How Racist and/or Sexist is Dagger Dias?
- Thread starter JGlass
- Start date
Dan Severn's Moustache
Patent Pending
While I don't necessarily agree with the point you're trying to make in this thread, Dagger isn't exactly helping his case. I think he's out of his depth in these kinds of discussions and he needs to read up on more information before he can make an informed rebuttal.
That, and he thought me and Ech being sardonic about something irrelevant was somehow an argument against him.
Also @Dagger Dias
Come on dude, nothing about what JGlass said was "anti-white propaganda".I respect the points you made in your defence, and I don't think you're a racist at all, but you can't just reverse the accusations like that. I am going to assume at this point that you are operating on Coco levels of irony.
Okay I probably shouldn't be doing this because I'm not batting for either side in this exact post, nor having a go at anyone. I'm simply just saying why I can see Daggers point in his racism claim back.
Not once did Dagger mention race, atleast from what I just quickly skimmed through to check (keep in mind I only was reading the appearance section and final decision thing), so for anyone to assume that because a person that isn't white is low on the list because of their race/skin colour would be/is contradicting. Dagger is basically saying why does one race have to be on top of the other when race wasn't even brought into it. Unless something was said in the other thread that wasn't in the original post, then the words "I prefer light skinned girls" were put in Daggers mouth. In the first 7 pages (or up until the Daggers ranking post was quoted) Dagger did not once say that and people were saying it like he did. He may have said it after I dunno I haven't checked that lost, but before that he was actually denying that race had anything to do with it.
I personally think that has more legs than assuming that a low ranking for the appearance is because of the actual race/skin colour whatever you wanna say.
I think inconsistent is the word people should be using instead of flat out calling racism if you don't agree, hard to tell other people what appearance they should like though.
This post is probably a little contradicting in itself as I said I am not batting for either side, but I'm just saying Daggers racism claim has the same amount of legs, if not more. I'm not calling JGlass a racist at all though, I actually love the way he treats this stuff as its definitely more passionate than most. So basically I am saying the racist thing can be dropped in summary of this post.
I hope I haven't just said this if Dagger actually said it previously before the quoted rankings or in thread, because then I probably wouldn't of replied in this way.
Anyways carry on.
I can appreciate you giving Dagger the benefit of the doubt here, and I'm not sure if I've said it yet in this thread, but I don't believe Dagger was being intentionally racist when he made this post or even came up with the rankings in his head before he made the post. However, when someone creates a set of data based on personal opinion that consistently skews in favor of white women over non-white women and presenting that data as proof that white women are more successful or fit for a job than non-white women (which Dagger, very likely unknowingly, did), then that's racist.
It's not racist to be attracted to white women over non-white women. It's not racist to say that you are attracted to white women over non-white women. It's only racist when you say that the fact that you are attracted to white women over non-white women means that the white women are more qualified for a job.
Da Prophet
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I used the phrase "stupid white people" to describe my neighbours today.
I'm coloured though so it's not racist.
I'm coloured though so it's not racist.
Damn you got my almost fully edited post, I didn't mean to say "it's hard to say who people should be attracted to".
I actually can't believe I put that.This will probably be my last post because I don't want to seem like I'm going against you and you getting annoyed at me. Dagger justified his reasons enough for me . He stated people like Asuka haven't made the main roster yet which is why she is ranked lower and Nia Jax isn't the best heel in NXT let alone the business and she has improving to do but he sees success in the future. Now this is were I think you can put inconsistent in there because Bailey has such a high ranking even though she is in NXT, though given his reason and from what I have seen, the ranking is justifiable.
I honestly see what you are saying though and I hope my possible ignorance hasn't put off possible future conversations about this racism topic between us.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
While I agree that casual sexism and racism are an issue that happens daily, surely here we're reaching the point of it doing more harm than good when we constantly point out things that just don't matter.
Seriously to Jglass, when starting this thread did you truly believe Dagger was sexist and racist? Or did you realise some of the things he said may be able to be construed that way, and go from there?
There comes a point where people do more harm than good with these things, in the same way people no longer pay real attention, or give credence to anything the feminists who argue 'men holding doors open for a woman is sexist' say. When they have a real point, something that actually affects most women, people are so sick of hearing them go on about non-issue and accusing everyone of sexism that the real point gets missed.
I'm all for getting rid of gender inequality. KB will tell you how often I go into rants about it from media outlets. But, while Dagger using his attractiveness scale for rating a women's talent is ridiculous for a whole host of reasons, it's too big of a leap to go from 'I find Emma more attractive than Sasha' to 'Dagger thinks white women are more qualified to do their jobs than black women'. I see where you got it from, but I don't think it's logical.
Seriously to Jglass, when starting this thread did you truly believe Dagger was sexist and racist? Or did you realise some of the things he said may be able to be construed that way, and go from there?
There comes a point where people do more harm than good with these things, in the same way people no longer pay real attention, or give credence to anything the feminists who argue 'men holding doors open for a woman is sexist' say. When they have a real point, something that actually affects most women, people are so sick of hearing them go on about non-issue and accusing everyone of sexism that the real point gets missed.
I'm all for getting rid of gender inequality. KB will tell you how often I go into rants about it from media outlets. But, while Dagger using his attractiveness scale for rating a women's talent is ridiculous for a whole host of reasons, it's too big of a leap to go from 'I find Emma more attractive than Sasha' to 'Dagger thinks white women are more qualified to do their jobs than black women'. I see where you got it from, but I don't think it's logical.
We're going in circles and I'm not JGlass but I believe that Dagger is racist and a sexist in as much as a sexist is someone who holds sexist views (ditto with racist and racist views). I actually thought the racist thing was somewhat dubious, despite the unfortunate circumstances of using an arbitrary category to penalise every non-white wrestler, but his later posts contain rhetoric typical of white supremacists. I'm obviously not saying Dagger belongs to a white supremacist group, just that I've seen him make arguments just now that would be more at home on Stormfront.
And yes, I still believe that this type of prejudice is pernicious, insidious and too readily accepted and thus deserving of this sort of attention.
And yes, I still believe that this type of prejudice is pernicious, insidious and too readily accepted and thus deserving of this sort of attention.
I don't see the problem with that post.
It kind of looked that way at first.
So? That happens to males all the time.
Did he do so because of the expressly written sentiment that them being non-white means they are lesser? Or are you being a racist right now?
Genuine question.
So he's treating them like the men?
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would appreciate it if you would quote this for me.
Umm, I know you're somewhat intelligent, but surely you're not naive enough to not see the humor in this statement, right? Keep in mind we're talking about television entertainment.
I'm starting to wonder if you'll ever get over losing to Dagger in a popularity contest.
Lee
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!
Full phrase "It's like the pot calling the kettle black". Sounds racist to me.
Nope, not put off. In fact, I admire your ability to debate and not come off as a self-righteous asshole. One day I hope to learn that skill.
I can't help but imagine that there were many people who said similar things when Rosa Parks wouldn't give up her seat to a white lady. I mean, that's the way the world worked back then, so she should have just moved her ass, right?
(Disclaimer: I am not comparing myself to Rosa Parks, I'm merely suggesting that the argument that, "This is the way the world works," is not a good argument.)
I don't see the problem with that post.
Where he suggests male wrestlers are chosen to represent female wrestlers? How is that not sexist? It assumes that they are unable to put on an entertaining match themselves, so men have to do it for them.
I think that's because you wanted it to. I know how much you love low hanging fruit.
So? That happens to males all the time.
A) Not nearly as much as it happens to women.
B) That doesn't make ranking people's appearances (men or women) okay.
Just to clarify before I attempt to unload this question, you are suggesting that if Dagger isn't being outwardly racist, then it means I'm racist for noticing a trend based on race in a statistic?
The answer to your questions are no and no. Dagger did not expressly write that being non-white makes them lesser, nor am I being racist. I noticed that Dagger gave lower appearance rankings to non-white women. I don't think he did it intentionally, nor do I think Dagger is a racist (or at least I didn't when I made this thread, but his insistence that I hate white women because I am defending non-white women is troubling). I do, however, think that he created a a system of ranking the women of WWE that was inherently racist as it skewed strongly in favor of white women and appearance was something taken into account.
You don't pull glibness off half as well as I do. Condescending and demeaning are more your colors.
Obviously Dagger never directly stated that, he'd be crazy to. It's when you actually take a second to analyze his ranking system and see that the statistics trend favorably towards white women and negatively towards black women.
Let's say I made a ranking system where I was ranking actresses and I used four categories: acting ability, role selection, awards, and appearance. Then lets say I give Scarlet Johansson a 6 on acting ability, 6 on role selection, 3 on awards, and 10 on appearance. Then I gave Kerry Washington a 6 on acting ability, a 7 on role selection, a 3 on awards, and a 5 on appearance. Then I put a disclaimer at the end that my appearance system was at least partly influenced by how attractive I find the women and stating that I find white women more attractive than black women.
That means, according to my system, Scarlet Johansson is a better actress than Kerry Washington, and this ranking was influenced by race.
That's racist. And sexist, because I don't believe appearance has anything to do with how well an actress should be received.
Umm, I know you're somewhat intelligent, but surely you're not naive enough to not see the humor in this statement, right? Keep in mind we're talking about television entertainment.
Not only am I not naive, but I studied Communications in college. I know how these things work. But that doesn't mean that they should work this way. I know it's sappy, but I do want to live in a world where appearance (beyond looking right for the role you are playing, and there's not a single woman currently in the WWE that looks wrong for the part) is not taken into consideration when it comes to how well a person is received.
Idealistic? Yeah, you bet. Unreasonable? I don't think so, not as long as we keep trying to move past thinking like the kind of thinking Dagger Dias displayed when he made these rankings.
The big disconnect people seem to have here is that it's possible to be racist or sexist without being cartoonish or outlandish about it. As Sam pointed out, casual sexism can be insidious and pernicious, and while it's certainly much more forgivable than the outlandish racism or sexism that you can certainly find on the internet, that doesn't make it acceptable.
Disclaimer: I'm not really interested in debating with you until the end of time, so it's very likely this will be my only response to you. If you choose to respond (which I'm sure you will), please refrain from using smilies. My delicate ego can't take it.
He kind of does though.
It's subtle. But when there's a serious judgement call to be made in another category, Dagger's sexual and racial preferences seem to be the tie-breaker.
Here's his appearance rankings:
Now here are his accomplishment rankings:
Now what I'm about to illustrate isn't a one-to-one conversion. But look at some people with allegedly the same "accomplishments."
Start with the bottom three who have no accomplishments worth noting. Alexa's a decent second who will be a good, consistent hand in the womens division very soon. Carmella is a glorified hanger-on to a couple hot acts (Enzo/Cass and Bayley, respectively). How is it that Nia Jax, a woman who was in a main event-level match at the NXT-equivalent of a PPV, is ranked below those two? That's a genuine accomplishment when measured against anything Bliss or Carmella have done. Yet he opts for the hot blonde, dinging Jax a few points because a) he'd rather fuck Alexa and b) he designed a monumentally stupid rating system (more on stupid rating systems in a moment).
A stretch? I'm sure it is for those of you who don't buy the premise of this thread to begin with. But Dagger working through difficult judgment calls by subconsciously thinking with his dick is far from a stretch.
More still -- Look at the list of people whose only accomplishment is being on the main roster. Well he can't argue around Becky getting the top spot because she was in arguably the MOTN at Mania this year and remains highly visible as possibly the best long-term prospect in the division. And Tamina gets a bump above her fuckability grade, I assume because of her prolonged service time on the main roster (trust me, years of reading his posts tell me Dagger's just dumb enough to care about things like that). But everyone else? Well Summer's been there a few years and she's the hottest, so she gets a higher rating than Lana (a great second) or Emma and Dana (part of an act much more useful than anything Summer's ever been a part of, and Emma's also been in a big TakeOver match). How can he justify ranking Summer higher? The only thing she's got over those others is that Dagger desperately wants to flog her with his disco stick.
Then the promos section was a laugh. Sure, Sasha got number one because she has a colourful gimmick. Notice a trend further down the list?
Once again, not a one-to-one copy of who he'd like to fuck. But you can see his racism on full display. I bet if Sasha wasn't all blinged out, he'd dismiss her as quickly as he dismisses the rest of the sisters in this category.
Summer also ranks as high as he can justify here, somehow ending up a spot above Lana, one of the better and more experienced female talkers in the company. The man knows how to let his dick influence a judgement call.
I don't think I need to go further.
Now I know that all sounds like complete bullshit to those of you who already dismiss the premise of this thread out of hand. And I don't believe Dagger is doing any of this intentionally. But when there's a judgement call, it comes down to how attracted he is to these females. And in the end, non-whites suffer a great deal for it.
Of course it's so subtle I imagine most of you think it can't possibly be happening.
Now let's talk about stupid rating systems. Specifically, let's talk about formal performance reviews. Many of these are poorly designed to begin with. And then you bring all the weird things raters tend to do into the equation (error of central tendency, higher reviews to people who are just like you, recency bias, etc). When you design a shitty review template with too much room for interpretation or the non-specific, these shitty quirks of the raters become exaggerated.
Now let's look at Dagger -- He has the weird quirk of wanting to RANK everyone. Even if people have allegedly the same accomplishments, he wants to assign each a different numerical rating. So Kimmy and Rachel are both equally good at their jobs. But Dagger has that weird thing where he doesn't want to give anyone the exact same score on something, even if that's what they deserve. Kimmy makes Dagger's private parts feel tingly. Rachel? Not so much.
Kimmy just got a better performance review than Rachel even though they both performed equally well over the last year. Of course dick-tingles would never influence Dagger's review of a male subordinate. Rachel has become a victim of Dagger's sexism.
Thank goodness Rachel isn't black. Or fat. Could have been way worse.
Now mocking Dagger isn't going to ensure that this sort of thing never happens. We're not going to make the world a significantly better place in this thread. But too many people believe that this isn't a real problem. It's worth discussing.
Earlier, Becca said this:
I don't believe we're pointing out something that doesn't matter. Yeah, Dagger's just some jerk-off shitposting on a wrestling forum. But there are people out there who think just like Dagger and are in positions of real power over others. And I know this all feels like inconsequential mental gymnastics, but it's not. People need to live in a world where they're told it's not okay to think like this. People need to be more aware of their subtle biases and how they can sometimes unintentionally manifest into bonafide discrimination.
Yeah, I'm obviously only paying this much attention to this thread because I'm a small, petty person who loves riding Dagger. We all know that. But that doesn't mean there isn't a real issue to discuss here.
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
Whether y'all make threads to talk about him positively or whether y'all make threads to hate on him, bottom line is, y'all make threads about Dagger. Even though a lot of you aren't too fond of him. Guess that means Dagger's a top WZF draw
Pink ribbon culture does big business. Guess that means cancer's a top draw.Whether y'all make threads to talk about him positively or whether y'all make threads to hate on him, bottom line is, y'all make threads about Dagger. Even though a lot of you aren't too fond of him. Guess that means Dagger's a top WZF draw
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
But I still don't get how Lana was given a 5/10 though.
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
Nah 2 different things bro. Apples and tomatoes.
BaconBits
WZ Czar of Steaks
Im not going to get pulled into your bullshit. Comparing a harmless post on wrestling to the actual civil rights struggle is regoddamndiculous and proves my point about going out of your way to be offended about something. That makes all of your posts even more trivial than they already are.
Dagger isn't giving her a 5/10 in terms of appearance. Each rating corresponds to how he ranks their appearance relative to the other female performers (except Summer, who's actually a 10).
Like I said, monumentally stupid system.
Whatever you need to do to convince yourself that you're in the right and there's no need to expand your world view, brother.
BaconBits is an apathetic, done old man who's had more than his fill of the world. Let him die in peace.
Sure, I guess. Pink ribbon culture is massively successful and does a fine job of duping the public at large. But Dagger isn't fooling anyone.
BaconBits
WZ Czar of Steaks
My worldview isn't going to be affected by a post on a wrestling forum. This forum is supposed to be release from the harsh realities of the world. It's clear your passionate about race issues and that's ok. I'm not going to pretend that racial issues aren't a problem, because they clearly still are. I'm not going to pretend to know how to fix them either, because in reality, there's never going to be true racial harmony.
But getting upset about a post on a forum isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in how the world works. If you really want to get involved in attempting to right the injustices of the world, engage in some real activism, not a social justice tirade on a forum that has maybe 200 regular posters.
