Goliath Uterus
Getting Noticed By Management
But it's related to the election, keep up sport.
An Apology
- Thread starter Dagger Dias
- Start date
You amaze me with your horrific humor. Keep playing the role of the annoying-chime-in-guy. You play it perfectly.
Well one of my best friends is gay as is my boss. I like and respect both of these people as they offer great friendship, entertainment and give me some fashion sense. I do not judge these people in a negative way because they are gay as I simply do not care. I do not live in a particular neighbourhood where gays get persecuted (as that is everywhere) but I do want my son to be straight. Yes I want grand kids at some point but that is not the reason I don't want a gay son. I am not sure I have a reason that will satisfy you for why I want a straight son other than I just do, not because I am anti gay this is what I want and for me I think that is a natural male heterosexual opinion. If I am incorrect fine but if I were to ask 20 of my friends I am SURE they will state the same.
Sorry if that bothers you.
I would say that if I were the person with the aversion to the thought of having a gay child I would think about why that actually bothers me, I wouldn't be satisfied with just feeling that way without knowing why. Also, I would agree with you that not wanting a gay son probably is a natural heterosexual response (although we would likely disagree on why we think that), but that doesn't mean you have to feel that way.
Goliath Uterus
Getting Noticed By Management
I didn't mean to horrify you, I aplogize.
So whose side are you on here? It seems as if you're justifying it being okay NOT to be tolerant of homosexuals, which seems the opposite of where you started.
While I disagree with the idea a kleptomaniac can simply "turn it off" whenever he wants, assume for a moment he can. If I can still love my child despite the fact he doesn't control his urges, even though he can, why would that be any different from how I treat my child who can't be cured?
Your paragraph doesn't make any sense. I can not tolerate their habits, and still love the child.
No, you and others are just giving him a lot of shit about them, because they don't align with your personal beliefs.
But it IS a sin. The concept of sin is a Christian idea, and Christianity has pretty clearly said it's a sin for a long time. Why are you getting upset about something which is true?
Indeed, what did happen to that? How come you're treating me differently than you're treating Dagger? What was it Jesus said about turning the other cheek?
You were.
And that's why I explained to you what I did.
What were you wanting clarification on? You quoted his post, what he said was pretty clear. If there was confusion on your part, why not just re-read what he said?
That may be, but your post completely misses the point of my response. SavageTaker challenged Dagger's statement that he could love his child even if he didn't agree with the child's sexuality. Essentially, SavageTaker was saying he didn't believe it was possible to love a child, while at the same time, not be tolerant of who they are sexually attracted to.
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
SavageTaker said he didn't think it was possible for someone to love their gay-child if they were so intolerant of the fact that they were gay. You posted saying that loving a child has nothing to do with tolerating their habits, and you gave examples of hypothetical situations in which you could love your child yet not tolerate something about them. I posted saying that your examples are not relevant because the comparisons are nothing like homosexuality, I'm saying that your post didn't really refute anything SavageTaker said. Personally, if a parent had a gay child and they were intolerant of the fact that the child was gay, I would question if they really loved their child.
I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong about my examples. My examples were just that, examples, to show how it is possible. My sister was suspected to have ADHD when she was younger, did my mother not love her because she insisted my sister be still and behave, despite her natural tendencies to do otherwise?
There's nothing EXACTLY like homosexuality, just like there's nothing EXACTLY like ADHD or kleptomania. But in all three cases, it's a situation where a person is different from the norm. And in all three cases, it's easy to see how you can love someone, while not tolerating their habits.
So then what are you saying? In regards to homosexuality, do you believe that you not tolerate their homosexuality yet still love them? SavageTaker was clearly criticizing Dagger's belief that he could have a gay child and love them, yet not tolerate their being gay. You responded to that by giving examples of situations where a parent could love their child while not tolerating their actions.
Either you agree with Dagger that you can love your gay child despite not tolerating their homosexuality, in which case my post was saying that I think you're wrong and that you're examples, while proving that it's possible to love a child and not love their actions, didn't really matter because it's not true in the scenario we're talking about. Who cares if it's possible to love your child despite their actions in scenario X and Y, when neither is related to and are in no way similar to scenario Z which is what we're talking about?
Or you agree with SavageTaker that it's not actually possible to love a gay child despite not tolerating their homosexuality, and you just posted your examples as an aside to the actual issue we were talking about.
Basically I don't understand your statement that I missed the point of your post. It seems like you're saying that you agree with Dagger that you can love a gay child despite not tolerating their homosexuality, yet you tell me I've misunderstood when I respond to that by saying I think you're wrong, and even though your examples are true, they don't apply to homosexuality.
Blue Chipper
Shapeshifting Humanoid
Fuck if I know. All I see are people saying that it's not possible to love someone and not tolerate something about them.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I never said you can't not tolerate something about some still love them. I simply asked dagger how he could do it because in wanted to see his response.
I'll reply to you once I'm home Sly.
I'll reply to you once I'm home Sly.
I thought I've been pretty clear throughout...
Exactly. What else would I do, call him a big fat liar?
I do.
In which case I then posted you were wrong about that.
Because I don't have a gay child. In fact, I'm guessing none of us do. Which means we're ALL speaking in hypotheticals, and the only thing we can compare it to is situations we have experience with in our life.
Your first post in response to me ended with "that doesn't mean everyone should accept a parent who loves their child but won't tolerate a behaviour that only has evidence to suggest it's the product of reasons that are of no fault to the child."
From how I read that, you were saying a parent who doesn't tolerate a gay child should be considered a lousy person, even if they love their child. That idea is reinforced by the fact you said earlier in the post, "We agree that you can love a child and not tolerate some of their behaviour".
It may be a person who doesn't tolerate homosexuality but still loves their child should be considered a lousy person, but it DOESN'T change the fact it is still possible to love your child while not liking the gender of the people they date.
Sure, it's possible that you love your gay child but you don't like their gay lifestyle, however if I knew who said that, I would question if they really do love their child, it's easy to say that you do, but with a mindset like that I would be skeptical. My own opinion is in between yours and what I thought SavageTaker's was - it's possible but I would question it.
My real point is that your examples are wildly different than the scenario we're talking about. Not tolerating a child's destructive tendencies like compulsive lying or stealing is not remotely the same to not tolerating a child's harmless sexual preference. It's clearly understandable not to tolerate a child's stealing, or lying, it's not understandable to not tolerate a child's homosexuality.
The example you have given that is actually akin to the scenario we're talking about is here:
I don't know your mother, but I would hope that she tolerated your sisters ADHD, if she didn't I feel badly for your sister. In fact, this situation is exactly the same, if I had a child with ADHD, I wouldn't like that they have ADHD, I would prefer if they didn't for a lot of logical reasons, but I would be understanding and do what I could for my child, that seems reasonable and good parenting. Having a child with ADHD and not being understanding and not tolerating the behaviours that he/she had a very hard time controlling (and are not destructive) would seem like a really shitty thing to do.
So yes, it's possible to love your child and not be tolerant of some behaviours, although I would question someones love for their child if that behaviour was something that wasn't destructive (or even harmless) and natural - like a mental disorder, learning disability, or homosexuality.
Do you disagree with that?
My mother didn't tolerate her restlessness and lack of focus. She insisted my sister work to improve her attention span and to understand acceptable times to be restless and unacceptable times. She taught her how she needed to behave in order to do what she wants to do in life. However, the idea my mother didn't love my sister, or that my sister doesn't love my mother in return is ludicrous. It was my mother's love for my sister which dictated how she treated her, and they have a good relationship today.
Yes.
Unconditional love is not dependent upon unconditional support. My grandparents are staunch Republicans. I'm anti-Republican but it doesn't prevent them from loving me. And that IS a choice, unlike homosexuality. Perhaps political affiliation isn't as serious as Christian sin, but the basic premise remains the same.
I'm sorry, I simply cannot buy into the argument that loving your child means supporting everything about them.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I never said it's okay for people to not be tolerant of homosexuals, I don't think that's right at all. There's a difference between people not accepting something and not being tolerant of something. In this case, I understand why people aren't accepting but I still think it's something that should be tolerated since it's completely natural and it should be put up with especially if it's someone's child that is homosexual. Just my personal opinion, that's all.
Also, I never stated you can't love a child without tolerating him or her actions and completely natural urges. I think your taking the question I asked Dagger completely out of context and trying to make it look like I expressed that opinion, which I didn't.
I'm not upset in all honesty, but because the bible says something it doesn't make it true. If I wrote a book that said being straight is a sin and homosexuality is the way to be and people read it in thousands of years and believed in what I was spewing, would that make it true then?
Why am I treating you differently? Because you're not being a complete arse. And because you're not coming in here telling me one thing and then flip flopping and saying something completely different.
Just for the record, I don't dislike Dagger or anyone else for that matter, but I also don't see eye to eye with him and his ways.
So that way people, like yourself, don't think I was twisting his words and taking them out of context. If he clarified his feelings, I might have been completely wrong about what I thought he was trying to say.
Then hopefully you can now see things through Dagger's eyes.
The problem with your question is that you are the one who is attaching importance to the Bible. If you felt the Bible carried no weight in the real world, why would you be offended by Dagger's comment about it being a sin?
If you do accept, or at least attach importance to, the Bible, then you cannot get around the fact that homosexuality is considered a sin by the Bible. As is adultery, which runs rampant throughout the United States, so it's not like you're in exclusive company. But the fact remains true, nonetheless.
So then you are saying you're allowed special instances of when you don't have to follow the ideas of treating everyone equally and loving everyone based upon how you view the world, but Dagger isn't allowed those circumstances? It seems to me you're now flip-flopping on your beliefs.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you want to call Dagger a cum-guzzling sack of shit. Lord knows I've said plenty of negative things about him, just ask those with Board Room access. But I'm also not the one who is bringing up the idea of treating everyone with love and fairness, something you seemed to insist should be adhered to.
As the old saying goes, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
And I don't dislike you. But so many of the things you seem to take issue with Dagger about you're also guilty of doing.
But you didn't repeat what he said, you took his words and tried to entrap him with those words, so you could have a nifty little quote to refer back to later, similar to what people have done recently with Dagger's words from a few months ago. I mean, imagine what people would think when they read that Dagger said, "Yes, being gay is just as bad as killing someone".
I suppose you could deny that's what you were trying to get him to say, but I'd rather you continue to be honest with me as you've been for most of this thread and just admit I'm right about why you really asked him to clarify, when his words were pretty clear.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
Not really because his words weren't taken out of context. He even admitted in this thread that's what he meant.
How am I attaching importance to the bible? I was merely giving you and example as to why the bible shouldn't be taken so literal. Personally, I feel that people need to understand that the bible is as old as dirt and that many of the things it says shouldn't apply now. People should make up their mind as to what's wrong and what's right, not let some book tell them how they should feel. That's why I provided the example of me writing something and people believing it in a thousand years.
I do think people should be treated with love and fairness, to a certain extent. I did try to treat Dagger fairly by not blindly believing the things people said about him and just bashing him because that was the "cool" thing to do. But when he said something that I felt passionate about and confronted him about it (maybe not in the best of ways, but what's done is done now), he simply failed to give any sort of proper response. He just decided to ignore me.
I don't think I am. I've maintained my beliefs and don't plan on changing them. I haven't lied or flip flopped about anything like Dagger has done on multiple occasions.
I know I didn't repeat what he said, nor did I claim to have done that. I simply saw something he posted and asked him if it related to the subject of homosexuiality since he considers both things a sin. It was not my intention to get him to say that so I could later use it against him. Knowing me, I would've completely forgot in a few months that he even said.
So Sly, I'll continue to be honest and inform you that in fact, you're wrong here. I didn't attempt to get him to say something just to have a quote to use later on when I need something to refer back to.
For the record, and I've only skimmed this debate, but the point should be made that ADHD is a mental disorder, while sexual orientation is not. The former can be addressed in a medical context, once again, the latter cannot. To this end, the argument about tolerance needs a distinction. It's perfectly understandable, even positive, to not tolerate the effects of a mental illness that can be addressed. Not tolerating a child's sexual orientation is more akin to not tolerating a child who had been born lacking a limb.
Agreed, tolerating is a shitty word to use, but it's what was said at some point and I just ran with it personally.
Blue Chipper
Shapeshifting Humanoid
I've not researched in awhile, or googled the subject, but what is the accepted consensus these days among the scientific community in regards to what factors influence the determination of one's sexual orientation? Is it now accepted that it is more biological factors than environmental?
And I realize I'm probably swaying off subject to an extent.
And I realize I'm probably swaying off subject to an extent.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
I don't know much about religion but I do always find some amusement in watching people judge others for being too judgmental.
