An Apology

[DirtyJosé]

I'm curious; why do those of you who believe homosexuality to be sin hold such beliefs? I'm not looking to start a thread or add to Paper's thread in the whatever-section-that-used-to-be-the-Cigar Lounge section, but I really would like to know. I've seen the often quoted verses, but these are translations made to serve a purpose and not made with the interest of accuracy or proper context at heart. I really don't mean this to be an attack on religion, and Christianity specifically, but I find this commonly held belief to be based on fallacy and the ease with which certain phrases and verses can be twisted to serve the purpose of suppressing the "undesirables".

 

[ABMorales787]

There's nothing wrong with homosexuality other than what you do with your ass Christianity-wise.

I will admit I will feel pretty uncomfortable if the product of my semen showed up with another man. Call it being disturbed by the unknown territory if you'd like.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I think it is denounced as going against nature (not just religion and God) if you are intimate with a being of the same sex.

 

[Coco]

I have company this month. A close friend of my wife from California. We cannot afford to take any vacations for a while and we do not know when we will ever see each other again so her friend came to visit us for a whole month due to a long break at work. My normal posting habits should pick up again in the next few days when I have more time on my hands. Nice to know you miss my posting sprees, Coco.

I miss nothing. Just showing off my mod-like powers of observation.

Could I get some proof of that?

See: Every argument Slyfox has ever had.

 

[KnowMyRole-ShutYourMouth]

I forgive you.

 

[Miko]

I still consider myself a Christian, and yes that does mean I view homosexuality as a sin. (Shattered, that should answer your question) However, no two sins are worse than the other. A kid stealing candy is just as sinful as a murderer killing someone innocent. A sin is a sin. No human being is perfect and I am no different.




No, there is no scale on sin. Just as I said in the previous paragraph. I have sinned, just as you amd everyone else has. I am not perfect. That's no reason for my father to feel like a failure because of me. I went too far in that post, but it IS how I feel. I believe that we are to date people of the other gender. Some agree with that. Some do not.

You know, I dont normally go in for this sort of thing. But, do you really see the world in this kind of black and white beyond reason? There is a scale on sin, this is why we have a justice system and dont just go around cutting peoples hands off regardless of their crime.

To be more blunt. It sounds like your basically saying that the young boy stealing sweets is as bad as the peadophile that kidnaps and rapes him later in the day. Oh and that gays are as bad as murderers too. Am I wrong?

 

[Slyfox696]

So let me get this straight. You'd love your children no matter what they do, yet you wouldn't tolerate it if they lived with you (your words, not mine)?

I'm pretty certain those words of him not tolerating them came from long ago. Besides that, why does loving your child mean you have to tolerate their habits?

If my kid lied to me, do you think I would tolerate it? Of course not. Would I still love my kid? Absolutely. Same goes if my child was a kleptomaniac. I would love my child, but I would not tolerate that behavior under my roof.

It's called parenting. And while I personally have no problem with a child of mine being gay, I would love and support them wholeheartedly, that doesn't mean I'll force my beliefs onto those who don't. So many non-Christians get upset because they feel Christians try to force their belief onto others (which is true), but just as many non-Christians do the exact same thing. Those are his beliefs, and he's entitled to them, just as you are entitled to yours.

Also, how can you love someone who is constantly sinning, since according to you being a homosexual is a sin?

For the same reason I can love my klepto child, as stealing is also a sin. It's one of the 10 biggies, in fact.

So since according to you, a kid stealing a candy bar is just as bad as committing murder, does that mean being a homosexual is just as bad as committing murder since they're both sins and no sin is worse than the other (again, your words not mine)?

I think you're deliberating twisting his words into a meaning it wasn't intended.

He's saying, I believe, that whether you steal or kill it's a sin. They are both equally sin. Do they have different consequences and legal ramifications? Absolutely. But they are both sins, which require forgiveness from God.

Do you see what's wrong with you? One thing is to not accept homosexuality which I'm fine with, but when you go and make comments like the one's you've made, you just make yourself look absolutely ignorant.

I would argue this post of yours has done the exact same thing for you.

 

[Davi323]

He's saying, I believe, that whether you steal or kill it's a sin. They are both equally sin. Do they have different consequences and legal ramifications? Absolutely. But they are both sins, which require forgiveness from God.

Yep. While there are going to be huge differences in discipline for actions here on Earth, God says there are no unforgivable sins. If you do anything sinful, no matter how large or how small, if you genuinely ask for forgiveness (God knows if you mean it or not, thus you can't just do a "sorry" flippantly) the slate will be wiped clean.

 

[SavageTaker]

I'm pretty certain those words of him not tolerating them came from long ago. Besides that, why does loving your child mean you have to tolerate their habits?

It was actually like 4 or 5 months ago and he said that's how he still feels. I was just wondering what his response would be, hence why I asked him that question.

If my kid lied to me, do you think I would tolerate it? Of course not. Would I still love my kid? Absolutely. Same goes if my child was a kleptomaniac. I would love my child, but I would not tolerate that behavior under my roof.

There's a difference though, which I don't think you see. Lying and stealing are two completety different things than being a homosexual. Both of those you can control. But if your child feels like they can't control their lying or stealing, then there's help available for them in order for those things to be "cured." With homosexuality, you can't just go to a therapist and hope that they are able to "cure" you and turn you straight.

It's called parenting. And while I personally have no problem with a child of mine being gay, I would love and support them wholeheartedly, that doesn't mean I'll force my beliefs onto those who don't. So many non-Christians get upset because they feel Christians try to force their belief onto others (which is true), but just as many non-Christians do the exact same thing. Those are his beliefs, and he's entitled to them, just as you are entitled to yours.

I'm not saying he's not entitled to his feelings at all. If you look at the thread about homosexuality in the Potluck section, I'm actually okay with people not accepting homosexuality. There's a wrong way of saying things and a right way. If he'd simply have said he doesn't accept because of his religion or whatever other reason, then cool. I wouldn't have had a problem at all. I can't come in here and tell you your religion is wrong because I know I wouldn't want the same to be said about my beliefs. However, when you go and say it's a sin and all this other crap, I will take offense.

Whatever happened to loving everyone equally? Or being accepting of all kinds of people?

I think you're deliberating twisting his words into a meaning it wasn't intended.

He's saying, I believe, that whether you steal or kill it's a sin. They are both equally sin. Do they have different consequences and legal ramifications? Absolutely. But they are both sins, which require forgiveness from God.

I don't think I was twisting his words at all, that's the way it came accross. That's why I asked him if he believes homosexuality is just as bad as committing murder since according to the bible there is no sin worse than another. Just because someone is a part of a certain religion doesn't mean they have to agree with everything in it which is why I was asking for clarification in the form of a question.

 

[D-Man]

As far as me being accused of being homophobic, I am sorry for contradicting myself in my posts. I should have stayed true to how I actually am and been honest. What I had stated in the post that got quoted was how I feel. I understand why some people would feel offended by it. I should not compromise what I believe just to try to please everyone. I would rather be honest and be myself. If that means people disagree with me, then that is just another opporunity to debate on a topic. We are all adults here and can agree to disagree. I apologize for contradicting my posts. However, I have a right to my opinion just as much as each of you do.

I was just wondering if you were sorry for contradicting your posts.

 

[SalvIsWin]

I think it is denounced as going against nature (not just religion and God) if you are intimate with a being of the same sex.

What's this mean? Denounced as what? By whom? I think you're talking about the evolution of our species, and that someone could say that homosexuality impedes the progress of evolution, or maybe you meant that the 'purpose' of our species is to propagate our genes and homosexuals don't do this because homosexual's cannot have children. Is that what you meant?

I'm pretty certain those words of him not tolerating them came from long ago. Besides that, why does loving your child mean you have to tolerate their habits?

If my kid lied to me, do you think I would tolerate it? Of course not. Would I still love my kid? Absolutely. Same goes if my child was a kleptomaniac. I would love my child, but I would not tolerate that behavior under my roof.

It's called parenting. And while I personally have no problem with a child of mine being gay, I would love and support them wholeheartedly, that doesn't mean I'll force my beliefs onto those who don't. So many non-Christians get upset because they feel Christians try to force their belief onto others (which is true), but just as many non-Christians do the exact same thing. Those are his beliefs, and he's entitled to them, just as you are entitled to yours.

You can love a child and still not tolerate everything they do, but not tolerating a child's homosexuality is different than not tolerating a child's stealing or lying, so your example illustrating how you can love a child but not love what the child does doesn't really apply.

Example: We agree that you can love a child and not tolerate some of their behaviour, so what about a father that doesn't tolerate his son wearing long sleeve shirts, to the father it's just unacceptable and destructive to wear a long sleeved shirt. Even though the concept of loving the child but not the habits is understood, this father is still acting ridiculous and that concept doesn't excuse him of that. You can call that parenting, but it's shitty parenting, that's the difference. No one is going to argue with a parent who loves their child but won't tolerate their violence, or compulsive lying, but that doesn't mean everyone should accept a parent who loves their child but won't tolerate a behaviour that only has evidence to suggest it's the product of reasons that are of no fault to the child.

 

[Kermit]

First of all, sorry if I turned this thread into an unwanted direction in the form of religious debate or conversion. However, I knew fully well that my response to Dagger might cause so.

A women is being stoned. Ok. Now you know that this is inhumane. And she should be tried by law. But stoning here is the law.

Where is here? The place that I live in, America, does not have such law.

Now, can you say 'who are we to reject something that we don't have/follow' to this? Because that is what you said about homosexuality.

I'm really really sorry, but I'm still not quite understanding what you are wanting to know from me here.

I understand they are very different, I just wanna know where the line is in having a problem and accepting it.

I think I may know what you are asking now. Yes, these two things are very different because they are in two totally different parts of the world. I cannot account for their beliefs, or how they believe situations should be treated. Stoning someone is murdering, the Bible says that murder is a sin. So that is my stance on what they are actually doing.

On the topic of judging. Christians are not given the authority to judge people, except for fellow Christians, but that is a different aspect all together.

I hope I answered it someway or form in there, if not please tell me. I'm not trying to avoid the question, but maybe I'm just having a big brain fart about what you are asking. Cheers.

I'm curious; why do those of you who believe homosexuality to be sin hold such beliefs?

I'll be honest Jose. I partially grew up in a Christian home and drifted away from such beliefs in high school. I was a full blown atheist and didn't believe in God at all. After arriving to college, I accepted Christ and have been living such a life style since. I know, from my own personal account, whether you agree that is true, or not, is up to you, that God is real and that he has shown me through providence and his presence. If I believe that then I believe in his word, that is man written and God inspired, the Bible. The Bible tells me that God says that homosexuality is a sin.

I trust God, and I know a lot of the things we believe in don't seem right to people who just want everyone to get along, but this is what my God has said to me through his word. I believe it, and you can call it blindness or brainwashed, but I believe it is something else. I won't judge anyone's beliefs, nor will I push mine down their throats. I can't speak for God or declare the sole reason why he chose it. Maybe it's because God didn't intend for us to be that way, or maybe it is something else. Again, that is my belief. Cheers.

Yep. While there are going to be huge differences in discipline for actions here on Earth, God says there are no unforgivable sins. If you do anything sinful, no matter how large or how small, if you genuinely ask for forgiveness (God knows if you mean it or not, thus you can't just do a "sorry" flippantly) the slate will be wiped clean.

This is not entirely true.

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" (NKJV, emphasis added).

The blasphemy of the Spirit is the denial of salvation. It's not talking about making fun of tongues or the Holy Spirit. Again, as I previously mentioned in my first post; if you don't believe in God, Heaven, and Hell. Then this verse shouldn't bother you because it is not real to you. Cheers.

---

I hope I answered all the questions properly. Again, sorry for derailing the topic.

 

[Goliath Uterus]

Your reading comprehension is poor:



I didn't ask to hear anyone's dictionary definition of homophobia, I wanted to hear personal definitions. Surprisingly, you failed.

My definition is no different from the real definition, dumbass..... So what was the point of asking that question?

 

[Chess]

I really don't get why so many people are jumping on the fact Dagger has a problem if his child were to turn out to be gay?

I don't see people jumping on others who post things that could be considered homophobic.

********ermotherfucker

Homophobic?

Cockmouth

Homophobic?

******

Homophobic? Probably!

Bellsniff.

Homophobic?

Anyway as you can see many people post things that could be considered anti gay or homophobic when in reality these are just random remarks. I have not seen anyone on these forums who is openly homophobic.

I would honestly be surprised if any heterosexual man would be happy if their son turned out to be gay. I have a 7 month old boy and do I want him to be gay, fuck no. Does this make me homophobic? Hell no! it simply means I am a normal heterosexual man. I honestly don't believe half of you who say it wouldn't bother you if your child was gay. I think you either do not have children and therefore have an uninformed opinion or you are just jumping on the bandwagon to hate on Dagger.

Also why turn this into a Christianity debate. The Bible clearly states that being homosexual is not the correct thing to do but in the same time it tells us not to judge eachother for what we do. In the end everyone will live their lives how they want, let God judge them when its time and let us not assume someone is anti gays just because they don't want a gay child.

Also if any of you think I am a pro Dagger guy, forget that. I honestly couldn't give a monkeys who wins the mod position as it simply does not effect me, I just think this bullying or hate mongering of people needs to be put on the back burner.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

There's one thing I'll say in here and then that's it.

I hate homophobes. To judge people like that is downright wrong. It's one of the reason I will never vote Dagger, however much I might be off the point.

Be gay, be lesbian, be bisexual, you're all respected by myself.

 

[SalvIsWin]

Anyway as you can see many people post things that could be considered anti gay or homophobic when in reality these are just random remarks. I have not seen anyone on these forums who is openly homophobic.

Words over time have come to mean different things altogether than their original purpose. The word idiot was once a legitimate mental health term used for someone for a significantly below average IQ, but a lot of people say idiot now and it's not meant to offend actually mentally deficient people. The same goes for the word ****** or ******ed, that used to be a term for a person who was mentally ******ed, but a lot of people call others ****** or say an idea is ******ed, it's not meant to offend mentally deficient people, the word has just developed that way. Even so, there's a lot of people who wouldn't use the words ****** or ****** because they can still be offensive to someone who is mentally deficient or gay, but that's besides the point.

I would honestly be surprised if any heterosexual man would be happy if their son turned out to be gay. I have a 7 month old boy and do I want him to be gay, fuck no. Does this make me homophobic? Hell no! it simply means I am a normal heterosexual man. I honestly don't believe half of you who say it wouldn't bother you if your child was gay. I think you either do not have children and therefore have an uninformed opinion or you are just jumping on the bandwagon to hate on Dagger.

What's the reasoning for you not wanting your son to be gay? Not wanting your son to be gay isn't necessarily homophobic, you could have a good reason. Maybe you live in an area where a gay child where be tremendously bullied, in which case that would be like not wanting to have a female child in an area with a very high incidence of rape, that would be understandable. Maybe you want to have biologically related grandchildren, and thus you want a heterosexual male because a gay male most likely wouldn't provide you with grandchildren - that is understandable. However:

I have a 7 month old boy and do I want him to be gay, fuck no. Does this make me homophobic? Hell no! it simply means I am a normal heterosexual man.

That doesn't sound like you don't want your boy to be gay because of a logical and sound reason, it sounds more like you just hate gay people, which is homophobia.

 

[BK Styles]

There is a huge difference between not agreeing with homosexuality and being homophobic. Daggers words were strong, true that, but they are his feelings on the subject. He isn't saying 'All gays should die' or any stupid shit like that. He strongly disagrees with it because of his faith. Hell, I'm straight-edge, I dislike, no, HATE drinking, dislike seeing my friends drink, and I don't say people who drink should die of liver failure (extreme example, agreed, but it fits). If Dagger has a child and that child turned out to be gay, Dagger may have an issue to begin with, and to be honest I'd be taken aback if I had a son who came out as gay to me. Hell, a fair number of us would. But, he'd have to accept it.

Dagger wrote strong words, but they weren't in a homophobic context. Or at least they weren't meant as such. Not in my eyes.

As far as the apology goes, Dagger, it's gonna take a lot more than just admitting mistakes to win people over, both in the election and in general. A lot of people won't drop it and it will probably taint your reputation for some time. But it does take a man to stand up and accept responsibility for what he's done. Even on an internet forum. And I commend you for that.

 

[SavageTaker]

For the record, I never once called Dagger a homophobe.

 

[D-Man]

Why has this fucking topic stretched out to four consecutive threads!? And why the fuck is everyone so damn serious??

 

[Kermit]

Because, the Internet is serious business. Ya know?

 

[Барбоса]

Why has this fucking topic stretched out to four consecutive threads!? And why the fuck is everyone so damn serious??

Even in the 21st century, people still take religiously based beliefs very seriously

 

[Goliath Uterus]

Why has this fucking topic stretched out to four consecutive threads!? And why the fuck is everyone so damn serious??

This is for a mod spot, you of all people should realize the importance of this election.

 

[Chess]

What's the reasoning for you not wanting your son to be gay? Not wanting your son to be gay isn't necessarily homophobic, you could have a good reason. Maybe you live in an area where a gay child where be tremendously bullied, in which case that would be like not wanting to have a female child in an area with a very high incidence of rape, that would be understandable. Maybe you want to have biologically related grandchildren, and thus you want a heterosexual male because a gay male most likely wouldn't provide you with grandchildren - that is understandable. However:




That doesn't sound like you don't want your boy to be gay because of a logical and sound reason, it sounds more like you just hate gay people, which is homophobia.

Well one of my best friends is gay as is my boss. I like and respect both of these people as they offer great friendship, entertainment and give me some fashion sense. I do not judge these people in a negative way because they are gay as I simply do not care. I do not live in a particular neighbourhood where gays get persecuted (as that is everywhere) but I do want my son to be straight. Yes I want grand kids at some point but that is not the reason I don't want a gay son. I am not sure I have a reason that will satisfy you for why I want a straight son other than I just do, not because I am anti gay this is what I want and for me I think that is a natural male heterosexual opinion. If I am incorrect fine but if I were to ask 20 of my friends I am SURE they will state the same.

Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[Daniel]

I really don't get why so many people are jumping on the fact Dagger has a problem if his child were to turn out to be gay?

I don't see people jumping on others who post things that could be considered homophobic.

Homophobic?

Homophobic?

Homophobic? Probably!

Homophobic?

Anyway as you can see many people post things that could be considered anti gay or homophobic when in reality these are just random remarks. I have not seen anyone on these forums who is openly homophobic.

Not homophobic. Insensitive, perhaps, but not homophobic. Homophobia is rooted in what people think, not what people say.

 

[D-Man]

This is for a mod spot, you of all people should realize the importance of this election.

Last I checked, this was the GSD; not the election thread. So I realize a lot more than you think.