Strikeforce LD: The Last Emperor vs. The Tire Salesman

[gd]

I don't think Rogers won the 1st round, but it was close, could've went either way

 

[X]

I'm laughing my ass off right now at Sly arguing MMA with JMT.

 

[Slyfox696]

No, but you didn't bring up athleticism, only size/strength.

And even so, athleticism is only useful to take someone down, and I've admitted that Lesnar would be able to do that (though he wouldn't be able to do it at will like he did against Herring and Mir). However, I still don't think he would survive on the ground with him because of the way Fedor scrambles around, improves his position, and pulls off submissions out of literally nowhere.

But you agree that Lesnar could/would take him down.

So the question would be could the inexperienced but ever improving Lesnar get Fedor down without getting knocked out, and keep him down while avoiding a submission.

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think Lesnar could.

You're the only person I've seen say that, and I lurked a couple of different MMA forums for a good hour last night.

If I'm the only person saying that, then those people didn't watch the fight and/or are too enamored with Fedor.

Rogers won that first round. Fedor had a couple of moments of flash, but Rogers won the round.

Any punch Rogers hit Fedor with didn't even do anything.

It scores points, and regardless of whether or not Fedor came in with a scratch, the first punch still hit Fedor flush in the nose and opened him up.

The mount Rogers had was good,

As were the two or three good shots Rogers hit Fedor with.

but it came off of Fedor's aggression

Who cares? Rogers still got the mount position.

and Fedor had the mount for the last minute or so of the round, so that's irrelevant. Fedor also rocked Rogers with the left hook as I said, and he took him down twice.

And Rogers rocked Fedor, bloodied him, physically dominated him against the cage, and escaped everytime Fedor took him down.

Now to compare that with what Rogers did... he had the jab, the punches in the mount and some work against the cage. That gives Fedor the edge in my book, especially since Fedor was the aggressor, landed the harder shot and had Brett playing defense for almost the entire round. When someone is holding someone against the cage, they're on the defensive usually, and that's exactly what Rogers was on. Also, Rogers gassed himself out doing that, so it played out in Fedor's favor anyway.

Why is holding someone with good striking against the cage "defensive"? Why is it not "good strategy"? That's what I would call it. It's not like Rogers pushed him against the cage to defend an onslaught of punches, Rogers clearly came in with the plan to push Fedor against the fence. It wasn't a defensive move, it was completely offensive.

He would have to, eventually. Fedor's not Heath Herring.

Why would he have to? If Lesnar can get him down and keep him down, why would he stand up with him?

He's been able to do it against everyone else. And while I know everyone else isn't Brock Lesnar, there's no reason to fully believe Lesnar would be any different. I'm not saying Lesnar has zero chance of defeating Fedor, but I think people underestimate just how good Fedor is because he hasn't fought in the UFC. Lesnar has looked damn impressive in his last 3 fights, but that shouldn't be enough for anyone to think he would beat Fedor.

I don't underestimate how good Fedor, but at the same time, I think a lot of people credit Fedor too much as well. I mean, just using you as an example, you were dismissing an obvious strategy of Rogers to push Fedor against the cage as a "defensive" measure, which it obviously was not.

Fedor is damn good, but as Dana White always says, "styles makes fights". Clearly Lesnar couldn't stand up and box with Fedor, but I think he could get him on the ground, and wear him out on the ground.

To be honest, until Lesnar and Fedor actually fight, the only way I would start to drink the kool-aid of Lesnar beating Fedor is if he manhandled Big Nog like he did Herring/Mir, which is a fight we could get by the summer

I don't believe thinking Lesnar could be Fedor is "kool-aid", I think it's a case of a style getting the better of a great fighter.

Fedor is the better fighter, I won't deny that, but I think Lesnar would beat him simply based upon the style he works, in conjunction with his incredible combination of size, speed, and athleticism.

I'm laughing my ass off right now at Sly arguing MMA with JMT.

Why, because JMT posts in the MMA sections a lot more than I do?

Just what exactly in my posting are you using to assume I don't know as much about MMA as JMT does?

 

[X]

The fact that in this thread you've already admitted you don't watch as much MMA as JMT does?

 

[Slyfox696]

The fact that in this thread you've already admitted you don't watch as much MMA as JMT does?

Watching MMA and understanding fighting are two entirely different things.

 

[X]

Watching more MMA increases your knowledge of the sport.

Fedor would dispose of Brock pretty easily at this point in time. We'll need to see some more impressive victories from Brock before we can even mention his name next to Fedor, possibly the greatest MMA fighter to ever live.

 

[Slyfox696]

Watching more MMA increases your knowledge of the sport.

It increases your knowledge of the history of the sport, not how the sport actually works.

If someone were to never have trained, or watched MMA, before, then sure, it could help. But just like baseball, if you've done it enough and watched it enough, you can manage most baseball situations. Doesn't mean you'd be a good manager, but you understand the concept of lefty vs. lefty, running on a 2-0 count, not making first and last out at third, etc.

So it goes with MMA. Fighting is fighting.

Fedor would dispose of Brock pretty easily at this point in time. We'll need to see some more impressive victories from Brock before we can even mention his name next to Fedor, possibly the greatest MMA fighter to ever live.

That doesn't make sense. MMA is not professional wrestling, where you have to work your way up the card. Having more impressive victories isn't going to change fighting styles, and strengths and weaknesses.

 

[X]

What do you mean working your way up the card Sly? Of course you have to do that in MMA, that's the whole purpose of the divisions and their rankings. You don't just get a title shot because you looked good in a fight, you have to get some wins under your belt.

Regardless of victories, right now I still don't see Brock standing a chance with Fedor. Fedor is just so much better than everyone else in the sport it's downright scary.

 

[Slyfox696]

What do you mean working your way up the card Sly? Of course you have to do that in MMA, that's the whole purpose of the divisions and their rankings. You don't just get a title shot because you looked good in a fight, you have to get some wins under your belt.

But "looking impressive" isn't going to change whether or not you can beat another fighter. Either you can or you can't. Fighting God tomorrow won't change whether or not Lesnar can beat Fedor right now.

That's what I mean.

Regardless of victories, right now I still don't see Brock standing a chance with Fedor. Fedor is just so much better than everyone else in the sport it's downright scary.

He's good, no doubt. But I wouldn't say better than everyone else in the sport, just better (maybe) than everyone else in the Heavyweight division. If we start talking about "the sport", then that opens a whole new can of worms.

 

[X]

True, but I don't usually like to do the whole "pound for pound" comparisons.

 

[jmt225]

But you agree that Lesnar could/would take him down.

Yes, but not at will, and I don't think he would be able to hold him down, which is ultimately I guess where we disagree.

So the question would be could the inexperienced but ever improving Lesnar get Fedor down without getting knocked out, and keep him down while avoiding a submission.

Yes, and I don't think he'd be able to do it.

I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think Lesnar could.

It's actually a pretty big stretch. The fact remains, man, that Brock only has a few fights under his belt, and none of his opponents were anything like Fedor.

Let me put it like this for you, Sly:

Fedor is Brett Favre, and Brock Lesnar is Aaron Rogers. You sound like an Aaron Rogers fan right now, Sly.

If I'm the only person saying that, then those people didn't watch the fight and/or are too enamored with Fedor.

Or maybe you're just wrong here? Hell, two of the Sherdog judges seem to agree with me on the matter. Hopefully I can find somewhere what the official judges scored the first round.

Rogers won that first round. Fedor had a couple of moments of flash, but Rogers won the round.

No, he did not, Sly. Those couple of moments of flash as you put it were more than anything Rogers did, which is what ultimately counts.

It scores points, and regardless of whether or not Fedor came in with a scratch, the first punch still hit Fedor flush in the nose and opened him up.

Rogers did no damage whatsoever to Fedor, and those so-called "points" just don't exist in MMA when you don't do anything to improve your position. When Rogers got Fedor up against the cage, he didn't hold him there longand it didn't lead to him having anything successful.

As were the two or three good shots Rogers hit Fedor with.

What, when they were on the ground? Those shots had ZERO affect on Fedor. Zero.

Who cares? Rogers still got the mount position.

Yeah, because FEDOR was the one pushing the fight, which is something judges look at. Fedor was also dictating where the fight took place, which is something else the judges judge a fight by. Moreover, the fact that Rogers got the mount and couldn't do anything with it hurts his case as well.

And Rogers rocked Fedor, bloodied him, physically dominated him against the cage, and escaped everytime Fedor took him down.

When did Rogers rock Fedor? I must have missed that, because Fedor not once looked dazed in that fight. And I already told you that Fedor had a cut on the nose going into the fight. Besides, Fedor has always cut easily, and it's just more impressive how he's able to take a deep cut and keep his composure.

Why is holding someone with good striking against the cage "defensive"?

What "good striking"? That was Rogers avoiding strikes.

Why is it not "good strategy"?

Because he gassed himself and it was stupid. Rogers got scared in the 1st round and went away from his best attribute, which is striking. He was a man on the run.

That's what I would call it. It's not like Rogers pushed him against the cage to defend an onslaught of punches, Rogers clearly came in with the plan to push Fedor against the fence. It wasn't a defensive move, it was completely offensive.

No it was not. That's simply not how Rogers fights, and there's no sense in him doing that. I mean, what... is Fedor going to gas? Is Rogers going to be able to do ANYTHING to Fedor if it goes to the ground? Absolutely not... so what was the point? The point was that Rogers was losing and he started getting defensive, so he put Fedor against the cage.

Why would he have to? If Lesnar can get him down and keep him down, why would he stand up with him?

But I'm not so sure Lesnar would be able to keep him down. And I'm not saying Lesnar could take him down every time, but yes... I admit that Lesnar's talented enough to get a couple of takedowns on Fedor. However, I would highly doubt it would lead to anything other than Brock getting submitted or Fedor eventually escaping and getting it back on the feet.

I don't underestimate how good Fedor, but at the same time, I think a lot of people credit Fedor too much as well. I mean, just using you as an example, you were dismissing an obvious strategy of Rogers to push Fedor against the cage as a "defensive" measure, which it obviously was not.

That wasn't Rogers strategy, though. His strategy was to obviously stand with Fedor, but with Fedor's unorthodox style throwing him off and the fact that Fedor throw him down look a school girl in the first minute, it all completely changed Rogers "gameplan," and he just wanted to escape the first round. Credit to him that he did, but just because he escaped it doesn't mean he won it.

Fedor is damn good, but as Dana White always says, "styles makes fights". Clearly Lesnar couldn't stand up and box with Fedor, but I think he could get him on the ground, and wear him out on the ground.

Exactly. And I think Fedor's style is perfect to defeat someone like Lesnar. I guess we just have to agree to disagree here.

I don't believe thinking Lesnar could be Fedor is "kool-aid", I think it's a case of a style getting the better of a great fighter.

I didn't mean to put it over like that; I was just saying if Lesnar defeats Big Nog with ease, then I'll start 2nd guessing my opinion on this matter. But until then, I picture Fedor crushing Lesnar's face or tearing his arm off.