Echelon must be jealous...

[Bernkastel]

Because she's better than all 3 of them combined. I haven't seen any of them get remotely like the reaction Mickie was getting in her feud with Trish, the "Mickie's psycho" chants in the feud were as loud as the heat that Edge was getting at the time and thats saying something.

Jillian gets more heel heat now than Mickie averaged after her feud with Stratus. The main reason why Mickie got the reactions that she did while feuding with Trish was because of Trish, when Trish was taken out of the equation, Mickie's heel heat dropped dramatically.

 

[Capt. Charisma]

Jillian gets more heel heat now than Mickie averaged after her feud with Stratus. The main reason why Mickie got the reactions that she did while feuding with Trish was because of Trish, when Trish was taken out of the equation, Mickie's heel heat dropped dramatically.

I disagree the reason she was getting heat was because she played a decent heel, and the storyline was half decent, especially for a womens feud. Mickie's heel heat dropped because she got turned face, and then had another good match with Lita, and was still getting good reactions. If WWE had pushed a Mickie/Beth feud seriously from the RR to Mania with a decent storyline, they could have had a good match. Instead we are stuck with a crappy tag match, with barely any background to it, nice one WWE.

 

[Bernkastel]

I disagree the reason she was getting heat was because she played a decent heel, and the storyline was half decent, especially for a womens feud. Mickie's heel heat dropped because she got turned face, and then had another good match with Lita, and was still getting good reactions. If WWE had pushed a Mickie/Beth feud seriously from the RR to Mania with a decent storyline, they could have had a good match. Instead we are stuck with a crappy tag match, with barely any background to it, nice one WWE.

She played a decent heel because she had Trish Stratus to fuel the feud. Like the crowd is really going to care about some new superstar that they've never heard of, trying to impress them with some sort of stalker angle? Do you think the crowd would have been as impressed with the angle if it had been Lita, Ashley, or Torrie playing the face in that storyline instead of Trish? The reason why the angle did as well as it did was because Trish brought instant credibility to the angle. If it had been anyone other than Trish playing the face in that angle, the storyline would have tanked.

Mickie didn't get even a fraction of the same reaction working with Lita that she got working with Trish in the stalker angle, because Lita wasn't a fraction of the same worker that Trish was.

If the WWE had pushed Mickie/ Beth before Beth's injury odds are that angle would have been great, not as good as the Trish/ Mickie angle, but easily just as good as the Lita/ Mickie angle.

 

[Bernkastel]

And people wonder why wrestling isn't as good as it used to be. The answer is obvious. Because fans don't allow themselves to be drawn into the show anymore. Instead, in order to prove how "smart" they are, they'll cheer or boo someone because of some, usually inaccurate, criteria that they feel makes a good wrestler. Thus, when that happens, you cannot have good face/heel dispositions, which makes it impossible to care about a character. And, if you don't care about a character, it's impossible to care about a feud between characters. And, if you don't care about feuds between characters, then there really is no incentive to watch wrestling.
That makes no sense. Why would you love the heel? Isn't that counter productive to the show?

which is why I really don't watch the WWE womens division anymore

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

*shrugs* Sorry Slyfox, I just don't watch WWE to follow thier rules of who I am and am not supposed to cheer for. Its their job to entertain me, and they do. How, isn't really important to me.

I'll always love Triple H. And I don't care who bashes him on the internet or how many people say he is nothing without screwing Steph.

I'll always love Cactus Jack, no matter how many books Foley comes back to plug.

I'll always love Flair, no matter how many times he jobs.

Some people you just like. Could Echelon send me link after link after link of people just as talented or with the body type that Beth Phoenix has? I'd put money on it. But they are not in WWE. There's only one. And after putting up with 10 years of worthless Stacy Kieblers and Candice Michelles, you're damned right I'll cheer for Beth every single time, regardless of what alignment she is that week. She could take a 10 year old out of the front row and nail him with that Fisherman's Suplex and I'd love it just the same.

 

[PhoenixFan89]

I feel the same way evansnowwolf does about beth, oh and people need to stop underestimating beths skills i feel she is truly undderrated cuz of shitty booking, and some women who dont even have half her skill in the wwe are highly overpraised when they learn how to do "one" flippin move.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Candice Michelle?

 

[PhoenixFan89]

Candice Michelle?

She's one of those girls.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Candice Michelle?

I'll give this to Candice Michelle. She is exactly what the WWE creative team wanted. A Trish Stratus knockoff that can be the heir to what she left behind by pretending to be some kind of skilled and dominant force in the women's division (wether she really is or not) that oozes sex appeal. In short, she is the ultimate FAKER, wether its sex appeal, in ring ability, or alignment. Granted, faking is a huge part of professional wrestling in everything they do. So I won't knock her for being fake. Instead, I'll knock her for being like every other women's wrestler that is more appearance than anything else. She does what they want her to do, and she is who they want her to be.

To me? She's that chick in the white shirt that did Super Bowl commercials. And she always will be. When your entrance music starts with "Let me show you how to use your body", and goes into a techno beat that implies you should pelvic thrust to it, you officially belong on Cinemax and not the USA network.

Until the day we get 10 or so of the women Echelon has on internet speed dial, the WWE will always have a Candice Michelle. ALWAYS.

As for me, I will GLEEFULLY cheer for the women that can actually do a grapple. REMEMBER GRAPPLES!? A press slam from Beth is worth eleventy billion Trish Stratus inspired forearm shots to the face.

 

[PhoenixFan89]

I'll give this to Candice Michelle. She is exactly what the WWE creative team wanted. A Trish Stratus knockoff that can be the heir to what she left behind by pretending to be some kind of skilled and dominant force in the women's division (wether she really is or not) that oozes sex appeal. In short, she is the ultimate FAKER, wether its sex appeal, in ring ability, or alignment. Granted, faking is a huge part of professional wrestling in everything they do. So I won't knock her for being fake. Instead, I'll knock her for being like every other women's wrestler that is more appearance than anything else. She does what they want her to do, and she is who they want her to be.

To me? She's that chick in the white shirt that did Super Bowl commercials. And she always will be. When your entrance music starts with "Let me show you how to use your body", and goes into a techno beat that implies you should pelvic thrust to it, you officially belong on Cinemax and not the USA network.

Until the day we get 10 or so of the women Echelon has on internet speed dial, the WWE will always have a Candice Michelle. ALWAYS.

As for me, I will GLEEFULLY cheer for the women that can actually do a grapple. REMEMBER GRAPPLES!? A press slam from Beth is worth eleventy billion Trish Stratus inspired forearm shots to the face.

Agreed...well put...nuff said.

 

[Bernkastel]

As for me, I will GLEEFULLY cheer for the women that can actually do a grapple. REMEMBER GRAPPLES!? A press slam from Beth is worth eleventy billion Trish Stratus inspired forearm shots to the face.

Pttf...Beth needs to learn how to use match psychology properly, Its one thing to have 500 people cheering you as opposed to 15,000

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Pttf...Beth needs to learn how to use match psychology properly, Its one thing to have 500 people cheering you as opposed to 15,000

Stacy Kielber had the most believable sell ever of the RKO. Doesn't mean I want her as a champion. Or even in the ring at all for that matter. Most people don't cheer based on psychology anyway. That flashy motion Candice does at the end of her entrance tends to get as larger pop than anything done once the bell actually rings.

 

[PhoenixFan89]

wtf is with this match psychology bullcrap? beth is an excellent wrestler who knows what the fuck she is doing in the ring does wwe know how to use her properly?? no, so in that case wwe is the one to blame for wanting beth to go out there destroy the girls and leave, they dont see the whole package they see a powerhouse and it also doesnt help that she doesnt have any backing from the booking and creative team (whereas people like ashley do, i wonder why??) and wwe nowadays is not based on wrestlers who know how to work a match properly their based on spots and flashy moves.

 

[Bernkastel]

Stacy Kielber had the most believable sell ever of the RKO. Doesn't mean I want her as a champion. Or even in the ring at all for that matter.

That has nothing to do with ring psychology, that's just selling one move, in one spot

Most people don't cheer based on psychology anyway.

Um...... yeah they do. If they didn't John Cena, Undertaker, and HBK would not be main eventers today. If most people didn't cheer based on psychology, Stone Cold, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, or Trish Stratus wouldn't have been anywhere near as big as they are today.

Guys like Dean Malenko, Billy Kidman, Shelton Benjamin, and Jamie Noble would be the gods of WWE

That flashy motion Candice does at the end of her entrance tends to get as larger pop than anything done once the bell actually rings.

Maybe, but that has nothing to do with in ring psychology and why Beth needs to learn it.

 

[Bernkastel]

wtf is with this match psychology bullcrap? beth is an excellent wrestler who knows what the fuck she is doing in the ring

yeah, she's an excellent wrestler.... that can't work a decent match

does wwe know how to use her properly?? no, so in that case wwe is the one to blame for wanting beth to go out there destroy the girls and leave,

Really? WWE is scripted but they don't plan out each match move for move. Beth has the opportunity each and every match to tell a unique story, but instead she does practially each match the same way, with sheer and pointless domination, Chyna style, usually with an incredibly boring outcome.

WWE may want Beth to put more emphasis on the domination aspect of the match, but most Beth matches are just plain squashes, they don't tell any kind of story and fans tend to lose interest in them quickly, especially when they've seen the same match done the same way for the umpteen time. You don't blame the WWE for something like that, you blame the wrestlers.

they dont see the whole package they see a powerhouse and it also doesnt help that she doesnt have any backing from the booking and creative team

Beth doesn't have any backing because she can't work a match, the only thing Beth has going for her right now is the fact that she's a powerhouse, if you take that away, you leave her with nothing. Forget her in ring skills, they don't matter, if wrestling skills mattered in the WWE womens division, then Jillian Hall would be a multiple time champion by now, Victoria would still be in the main event, and Katie Lea sure as hell wouldn't be doing what she currently is doing.

and wwe nowadays is not based on wrestlers who know how to work a match properly their based on spots and flashy moves.

yes it is, all of WWE revolves around the ability to work a match, get a reaction, and utilize proper in ring psychology. Even the womens division. Except in the Womens division wrestling skills have to take a back seat not only to working a match, but to looks as well, so the women that aren't considered the prettiest of divas (IE Jillian, Victoria, Michelle, Beth, Mickie) have to make up that deficit by learning how to work a proper match.

If Beth were to become the true "total package" as you say she is while in WWE, she'll have to learn how to properly work a match and entertain a crowd. otherwise, there may be a very limited number of title reigns left in Beth's WWE career.

 

[PhoenixFan89]

ok echelon i dont get you, sometimes you come off as a beth "fan" then you come off as a beth "hater" so i really dont get you, and how do you know beth cant work a match?? by what you see in the wwe?? cuz thats really what people judge beth on...her wwe matches, i for one know that beth can work a match if given enough time and a good opponent but im done with it people are gonna say crap about a certain wrestler all the time.

 

[Bernkastel]

ok echelon i dont get you, sometimes you come off as a beth "fan" then you come off as a beth "hater" so i really dont get you, and how do you know beth cant work a match?? by what you see in the wwe?? cuz thats really what people judge beth on...her wwe matches, i for one know that beth can work a match if given enough time and a good opponent but im done with it people are gonna say crap about a certain wrestler all the time.

I am a Beth fan, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to notice her flaws. Beth is a good wrestler, very good, but the WWE could give a shit less about how good a wrestler you are and and instead they care how well you can interact with the crowd.

How do I know that Beth can't work a match? Just look at her title reign, all the matches have pretty much been squashes, thats not WWE's fault. WWE books the matches, but they don't tell the superstars how to work each match. Beth chooses to put very little effort into her matches, I can justify a squash match against Maria or Candice or Ashley, but against Melina? or Mickie? (who have both had semi decent matches in the past) It just seems too convenient of an excuse to "blame WWE creative, or WWE booking" when Beth's matches, no matter whom she faces, have all basically followed the same boring squash pattern.

 

[PhoenixFan89]

Oh well they dont care about the divsion so...and thats why i have the beauty of youtube and shimmer dvds, so i can sit and watch some of beths matches before she came to the wwe.

 

[Slyfox696]

Disrespectful? no, take Christian he's a prime example of this. In WWE he was a mid carder, and had been for years. But he started getting a huge reaction from the fans when he started his captain charisma gimmick, even though he was a heel. When WWE saw him getting such a huge reaction from the fans they moved him up into a upper card feud with Cena.

Where he got primarily booed.

People often cheer for a guy who even though he's the heel and still draws heat, he develops a fan base because they are entertaining. I think when fans cheer for a heel it is the ultimate sign of respect they have for that wrestler,

And I think those fans cheer for heels because they think they are "smarter" than they really are. They think they understand wrestling better than promoters, and feel they are above the show, not apart of it.

Here's the example I always like to give. Let's say Jack Nicholson is playing The Joker in Batman. Do you hope that Jack Nicholson kills Michael Keaton and that Joker prevails over Batman? What if you are a William Dafoe fan, do you hope the Green Goblin defeats Spiderman? Of course not. In no other entertainment venue do we cheer the bad guys, so why in wrestling?

Because fans of wrestling think they are above the show, and not apart of it.

fans nowadays look for what wrestlers are entertaining them. I don't think there is anything wrong with that,

There is something wrong with it. It totally destroys the face/heel divide, and when there is no face/heel divide, then wrestling struggles to exist. Wrestling is founded upon the principle of Good vs. Evil, always has been. When you can no longer pit Good vs. Evil, then the main attraction to wrestling is gone. In it's place, you just have random workers going around with personal grievances, and why do I care if Edge doesn't like Chavo? I don't. What I DO care about is Hulk Hogan vs. Sting. Hulk Hogan, who was the ultimate fan favorite, who turned his back on the fans and broke all the rules facing Sting, the man who finally would stand up to Hogan, who would put Hogan in his place, and be the man, the Good, to finally vanquish Evil.

That's what I care about. THAT is why face/heel disposition is so important. And that is why cheering heels and booing faces is so damaging.

I can relate to you however when you talk about faces getting boo'ed, that i spose can be considered a bit disrespectful, however thats up to that indivdual. Every single fan has a unique opinion on a wrestler, and on how entertaining there are, there are bound to be some people that are not entertained by a wrestler.

If you're not entertained, then do nothing. Turn it off. Leave.

For example if you watch a comedy film and wou don't find it funny, are you going to laugh, no because it wasn't entertaining for you personally.

Yes, and while you are watching that film in the theater, are you going to start booing? No, because that ruins the film for everyone else who is trying to enjoy it. So, why do you do it in wrestling.

*shrugs* Sorry Slyfox, I just don't watch WWE to follow thier rules of who I am and am not supposed to cheer for. Its their job to entertain me, and they do. How, isn't really important to me.

It's not "WWE's rules" to follow. The hell with the WWE. It's WRESTLING'S rules to follow. You're not some revolutionary by booing faces and cheering heels, you're just disrespectful.

I'll always love Triple H. And I don't care who bashes him on the internet or how many people say he is nothing without screwing Steph.

I'll always love Cactus Jack, no matter how many books Foley comes back to plug.

I'll always love Flair, no matter how many times he jobs.

All three of those guys are faces. No problems there.

Some people you just like. Could Echelon send me link after link after link of people just as talented or with the body type that Beth Phoenix has? I'd put money on it. But they are not in WWE. There's only one. And after putting up with 10 years of worthless Stacy Kieblers and Candice Michelles, you're damned right I'll cheer for Beth every single time, regardless of what alignment she is that week. She could take a 10 year old out of the front row and nail him with that Fisherman's Suplex and I'd love it just the same.

So, you're criteria for cheering people is based upon the abilities of people in other companies?

 

[Shocky]

Here's the example I always like to give. Let's say Jack Nicholson is playing The Joker in Batman. Do you hope that Jack Nicholson kills Michael Keaton and that Joker prevails over Batman? What if you are a William Dafoe fan, do you hope the Green Goblin defeats Spiderman? Of course not. In no other entertainment venue do we cheer the bad guys, so why in wrestling?

I dunno, Kim Bassinger and Kirsten Dunst got pretty annoying in those movies. They made Spiderman out to be too much of a whiny bitch, Sam Raimi totally over rated as a director. Honestly, Gwen should have been in the first one and she should have died, would have been a better impact on the storyline.

Off Topic Rant over.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Yeah and in Tim Burton's Batman The Joker was by far the more intresting character. Not in the comics, but in the film he was. Batman Returns would have been more intresting if The Joker had turned into a vigilante dressed like a bat imo.

 

[Shocky]

Jack Nicholson was technically the star of the first Batman movie anyway, he got first billing. It all goes back to a paper I read back in college about how the Joker is actually the protagonist and the Batman is the Antagonist. Batman is a facist that lives by the word of the law with no interpretation, and all the Joker is trying to do is spread a little fun and mischief into the world. Pretty interesting read, I'll try to find it, but I doubt I can.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Jack Nicholson was technically the star of the first Batman movie anyway, he got first billing. It all goes back to a paper I read back in college about how the Joker is actually the protagonist and the Batman is the Antagonist. Batman is a facist that lives by the word of the law with no interpretation, and all the Joker is trying to do is spread a little fun and mischief into the world. Pretty interesting read, I'll try to find it, but I doubt I can.

Batman is crazier than the villains he's facing. That's always been the impression I've got from the novels. He's just quietly insane, and not as flamboyant.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

And I think those fans cheer for heels because they think they are "smarter" than they really are. They think they understand wrestling better than promoters, and feel they are above the show, not apart of it.

I don't really bring my ego into it. I just watch it, and when I see something I like, I cheer.

Because fans of wrestling think they are above the show, and not apart of it.
There is something wrong with it. It totally destroys the face/heel divide, and when there is no face/heel divide, then wrestling struggles to exist. Wrestling is founded upon the principle of Good vs. Evil, always has been. When you can no longer pit Good vs. Evil, then the main attraction to wrestling is gone. In it's place, you just have random workers going around with personal grievances, and why do I care if Edge doesn't like Chavo? I don't. What I DO care about is Hulk Hogan vs. Sting. Hulk Hogan, who was the ultimate fan favorite, who turned his back on the fans and broke all the rules facing Sting, the man who finally would stand up to Hogan, who would put Hogan in his place, and be the man, the Good, to finally vanquish Evil.

That's what I care about. THAT is why face/heel disposition is so important. And that is why cheering heels and booing faces is so damaging.

If you're not entertained, then do nothing. Turn it off. Leave.
Yes, and while you are watching that film in the theater, are you going to start booing? No, because that ruins the film for everyone else who is trying to enjoy it. So, why do you do it in wrestling.

It's not "WWE's rules" to follow. The hell with the WWE. It's WRESTLING'S rules to follow. You're not some revolutionary by booing faces and cheering heels, you're just disrespectful.

You made some points there, so I'll address them. I love the idea of good versus evil. I really do. The problem is that just because someone is good, doesn't make them likeable. And just because someone is evil doesn't make them UN-likeable.

I'll go ahead and draw some heat from the forums now with this: I LOVED THE TRIPLE H REIGN of 2003-2004! I cherished it. Because the only person he fought that I liked was Shawn Michaels. Booker T? Annoying. RVD? I don't get behind people openly proud of smoking pot. Kane? Maybe, but lets not drag Katie Vick into this. I just loved HHH. I came into wrestling right at his 2002 return, and he was my hero at the time. Just cause he went heel doesn't mean I turned on him. I tend to develop character loyalty. Its sort of like reading a novel. Just because a character turns in chapter 14 doesn't mean you throw the book out and buy a new one. Honestly, some faces are just annoying, irritating, or worse. Walk down to the Anti-Cena thread and you'll find an epic of hatred for a "Face".

All three of those guys are faces. No problems there.

Yes, but they've all been heel, too. And I wouldn't care if they were. I can throw some other names in there, like Shane McMahon who is heel. But I also loved his running chair save at Kane after he Tombstoned his mother. Granted, it was a face move, but I popped when he arrived. He could have come out and hit Austin and I would have cheered as much, just cause he's Shane.

So, you're criteria for cheering people is based upon the abilities of people in other companies?

No, not at all. Its just a line I draw between what I accept and what I choose not to. As a roleplayer in my free time, I have a good suspension of disbelief, but there are LINES. The idea that twig girls like Maria can beat Beth crosses over that line. There is no way in hell a woman like Maria, or Candice for that matter... could or should EVER be able to pin Beth in way that doesn't involve a sneaky pin like Maria's Playboy Entry Match a few weeks ago, or something like a chair shot to the FACE. What I am saying is that we need LESS Maria's in the company and MORE Beth's. If everything Beth does is a squash, then the problem isn't her, its the rest of the worthless Divas. But WWE wants eye candy, and that's what we get. And that's why Beth is heel. They did the same crap with Victoria when she first showed up.

And I am not being sexist here. This works both ways. I'll NEVER cheer Mysterio. EVER. I cannot nor will I ever get behind the absurdity of him ever beating Khali, Big Show, Batista, or anyone of that caliber of mass and size. I'll buy that Shawn Michaels can beat Batista, but actually wanting me to believe that dropping the dime from Rey Rey can topple a 300 pounder is stupid. Every one of those matches is a huge botchfest in the face of the laws of physics.

On a side note, I spent20 years waiting for Tom to get Jerry, the Coyote to get the Roadrunner, and for Elmer to shoot Bugs. I got one of those thanks to Family Guy.

 

[Capt. Charisma]

I understand that boo'ing a face can have a negative impact on a feud, I don't personally do it. However I think cheering a heel is ok its not how fans are supposed to react, but if you have a really entertaing heel like, then people can't help but cheer for them. The Rock, Austin, Savage, Christian, HBK, hell even John Cena- have all been cheered as a heel, I don't think there is a big of a problem with that as you implied.