10 years on Montreal Screwjob

[BRandonkin]

Sunny was not single...common law is legally, in the eyes of the laws that govern the country we live in, the same as being married, technically...the same rules apply in a separation between two people who have lived together as a couple for more than a year and a married couple...yes Bret broke his committment to his wife, but shawn was just as much a scumbag for going after an injured wrestler's common law girlfriend who had been with him for nearly ten years at the point, while the man was at home,off the road, recovering from an injury...what's your point?...i never ever defended Bret for cheating on his wife...what does it have to do with wrestling?....the only reason i replied to your post in the first place was because i could not believe that was written was supposed to be English...if your going to bash someone and post an opinion, at least have the decency to spell and phrase correctly..which, to your credit you've done in your last two posts.

You are right and I apologize for calling you a hypocrit I stated my opinion and you felt it was your duty to evaluate my english skills. I have never denied that Shawn was a scumbag, but I say this everyone believes that BRet was going to do the right thing the next night, but why not do the right thing and lose it in a match rather than forfeit like Michaels (the scumbag) did. My point was that everyone was wrong. I do not see Bret as a hero, nor Shawn as a villian. I see two big ego and one giant ego that damage everyones situation.

As for WWE making sense. BRet won the title at in Your House because of Austin distraction, but lost it to sid the very next night because Austin interfered. You don't think they could of build Hart and the Undertaker because of the basis that Undertaker lost to Hart in the fatal four way. But instead put the title back on Sid and have him lose to taker at Wrestlemania. I think Hart could had a feud with taker based on that. I think it better that they did not go that way for Austin, but completly believable.

Once again reddevil69 I do apologize.

 

[beetle717]

Sunny was not single...common law is legally, in the eyes of the laws that govern the country we live in, the same as being married, technically...the same rules apply in a separation between two people who have lived together as a couple for more than a year and a married couple...yes Bret broke his committment to his wife, but shawn was just as much a scumbag for going after an injured wrestler's common law girlfriend who had been with him for nearly ten years at the point, while the man was at home,off the road, recovering from an injury...what's your point?...i never ever defended Bret for cheating on his wife...what does it have to do with wrestling?....the only reason i replied to your post in the first place was because i could not believe that was written was supposed to be English...if your going to bash someone and post an opinion, at least have the decency to spell and phrase correctly..which, to your credit you've done in your last two posts.

Reddevil69, Sunny may not have been legally married, common law is not legal in all states, and we have no way of knowing if they filed the paperwork for common law marraige and no real way of knowing if they met all of the requirments to be eligable in their state. That said what Shawn did was still scumbagish (yes I just now made that word up, but in my defense I couldn't think of something better to put in there).

Dungeon, I will get back to you later pal, no time now.

 

[reddevil69]

Reddevil69, Sunny may not have been legally married, common law is not legal in all states, and we have no way of knowing if they filed the paperwork for common law marraige and no real way of knowing if they met all of the requirments to be eligable in their state. That said what Shawn did was still scumbagish (yes I just now made that word up, but in my defense I couldn't think of something better to put in there).

Dungeon, I will get back to you later pal, no time now.

If you are in a relationship with someone and have lived together for more than a year you are legally common law, you do not need to file paper work, the laws have changed,believe me I know from experience........if there is infidelity in the relationship,the significant other is entitled to half of the assets that were accquired during the tenure of the relationship,just the same as a legal marriage....that's my off topic response for the day...now reply to the dungeon so i can be entertained, that stuff is good...

 

[TheOneBigWill]

This Thread Is To Discuss The Related Topic Of The Montreal Screwjob In 1997. Anymore Discussion That Is Purely Off Topic Will Be Deleted & Infractions Will Be Handed Out.

Stay On Topic!!! If You Wish To Discuss Another Matter, Create Another Thread That Would Be Regarding That Topic. Thank You.

 

[BRandonkin]

If you are in a relationship with someone and have lived together for more than a year you are legally common law, you do not need to file paper work, the laws have changed,believe me I know from experience........if there is infidelity in the relationship,the significant other is entitled to half of the assets that were accquired during the tenure of the relationship,just the same as a legal marriage....that's my off topic response for the day...now reply to the dungeon so i can be entertained, that stuff is good...

Not in all states like Illinois is one where it is not at. Actually it only applies in 16 states at that time (now eleven). That why Sunny had the problems she had with the cremation of Skip. Because she was not married to him, all decision were made by his parents and they gave her a third of what Chris had, yet if she was his wife she would of had it all.

I just think that Bret personal life could show some of the hesitant of taking Bret at his word. He says he honor his word and commitment and to trust him, yet his wife could not. It like if I say I won't lie to you, but I lie to my Mama, brother, Aunt, and everyone else. How much can you put into my word. Before I heard what type of man Bret was and his book, I felt he was a victim of Vince insecurity and fear, yet as I heard about his book and how even though it was not Sunny, but other women that he cheated on yet over reacted at the thought that someone will know he was cheating(according to Michaels which could be a lie), I feel they all are were wrong in the situation. Everyone.

I think the screwjob should be forgiven on all parties because is happen over 10 years ago which was the first point I was making in this thread. It is old. I mean I was a freshmen in high school when this happen. How long is Bret going to bitter about this, and Vince play it up. It time to look for another screwjob, focus on better stories, something.

 

[The Dungeon]

I think the fact that Bret was hypocrit shows the kind of person he really was. Shawn said in 2005 that he does not like Hogan for the same reason he does not liek Bret which is the try to protray standing for something that they do not potray in their private life. HBk was a prick and son of bitch off camera and on camera. After HBK won the belt, Hart bash michaels on every station he could about how he is a degenerate, arrogant primadonna, yet Micahels was faith ful to Sunny for nine months, while BRet was dipping out on his wife.

When you talk about intergrity, Bishoff had just trashed teh women title a year before. The following year, he tried to trash teh ECW title. I understand Vince concern that he would take the WWE title and trash it like Bishoff was doing and ruin WWE. Bret should of Job. His contract was up with WWE, he may not of started WCW til december, but he was no longer employed by WWE after the series. And vince is supposed to wait for Hart to show up a resign as champ. Not when HBK refused ot job, he an asshole yet he did give title up. When Bret does he's a hero. I think all you hart fans are like Hart, Hypocrits. Judge it fairly and down teh middle. Hart did not do what best for the company.

Why because Shawn said he changed?? Give me a break?? Sorry there not perfect liek Mr. Almighty Christian boy Shawn Michaels! He thinks just because he's a man of God now, that makes him better than anyone else and his past faults should be forgotten, yet Bret's faults should forever be etched in stone!!

I'm not saying I don't understand Vince's concern...but you have to keep in mind, that Bret would never do that and I believe him when he says it. Because, within this business, he has not lied!!!. His personal life he's done some stupid things...some way beyond stupid! But you people are just straying off the subject here, to try to back up your theories, it's getting to be rediculous, not too mention annoying!!.

 

[The Dungeon]

Next, I not stating HBK was an angel. What I am stating is Bret was no angel and was not too loyal to his word after he cheating on his wife, used steroids and so forth. It is interesting that you absolutely ignored the part of my argument where I said what you saw with HBK is what he was while Bret tried to act like he was a upstanding individual on camera and his private life was not that way. Some may say "Well, wrestling is acting and that was his character". I accept that, but argue that his documentary made point that he is "the good guy".

Bret never lied about using steroids, where the HELL are you getting this from???

Again, you're just trying to bring in his personal life to try to conincide it somehow with the incidents surrounding Montreal. It has NOTHING to do with it! I'm sorry, but it's a common fact people act differently at work, and not quite the same way at home.

Yes it made the point he was a good guy....the HITMAN character that is! That's what the Documentary was focused on! It never portrayed him any differently then it should have. Those "Good Guy" theories, were stated from a standpoint WITHIN the business and ON the Hitman character, most of his family life was focused on his relationship with Stu in that movie.

To your point of the common law marriage, I do not believe in these common law marriages spiritually speaking. Marriage is a religious institution and should be dealt with before God. HBK sleeping with Sunny was a sin, but I doubt many of us are virgins here so why judge. What is worst though breaking your word before God and your wife, or messing with a chick who stays with here boyfriend. Now if they were married legally and exchanged vows like Hart, I still think Sunny is more wrong than HBK. Sunny broke her word not Michaels. But i do not think they were married, based on how Sunny said in an interview about the battle over his funeral(http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/burgandvd9.html) . Nevertheless Michaels never defends his action or makes himself out to be a saint then. Yet When Bret was breaking his word to his wife and before God (something that this common law marriage does not require), probably telling his wife he was faithful (lying), and then still attacking Michaels because of his lifestyle on camera that reflected who he was. HBK even proposed to Sunny. I wonder has Michaels cheated on Rebecca. They were married for a good while before HBK got saved. Hmmm. It seems to me, both were pricks.

Listen if I wanna hear about moral standings on things I'll read Phil Mushnick's articles, b/c at least he's funny in an unintentional way!

Yes, I agree cheating on wives blows...but stick to the subject at hand people, this is getting stupid.

And how do you know what Bret said to his wife?? I guess you were in the room at the time????

Now, let look at the screw job for what is was. First off in early 1997 when Michaels lost his smile, he knee was ruined. Some say he did not want job to Bret at Wrestlemania. Interesting thing is that Bret did not win it at the WM13 but Taker did and Bret and Austin had that classic match. Surely if the title was going to Hart, he would on won the fatal four ways match and beat taker at WM ending the streak then. Maybe Michael’s knee really was screwed up. Hell, it screwed up now. Maybe. Bret refused to Job to Michaels in Canada. As Ted Dibiase said in the Heartbreak and Triumph film, “A lost is seen all over the world” so whether he lost at SS or Raw, Canada will still see their hero lose. Or was Bret going to take that title to WCW and trash it. I know people are going to say Vince did it with Flair, but the belt was not trashed. It was used to make a feud about who is the real champion. WCW had no class. Or was Bret going to say that nobody beat him that other company and he is still there champ devaluing the WWE title. There was just too much at stake. Do I agree with the screw job? … no. I believe that Vince, Hart, HHH, Shane, and even Bishoff are just as guilty as HBK.

If you've read Bret's book, Bret knew the match wasn't for the belt at WM13. Vince told Bret that they were putting the strap on 'Taker. So that throws that story out the window.

Well it seems pretty clear to me anyway, that it was the PPV audience and live audience that was the primary concern. I don't have a bright answer as to why, but the PPV buyrates in Canada for that PPV were astronomical for that time period.

Bret would not have done that IMO. He had too much respect for the company, his boss, and his buddies. He said he wouldn't leave with the belt, from one interview Bret gave on OTR here in Canada, he said "I would've put it in writing, made it a legally binding document that I couldn't take the belt with me". Bret also said, "The farewell speech was a suggestion, not a demand, I would've been open to something else, Vince had shot down every Idea I had to drop the belt to anyone, then when I said I would drop it to Shawn, just not in Montreal, he still put the kibosh on it".

Maybe Hart was okay in front of people like he was as the Hit man, but that man was politicking and just as bitter HBK.
__________________

Are you soely basing that on what happened in Montreal???? Because really I don't see any other time.

 

[beetle717]

Bret said it was a selfish thing to do for what happened with him and his wife. While I can say, I myself have tried to carry that in all aspects of my OWN life, sometimes people don't do it! But I don't look at them any differently. I have had friends that have made many horrible mistakes, and I'll tell them if they were wrong, but there are some things in life they do carry themselves well in, and I remember that at the end of the day.

While I appreciate your presentation on the subject, to be honest with you I can't...look at the buyrate Survivor Series drew, it was the highest for them that year.



As I've said before, and I'll try to find it from one of my friends. Vince has said that, as long as Bret didn't put himself over anyone, or want to bury any talent on the way out, Vince had no problem allowing him to leave anyway he wanted too, as long as his talent wasn't hurt in the process.

And for most of the scenarios presented, I don't think Shawn would've been hurt.

You're right they wouldn't have hurt Shawn, but they would have hurt the title, you have to remember the appearence of prestige is important to keep the suspended disbelief going. You can't have an uncrowned champ or someone not beaten for the title. That's why what Bret wanted wasn't reasonable and that's why when HBK did forfit it was shitty.

I still insist that many fans and not just the smart marks knew, the reaction of some fans in Toronto, most fans in Detroit and some fans in Montreal, it was pretty apparant it was widespread. Michael Landsberg even mentioned it on "off the record", not sure if you're familliar with it, it's a very popular sports panel talk show on TSN here in Canada, and was extremely popular at the time.

From what I've heard from Meltzer, and he could be wrong I suppose, but the main reason, for that deal was to protect the Survivor Series PPV. After that I still believe Bret & Shawn's last match STILL would've draw big numbers if seen on Raw, just to see HOW they would do it. Or even record the match at a houseshow, and air it on Raw, and the fans would wanna see what happens.

I still don't think Bret was out to hurt his friends at all in anyway shape or form. None of his friends or ever some acquaintances at the time seem to think that he was out to hurt them...

Not arguing it was more than smart marks, I agree, but millions more find out on Nitro if Bischoff isn't a man of his word. It would have gotten huge numbers, but again Eric could legally go out and announce Bret's arrival after Survivor Series, so have the match the Raw before SS and have a rematch Bret doesn't win the title in at Survivor Series.

I didn't say he was out to do it, just that he was willing to risk it. He was willing to know that Eric could legally go out and announce his arrival. If Bret still had the belt that would be a massive, and possibly fatal blow to the WWF. Basically there is a difference to doing it on purpose and willing to risk it happening.

That may very well be true. But I think they'd rather have there jobs secure than to see Shawn get his. I still believe somebody, at least ONE guy would've said something, if they thought Bret was hurting anyone.

WWF still had top notch talent, many of whom could have gotten plenty of work elsewhere. Not to mention that some, like Taker were probably rich enough to retire then and there.

That's what I'm trying to say that the buildup from October to November did...but lets not forget that this thing had been going on since mid 1996, and that stuff was pure gold, but then it became one sided, which doesent seem like a big deal, but could have major affects. It's scripted yes, but fans don't wanna sit there and say "I'm watching a fake show" they wanna get lost in it. They want that element of realism. Which is missing today! Why do you think the Edge/Matt Hardy feud created such a buzz before they (WWE) screwed it up.

I kind of meant for that match, but you're right here, I can't argue with your logic.

I can honestly say people conduct themselves differently at work then they would at home...for a lot of occupations! For example, my Mom works the front office at a Dental Office, and deals with assholes all day long, and she wants to freak out at them all the time. But she refrains...but if someone attacks her personally and disrespect her, she will defend herself.

And while a person may be one in the same, again, in some aspects of life people are different. it may not be neccesarily what I want to be...but taht's just how some people are. Bret Hart the employee in my opinion conducted himself properly. And lets not forget, he was not contractually supposed to lose to Shawn that night.

But this goes back to integrity. If in your marraige, which is infinitely more important then work, you don't have integrity I can't see you having it in your job. But he was contractually obligated to participate and follow the outcome set forth by Vince that he refused.

I still think that it's pretty shitty that you think this, when Bret was lied too the whole time leading up to doing this! He DID stand his ground, but at that time Bret had no creative control, reasonable or not, and there wasn't much he could do. He tried, he said, it's going to be done. Bret didn't want to risk being fired, he stated in his book, that he didn't care how big a star he was, he'd seen Vince fire some big stars in the past, because he felt everyone was expendable.

And I don't think Vince would've had trouble firing Bret at that time, because he'd already tried to persuade him to go to WCW.

All I'm saying is he had a choice. Go thru with the angle, or elevate Rocky. After that choice is made follow through with it. If he got fired he still would have been a hot commodity and gotten plenty of money from WCW.

I think Flair was ONLY standing up for himself, IMO. Again, as I've constantly stated, I don't think that was the only reason why Bret did what he did.

But Flair had more valid reasons, he put down a 25 grand deposit on the belt that wasn't returned, I just don't think he should have showed up on the competitions tv with it. Bret could have easily thrown the belt in the trash like Alundra Blayze did, and Vince needed security, in retrospect he probably spelled it out in Bret's contract. But just because it wasn't in writing doesn't mean Bret wasn't obligated to act honorably.

I just think because Bret was adamant about not losing he would've revealed that WCW wasn't going to name him on TV right away. I know that was a primary concern of Vince's and I'm sure he voiced tha to Bret, and with Bret not wanting to lose, I do truly believe he would've said something.

I know the title was an asset...and while this doesen't mean much for the subject...I kinda gotta sneer at the fact that Vince was putting on a guy who called it a "piece of tin" on TV.

Possibly but not guarenteed, Vince needed assurances, which Bret couldn't provide, Eric has a reputation for shady business practices what makes you think he wouldn't lie?

Well, I dunno, but Kevin Nash has stated in a recent shoot interview with RF Video that "Shawn always found a way to get time off". And Shawn was only gone for approximately 3 months, and was still on TV week after week. He may have been losing house show money, but he was still playing an on air role, and didn't look to be a bad shape to me.

Meanwhile Shawn's injury in 2004, and most recent one you could see he was in dire pain, I didn't see that in 1997.

Still seems screwey to me and always will....

See I didn't take Nash's comment that way, I was thinking taking drugs on purpose to fail drug tests he knew were coming so he could have time off. I don't exactly think taking major knee surgery is a nice relaxing vacation. Injuries have varying degrees of severity, so maybe 2004 was worse then 97. But again your scenerio is possible, I just don't think it's likely.

That's actually a good idea, but Bret didn't appear on Raw that week because of Shawn being a ass the week before. And from what ahs been said in the W.O.N by Meltzer, is that many scenarios were presented, but none of which were approved.

I think Vince didn't want to blow PPV bucks on having there first one on one match in a year and a half on TV.

However...they'd done house shows and Triple Threat Matches, as soon as the day the Sept.22nd Raw went off teh air as it was Shawn/Taker/Bret in a dark match.

With the way things were going back then...I would've done a 4-way dance, Shawn, Bret, 'Taker & Shamrock, and all of them were involved somehow so it makes sense. And yeah, Shawn could get the big win then.

But maybe that was an idea Vince shot down. Guess we'll never know.

But it still would have been big money, just have a controversial ending to the Raw match with Shawn winning underhanded (he was a heel after all) and build it up for Bret's revenge on HBK at PPV. But your idea takes away from the Champ actually losing the belt. Bret needed to be beat, not swindled.

Sorry to be nit picky, but The midget crap was actually on Nov.24th. If Shawn did that shit in Canada, he would've been lynched! Shawn even said, he was glad he got out of both Ottawa and Cornwall alive.

Bret did try to be the bigger man IMO that night in San Jose when Shawn refused.

But he chose to not be the bigger man when not doing business the right way. Which is losing the title the right way.

I work for a painting company, an independant contractor (much like a wrestler is), and when someone disprespects us we aint gonna do shit, and we'll give them there money back and everything. it's not because we don't want to, we just don't tollearte bullshit.

But you were giving back what's theirs, not keeping it and that's the difference.

I can keep going if you want...but I warn you, I'll be takin a couple days off come Christmas time and won't be able to post anything.

I'm enjoying it so we can keep going.

 

[The Dungeon]

You're right they wouldn't have hurt Shawn, but they would have hurt the title, you have to remember the appearence of prestige is important to keep the suspended disbelief going. You can't have an uncrowned champ or someone not beaten for the title. That's why what Bret wanted wasn't reasonable and that's why when HBK did forfit it was shitty.

And Shawn calling the belt a piece of tin was helping???

Bret IMO by not dropping the "piece of tin" to Shawn in Montreal was helping the belt! Yeah, ratings went up after the screwjob, but I believe if there was no screwjob and Shawn was the champ, I don't think Ratings would've spiked huge or anything, at least until Steve got the belt, which I'm presuming was the plan anyway from the get go.

Not arguing it was more than smart marks, I agree, but millions more find out on Nitro if Bischoff isn't a man of his word. It would have gotten huge numbers, but again Eric could legally go out and announce Bret's arrival after Survivor Series, so have the match the Raw before SS and have a rematch Bret doesn't win the title in at Survivor Series.

I didn't say he was out to do it, just that he was willing to risk it. He was willing to know that Eric could legally go out and announce his arrival. If Bret still had the belt that would be a massive, and possibly fatal blow to the WWF. Basically there is a difference to doing it on purpose and willing to risk it happening.

Bischoff had never given McMahon his word on anything!

I believe Bret and I even believe Eric when they say it wasn't going to be announced right away. Again, Bischoff wanted to handle Bret's arrival carefully (ironic eh?), and from what Bischoff has said before, he very well could've announced it on Nitro, but he figured with a better buildup, it could've drawn an even bigger TV audience.

IMO, i dunno this as a fact, but it's possible, I've mentioned before that Bret was ademant that he didn't lose in Montreal, that I'm sure he tried to re-assure Vince of the plans that are going to be taking place. And again, he only did that whole deal with Bischoff to keep things hush on the 10th because Vince wanted him too, and requested him too. And out of respect for his boss, he did so, because they wanted to protect the build into the Survivor Series PPV.

WWF still had top notch talent, many of whom could have gotten plenty of work elsewhere. Not to mention that some, like Taker were probably rich enough to retire then and there.

But that's just my point! Undertaker mentioned on a Muchmusic interview that he had a HUGE guaranteed offer from WCW sometime in the mid 90's, that could've made him a VERY rich man, but he wasn't sure what they were going to do for him push wise, he felt his character and career were better suited in the WWF.

I believe with 'Taker and his reputation, plus his reaction afterwards, he would've said something to Bret, even just as a friend.

I kind of meant for that match, but you're right here, I can't argue with your logic.

Good to know a few of my points get across...lol.

But this goes back to integrity. If in your marraige, which is infinitely more important then work, you don't have integrity I can't see you having it in your job. But he was contractually obligated to participate and follow the outcome set forth by Vince that he refused.

Again, I agree, as I try to conduct myself the same way no matter where I am. But Bret was human...and made some terrible mistakes! I don't doubt it. But there were times in his life where he did conduct himself well, and they were in the wrestling business. Because that was something that he took to heart that his father taught him!

Again...Bret didn't have a great marriage from the get go! And before you get angry...I'm NOT justifying his actions!!! It's just an explenation at least. Just because I'm explaining..doesen't mean I'm justifying!

I would honestly say that if he didn't have kids, he would've left her a lot sooner! Just my opinion...but again....not trying to justify it.

All I'm saying is he had a choice. Go thru with the angle, or elevate Rocky. After that choice is made follow through with it. If he got fired he still would have been a hot commodity and gotten plenty of money from WCW.

I watched an interview with D'Lo Brown a couple years ago, and he mentioned how paranoid Bret was about what Shawn would say. He even said Bret was right in Russo's face, and McMahon tried to convince him that Shawn wouldn't do anything stupid, and D'Lo said Bret let out a big "Yeah Right!".

Keep in mind, at that point, even though it was only 5 days before he made his decision, he still didn't wanna leave.

But Flair had more valid reasons, he put down a 25 grand deposit on the belt that wasn't returned, I just don't think he should have showed up on the competitions tv with it. Bret could have easily thrown the belt in the trash like Alundra Blayze did, and Vince needed security, in retrospect he probably spelled it out in Bret's contract. But just because it wasn't in writing doesn't mean Bret wasn't obligated to act honorably.

Yeah, I understand Flair's money, and the conflict with Jim Herd, but still!!! The fact of the matter is Flair did it, and he NEVER got along with Jim Herd! Bret had numerous problems with Vince, but never got into a fight with him, or anything like that until the leadup to Montreal.

Bret was very careful when it came to saving his money, I don't think he would've risked getting sued. He said Bischoff never even suggested anything like that. And Bret even said to Eric "Don't expect me to do what Alundra Blayze did". And according to Bret, Eric said back to him "The belt is not an issue, I just want you here by mid-December. I'm already tied up in so much legal bullshit with Titan sports right now, I really don't have the patience or time for it any more"

Possibly but not guarenteed, Vince needed assurances, which Bret couldn't provide, Eric has a reputation for shady business practices what makes you think he wouldn't lie?

Yes, you are half right. But he had shady business practices with ex-WWF wrestlers who more or less had an axe to grind!

Bret even said in a TV interview just after he left "Shawn can become the biggest star in the company for all I care now, but he had to make sure I was gone to do it. I don't know why he was so threatened. I knew this was going to be the guy who takes the top spot, and I was cool with that, but because of his attitude, I wasn't so keen on him anymore like I once was, I was actually hoping he would succeed while I was gone during 1996". And I do believe IMO Shawn was threatened.

See I didn't take Nash's comment that way, I was thinking taking drugs on purpose to fail drug tests he knew were coming so he could have time off. I don't exactly think taking major knee surgery is a nice relaxing vacation. Injuries have varying degrees of severity, so maybe 2004 was worse then 97. But again your scenerio is possible, I just don't think it's likely.

Shawn never actually had the surgery.

But it still would have been big money, just have a controversial ending to the Raw match with Shawn winning underhanded (he was a heel after all) and build it up for Bret's revenge on HBK at PPV. But your idea takes away from the Champ actually losing the belt. Bret needed to be beat, not swindled.

Ummm...where did I say that????

I said Shawn could win....that's it...I never said how.

But he chose to not be the bigger man when not doing business the right way. Which is losing the title the right way.

I think him losing the title during another show would've been fine for business.

 

[beetle717]

And Shawn calling the belt a piece of tin was helping???

Bret IMO by not dropping the "piece of tin" to Shawn in Montreal was helping the belt! Yeah, ratings went up after the screwjob, but I believe if there was no screwjob and Shawn was the champ, I don't think Ratings would've spiked huge or anything, at least until Steve got the belt, which I'm presuming was the plan anyway from the get go.

No the controversy was certainly the reason for the spike, but Austin is what maintained them after he won the belt. Calling it a piece of tin isn't helping no, but you still have to drop the title or else the next guy is viewed as not as good as you, or unable to beat you and that hurts the next champ as well as the prestige of the title because it means it's no longer on the best guy.

Bischoff had never given McMahon his word on anything!

But he did to Bret, I just don't believe Eric as an honest businessman, and think he could have lied to Bret to play off announcing the WWF champ is coming, after all he had no problem announcing results for Raw or challenging Vince to a fight on WCW PPV. Besides, he could have changed his mind.

I believe Bret and I even believe Eric when they say it wasn't going to be announced right away. Again, Bischoff wanted to handle Bret's arrival carefully (ironic eh?), and from what Bischoff has said before, he very well could've announced it on Nitro, but he figured with a better buildup, it could've drawn an even bigger TV audience.

That would have been better then having Hogan singing Oh Canada, but again we can't count on Eric to be honest in business. And in WCW the inmates ran the asylum. All it would have taken was a Hogan suggestion or Nash to say hey this is a better idea, and Eric could have changed his mind, or he could have been lying from the start. There's too many variables for blind trust.

IMO, i dunno this as a fact, but it's possible, I've mentioned before that Bret was ademant that he didn't lose in Montreal, that I'm sure he tried to re-assure Vince of the plans that are going to be taking place. And again, he only did that whole deal with Bischoff to keep things hush on the 10th because Vince wanted him too, and requested him too. And out of respect for his boss, he did so, because they wanted to protect the build into the Survivor Series PPV.

I'm not clear on what's not possible, that the announcement for the WWF champ coming would have been massive or that Eric could have been underhanded?

But that's just my point! Undertaker mentioned on a Muchmusic interview that he had a HUGE guaranteed offer from WCW sometime in the mid 90's, that could've made him a VERY rich man, but he wasn't sure what they were going to do for him push wise, he felt his character and career were better suited in the WWF.

I believe with 'Taker and his reputation, plus his reaction afterwards, he would've said something to Bret, even just as a friend.

Maybe, maybe not, he has a good rep, but we don't have an actual authorized source as to what kind of man Mark Calloway is, like we do for Bret and Shawn. I will make this clear, I don't thing taker's a bad man, I'm saying that we can't know till he gives us a glimpse himself.

Good to know a few of my points get across...lol.

Talk long enough on any subject and you'll find common ground.

Again, I agree, as I try to conduct myself the same way no matter where I am. But Bret was human...and made some terrible mistakes! I don't doubt it. But there were times in his life where he did conduct himself well, and they were in the wrestling business. Because that was something that he took to heart that his father taught him!

Again...Bret didn't have a great marriage from the get go! And before you get angry...I'm NOT justifying his actions!!! It's just an explenation at least. Just because I'm explaining..doesen't mean I'm justifying!

I would honestly say that if he didn't have kids, he would've left her a lot sooner! Just my opinion...but again....not trying to justify it.

Bad marraige not withstanding (I understand that, the last year of my marraige was hell, now we're divorced we can focus on my kid which is more important anyway) a good man is a good man personally and professionally, he will do what is right when he has a choice no matter what on most occassions. That doesn't track with the picture Bret himself paints for us when examining the character in his actions.

I watched an interview with D'Lo Brown a couple years ago, and he mentioned how paranoid Bret was about what Shawn would say. He even said Bret was right in Russo's face, and McMahon tried to convince him that Shawn wouldn't do anything stupid, and D'Lo said Bret let out a big "Yeah Right!".

Keep in mind, at that point, even though it was only 5 days before he made his decision, he still didn't wanna leave.

Another great reason to not do the angle, I'm just saying before saying shit about the product you're in make sure you're not in frame, is that too much to ask?

Yeah, I understand Flair's money, and the conflict with Jim Herd, but still!!! The fact of the matter is Flair did it, and he NEVER got along with Jim Herd! Bret had numerous problems with Vince, but never got into a fight with him, or anything like that until the leadup to Montreal.

Bret was very careful when it came to saving his money, I don't think he would've risked getting sued. He said Bischoff never even suggested anything like that. And Bret even said to Eric "Don't expect me to do what Alundra Blayze did". And according to Bret, Eric said back to him "The belt is not an issue, I just want you here by mid-December. I'm already tied up in so much legal bullshit with Titan sports right now, I really don't have the patience or time for it any more"

Then why not drop the belt, if Bret wasn't going to let Eric announce till the Belt was dropped then just get it over with

Yes, you are half right. But he had shady business practices with ex-WWF wrestlers who more or less had an axe to grind!

Bret even said in a TV interview just after he left "Shawn can become the biggest star in the company for all I care now, but he had to make sure I was gone to do it. I don't know why he was so threatened. I knew this was going to be the guy who takes the top spot, and I was cool with that, but because of his attitude, I wasn't so keen on him anymore like I once was, I was actually hoping he would succeed while I was gone during 1996". And I do believe IMO Shawn was threatened.

He probably was, much like Bret was threatend. That's what competition for top spot will do for you, it's natural. Bret's actions don't however match his words, he went and bashed the man's family in the sun column he wrote and trashed him to the world at large. Does that sound like someone who wishes him success. Oh and it was just as bad when Shawn did it. Both men lacked character at that point in time.

Shawn never actually had the surgery.

Source, and proof if you've got it, everything I've read said he had major surgery.

Ummm...where did I say that????

I said Shawn could win....that's it...I never said how.

Fair enough, all I was saying was Bret should have been the one pinned for the title, I don't like 4 ways where the champ doesn't lose but loses the title is all I was saying.

I think him losing the title during another show would've been fine for business.

But once it got to the last show before Eric CAN (not saying he would have, but wouldn't put it past him given his practices at the time) announce Bret's impending entry to the Company is risky and irresponsable for WWF, so Bret should have laid down. I'm still a big fan of my idea, have him lose it clean a Raw or 2 before the PPV and let him have a rematch that ends in a cluster. Just an opinon that I think could have avoided this.

 

[The Dungeon]

No the controversy was certainly the reason for the spike, but Austin is what maintained them after he won the belt. Calling it a piece of tin isn't helping no, but you still have to drop the title or else the next guy is viewed as not as good as you, or unable to beat you and that hurts the next champ as well as the prestige of the title because it means it's no longer on the best guy.

Remember...despite initial resistance...Bret was willing to drop it to Shawn despite the fact that WHERE he does it was in contreversey! And Shawn had already beaten Bret.

But he did to Bret, I just don't believe Eric as an honest businessman, and think he could have lied to Bret to play off announcing the WWF champ is coming, after all he had no problem announcing results for Raw or challenging Vince to a fight on WCW PPV. Besides, he could have changed his mind.

Eric wasn't honest when it came to defeating Vince...even Bret said he would've put it in writing to make sure Eric didn't screw things up for Vince. He stopped announcing the results of Raw after they got the upperhand in the wars.

And that joke of a challenge to Vince, WWF was starting to win and Eric definitely panicked. Many WCW employees have said so.

I believe Bret would've found a way for something to stop Eric from doing too much damage. Do I know that for sure...no of course not...just my opinion.

Maybe, maybe not, he has a good rep, but we don't have an actual authorized source as to what kind of man Mark Calloway is, like we do for Bret and Shawn. I will make this clear, I don't thing taker's a bad man, I'm saying that we can't know till he gives us a glimpse himself.

I'll take the words of the thousands and thousand of wrestlers who've talked about him, and said he's been flat out honest when push comes to shove.

That would have been better then having Hogan singing Oh Canada, but again we can't count on Eric to be honest in business. And in WCW the inmates ran the asylum. All it would have taken was a Hogan suggestion or Nash to say hey this is a better idea, and Eric could have changed his mind, or he could have been lying from the start. There's too many variables for blind trust.

Eric stated he only did that because he knew the screwjob was huge...found out it wasn't a work...and wanted to jump right on it!

I'm not clear on what's not possible, that the announcement for the WWF champ coming would have been massive or that Eric could have been underhanded?

Dunno if this is true or not...but I've heard rumblings Bret went back to Eric and asked for more time, and apparently Eric was fine with that. It would make sense, he was about to get Bret Hart for goodness sake.

Bad marraige not withstanding (I understand that, the last year of my marraige was hell, now we're divorced we can focus on my kid which is more important anyway) a good man is a good man personally and professionally, he will do what is right when he has a choice no matter what on most occassions. That doesn't track with the picture Bret himself paints for us when examining the character in his actions.

Maybe we can give our thoughts and judgements on what kind of a husband Bret was....but I see it as a man who was screwing up in one aspect of life, and not the others.

I mean...why try to make your life worse then being the same way in all aspects of life. I believe Bret knew what he was doing was dead wrong, but why would he go out of his way and make life for himself terrible in the WWF. I don't think he would after all the stuff Stu taught him.

Another great reason to not do the angle, I'm just saying before saying shit about the product you're in make sure you're not in frame, is that too much to ask?

Him saying that made for good conterversey and good TV, and they could work it in. I mean that's what it's all about right???

Then why not drop the belt, if Bret wasn't going to let Eric announce till the Belt was dropped then just get it over with

Bret was willing to drop it mere days after the Survivor Series. And even said he'd put over talent on the way out...losing..IN CANADA...too anyone in the Nation if they wanted to finish the angle (D'Lo also said there was a planned 8-Man Tag on Raw for Nov.10th in Ottawa, where the Nation was supposed to beat the Harts, and Bret do a job to The Rock...apparently Bret never argued or questioned it), he said he'd lose to Steve to settle there feud...or...even return the favor to 'Taker due to the fact that 'Taker had been putting Bret over since August.

He probably was, much like Bret was threatend. That's what competition for top spot will do for you, it's natural. Bret's actions don't however match his words, he went and bashed the man's family in the sun column he wrote and trashed him to the world at large. Does that sound like someone who wishes him success. Oh and it was just as bad when Shawn did it. Both men lacked character at that point in time.

Bret has never said he was threatened. He said by the time 1998 rolled around in WWF, he's probably start feuding with younger up and coming wrestlers, and helping them along. He just felt that he was going to be damaged goods by the time Wrestlemania XIV came around. He said he still wants to be credible, but yet at the same time, was willing to put ANY of the up and coming talent that was around at that time over. Bret even specifically said The Rock!

Again...I've read pretty much all of Bret's SUN articles, and never seen once where he said anything like that about Shawn's family! I think word got out to Shawn, somebody was stirring the Hornets nest, and Shawn got mis-informed without really looking into it! Bret never personally bashed Shawn's parents in any article I've read. He never said what Shawn claimed.

Source, and proof if you've got it, everything I've read said he had major surgery.

I always read conflicting reports...what did Shawn say in his book??? It's been a long time since I've read it! Do you know.

I've heard Shawn didn't need at all after a re-examination...can't remember where I heard it! Help me out here....

Fair enough, all I was saying was Bret should have been the one pinned for the title, I don't like 4 ways where the champ doesn't lose but loses the title is all I was saying.

But I never said that Bret didn't have to be pinned. He could very well have been...

And you wouldn't blow your biggest match in years on free TV after a year and a half of anticipation. But I never said Bret shouldn't be the one to get pinned....

But once it got to the last show before Eric CAN (not saying he would have, but wouldn't put it past him given his practices at the time) announce Bret's impending entry to the Company is risky and irresponsable for WWF, so Bret should have laid down. I'm still a big fan of my idea, have him lose it clean a Raw or 2 before the PPV and let him have a rematch that ends in a cluster. Just an opinon that I think could have avoided this.

I still believe Eric wanted this to work (despite end result), and was bent on going with the vignette, because he actually believe it would set ratings records, which Nitro was doing quite a bit during 1997.

But again...how do we know Bret didn't suggest that??? Again...i don't know if he did...I kind of agree with you saying that it didn't matter who goes in there with the belt...as long as it's a championship match it still has its hype. But I still say they shouldn't do one on one...If i had the book...Bret could do the 4-way...and put over Shawn however, and lose to him by pinfall.

 

[beetle717]

Remember...despite initial resistance...Bret was willing to drop it to Shawn despite the fact that WHERE he does it was in contreversey! And Shawn had already beaten Bret..

But where shouldn't matter, when does but not where, it's not like it was Bret's hometown for crying out loud. He owed it to the fans to do the job clean, bar none Bret should have dropped it before the announcment was legal, once SS rolled around and he still had the title he should have dropped it that night, it's the least he could do for the company that made him a star.

Eric wasn't honest when it came to defeating Vince...even Bret said he would've put it in writing to make sure Eric didn't screw things up for Vince. He stopped announcing the results of Raw after they got the upperhand in the wars.

And that joke of a challenge to Vince, WWF was starting to win and Eric definitely panicked. Many WCW employees have said so.

I believe Bret would've found a way for something to stop Eric from doing too much damage. Do I know that for sure...no of course not...just my opinion.

I don't see Bret having enough stroke as a new employee ot stop Eric from doing anything. And we don't know he wouldn't have wanted to. After all he wants to be remembered as the best ever, he even said he considers himself the best. We've already established the Hitman isn't exactly a class act, whose to say he wasn't in on some big plan.

I'll take the words of the thousands and thousand of wrestlers who've talked about him, and said he's been flat out honest when push comes to shove.

I tend to believe that too, but people can be fooled by a false face.

Eric stated he only did that because he knew the screwjob was huge...found out it wasn't a work...and wanted to jump right on it!

So he says, he's been known to lie, makes it hard to trust him don't you think?

Dunno if this is true or not...but I've heard rumblings Bret went back to Eric and asked for more time, and apparently Eric was fine with that. It would make sense, he was about to get Bret Hart for goodness sake.

If it's true, IF, can we really count on Eric to keep his word. On top of that Bret was known to be a liar as well. (again honesty and deciet will fill your whole life, you can't keep either confined to just one area)

Maybe we can give our thoughts and judgements on what kind of a husband Bret was....but I see it as a man who was screwing up in one aspect of life, and not the others.

I mean...why try to make your life worse then being the same way in all aspects of life. I believe Bret knew what he was doing was dead wrong, but why would he go out of his way and make life for himself terrible in the WWF. I don't think he would after all the stuff Stu taught him.

Dude, while I like you, I really do. That's just laughable. You're saying he sees the right choice and takes the wrong one anyway in on part of life, but has class in the rest of his dealings? If Stu was any kind of a man he would have taught his son first and foremost respect for women especially his wife, and that's before his first wrestling hold is taught. If you are willing to screw up something as important as your relationship with your wife by cheating on her, you're willing to go down just about any road that appeals for a moment.

Him saying that made for good conterversey and good TV, and they could work it in. I mean that's what it's all about right???

So you're saying Shawn wasn't out of line either then? It's all or nothing, either Shawn was a prick and Bret was an ass or they were both in line.

Bret was willing to drop it mere days after the Survivor Series. And even said he'd put over talent on the way out...losing..IN CANADA...too anyone in the Nation if they wanted to finish the angle (D'Lo also said there was a planned 8-Man Tag on Raw for Nov.10th in Ottawa, where the Nation was supposed to beat the Harts, and Bret do a job to The Rock...apparently Bret never argued or questioned it), he said he'd lose to Steve to settle there feud...or...even return the favor to 'Taker due to the fact that 'Taker had been putting Bret over since August.

But it's too late after SS. After all Eric is legal to open the announcment on Live TV the next night before Raw gets on the air, making it a huge blow to the WWF, he should have lost before or at SS to make it lessen that potential blow.

Bret has never said he was threatened. He said by the time 1998 rolled around in WWF, he's probably start feuding with younger up and coming wrestlers, and helping them along. He just felt that he was going to be damaged goods by the time Wrestlemania XIV came around. He said he still wants to be credible, but yet at the same time, was willing to put ANY of the up and coming talent that was around at that time over. Bret even specifically said The Rock!

Ok but that doesn't affect his unwillingness to put over the next guy to be champ HBK. But that's good for Bret. And being threatend is part of being top dog in any company it's natural wether he said it or not. Why do you think he had such a big beef with Hogan not putting him over.

Again...I've read pretty much all of Bret's SUN articles, and never seen once where he said anything like that about Shawn's family! I think word got out to Shawn, somebody was stirring the Hornets nest, and Shawn got mis-informed without really looking into it! Bret never personally bashed Shawn's parents in any article I've read. He never said what Shawn claimed.

I'll have to take your word on it, I havn't read any of his sun articles in a long time but do remember some cheapshots at HBK himself.

I always read conflicting reports...what did Shawn say in his book??? It's been a long time since I've read it! Do you know.

I've heard Shawn didn't need at all after a re-examination...can't remember where I heard it! Help me out here....

I read it the week it came out, haven't reread it since, don't remember what was said.

But I never said that Bret didn't have to be pinned. He could very well have been...

And you wouldn't blow your biggest match in years on free TV after a year and a half of anticipation. But I never said Bret shouldn't be the one to get pinned....

I know that, but you're match is ruined by Bret not wanting to lose to HBK in Canada.

I still believe Eric wanted this to work (despite end result), and was bent on going with the vignette, because he actually believe it would set ratings records, which Nitro was doing quite a bit during 1997.

But again...how do we know Bret didn't suggest that??? Again...i don't know if he did...I kind of agree with you saying that it didn't matter who goes in there with the belt...as long as it's a championship match it still has its hype. But I still say they shouldn't do one on one...If i had the book...Bret could do the 4-way...and put over Shawn however, and lose to him by pinfall.

A better ending then we got to be sure, but I'm partial to 1 on 1 matches, especially with 2 athletes the caliber of HBK and the Hitman.

Why because Shawn said he changed?? Give me a break?? Sorry there not perfect liek Mr. Almighty Christian boy Shawn Michaels! He thinks just because he's a man of God now, that makes him better than anyone else and his past faults should be forgotten, yet Bret's faults should forever be etched in stone!!

I'm not saying I don't understand Vince's concern...but you have to keep in mind, that Bret would never do that and I believe him when he says it. Because, within this business, he has not lied!!!. His personal life he's done some stupid things...some way beyond stupid! But you people are just straying off the subject here, to try to back up your theories, it's getting to be rediculous, not too mention annoying!!.

I don't remember HBK ever saying his slate should be wiped clean, he's admitted his wrongs, that's why it's easier to forgive him and look at him with respect. And can you point to where he said he was better than everybody else?

I'm going to ask a question, because I'm interested in your thought process. How is it you can say a man who lacks character, as you've even admitted Bret Hart the man does, a known liar, and wedding vows are a promise my friend more important than any job contract, then turn around and say anyone should give him the benifit of the doubt? After all didn't he obliterate that by not acting with just a little class in his life?

I'll tell you why the cheating is relevant to this conversation. It's the same reason prior convictions for armed robbery or murder are for a man on trial, it shows a pattern, in this case a pattern of deception. I am not comparing Bret to a thug or murderer, just illustrating an example. If he will lie to his wife, and cheating is lying because he broke his marraige vows, a woman who by all rights should be the most important person in his life and the mother of his children, who wouldn't he lie to? Where is that assurance that you can trust this man? I'm really interested in your answer here, just to see where we differ in thought processes. Thanks and Merry Xmas to all!!!!

 

[beetle717]

I agree y2jedge, but it was fuel for his ego to think he was a big canadian hero, that gave him a big enough head to think he should be able to jepordize the company in order to have a big candian win.

 

[The Dungeon]

But where shouldn't matter, when does but not where, it's not like it was Bret's hometown for crying out loud. He owed it to the fans to do the job clean, bar none Bret should have dropped it before the announcment was legal, once SS rolled around and he still had the title he should have dropped it that night, it's the least he could do for the company that made him a star.

What fans?? The fans of Shawn?? Because he didn't have very many at that point. And I'm sorry, don't give me this "they made him a star" bullshit, they gave him the opprotunity, and it was the fans that made it a success!!!! That's the way it'll always be...Vince hands off the football...they run with it...if they score a touchdown...fans will react!!

Keep in mind. How often is the WWF in Canada (a lot less now, they've avoided us like the plague since the Benoit thing, which is yet another moronic act from McMahon). Canadian wrestling fans were keeping that company head above water with this storyline! Bret was a hero to us here....it's the equivalent of a wrestler going overseas and winning in there home country. Bret's never requested to win in his home country until that night.

Earlier in the year, I saw him lose a triple threat match at the Skydome in T.O.

I don't see Bret having enough stroke as a new employee ot stop Eric from doing anything. And we don't know he wouldn't have wanted to. After all he wants to be remembered as the best ever, he even said he considers himself the best. We've already established the Hitman isn't exactly a class act, whose to say he wasn't in on some big plan.

No, you plus a bunch of Shawn marks (I'll grant you you're not one), have TRIED to establish he's not a class act, but we, plus many other wrestlers (besides Shawn & Hunter) say otherwise. Even ones who didn't agree with Bret's standing said in the lockeroom he conducted himself in a classy fashion.

I tend to believe that too, but people can be fooled by a false face.

Lets not question wether the character of the Undertaker or Mark Calloway is good or not, ok!

If it's true, IF, can we really count on Eric to keep his word. On top of that Bret was known to be a liar as well. (again honesty and deciet will fill your whole life, you can't keep either confined to just one area)

That has NOTHING to do with it, and in work it's different. Your bosses tell you DON'T BRING YOUR HOMELIFE TO WORK!. And Bret didn't do that...so when did he ever lie in the business! Not even Vince came up with that assanine theory, and I'm sure he had a feeling that most of his boys were doing that sort of thing! He's not oblivious.

So you're saying Shawn wasn't out of line either then? It's all or nothing, either Shawn was a prick and Bret was an ass or they were both in line.

Obviously you can't detect the sarcasm in my typing...

Bret was not an ass....he was merely reacting!

Shawn was both a prick and an ass!

Seriously...you like to pain Bret badly so much, that you'll use anything, that even saying he didn't like an angle makes him a bad person. What's your game man? And you thought MY one post is laughable??

But it's too late after SS. After all Eric is legal to open the announcment on Live TV the next night before Raw gets on the air, making it a huge blow to the WWF, he should have lost before or at SS to make it lessen that potential blow.

Hence why Bret wanted to do the farewell speech!

Sounds stupid too a lot of you, I know...but really, I wouldn't want to job to Shawn either and I stand by that!

Problem was...if anyone breached contract here...it was VINCE! Bret dropping that belt to Shawn was never put in writing! NEVER! So Bret wasn't breaching or ignoring his contract at all.

Dude, while I like you, I really do. That's just laughable. You're saying he sees the right choice and takes the wrong one anyway in on part of life, but has class in the rest of his dealings? If Stu was any kind of a man he would have taught his son first and foremost respect for women especially his wife, and that's before his first wrestling hold is taught. If you are willing to screw up something as important as your relationship with your wife by cheating on her, you're willing to go down just about any road that appeals for a moment.

Did you ever think maybe the relationship just wasn't important to Bret...and from the sounds of it, didn't seem to important to Julie either!

I honestly think they were only together for reasons that nobody should stay together! Bret never had the time, or couldn't make the effort to go through a divorce, I think he would've! He's the one who ended up leaving her.

And here's another thing, how do we know she was faithful...we don't! How do we know, while he was on the road doing what he did, she wasn't doing the same thing? I mean, there marriage seemed so hollow from what I read, I wouldn't be shocked if she went to someone for comfort while Bret was away all the time. Do I know if this is true? No of course not! Has Bret ever accused this? No he hasn't. But would it be shocking? Not at all.

Again...not justifications...

Just observations and theories.

Ok but that doesn't affect his unwillingness to put over the next guy to be champ HBK. But that's good for Bret. And being threatend is part of being top dog in any company it's natural wether he said it or not. Why do you think he had such a big beef with Hogan not putting him over.

Hulk's reasons were stupid! Bret's wasn't IMO.

Both totally different too.

I read it the week it came out, haven't reread it since, don't remember what was said.

We'll have to get back on that one day...

I know that, but you're match is ruined by Bret not wanting to lose to HBK in Canada.

The Nov.3rd "Raw" wasn't in Canada.

A better ending then we got to be sure, but I'm partial to 1 on 1 matches, especially with 2 athletes the caliber of HBK and the Hitman.

Whoops I should've specified...I didn't mean Survivor Series...I meant the "Raw" the week before. No...SS should still be 1 on 1.

I don't remember HBK ever saying his slate should be wiped clean, he's admitted his wrongs, that's why it's easier to forgive him and look at him with respect. And can you point to where he said he was better than everybody else?

Umm, well do you really think he's just gonna come out and say it?? Obvs. not.

Sometimes he seems that way to me the way he comes off! IMO.

I'm going to ask a question, because I'm interested in your thought process. How is it you can say a man who lacks character, as you've even admitted Bret Hart the man does, a known liar, and wedding vows are a promise my friend more important than any job contract, then turn around and say anyone should give him the benifit of the doubt? After all didn't he obliterate that by not acting with just a little class in his life?

Perhaps it may seem like I'm grasping straws...but how do we know his wife wasn't doing the same thing?

Neither you nor me were there! But it's possible..

I'll tell you why the cheating is relevant to this conversation. It's the same reason prior convictions for armed robbery or murder are for a man on trial, it shows a pattern, in this case a pattern of deception. I am not comparing Bret to a thug or murderer, just illustrating an example. If he will lie to his wife, and cheating is lying because he broke his marraige vows, a woman who by all rights should be the most important person in his life and the mother of his children, who wouldn't he lie to? Where is that assurance that you can trust this man? I'm really interested in your answer here, just to see where we differ in thought processes. Thanks and Merry Xmas to all!!!!

Again...obvioulsy Julie wasn't important to him!

Now if I were in Bret's shoes...I'd get the divorce, and be on my way!

And as far as this "shows a pattern" sign, those types of people you named, some of which, have paid there debt to society. And really who are we to judge them. Sure, we can have our opinions and state them on boards like this, or our own blogs or whatnot, but do we really have a monopoly on the truth?

I'm just stating opinions in my posts...I'm just a man, I could be wrong about the things I say in every day life be it at work, at home or to my girlfriend..

But yes..to answer your question...I would've done things a lot differently If I were Bret.

Your opinion is your opinion...I'm not here to change your mind!

But when the owner of the company and the mans boss himself feels, that there personal life doesen't play into there job, and as a boss it don't matter to him, that's one thing that makes it irrelevant.

Look at Edge & Hardy! Even Matt Hardy himself has said, on a PERSONAL standpoint...he'll never trust him again...he said from a business standpoint...he likes having matches with him, he likes working with him, he trusts him in the ring, and has said he hasn't tried anything stupid and he also says when the time comes he'll work with him again!!!

Hope everybody had a good christmas...and Happy New Year to all.

 

[donutman]

Bret Hart deserved what was coming to him. When you leave, you job on the way out. That is how it always is. He's a big baby for not wanting to do the job. I read people said he just didn't want to job to HBK. So what? It doesn't matter who you have to job to, you do it. Think like the Owner of a Wrestling company. Bret was going to the competition. You think Vince would let him win his last match with the title?! Please, I don't believe all this "he would have came back the next night and dropped the belt" crap. He wouldn't be under contract with WWE no more so he doesn't have to show. Plus, that is when his WCW contract started.

Bret wanted the belt because he has an ego the size of Texas. Who cares about losing in your home town. THIS IS WRESTLING. HELLLLO!?! W/L records don't mean a damn thing. Hell, title belts don't even mean much in the world of scripted entertainment. Bret took wrestling too personally and turn it into real life. Sorry Bret, but wrestling was and will always be a WORK.

 

[hbkbesttwa]

shawn did what the boss told him to do or he would get fired it was in respect for the buisness. every one knew bret was going to wcw because of the money. bret was unprofessional and didnt want to drop the belt to micheals and wanted to go to raw on monday and forfit the belt and leave to wcw.

 

[JeremyVersionOne]

Montreal shouldn't have ever happened, EVER. I'm finishing up Bret Hart's biography, and with all the ideas thrown out about how to get the belt off Bret before he left (one idea was to drop it to Stone Cold), there was no reason to go that direction.

 

[jtov05]

I think everybody's at fault here ... Vince, Bret, and Shawn. Bret because he was done with the company and should have just dropped the belt to Shawn. Who cares if he didn't like Shawn or if it was in Canada? The whole world is watching anyway. Vince was forced into a situation where he couldn't have Bret walk out with the WWE Title and have him in WCW wearing the belt. It was the wrong thing to do, but in the end it had to be done. And it made Vince look like the bad guy which is where the company was heading in the attutiude era, so i think this is the event that gave birth to the Mr. McMahon character. Shawn was just at the wrong place at the wrong time and was the one that had to pull the trigger. He has tried to apologize to Bret, but Bret looks like he will carry the grudge forever. 10 years after the Montreal Screwjob, we still remember the most infamous event in WWE history. I think everybody has grown smarter and the fans just need to move on. Especially the Canadian fans. LOL It's been 10 years now. Get over it!

 

[The Dungeon]

Bret Hart deserved what was coming to him. When you leave, you job on the way out. That is how it always is. He's a big baby for not wanting to do the job. I read people said he just didn't want to job to HBK. So what? It doesn't matter who you have to job to, you do it. Think like the Owner of a Wrestling company. Bret was going to the competition. You think Vince would let him win his last match with the title?! Please, I don't believe all this "he would have came back the next night and dropped the belt" crap. He wouldn't be under contract with WWE no more so he doesn't have to show. Plus, that is when his WCW contract started.

Bret didn't request to win...have you not read these posts???

Somebody's been watching Shawn's DVD and believing Hunter's revisionist history....Survivor Series was on Nov.9.1997...Bret handed in his 30 notice on Nov.1st.....now I'm no math expert, but I'm pretty sure that means Bret still had time on his contract....do your reasearch pal!! You're way off.

Bret wanted the belt because he has an ego the size of Texas. Who cares about losing in your home town. THIS IS WRESTLING. HELLLLO!?! W/L records don't mean a damn thing. Hell, title belts don't even mean much in the world of scripted entertainment. Bret took wrestling too personally and turn it into real life. Sorry Bret, but wrestling was and will always be a WORK.

Bret has admittedly said maybe he was too old school for his own good at times! But buddy, when you wanna keep your drawing power up when people still have big plans for you, as an independant contractor, you have to look out for yourself at times!!

So instead of trying to dictate how Bret should feel about the business, maybe you should try thinking what he was thinking!!

shawn did what the boss told him to do or he would get fired it was in respect for the buisness. every one knew bret was going to wcw because of the money. bret was unprofessional and didnt want to drop the belt to micheals and wanted to go to raw on monday and forfit the belt and leave to wcw.

Yeah, because Shawn always conducted business profesionally!! Give me a break, respect wasn't in Shawn's vocab!

And if Bret was going to WCW for the money, he would've left in 1996, when tey offered him teh same deal! Man I really feel like I'm repeating myself here!

And the forefitting was a suggestion...not a demand....Bret has said he was open to other options, but Vince never gave him any! And Vince never said "no" to that option! He just screwed him instead...

think everybody's at fault here ... Vince, Bret, and Shawn. Bret because he was done with the company and should have just dropped the belt to Shawn. Who cares if he didn't like Shawn or if it was in Canada? The whole world is watching anyway. Vince was forced into a situation where he couldn't have Bret walk out with the WWE Title and have him in WCW wearing the belt. It was the wrong thing to do, but in the end it had to be done. And it made Vince look like the bad guy which is where the company was heading in the attutiude era, so i think this is the event that gave birth to the Mr. McMahon character. Shawn was just at the wrong place at the wrong time and was the one that had to pull the trigger. He has tried to apologize to Bret, but Bret looks like he will carry the grudge forever. 10 years after the Montreal Screwjob, we still remember the most infamous event in WWE history. I think everybody has grown smarter and the fans just need to move on. Especially the Canadian fans. LOL It's been 10 years now. Get over it!

Wow...that's funny...

It's not us who's having trouble getting over it! Who keeps rehashing it over and over on TV? It's teh WWE!! THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVEN'T MOVED ON!!!

beetle...please come back...you were such a worthy opponent!!

 

[hbk316]

THE GUY WAS LEAVING THE COMPANY. WHO CARES WHERE U LOSE I JUST THINK BRET WAS BEING A SELFISH BABY AND VINCE PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE. you can argue who is better, or who did more for the company for ever. the fact of the matter is he was leaving, and hbk was not. there was no reason for bret to leave with the belt, he had no reason to question dropping the belt, he was being selfish.

 

[bambam]

THE GUY WAS LEAVING THE COMPANY. WHO CARES WHERE U LOSE I JUST THINK BRET WAS BEING A SELFISH BABY AND VINCE PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE. you can argue who is better, or who did more for the company for ever. the fact of the matter is he was leaving, and hbk was not. there was no reason for bret to leave with the belt, he had no reason to question dropping the belt, he was being selfish.

I Agree 100%. I was, and still am, a huge Hart fan. I thought he was one of the very best ever. But, when your leaving a company, you are susposed to put over the other guy. ITS A RULE OF WRESTLING! Raven never lost to Dreamer for 5 YEARS! The day he leaves for WCW, Dreamer gets the victory! With Hart, He wanted to just show he could do what he wanted. Watching the story behind the story, Michaels says it best when he says, "He (Bret Hart) started going into business for himself." I LOATHE (Spelling?) Vince, but think he had ever right to do what he did.

 

[WTF2WWE4]

My Take- I personally believe that too many people are trying to take sides. The side of HBK, or the side of Bret Hart. Thats not what it was about then, its not what it is about now. I am a HUGE HBK fan, without question, Bret Hart--not so much.But the reason for liking 1 and disliking the other have nothing to do with the Montreal Screw Job. Now, myself-disliking Bret, i TRULY belive that Bret WOULD have handed the belt over the next night on raw...Bret WAS old school-had no illwill feelings toward Vince and i believe would have dropped the belt day after SS. HOWEVER...Try to view it from Vinces POV. I would be willing to bet that deep down Vince thought Bret WOULD go out the right way, and would have handed over the belt the following night. But as a business man, you have to cover all angles-you cant leave any "what-ifs" on the table. And NO ONE can say for SURE that Bret would have infact dropped the belt on Raw the next night. VINCE did what was right for the company for several reasons...Reason 1---the obvious, if MSJ never happens Bret could have very well dissapeared with the belt and it would have made Vince and the WWE look ridiculius...Reason 2---Bret was leaving..PERIOD..It only makes sense to lose to Michaels, who especially at this time was the new face of the company. It would be SO bad for the WWE if Bret beats Shawn because the New face of WCW just beat the BEST the WWE has to offer????!!! hell no! It was something that undeniably had to be done, and it is such a huge event in the history of wrestling entertainment, and you know for the simple fact that 10 years later we all can talk about it as if it was yesterday!

 

[HBK-aholic]

Montreal shouldn't have ever happened, EVER.

I think everyone is in agreement that it shouldn't have happened, and Vince wouldn't have been forced into doing it if Hart had just dropped the belt like he was asked to when on the way out of the company.

I'm finishing up Bret Hart's biography,

This is simply something you cannot take an reliable information from. You honeslty think reading either Shawn's or Bret's biographies is a good way to understand the screwjob? Both are completely biased towards the other.

and with all the ideas thrown out about how to get the belt off Bret before he left (one idea was to drop it to Stone Cold), there was no reason to go that direction.

Well if Hart had just dropped the belt in the first place nothing would have happened. Why should WWE creative have to change all their plans just because one man is acting unprofessional?

 

[deadpool]

Im on brets side for this one.he was a great wrestler i grew up watchin him but for vince to do that after all those years is unforgivible.bret worked his ass off in that ring givin his all.u saw the look on brets face after that bell rang when the match was over shocked.i would be to.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Im on brets side for this one.he was a great wrestler i grew up watchin him

A lot of people agree with you, when saying Hart was a good wrestler, possibly great. Most people enjoyed him in the ring and saw the talent he had. But this let out a whole other side to Hart, that people didn't like.

but for vince to do that after all those years is unforgivible.bret worked his ass off in that ring givin his all

Yes, he did. For years. As did Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Chris Benoit, to name a few. But that gives him NO RIGHT to disrespect the business the way he did, and to think he was above WWE creative and the company itself. How did he not expect to lose to Shawn, the next guy on the list? The guy the company was pushing to be the next champion and face of the company.

u saw the look on brets face after that bell rang when the match was over shocked.i would be to.

Everyone was shocked at first, because no one knew the backstage reasons. I laughed when I saw Harts face afterwards, because he brought it all on himself. He honestly seemed to think he was above the tradition of dropping the belt on his way out.
When everyone found out it had to happen because Hart had disobeyed Vince, suddenly a lot of people realised that it was Harts fault and that he had it coming to him.