ECW Toronto, Round 3, Match 1: #3 Edge vs. #14 Raven

[Coco]

Austin, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Dean, Liger, and Bam Bam didn't need ECW at all, IMO. They would have made it other places just fine. Raven was just the best of the leftovers. Oh, he beat Tommy Dreamer a lot? Big deal.

To me Raven is nothing more than indy trash. One of the misfits who needed ECW himself because he couldn't be trusted to make it in the big leagues without that company to help him out. Edge is overrated, but I have no doubt that he could handle Raven with ease. Even in ECW, Edge wouldn't be totally out of his element. We are talking about a smark darling coming to play in front of a smark crowd in his hometown. This homefield advantage crap for Raven shouldn't fly at all. Edge is also the man that gave the ECW fans RVD's title win, so them getting on his side is not impossible. Add Edge's occasional hardcore experience to what I'm assuming is a split-crowd, Edge in his prime (with much bigger wins and reigns than Raven has ever had) takes this for me.

 

[simpsons_fanatic742]

When I first looked at the matchup I didn't think it would be close and I thought Edge would take it, but after reading all of the posts in here I became much less sure. So after careful thinking, I'm still voting for Edge. I just think that Edge would go over Raven here. His resume is much better than Raven's, even if people say he is transitional or paper champion. Edge can compete in this kind of environment and could win over Raven.

 

[2012isbs]

I can understand voting for Edge he's great but calling Raven trash no, he's a legend and harcore icon. He is a decent wreslter and the best wrestler of the ECW originals. So vote Edge if you must but Raven is not trash. For more information on why isn't trash click the link: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=1044003#post1044003

 

[Big Sexy]

I still don't understand how Raven has gotten so many votes. Let's look at his career from start to finish. Started with a stint in the WWE as a manger. I don't think he ever fought in one match.

He then goes to ECW wins a couple tag matches against the Pit Bulls and then he becomes a singles competitor. Yes I know Raven is a 2 time ECW champion, but do you know who he beat in ECW. Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, Terry Gordy, and Steve Williams. That's it. Two out of shape, out of their prime wrestlers, and two guys who have done absolutely shit in their careers.

Raven then goes to WCW. He beats up on jobbers for a while then gets what might be the best win of his career. He beats DDP for the US title with the help of all of Ravens Flock. He then proceeds to lose the belt the next night to Goldberg and after that he had a few low card feuds and was gone.

He finds his way back to ECW wins a couple tag matches with Tommy Dreamer and again he's gone from there.

Then he gets back to the WWE where he becomes a 27 time hardcore champion. It sounds impressive but in actuality it probably means less then a reign as womens champion. You know who else had over 20 reigns as hardcore champion? Crash Holly and Stevie Richards. That's great company to be in.

Raven then goes to TNA and this is probably the most successful he's ever been. He even had a reign as world champion in TNA. Of course he won the title in a king of the mountain match against the likes of Abyss who is shit, Monty Brown who at that time was shit, and Sean Waltman who was probably on so many drugs he didn't even know where he was.

That is Raven's career. This is the guy that over 50 people have voted for to beat Edge who is one of the best superstars in the WWE. I don't care how much punishment Raven can take. He has never beaten anybody as good as Edge in his entire career. If this was Taz, RVD, or Bam Bam Bigalow then I could see people voting them over Edge because it's ECW. But this is Raven. The man whose claim to fame is having a lot of hardcore victories over Tommy fucking Dreamer and the fucking Sandman. It should take a lot more then that to get a victory over a guy like Edge.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

You mean guys like Terry Gordy, Dr. Death Steve Williams, Terry Funk, Steve Austin, Rey Mysterio, The Dudleys, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Jushin "thunder" Liger, Dean Malenko, Bam Bam Bigelow, Lance Storm, and RVD, yeah sounds like a bunch of guys who really did nothing with their careers to me

Justin, your ignorance astounds me. You continue to ramble on with all this information about some of the biggest names in E.C.W history, but what you neglect to inform everyone.. is with exception from Terry Gordy (has-been at the time) and Steve Williams (who fought moments before losing to him) Raven hasn't truly BEATEN any of those top names.. has he?

When has Raven defeated Steve Austin? When has Raven defeated Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero or Rey Mysterio??

When has he defeated Bam Bam Bigelow, Dean Malenko, Jushin Liger, Lance Storm or Rob Van Dam?!?!?!?!

When has he defeated the Dudleyz? (minus his run-in during 1999 - when the Dudleyz were on their way out, and he was returning)

Let me tell you when.. never, that's when. Raven's career in E.C.W was made off doing some of the most controversial storylines, but never because he's defeated every bit of the top names that's come through the Company.

So the next time you wanna promote Raven as being this "all powerful" great Super-Legend who's passed through E.C.W, you might wanna bring along truthful information and proof of when he's actually defeated any of those other top Legends. (you know, the ones that weren't beyond their prime and out of shape.)

He's a 27 time Hardcore champion, which is the same amount of titles that Edge has won in WWE

You're fucking kidding me, right?? So you're matching 27 meaningless Hardcore (the 24/7 Championship) victories.. over guys like Crash Holly, Godfather Ho's, and Referee's.. to 9 WORLD Heavyweight Championships, 12 Tag Team Championships, 5 Intercontinental Championships, a run as United States Champion, former Money in the Bank and a former King of the Ring winner.. with all those victories coming over guys like.. The Hardys, Dudleyz, Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Randy Orton, Kurt Angle, and other top notch Main Eventers!?

Seriously.. I've never seen anyone else run an entire Company's list of Championships and accomplishments down because one guy won 27 fucking Hardcore 24/7 Championships. What's next, Justin, I guess Raven is better than Triple fucking H since he's won more titles than him, huh?

Just because you think it was a joke doesn't mean it was still a recognized title in WWE, and one Raven won 27 times and Edge won 0 times

Yes, Justin, it was a recognized Championship.. so much so, that it's still around to this.. wait, wait.. no, no it doesn't seem to be. Well huh, wonder what happened to such an illustrious title w/ a long, rich and amazing history of title holders.

And gosh darn, Edge is sure kicking himself for thinking of the future of his Career, earning multiple Tag Team Championships and Intercontinental Championships during that time.. instead of marking his spot in the comedy act that was the Hardcore division that Raven thrived in.

It's still goes down in the history books as a Heavyweight title for the second biggest promotion in wrestling today

And yet Edge is currently the Heavyweight Champion in the Industry's BIGGEST promotion.

Where's Raven, again? Rehab? The local bar? What? I seem to have forgotten. Maybe he's still feuding with Zbyszko, this time over health supplements.

and Raven has won 37 titles in his career, and that's only counting his time in WWE, WCW, ECW, & TNA

So, 27 Hardcore reigns and 10 extra that should truly count toward something? Let's actually recap this for the people you're trying to cloud.

2- E.C.W Heavyweight Championships.
4- E.C.W Tag Team Championships. (1-Stevie Richards, 2-Tommy Dreamer, 1-Mike Awesome)

1-N.W.A-T.N.A Championship. (2005 King of the Mountain match)

1-W.C.W United States Championship.
1-W.C.W Light Heavyweight Championship. (that isn't even remembered by hardly anyone, anymore)
1-W.C.W Tag Team Championship. (w/ Perry Saturn)

So, just to clarify.. 3 actual "World" Heavyweight reigns, a handful of Tag reigns, and a one-night forgettable U.S reign.. mixed with a forgotten "cruiserweight" reign, and a shitload of clusterfuck reigns as a "hardcore" Champion.

Wow, yeah.. that's a nice list to be proud of.. compared to, you know.. NINE fucking World Championship reigns in the #1 top Promotion.. in the WORLD!

How is being the biggest fluke champion in the history of WWE a GOOD accomplishment

Winning something Nine times, kinda defeats the purpose of claiming it was a fluke. A fluke usually means you can't do it again.. not you can do it repeatedly, almost the exact same way and still make (most) people love every minute of watching you do it.

Kayfabe wise Raven bleeds Edge dry, Raven wins

Kayfabe wise, Raven's carrying Edge's bags to his lockerroom, hoping Edge will give him a bone and let him replace Funaki during those squash matches that still happen from time to time on Smackdown.

Sorry. You know it's true.

 

[RealDealOdin]

what happen how could raven lose this match

 

[NSL]

Will, you can bash all of Raven's reign as hardcore champions, but I'd compare them to Edge's 9 reigns as champ. I don't feel like looking it up, but they probably equal the same amount of time. It's a damn shame that Edge won this, and I hope he gets beat soon to correct this...

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Will, you can bash all of Raven's reign as hardcore champions, but I'd compare them to Edge's 9 reigns as champ. I don't feel like looking it up, but they probably equal the same amount of time. It's a damn shame that Edge won this, and I hope he gets beat soon to correct this...

Another whiny loser, who can't handle the truth. Sorry that your guy lost (again) but the truth hurts I guess.

And if you even bother to compare Raven's 27 Hardcore reigns to Edge's 9 World title reigns, you're a very pathetic wrestling fan and an even worse, showman.

To win a World Heavyweight Championship - be it for 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month or 1 year. Is an amazing feat and something not very many can claim. Some of the all-time mat greats can't even claim to be a 1-time World Heavyweight Champion.. yet Edge managed to win it NINE TIMES.

I've said it once, I'll say it again.. Raven's 27 victories came over the likes of Crash Holly, Ho's and Referee's. Whereas Edge's 9 victories came over the likes of the Undertaker, John Cena, and Triple H.

Uhm, yeah.. they're completely comparable. What the fuck ever.

As for the length in time.. once again, Edge lost his title to the same set of guys. Guys like John Cena, the Undertaker and Triple H.. whereas Raven lost to an equally set of.. Crash Holly, Hardcore Holly, Al Snow, K-Kwik, Steve Blackman & Billy Gunn.

If Raven is such a great Hardcore wrestler, why'd he have such a hard time defending against losers? AND LOSING?!

 

[NSL]

If Raven is such a great Hardcore wrestler, why'd he have such a hard time defending against losers? AND LOSING?!

Because the same shitty company that was booking Edge's 9 reigns, was booking Raven's 27 hardcore reigns.

In ECW, Raven was a god. He would never lose to someone like Edge. Edge has never been a legit champ to me. Like HBK, he's nothing more than a glorified transitional champ. I'd say Punk's 1 reign was more impressive than Edge's last 3.

Edge has been a 9 time champ for the same company that thinks Santina is a good idea.

EDIT: Will, I wasn't trying to make the 27 reigns seem credible, I was proving that Edge's 9 reigns are worthless.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Because the same shitty company that was booking Edge's 9 reigns, was booking Raven's 27 hardcore reigns.

In ECW, Raven was a god. He would never lose to someone like Edge. Edge has never been a legit champ to me. Like HBK, he's nothing more than a glorified transitional champ. I'd say Punk's 1 reign was more impressive than Edge's last 3.

Edge has been a 9 time champ for the same company that thinks Santina is a good idea.

1. That same "shitty" company is the largest, most successful in the world.

2. How was Punk's reign more impressive? He pinned a guy that Batista destroyed for him, then proceeded to only retain his title by beating the likes of JBL and by interference from Kane.

3. Who are you to say what is a good idea in the world of wrestling and what isn't? WWE is where it is because of Vince McMahon and his decisions, not yours. If he thinks that Edge is deserving of the world title 9-times, he's probably right.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Because the same shitty company that was booking Edge's 9 reigns, was booking Raven's 27 hardcore reigns.

Well, maybe that's because the same Company that saw talent and overall great market-ability to push Edge to the moon.. didn't see anything more than someone who might make their joke of a Hardcore division half-way decent in Raven.

In ECW, Raven was a god.

If he was such a God there, why'd he ever leave? Oh, and of course if he was this great almighty being.. why couldn't he save the Company from going under? Better yet, why'd he continue to jump ship?

Your "God" lost to has-beens like Terry Funk, and never held the E.C.W title more than Twice. If he was so great, why didn't he ever hold, or break any records for E.C.W?

If I didn't know any better.. I'd say he defeated a couple moderately known names.. cut some amazing promos, and made people like you drool over nothing in ripped shorts and torn shirts.

He would never lose to someone like Edge.

Maybe that's because someone like Edge had too much talent and just by-passed E.C.W to begin with.. but, you know.. we could go with your logic of "He could NEVER beat him, because he wasn't h@rdc0re".

Cause, you know, it takes rocket science to know how to swing a chair, set up a table, or stab someone with a fork.

Edge has never been a legit champ to me. Like HBK, he's nothing more than a glorified transitional champ.

Edge has been the best character the Company's ever seen. He isn't a transitional Champion by way of not deserving it.. he's merely owning up to everything great about his character and gimmick. Thus is the "Ultimate Opportunist".

He wins the Championships when he gets the greatest openings. He drops the title in return, only to win it back again when the best opening presents itself.

Raven can't even take the greatest of advantages to win matches. With him, it's just hit or miss.

I'd say Punk's 1 reign was more impressive than Edge's last 3.

I'd also say you were some words that'd end up getting me banned, but I'll refrain for now. Fact is, if you believe this then it just shows how jealous you are of the Rated R Superstar - Ultimate Opportunist, Edge.

Edge has been a 9 time champ for the same company that thinks Santina is a good idea.

And Raven was a Champion for a Company that no longer exists. Apparently the Company Edge is a Champion for, makes right decisions.

 

[NSL]

1. That same "shitty" company is the largest, most successful in the world.

That ECW rating is really driving that home, isn't it? They're destroying their own viewership with every show, and I don't need to watch to know that. Their purpose with this year's draft, was to improve RAW, and everyone has jumped ship to Smackdown, and Vince is too naiive to follow what the viewers want.

2. How was Punk's reign more impressive? He pinned a guy that Batista destroyed for him, then proceeded to only retain his title by beating the likes of JBL and by interference from Kane.

Edge cheated his way into the Chamber. Edge came into a triple threat match after HHH and Kozlov were beating on each other for 20 minutes, and has his own reign that started with pinning someone that was flat on the mat. Edge's reigns are all the same as Punk's.

3. Who are you to say what is a good idea in the world of wrestling and what isn't? WWE is where it is because of Vince McMahon and his decisions, not yours. If he thinks that Edge is deserving of the world title 9-times, he's probably right.

Edge may be deserving of 9 reigns, but better reigns than what he's had. I said back in December that I was getting sick of it, and it's only gotten worse. Edge is becoming a bigger joke than the Divas division.

 

[justinsayne]

1. That same "shitty" company is the largest, most successful in the world.

A shitty company who's ratings are dropping like flies, and is still living off superstars well past their primes

2. How was Punk's reign more impressive? He pinned a guy that Batista destroyed for him, then proceeded to only retain his title by beating the likes of JBL and by interference from Kane.

IDK, maybe because it lasted longer than anyone of Edge's past three

3. Who are you to say what is a good idea in the world of wrestling and what isn't?

A Fan, you know the guy paying to watch the shit

WWE is where it is because of Vince McMahon and his decisions, not yours.

Just because he's made good decsion 10, 15, 25 yrs. ago, doesn't mean th decisions he's making today are good

If he thinks that Edge is deserving of the world title 9-times, he's probably right.

Yes and K-fed was deserving of beating John Cena too

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

That ECW rating is really driving that home, isn't it? They're destroying their own viewership with every show, and I don't need to watch to know that. Their purpose with this year's draft, was to improve RAW, and everyone has jumped ship to Smackdown, and Vince is too naiive to follow what the viewers want.

Why does he care what viewers want? He books for an audience of one. Himself. Oh and guess what, he STILL makes billions of dollars.

What has the E.C.W. rating have to do with anything? His crappiest show still out-draws T.N.A. Also, how did old ECW draw? Oh, that's right. They went bankrupt right when they finally got one T.V.

Edge cheated his way into the Chamber. Edge came into a triple threat match after HHH and Kozlov were beating on each other for 20 minutes, and has his own reign that started with pinning someone that was flat on the mat. Edge's reigns are all the same as Punk's.

Edge had already competed in a chamber match earlier in the night, thus making him the most fatigued. It was quite impressive for him to be able to enter a second match and win it. I'll give you the Kozlov vs Trips one. And for his most recent win, he beat John Cena in a last man standing match. Even if his reigns were like Punk's, he has a reason for them. It's kind of his gimmick.

Edge may be deserving of 9 reigns, but better reigns than what he's had. I said back in December that I was getting sick of it, and it's only gotten worse. Edge is becoming a bigger joke than the Divas division.

That is the silliest thing you've ever said.

 

[NSL]

Well, maybe that's because the same Company that saw talent and overall great market-ability to push Edge to the moon.. didn't see anything more than someone who might make their joke of a Hardcore division half-way decent in Raven.

Pushing Edge to the moon has made him a joke. Give him one legit reign, and maybe he'll be watchable.

If he was such a God there, why'd he ever leave?

Money. Same reason people leave their jobs all the time. It's no secret Paul was cheap.

Oh, and of course if he was this great almighty being.. why couldn't he save the Company from going under?

He couldn't save the company, because Vince and Eric were too busy stealing away the top stars, top ideas, and just about everything else ECW was doing.

Better yet, why'd he continue to jump ship?

Money.

Your "God" lost to has-beens like Terry Funk, and never held the E.C.W title more than Twice. If he was so great, why didn't he ever hold, or break any records for E.C.W?

His impact in ECW doesn't stop at title reigns. Look at everything else he was involved in. He crucified Sandman, he brainwashed his kids, he was handcuffed to a cage, he did scaffold matches, he booked matches, he booked angles...I could go on...And, he beat Terry Funk while he was still relevant. And, part of your argument was Edge beating Funk. The Funk that he beat was way more washed up than the one Raven fought.

If I didn't know any better.. I'd say he defeated a couple moderately known names.. cut some amazing promos, and made people like you drool over nothing in ripped shorts and torn shirts.

In the majority of the wrestling world, yes. But, in ECW, the guys he was competing against were huge, and icons of the hardcore scene at the time.

Maybe that's because someone like Edge had too much talent and just by-passed E.C.W to begin with.. but, you know.. we could go with your logic of "He could NEVER beat him, because he wasn't h@rdc0re".

I said he could. Out of 10 matches, he'd win 3 or 4. But, Raven would win most.

Cause, you know, it takes rocket science to know how to swing a chair, set up a table, or stab someone with a fork.

Why does everyone go back to that? As I told Becca, hardcore wrestling isn't all about weapons. It's about the style, and the attitude. It's about innovation. Everything Edge has done in gimmick matches, has been made possible because of stuff that happened in ECW.

Edge has been the best character the Company's ever seen. He isn't a transitional Champion by way of not deserving it.. he's merely owning up to everything great about his character and gimmick. Thus is the "Ultimate Opportunist".

The only great thing about his gimmick, is that he's not prancing around in drag, or boning someone prancing around in drag. OK, 1 out of 2 ain't so bad.

He wins the Championships when he gets the greatest openings. He drops the title in return, only to win it back again when the best opening presents itself.

So, you're admitting he's not a legit champ?

Raven can't even take the greatest of advantages to win matches. With him, it's just hit or miss.

He had the flock to help him take his chances. And, I think I stated that he'd have Meanie, Nova, and the Musketeer at ringside.

I'd also say you were some words that'd end up getting me banned, but I'll refrain for now. Fact is, if you believe this then it just shows how jealous you are of the Rated R Superstar - Ultimate Opportunist, Edge.

Thank god for MSN

And Raven was a Champion for a Company that no longer exists. Apparently the Company Edge is a Champion for, makes right decisions.

I've made a thread on this. I know it. ECW couldn't survive, because Vince and Eric were too busy stealing their ideas, and their stars.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

A shitty company who's ratings are dropping like flies, and is still living off superstars well past their primes

They are returning to normal. They always go down post-Wrestlemania.

IDK, maybe because it lasted longer than anyone of Edge's past three

Punk's reign lasted 67 days. If you're counting his current one, then yes, Punk's was longer than his last three. But Edge's number is growing daily. If you're counting reigns 6, 7, and 8, then they lasted a combined 95 days. That's more than Punk's.

A Fan, you know the guy paying to watch the shit

I prefer the guy that owns the company and knows what he's doing.

Just because he's made good decsion 10, 15, 25 yrs. ago, doesn't mean th decisions he's making today are good

I disagree.