat so-and-so because they pinned them in a match on Nitro 15 years ago). Without some of the major stars of Japan and Mexico involved, we're just going to see the same 3-5 guys win this thing year after year after year after year.

Guys like Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Jumbo Tsuruta, and Giant Baba 100% should be in this tournament. Furthermore I'd argue a few of the major current puro stars should be involved, like Hiroshi Tanahashi and Takashi Sugiura, but at the very least Kobashi/Misawa/Jumbo/Baba should be in this. Jumbo wrestled in the US many times as well and was involved in a few of the Crockett Cup tag tournaments in the mid-80s for Jim Crockett Promotions. Kobashi wrestled several times for ROH in BIG match-ups, one of which is considered one of the best matches to take place in the States in the last decade, against Joe. Baba wrestled in the WWWF and MSG a bunch of times, and Misawa wrestled inter-promotional shows with the WWF in the late 80s a few times.

Seriously, no reason for those four guys not to be in this. I get limiting it, but not including ANY puro guys is absurd.

Dude, do you even read what I say? We're not putting just Americans in this and we're not leaving out all puro guys.

 

[X]

Dude, do you even read what I say? We're not putting just Americans in this and we're not leaving out all puro guys.

I did read what you said. You said Inoki, Muta, and Liger are the only puro guys in this. Which is a travesty.

 

[klunderbunker]

I did read what you said. You said Inoki, Muta, and Liger are the only puro guys in this. Which is a travesty.

Inoki was me more or less throwing the puro guys a bone. Liger and Muta are the only ones that the masses know of in any kind of detail which is why they're in here.

 

[The Doctor]

Will La Parka be in this year?

 

[X]

Inoki was me more or less throwing the puro guys a bone. Liger and Muta are the only ones that the masses know of in any kind of detail which is why they're in here.

So ROH doesn't count as an American promotion anymore? 'Cause Kobashi headlined shows for them, as have guys like KENTA and Naomichi Marufuji. Jumbo wrestled all over the states in the 80s.

Is it REALLY that big of a deal to just include Kobashi and Misawa? Is the tournament going to DIE if it doesn't have Goldust and Al Snow?

 

[klunderbunker]

So ROH doesn't count as an American promotion anymore? 'Cause Kobashi headlined shows for them, as have guys like KENTA and Naomichi Marufuji. Jumbo wrestled all over the states in the 80s.

Is it REALLY that big of a deal to just include Kobashi and Misawa? Is the tournament going to DIE if it doesn't have Goldust and Al Snow?

Dude, let it go. Do you REALLY think Sly and myself are stupid enough to put guys like Snow in this? I mean really, is that what you're implying? This is what we were trying to avoid and why I just got it out there. Kobashi and Misawa are definitely big names and no one is questioning that. However, at the end of the day the American main companies are the big stage that people see more of and that's just straight up true whether you want to accept it or not. We want people in this that are known, as in their body of work and more than their names and a single match.

Two or three people being out of a 128 person tournament isn't going to make it suck and if it does, I'm sorry but it's not going to change.

 

[X]

Seems more to me like you doing your usual bullshit about US Wrestling > All. There is NO WAY there are 128 wrestlers who deserve to be in this more than Misawa and Kobashi. Zero. Zilch.

PLENTY of people know who Misawa and Kobashi are. They've won countless awards and Kobashi has tons of US fans because of his ROH run.

I've just lost all interest in this tournament. Which is pretty sad considering I was one of the original people helping Shocky create this tournament in the first place before you ever even became a regular KB.

Sorry but that's bullshit. It would take no skin off your nose or hurt this tournament in any way to include TWO fucking Japanese wrestlers (who outdrew 99.9% of the people in this tournament). Seems more to me like you just want to make it abundantly clear that US Wrestling is superior to all, when this tournament should be about determining the greatest wrestler of all time, regardless of how many episodes of Raw they've been on.

'Kay, that's all I'm going to say. I'm done. /Rant

 

[klunderbunker]

Seems more to me like you doing your usual bullshit about US Wrestling > All. There is NO WAY there are 128 wrestlers who deserve to be in this more than Misawa and Kobashi. Zero. Zilch.

PLENTY of people know who Misawa and Kobashi are. They've won countless awards and Kobashi has tons of US fans because of his ROH run.

I've just lost all interest in this tournament. Which is pretty sad considering I was one of the original people helping Shocky create this tournament in the first place before you ever even became a regular KB.

Sorry but that's bullshit. It would take no skin off your nose or hurt this tournament in any way to include TWO fucking Japanese wrestlers (who outdrew 99.9% of the people in this tournament). Seems more to me like you just want to make it abundantly clear that US Wrestling is superior to all, when this tournament should be about determining the greatest wrestler of all time, regardless of how many episodes of Raw they've been on.

'Kay, that's all I'm going to say. I'm done. /Rant

1. ROH is not a major company. It never has been and it's not going to be for a long time. Headlining ROH doesn't mean much at all.

2. You've lost all interest? That's a shame, but this isn't changing. Sorry.

3. I love how you criticize me for saying I'm assuming people don't know who Misawa and Kobashi are, yet you apparently know who is on a list that isn't even finished yet.

4. If this were about the greatest wrestler of all time, it would be the "Let's Praise Hulk Hogan" thread.

 

[Mr. Truth]

I'm going to agree with X here. I'm not a huge puro fan by any means, but there is no way that you can honestly name 128 guys who are better than Kobashi and Misawa. I understand the concept of USA companies being the big and important ones in terms of global recognition, but to just leave out guys who are mega stars overseas is just flat out silly.

 

[Find'er Woo'er Ryder]

John Morrison FTW!!!!

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm going to agree with X here. I'm not a huge puro fan by any means, but there is no way that you can honestly name 128 guys who are better than Kobashi and Misawa. I understand the concept of USA companies being the big and important ones in terms of global recognition, but to just leave out guys who are mega stars overseas is just flat out silly.

Damn it we're not saying they're not big stars! Do you guys really think that I, KB, do not know their significance to wrestling? Is that what we're arguing here?

You have to keep something in mind here. Part of my job is to make this as big as it can be. On average, how many Misawa matches has the average fan on here seen? Now how many R-Truth matches has the same fan seen? I'm not saying Truth is better than Misawa, means more than Misawa or anything like that as it's crazy. However, more people know who he is, more people know about him, more people are familiar with him and his name is going to draw in more people.

More people are going to know about Liger and Muta than they are Kobashi and Misawa for one simple reason: they've performed on bigger stages. Liger and Muta were semi-regulars in WCW when WCW was a big deal. Kobashi's biggest exposure in America is in ROH. A lot of people here have heard his name and I'd bet some know why he's important. However, I'd bet quite a bit that not a lot of people are going to sit down and watch Kobashi vs. Misawa to make a single vote in this tournament. Some will, most won't, that's reality.

I knew it would piss people off, but it was a decision we had to make. This is the outcome.

 

[Mr. Truth]

I understand your point KB, I just disagree. While I carry far less of a voice than X on this site, I'm not going to take part in this tournament. To me, the tournament has a much smaller feel when you don't include international wrestlers. I also agree with the tournament being a great time to become educated on wrestlers people don't know as much about. That's how I learned about Misawa and Kobashi, outside of hearing that they're great puro guys. Maybe last year there were a few too many, but I don't want to see someone like R Truth in this tournament when someone like Misawa or Kobashi aren't.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

I always enjoyed learning about the wrestlers that I have little to no knowledge about. Most of them are all from Mexico and Japan.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Next to the Debate League, this is probably my favorite thing about this forum. Can't wait.