[Official] John Cena Thread

[SSJPhenom]

Let's look at this way. Is Cena the champ because he is the best or is Cena the Champ because he represents the WWE in a positive fashion?

Don't get me wrong! A champion does have an image to uphold and should be able to represent positively, but a champion should also be the best and Cena isn't that guy! I've said it before and I will say it again. I'm back!

 

[Slyfox696]

Let's look at this way. Is Cena the champ because he is the best or is Cena the Champ because he represents the WWE in a positive fashion?

Don't get me wrong! A champion does have an image to uphold and should be able to represent positively, but a champion should also be the best and Cena isn't that guy! I've said it before and I will say it again. I'm back!

He's the champion because he's the best man for the job. He does so many positive things for the company, on-screen and off, that makes him the best. The only one who really comes close is Triple H.

Who else do you believe would make a better champion than John Cena?

 

[RatedRSE]

Let me say ahead of time that this may have already been brought up, but I've been away from this thread for a few days and I apologize.

I was just curious what all of your thoughts are on the rematch at Unforgiven for the WWE Title?

I was fairly certain that Cena would retain at Summerslam and Orton would win the rematch. However, with Orton being named in the Sports Illustrated Steroid & Drug article, do you think that is going to hold some weight on whether he holds the biggest championship in the company?

I like both Orton and Cena for different reasons, so I personally have no problem with him taking the belt at Unforgiven. But do you think this will have any impact on the booking decision?

I personally see Cena retaining again at Unforgiven. Especially since once again Orton has had the upper hand for pretty much all of the fued, with the exception of the SS match.

 

[Lil Wes]

Now, if you compare New Years Revolution through Judgement Day for 2007 against 2006, it actually did BETTER than the same PPVs from 2006, even WITH the price increase.

Well If we are talking buyrates...Not so fast my friend. If I misunderstood you in anyway just let me know.

New Year's Revolution- Down.
2006 0.85
2007 0.55

Royal Rumble-Down.
2006 1.31
2007 1.25

No Way Out-Really shouldn't matter...Shit PPV...Shit Main Event that has 0 to do with Cena...

WM 23-Up.
2006 2.33
2007 2.97

Backlash-Down.
2006 0.55
2007 0.49

Judgement Day-Down.
2006 0.63
2007 0.61


So from the buyrate point. All have went down from NYR to Judgement Day(Ex WM) of 2007.

NYR absolutely stunk it up from the previous year. Even with Cena taking on an Undefeated monster...

Well, 2006 Survivor Series did better than 2005. But, what IS sad is that Vengeance the last two years has done better or almost as well as Survivor Series.

Wrong...


Vengeance 2005-2007-

2005 0.92
2006 0.84
2007 0.61

Survivor Series 05-06-

2005 0.94
2006 0.96

Clearly SS blew away Vengeance in terms of buyrates(Close Call in 05) and with the all the talent returning around the time and Trips returning back to the throne. SS will once again spark a big buyrate.

The price increase from $34.95 to $39.95.

5 Bucks?? You can't plain a simple 5 dollars on a decrease in PPV buyrates. That's ridiculous. The PPV's are lackluster, Therefore they draw badly.

I am on a forum where Pro-Cena is just as strong, if not stronger, than Anti-Cena.

I'm at 3 including this one and read about 5 in all and visited others. Never have I once ran into a Pro-Cena forum.
.

I agree with you, I am not a big fan of women's wrestling. But, Trish/Lita was a big match going into Unforgiven. There is no denying that. And, combine that with the fact it was Trish's last match, in her hometown, AND she won the title, it's not hard to understand why people would vote for it.

That explains why it still was behind a fucking ass kissing...Hmmm...

That's really misleading. Only two PPVs this year have had a bad buyrate. Backlash and One Night Stand.

Guess who had just retained the WWE title a month before? Also a very good looking main event and not a bad overall card.

I've explain Backlash and ONS, and Judgment Day did a very good buy rate for a "B" PPV.

All dropped from 2006 and yet you still said earlier in the thread WWE is gaining buyrates. That is wrong.

That's the point. If people had really lost interest in Cena, then he'd be getting Charlie Haas pops.

Khali got a few pops when he took out Cena for god's sake. Cena STFU'ed Regal and was booed.

I don't know about Vengeance, but he was the crowd favorite at Great American Bash.

Vengeance was half/half. Crowd was really behind Lashley it seemed. GAB I agree Cena had the slight edge. But funny how the crowd seems to always go dead silent when he retains....

230,000 buys is a solid number. 230,000 was the estimate for the buys for Great American Bash.

I'll wait for the real buyrate.

Rated RSE-

I was just curious what all of your thoughts are on the rematch at Unforgiven for the WWE Title?

I'm ready for it. Hoping to see another good match from Cena/RKO. Hopefully it isn't gimmicked as I think they should save a big gimmick match for later. I'm not a fan of them anyways really.

I was fairly certain that Cena would retain at Summerslam and Orton would win the rematch. However, with Orton being named in the Sports Illustrated Steroid & Drug article, do you think that is going to hold some weight on whether he holds the biggest championship in the company?

Without a doubt. With the wole "List" thing going on and his name being on the list is going to hurt any sort of shot at holding the title anytime soon. It would look bad on WWE's Part giving the belt to someone that is involved with the scandal. John Morrison was just stripped so therefore they are looking to keep titles away from any conterversy.

I like both Orton and Cena for different reasons, so I personally have no problem with him taking the belt at Unforgiven. But do you think this will have any impact on the booking decision?

Yes. Cena will win. No doubt in my mind. It will be typical WWE booking with Cena overcoming the odds despite Randy Orton getting into his head. Cena will be holding for a full year. WWE will want that on Cena's record.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well If we are talking buyrates...Not so fast my friend. If I misunderstood you in anyway just let me know.

New Year's Revolution- Down.
2006 0.85
2007 0.55

Royal Rumble-Down.
2006 1.31
2007 1.25

No Way Out-Really shouldn't matter...Shit PPV...Shit Main Event that has 0 to do with Cena...

WM 23-Up.
2006 2.33
2007 2.97

Backlash-Down.
2006 0.55
2007 0.49

Judgement Day-Down.
2006 0.63
2007 0.61


So from the buyrate point. All have went down from NYR to Judgement Day(Ex WM) of 2007.

NYR absolutely stunk it up from the previous year. Even with Cena taking on an Undefeated monster...

Lee Corso, you should not use buyrates to determine PPV successes. You should use total number of buys. There are a lot of factors that go into a buyrate like the number you posted, in terms of availability, exposure, carriers, so on. The same thing happens when talking about TV ratings, which is why a 3.0 Smackdown rating draws roughly the same viewers as a 3.5 Raw rating.

So, go by total buys. I've provided all of them for you...somewhere...in another thread. I recommend putting them in an Excel spreadsheet.

And, again, you don't go by the buys, but rather by the revenue that was created from those buys.

So, let's take the 1st six PPV shows, minus Wrestlemania in 2006.

NYR = 294,000
RR = 548,000
NWO = 219,000
WM = 958,000 (don't use yet)
Backlash = 213,000
JD = 238,000

When you total the number of buys for those shows, you get a total buy of 1,512,000. So, for 5 of the first 6 shows, you get a total buys number of 1,512,000.

Now, let's look at 2007.

NYR = 220,000
RR = 491,000
NWO = 218,000
WM = 1,188,000 (save for later)
Backlash = 194,000
JD = 242,000

Total: 1,365,000


Now, you're probably saying, "Slyfox, look. 2007 drew fewer buys than 2006". And, you'd be right. But, the WWE doesn't look at total buys. They look at revenue created from those buys. That's what any good company does. So, let's examine those numbers a little closer. For 5 of the first 6 PPVs in 2006, the price tag was $34.95 per PPV (except WM, which is why we are saving that for later).

1,512,000 x $34.95 = $52,844,400

In 2007, the price tag was $39.95

1,365,000 x $39.95 = $54,531,750

So, money created from PPVs in 2007 was actually HIGHER than money created from PPVs in 2006.

Now, we've been saving Wrestlemania. How come? Because, in both years, the price tag for Wrestlemania has been $49.99. Here are the buys for each Wrestlemania of the last two years.

2006: 958,000
2007: 1,188,000

So, with many more buys, at the same price, it becomes clear that PPV business, for the first 6 PPVs of 2007, actually did BETTER than it did in 2006.

Now, I'm not going to take you through the whole process of doing so, but when comparing the total amount of revenue created from 2006 and 2007, 2007 has made more money for the WWE than have 2006 in PPV buys thus far (from NYR-GAB).

So, the PPV business for the WWE has actually gone up this year.

Wrong...


Vengeance 2005-2007-

2005 0.92
2006 0.84
2007 0.61

Survivor Series 05-06-

2005 0.94
2006 0.96

Clearly SS blew away Vengeance in terms of buyrates(Close Call in 05) and with the all the talent returning around the time and Trips returning back to the throne. SS will once again spark a big buyrate.

Vengeance 2005: 429,000
Survivor Series 2005: 375,000

Vengeance 2006: 337,000
Survivor Series 2006: 383,000

Source: http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/YET2006pressrelease.pdf

Note, my source is from the official WWE corporate page.

So, like I said, "Well, 2006 Survivor Series did better than 2005. But, what IS sad is that Vengeance the last two years has done better or almost as well as Survivor Series."

5 Bucks?? You can't plain a simple 5 dollars on a decrease in PPV buyrates. That's ridiculous. The PPV's are lackluster, Therefore they draw badly.

Sure you can. Prove to me you cannot. Every time they up the price of a PPV, average PPV buys go down. But, the revenue created from the PPV buys is what the WWE goes by, and so, is the reason why they keep hiking the prices.

PPVs in 2007 are no more "lackluster" than they were in 2004 or 2005 or 2006. There are just so many more of them in 2006 than there were in 2004, that it tends to drop buyrates even lower, saturate the market, and cause an apparent decrease in the business. Additionally, TNA and ROH have both grown considerably since 2004, and the business UFC is doing is phenomenal.

I'm at 3 including this one and read about 5 in all and visited others. Never have I once ran into a Pro-Cena forum.

Then you are not going to the right ones? I'm a member of 2 different forums where Cena is respected by many posters, maybe more than those who don't. And, I'm only a member of 3 forums. So, 67% of the forums I'm on respect John Cena.

That explains why it still was behind a fucking ass kissing...Hmmm...

I have no idea what your argument was about. I wasn't following at all. I'm just saying that it could have been a big moment. Other than that, I have no clue what's going on.

Guess who had just retained the WWE title a month before?

The same guy who has retained the title at every PPV since Unforgiven 2006?

Not sure what your point is.

All dropped from 2006 and yet you still said earlier in the thread WWE is gaining buyrates. That is wrong.

Judgement Day 2007 did better than Judgment Day 2006.

2006: 238,000
2007: 242,000

source: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070802/20070802005290.html?.v=1

Note that this yahoo report is the official release put out by the WWE. I could find it on the WWE page if I wanted, but this was just easier.

Khali got a few pops when he took out Cena for god's sake. Cena STFU'ed Regal and was booed.

How does that refute what I said? If people were really getting tired of Cena, he'd be getting the same reaction as Charlie Haas.

Your point has no merit. People are not tired of John Cena.

But funny how the crowd seems to always go dead silent when he retains....

I'm watching the end of The Great American Bash right now, and when Cena wins it blows the roof off the place. They even show a guy who is holding his ears because of the noise.

Again, you seem to be fudging some truths...

I'll wait for the real buyrate.

You can probably expect a change of no more than 10,000 buys either way. Generally, that seems to be how it goes for most PPVs that are not Wrestlemania. But, fair enough.

 

[Lee]

And, again, you don't go by the buys, but rather by the revenue that was created from those buys.

People are not tired of John Cena.

So we no longer go on the buys but on the revenue, that's interesting because if buys are going DOWN that means people are switching off, ignore the revenue, buys as a whole are going down, we're agreed at that? Good


Now who has been the champ all this year? That's right John Cena, maybe people switching off is because they're sick of him, that's what the argument was about NOT about how much money WWE are making, people are sick of Cena as champ and it's becoming more apparent as the weeks go on.

 

[Slyfox696]

So we no longer go on the buys but on the revenue, that's interesting because if buys are going DOWN that means people are switching off, ignore the revenue, buys as a whole are going down, we're agreed at that? Good

Did you even read the whole thing?

You can't go by total buys because the price for those PPVs jumped by $5 from the year before. Now, when all PPVs have the same constant price from the year before, then you can measure total buys, because revenue created from them will be the same.

The WWE doesn't care about total buys. If they did, PPV prices would be at $15 a pop. Hell, they'd offer them for $5 if they wanted huge buyrates. What the WWE DOES care about is the revenue created off of those buys. Which is why they keep jacking the price of PPVs up, even though the average buyrate suffers.

It's basic economics.

The only way you can judge the interest in the product using total buys is when PPVs share the same price. And that isn't applicable here.

Now who has been the champ all this year? That's right John Cena, maybe people switching off is because they're sick of him, that's what the argument was about NOT about how much money WWE are making, people are sick of Cena as champ and it's becoming more apparent as the weeks go on.

Of course the argument is how much money the WWE is making. That's the whole point of business! Why do people not understand that everything the WWE does is to maximize their profits?

Good god, business is not this hard to understand.

 

[a7xoff]

People are sick of Cena as champ... People are sick of Khali as champ too though. Buyrates going down are not because of one match. WWE has not turned out a PPV worth 40$ in a long time... If Cena looses at Unforgiven and the rest of the show is crap then I made a good choice to not bother spending the money. Yes buyrates while Cena is champ have gone south, but that does not mean much. If it were a few years back, and the Raw brand PPV's were going south I'd be a bit more inclined to belive

 

[SSJPhenom]

Why would we argue buys and buyrates? We know that, that is the whole point of business, but we don't work for WWE do we? So why should we care what the buys or buyrates are. Let's keep this thread to a fan based thread. I could care less what the buys and buyrates are, it doesn't matter to me because I'm not getting paid by WWE. But the fact that my favorite television show in the whole world is being ruined by this so called champion is what really makes my ass itch! John Cena is a paper champion and by that I mean that he looks good on paper so they keep as champ. He does do good out of the ring. I love his work ethic and his respect for charity and the fans that brought him where he is, but damnit, he can not perform in the sqaured circle! I don't give a damn if makes the WWE money, that's why they like him, that shouldn't be why you, SLYFOX, like him! He is nothing more than an eye sore on TV! He has wore out his welcome and it is time for a more talented WRESTLER, not superstar, to take his place!

 

[Slyfox696]

Why would we argue buys and buyrates? We know that, that is the whole point of business, but we don't work for WWE do we? So why should we care what the buys or buyrates are.

To show why John Cena is the champion, and to prove the fact that people are NOT tired of John Cena.

Just like we talk about ratings and how Cena gets the highest quarter hour rating usually, proving that many people find him interesting, and how we talk about merchandise sales, talking about how many people like him.

Let's keep this thread to a fan based thread. I could care less what the buys and buyrates are, it doesn't matter to me because I'm not getting paid by WWE. But the fact that my favorite television show in the whole world is being ruined by this so called champion is what really makes my ass itch!

But, the point is, that it's only seemingly ruined to YOU. It's important to talk about the business factors to show that you are or are not the only one who feels the same.

I don't give a damn if makes the WWE money, that's why they like him, that shouldn't be why you, SLYFOX, like him!

Many times I've explained why I like him and why he is a good wrestler.

He is nothing more than an eye sore on TV! He has wore out his welcome and it is time for a more talented WRESTLER, not superstar, to take his place!

Making money is part of being a talented wrestler. Making the most money consistently over a long period of time is a good determinant of talent.

John Cena is a highly talented wrestler.

 

[Lil Wes]

To show why John Cena is the champion, and to prove the fact that people are NOT tired of John Cena.

That explains why he is being booed quite a bit lately? Face it for fucks sake. WE ARE TIRED OF CENA! There is a group of people that like the guy(Kids,Women) and there's the ones that don't. Jesus Christ it isn't that hard to understand. PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF JOHN CENA. Period. That is why he is being booed every fucking time he defends the title, That's why the whole arena goes silent every time he retains. On the biggest stage of them all he has only been cheered once. He comes back to the same arena 3 years later and is booed right out of it. His own hometown boo's him now for god's sake. Just because you hear the women going into orgasm mode when he removes his shirt doesn't mean people aren't tired of him.

Just like we talk about ratings and how Cena gets the highest quarter hour rating usually,

Cena usually opens up the show. The beginning of the show always has alot of viewers. The ratings aren't anything special by the way.

I'd like to see proof of that if you could.

proving that many people find him interesting, and how we talk about merchandise sales, talking about how many people like him.

Lets talk about how his character is stale, Let's talk about how is title reign is stale. Let's talk about why RAW is always a shit show until McMoron comes up with an interesting storyline like right about now.

Many times I've explained why I like him and why he is a good wrestler.

Many times people including myself have told you why they do not think he is a good wrestler as well...

John Cena is a highly talented wrestler.

Money making wise...I guess...In-Ring wise he is shit. SummerSlam pretty much proved that to everyone surely.

 

[Slyfox696]

That explains why he is being booed quite a bit lately? Face it for fucks sake. WE ARE TIRED OF CENA! There is a group of people that like the guy(Kids,Women) and there's the ones that don't. Jesus Christ it isn't that hard to understand. PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF JOHN CENA. Period. That is why he is being booed every fucking time he defends the title, That's why the whole arena goes silent every time he retains. On the biggest stage of them all he has only been cheered once. He comes back to the same arena 3 years later and is booed right out of it. His own hometown boo's him now for god's sake. Just because you hear the women going into orgasm mode when he removes his shirt doesn't mean people aren't tired of him.

You're making stuff up now. First, if people were really tired of Cena, they'd quit watching. That hasn't happened, either for Raw or for his segments. Secondly, he gets cheered most of the time when he comes out to the ring. Many times, the boos you hear occur when the arena is quieter, and makes the boos stand out much more. Generally, when he comes out to the ring, or wins a match, it is mostly cheered. Cena got a GREAT reaction on Raw in Boston just a couple weeks ago. Finally, when Cena retains there is usually a very good response, good or bad.

Cena usually opens up the show. The beginning of the show always has alot of viewers. The ratings aren't anything special by the way.

Cena was in the middle of the show on Monday. Many times he is advertised in main-event. Cena appears all over the show, depending on the week.

I'd like to see proof of that if you could.

The Wrestling Observer details which wrestlers gain viewers and lose viewers as the show goes on. I don't subscribe to it personally, but a couple of people I know from online do. I go by their word, and the numbers they have posted.

Lets talk about how his character is stale, Let's talk about how is title reign is stale. Let's talk about why RAW is always a shit show until McMoron comes up with an interesting storyline like right about now.

That is all completely subjective and your opinion. I completely disagree. Which of us is right?

Who knows. But, what isn't objective are things like ratings, revenue and merchandise sales.

Many times people including myself have told you why they do not think he is a good wrestler as well...

That has nothing to do with why I said what I said. Go back and read the context in which I posted that.

Money making wise...I guess...In-Ring wise he is shit. SummerSlam pretty much proved that to everyone surely.

You mean how it was just another good match under his belt?

But, right. Randy Orton carried him correct? Even though it'd be the first good match Randy Orton has ever carried in his entire career, and it just happens to coincide with Cena, who has many good matches in his career, clearly Orton carried him.

How silly can your blind hate be?

 

[Kennedy]

Personally, I quite like Cena, agreed he has a dodgy moveset, but he is a good champ and they put him against the wrong opponents, i think he'd make a good heel champ, I dont want Orton as champ though

 

[SSJPhenom]

If you want to talk about merchandise sales let's look at last year. I don't have any proof, but I am pretty sure that DX out sold Cena in everyway as far as merchandise goes. How many true fans, other than little kids, really wanted to see DX get back together? Sure, it was interesting for awhile, but it got old fast and now look. There is a whole thread on this site talking about how DX shouldn't get back together!

You know my opinion on Cena and what I think of him! I'm tired of saying it. I'm going to stick with what I know. I know from live events I could count on one hand how many adults were wearing Cena shirts or arm bands as opposed to children 12 and under. I could count on one hand how many adults were cheering Cena around me as opposed to children 12 and under. Why do children like Cena? Is it because he puts on a quality show? No! It is for the same reason that children liked Ultimate Warrior in the early 90's. They don't know any better! Let's look at wrestlers like Stone Cold and The Rock. The majority of their fans were fans who ranged from 18 to 25 (reference: PWI). Why? Because they were quality wrestlers. Let's look at Taker's fan base. Same as Austin's and The Rock's!

All I am saying is. If Cena could perform better in the ring, he will have gained the respect of not only myself, but a whole lot of other fans! He doesn't just deserve the title because he has become representation of the company. He should also have to represent wrestling to hold the title. I mean, hell, I can do charity work too. Am I qualified to be the Champ? Because it looks like that's all Cena can do!

 

[Slyfox696]

Why do children like Cena? Is it because he puts on a quality show? No! It is for the same reason that children liked Ultimate Warrior in the early 90's. They don't know any better!

Wrong. It's not because children don't know any better. It's because they have a charisma and an ability to connect with the audience.

There's a difference.

Let's look at wrestlers like Stone Cold and The Rock. The majority of their fans were fans who ranged from 18 to 25 (reference: PWI).

Who cares? Are you trying to say that 18-25 fans are more important than any and all other fans?

Why? Because they were quality wrestlers.

While I agree they were quality wrestlers, they appealed to fans because of their promo ability. Not because of their in-ring ability. If it was because of in-ring ability Austin would have been over a long time before.

Let's look at Taker's fan base. Same as Austin's and The Rock's!

A good percentage of Undertaker's fanbase is children as well.

All I am saying is. If Cena could perform better in the ring, he will have gained the respect of not only myself, but a whole lot of other fans!

How would you like Cena to perform better. Explain to me how Cena can become a better wrestler.

He doesn't just deserve the title because he has become representation of the company.

He's champion because he makes the company a lot of money. Which, is the goal of any good champion.

Companies only put the belt on people who can draw. Even ROH only puts their belt on drawing wrestlers.

He should also have to represent wrestling to hold the title.

Do you even understand the complexity of this statement? Or, is it just that he doesn't have a bunch of moves and thus sucks as a wrestler?

Because it looks like that's all Cena can do!

Well that, and have 2 different 2007 MOTYC, as well as 2 more matches that are in contention.

But, of course, Cena sucks rights? I mean, if a large quantity of quality matches doesn't determine who is a good wrestler, what does? Some arbitrarily set number of moves? Having no children as your fans?

Please tell me.

 

[SSJPhenom]

As always with you Mr. Fox! You completely and utterly miss the point that I am trying to get across! You seem to twist everyone's statements on this thread to suit what you need.

Being able to draw, that's fine. Having a large number of children for fans, could care less. Making the WWE alot of money, don't give a shit! You seem to think that the only thing a wrestler needs to be good his a mic and the ability to run their mouth! Well hell, if that is the case, then I am shoe in for WWE champion. Are you honestly trying to justify that a good wrestler is a person who can talk on a mic and nothing more, but buyrates and charity work? While that has alot to do with it. I think you need to look back in time! Bret Hart, great wrestler and a bad talker, but still, WWE Champion. Chris Benoit, great wrestler and a bad talker, but still, World Champion. Kurt Angle, Bob Backlund, Rey Mysterio, they all fall in that category as well.

You said that Austin could cut promos and that is why he got over and that if it was wrestling ability alone he would have been over long ago! I can't agree. It was mainly his character of Stone Cold Steve Austin that got him over! Every promo that he cut, while he was Stunning Steve or The Ringmaster was a quality promo and lest us forget that while teamed with Brian Pillman he was extremely popular in WCW, but it wasn't his wrestling ability was it? No, it was his meet and greets, promo work, and overall image for the company.

I don't think you understand the complexity of the statement, "He should also have to represent wrestling to hold the title." What I mean with this statement is simple, Cena should be a better in ring performer to be the champ. You always seem to relate me to his limited moveset. You're right, that sucks, but that isn't the whole problem. And you're right. He does have some quality matches under his belt, but not all the credit can go to Cena, but before you respond, I am not saying that he has been carried by anyone, but all of Cena's good matches seem to be him getting his ass whipped and then pulling out his limited moveset and winning, which goes to show that, that is the reason that he doesn't carry the offense in a match. He doesn't have enough moves for it! Cena should be able to wrestle to be the Champ, pure and simple.

His character is stale and his reign is long over due. The only reason that alot of us continue to watch is for that glorious moment when he drops the belt to someone else!

 

[Slyfox696]

As always with you Mr. Fox! You completely and utterly miss the point that I am trying to get across! You seem to twist everyone's statements on this thread to suit what you need.

I would argue that it is you that do not understand the point. You cannot separate business from this argument, because business is the driving force which determines the quality of Cena's run. Not some artificially decided set of criterion that YOU deem important.

You seem to think that the only thing a wrestler needs to be good his a mic and the ability to run their mouth!

When did I say that?

I said that a wrestler needs to be able to make his company money. It's been like that since the beginning of professional wrestling.

Are you honestly trying to justify that a good wrestler is a person who can talk on a mic and nothing more, but buyrates and charity work?

What I'm saying is that wrestling is an Entertainment Business. And, how else do you determine success in the Entertainment Business of wrestling, except by amount of money created?

It's real simple. If a wrestler wasn't entertaining, then people wouldn't pay to see him in the long-term. Because people pay to see Cena, and have for years, he is entertaining. And, an entertaining wrestler is a good one.

It's not really that difficult of a concept.

You said that Austin could cut promos and that is why he got over and that if it was wrestling ability alone he would have been over long ago! I can't agree. It was mainly his character of Stone Cold Steve Austin that got him over! Every promo that he cut, while he was Stunning Steve or The Ringmaster was a quality promo and lest us forget that while teamed with Brian Pillman he was extremely popular in WCW, but it wasn't his wrestling ability was it? No, it was his meet and greets, promo work, and overall image for the company.

That is precisely what I said.

That Steve Austin was a good wrestler, but was only mega over because of his promo ability. You just repeated what I said.

I don't think you understand the complexity of the statement, "He should also have to represent wrestling to hold the title." What I mean with this statement is simple, Cena should be a better in ring performer to be the champ.

Why? He makes the company more money than anyone else, save perhaps Triple H. That's the requirement for being champion. Why is it you don't understand this?

You always seem to relate me to his limited moveset.

Then why do you think he sucks as a wrestler, and how can he improve?

He does have some quality matches under his belt, but not all the credit can go to Cena, but before you respond, I am not saying that he has been carried by anyone, but all of Cena's good matches seem to be him getting his ass whipped and then pulling out his limited moveset and winning, which goes to show that, that is the reason that he doesn't carry the offense in a match.

It doesn't change the fact that he has had good matches with many different wrestlers. He's had them with guys of different shapes and sizes, and different wrestling styles. He's done it in classic 1-on-1 matches, and gimmick matches. He's done it while being heavily booed, and while being heavily cheered.

The only constant in all of his good matches over the last 2 and a half years is that Cena was a part of them.

that is the reason that he doesn't carry the offense in a match. He doesn't have enough moves for it!

Have you not seen the HBK match from Raw? You know, one of the two MOTYC he's put on this year?

Cena should be able to wrestle to be the Champ, pure and simple.

You've yet to explain to me why you don't think he can wrestle. If not because of limited moves, what is it?

And, that is a common misconception of IWC fans. You don't have to be a great wrestler to be the champion. You have to make the company a lot of money. THAT is how you get to be champion. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you'll understand why business is done the way it is, and the sooner you'll be able to better enjoy the product.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I've enjoyed the product all of my life! FYI: I majored in business at the University of KY. I know and understand the business aspect of it. I would love John Cena were WWE my employer, but because they aren't and I am just a fan of the product, I could care less how much he puts in Vince's pocket!

Let's see where he can improve. We'll start on areas that you argue he does best. Gimmick: His gimmick is lame and stale. I haven't figured out what he is supposed to be lately. Is he a thug or is a soldier? I don't know and I don't think you do either! Promos: Same exact thing over and over and over again. Here is your typical Cena promo, (*clears throat*) "The Champ is still here, you want some come get some, I don't make excuses and I don't back down from nobody!" Good enough? Wrestling: Punch here, shoulder block there, and occasional block buster! Now heres the part that he gets his ass whipped for about 20 consecutive minutes. Back body drop, 5 knuckle shuffle, and either F-U or STF-U. Match over Cena retains! Did I leave something out? Please tell me if I did!

 

[Slyfox696]

I've enjoyed the product all of my life! FYI: I majored in business at the University of KY. I know and understand the business aspect of it. I would love John Cena were WWE my employer, but because they aren't and I am just a fan of the product, I could care less how much he puts in Vince's pocket!

Doesn't change the fact that you have to be able to understand the business side of the spectrum when having a discussion.

Let's see where he can improve. We'll start on areas that you argue he does best. Gimmick: His gimmick is lame and stale. I haven't figured out what he is supposed to be lately. Is he a thug or is a soldier? I don't know and I don't think you do either! Promos: Same exact thing over and over and over again.

He's neither. He's John Cena. He's the Old School Face, who takes on all challenges, who does what is right, and isn't afraid of anyone.

Wrestling: Punch here, shoulder block there, and occasional block buster! Now heres the part that he gets his ass whipped for about 20 consecutive minutes. Back body drop, 5 knuckle shuffle, and either F-U or STF-U. Match over Cena retains! Did I leave something out? Please tell me if I did!

Yes, you left out what makes him a bad wrestler.

Here's a typical Steve Austin match, circa 1999. Punch, kick, stomp, Lou Thesz Press, more kicks, more punches, Stunner. And we've both already agreed he was a good wrestler.

So, explain what makes Cena a bad wrestler.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Steve Austin established his career before he began to become repetitive. What I mean by that is, while a member of the Hollywood Blondes he utilized alot of different wrestling moves and holds. Suplexs, atomic drops, back body drops, headlocks. Him and Flyin Brian really mixed it up. Especially with their double team moves. Do you disagree? While the Ringmaster. He utilized the cobra clutch/million dollar dream as his finisher and he also used alot of the same moves as his previous persona did. Do you disagree? When he first became Steve Austin, he utilized alot of the same moves. His match with Bret Hart at WM 13, we both agree that it was a classic. If you think he was repetitive watch it again. You'll see suplexes, the elbow from the middle rope, he even employs a surf board submission at one point in the match. Watch his first two WM matches with The Rock. He employs the Sharp Shooter, a alot of the a for mentioned moves. So I don't think that he is or was as repetitive as John Cena!

Cena has employed the same moveset since his ruthless aggression days on SD! What else has he done. All of our current wrestlers have changed their style at some point in their career. Has Cena? No not at all!

 

[Slyfox696]

Steve Austin established his career before he began to become repetitive. What I mean by that is, while a member of the Hollywood Blondes he utilized alot of different wrestling moves and holds. Suplexs, atomic drops, back body drops, headlocks. Him and Flyin Brian really mixed it up. Especially with their double team moves. Do you disagree? While the Ringmaster. He utilized the cobra clutch/million dollar dream as his finisher and he also used alot of the same moves as his previous persona did. Do you disagree? When he first became Steve Austin, he utilized alot of the same moves. His match with Bret Hart at WM 13, we both agree that it was a classic. If you think he was repetitive watch it again. You'll see suplexes, the elbow from the middle rope, he even employs a surf board submission at one point in the match. Watch his first two WM matches with The Rock. He employs the Sharp Shooter, a alot of the a for mentioned moves. So I don't think that he is or was as repetitive as John Cena!

What does that have to do with Steve Austin being a good wrestler though? Austin was still a good wrestler when he only had 3 or 4 moves.

The point is that moves have nothing to do with being a good wrestler. Why do people not grasp this fact?

Cena has employed the same moveset since his ruthless aggression days on SD! What else has he done. All of our current wrestlers have changed their style at some point in their career. Has Cena? No not at all!

This is just plain ignorant. Cena's added several moves to his arsenal since his early days. To claim otherwise is plain silly.

Again, though, what does number of moves, or moveset, have to do with being a good wrestler?

It doesn't.

 

[PlatynumX420]

Here's a typical Steve Austin match, circa 1999. Punch, kick, stomp, Lou Thesz Press, more kicks, more punches, Stunner. And we've both already agreed he was a good wrestler.

while you guys are comparing here's my 2 cents:

Imo Austin had a limited moveset that his gimmick made up for(at least in the begining).Everyone can relate to wanting to kick their boss's ass or make their life hell.That continued with the beer drinking and flipping everyone off.that's Lowest Common Denominator that a fan could relate to. The difference between SCSA and Cena is: Austin was never fed 'monsters' .that generated no crowd response ,multiple ppvs in a row Only now is Cena starting to face an opponent who can generate crowd response and actually care about the match. WHen cena was facing umaga and khali month after month no one cared. Watching Mae Young strip would generate more crowd response than those 2.So who were people going to cheer for? Obviously Cena because i guess upper management figured he wasnt over enough(wasn't selling enough tshirts or something) and needed no heat generating monsters to squash in the hopes ppl would re-evaluate their view of cena.Austin never had problems selling shirts or those foam fingers.

In terms of crowd response i d compare Cena to The Rock. Granted there haven't been (not to my knowledge anyway) any 'die cena die' chants like there were die rocky die chants ,the crowd response was about the same for them both.However the difference between these 2 is : Rock oozed charisma,had catchy catchphrases,had awesome mic skills and a decent move set .Cena's charisma is so-so,no catchphrases(he says the same thing every promo),limited moveset.

because business is the driving force which determines the quality of Cena's run

So ,hypothetically speaking, in a year or 2 when theres a new wwe champion and busiiness spikes up,when we look back to cena's run and all revenue (not buyrates) generated and (after adjusting for inflation) see how it doesnt stand up to the current champ does that mean there is no quality in cena's current run?That business now isnt that great and thus by default neither is Cena's title run?

If a wrestler wasn't entertaining, then people wouldn't pay to see him in the long-term. Because people pay to see Cena, and have for years, he is entertaining

Can you prove to me that everyone is paying to see Cena? Most of the ppvs he's mainevented the last few months i personally was more interested in the undercard and would have had to pay the same to see it regardless of if Cena was on the card or not.

It's because they have a charisma and an ability to connect with the audience.

Cena ...charisma ? lol maybe only slightly more the G.W. Bush. how does cena connect with the audience when AT LEAST 1/4 of them are booing him / dont care.

The Wrestling Observer details which wrestlers gain viewers and lose viewers as the show goes on.

I couldn't imagine that to be a perfect science.during a match or segment you d never have a single person be involved. i.e. no one person match against theirself and most promo segments another person usually coms out and they go back and forth.

 

[Slyfox696]

So ,hypothetically speaking, in a year or 2 when theres a new wwe champion and busiiness spikes up,when we look back to cena's run and all revenue (not buyrates) generated and (after adjusting for inflation) see how it doesnt stand up to the current champ does that mean there is no quality in cena's current run?That business now isnt that great and thus by default neither is Cena's title run?

Would you say the same thing about Bret Hart's WWF run? Because it wasn't long after he left, that they shot up.

Would you say there was no quality in his run?

The problem with your scenario is that, assuming there is a boom, AND assuming that Cena is not smack dab in the middle of it, we don't know what causes it. In the case of Bret Hart, he was the biggest draw on the card at the time and was putting on good matches. But, Steve Austin came along and was simply a phenomenon. That doesn't make Bret a bad wrestler, just makes Austin a great draw. So, there's no telling what would happen.

What we DO know, is that Cena is the biggest draw and makes the WWE the most money, with only Triple H really being a possible contender for that. And that makes Cena one of the best in the company.

Can you prove to me that everyone is paying to see Cena?

I have given my evidence, numerous times. Ratings, buyrates, merchandise, revenue etc. Additionally, the main-event has almost ALWAYS been the biggest draw of any card, and Cena has been in the main-event for 2 and a half years.

Cena ...charisma ? lol maybe only slightly more the G.W. Bush. how does cena connect with the audience when AT LEAST 1/4 of them are booing him / dont care.

Cena still has an effect on an audience. There is no person in the entire company who receives a greater reaction that Cena. Even the Triple H return match against Booker at Summerslam, pales in comparison to the Orton vs. Cena match, both in terms of match quality, and in crowd interest and response. Cena matches almost ALWAYS garner the loudest response, whether fans like him or dislike him.

I couldn't imagine that to be a perfect science.during a match or segment you d never have a single person be involved. i.e. no one person match against theirself and most promo segments another person usually coms out and they go back and forth.

Yes, but they go by quarter hour ratings, and the number of people who tune in or out during that quarter hour segment. And, after 2 and a half years, you get a pretty good idea whos drawing on your quarter hours and who is not. A guy on another forum once kept up with the quarter hour drawing from like May to October of 2006, and Cena averaged the biggest positive addition to the show. Fast forward one year later, with all the injuries and no one really stepping up otherwise, I can't imagine it being any different.

 

[deeppenetrationx]

McMoron is allowing John Semen or John Queena to still be champion so newflash or rude awakening wake up call I dislike John Cena myself to the point that I found 2 lookalikes of john queena that I did my wrestling projects and I defeated him not one but 3 of them just to prove to mcmoron I am the disliker of them all!
But for all us Cena haters as Randy Orton put it I doubt McMoron will allow Randy Orton to have the title coz John Cena and Randy Orton have become good friends off camera. "For years, the two young stars have been groomed by WWE to be the future of the company. They enjoy working together and worked hard to elevate the quality of their matches over the past few months" from what wrestlezone said here which is disappointing coz Randy Orton disliked him in real life so McMoron is basically a conceited jerkass who thrives on suckering wrestling fans like ourselves to love to hate JOhn Queena when we are all fed up of him and it gets boring having him beat everyone but its up to us fans to advert and convert to TNA and ban WWE wrestling and boycott this wheelchair wrestling entertainment having the same old guy come back to WWE! John Cena should in fact be imprisoned and do time for steroid subscribing and we all know it folks that he did it also coz he was not that huge 4 years ago! Rey Mysterio also should be suspended but as I said earlier on some posts FAVORITISM as McMOron is favoring HHH and Bobby Lashley,John Queena and Rey Mysterio as well!
So fans lets start boycotting WWE wrestling sept 17 coz its the final chapter and I hope McMoron loses his empire he built on and serves a life sentence till the day he dies for distributing steroids to all athletes lets hope Congress doesn't get corrupted by McMorons money as he attempts to pay off the justice system as he did 19 years ago and teach the old man a lesson in life
Responsibility of Chris benoits death and all other wrestlers as well before him

 

[hoppydude]

As slyfox said that cena gets the biggest reaction from fans, there usually boos. So how does the leeding baby face in the company, who has a never back down never quit attitude get booed by usually half the crowd. Please tell me a reason why this is happening other than that people are sick of Cena. You always say that people are blinded by their hate for Cena while you are blinded by your love for Cena ( which makes alot more sence anway ).