I can't blame Vince for this, at all. Bret's refusal to lose the belt to HBK is what led to the incident. Keep in mind, Montreal happened AFTER Alundra Blaze/Medusa Micelli was shown on Nitro, throwing the WWF Women's title in a garbage can. Why did that happen? Because Vince didn't make her drop the belt before her contract ran out. Now we have Bret Hart's contract running out, and he wasn't the Women's champion, he was their WORLD champion. There is no way in hell that Vince was going to take that chance, so, the title change was scheduled. Bret was worried about losing in Canada? BIG FREAKING DEAL, Bret. I thought you were supposed to be a professional. Could Vince have handled it a little differently? Sure. But, the situation should never have happened, and wouldn't have, had Bret done the right thing. All Bret had to do was do the honors. If I left a company, could I walk out there with my computer, my computer chair, etc? Absolutely not! The WWF title was the property of the WWF, not Bret Hart. He was leaving, its his duty to turn in all company property, including the belt. Instead, he let his ego dictate his actions, he let his personal feelings get in the way of his job. His job was to drop the belt to HBK before he left. He refused to do it, so Vince did it for him. Bret's reputation would have been far better off had he simply done it willingly. Instead, he comes off as a selfish, arrogant spoiled brat.
J
jmizzerskillz
Guest
If bret hart is a baby, then hbk is the biggest bitch in wrestling. Bret was screwed and that's that, hart and vince had a deal and vince changed it without bret knowing. That's the defintion of a screwjob. Vince lost the one champion that gave his company any credibility. Its a trend he has.....he did it to bret, benoit, guerrero, and angle. Anyone without a mega persona or anyone that can get over on their own he screws. Example......kurt angle being the guy to send to the other show when someone gets hurt, and benoit and guerrero only being champion once. People can say all they want about hbk and how it wasn't his fault but he's doing now the same thing that bret did. Hbk threw a baby tantrum when losing to hogan and hogan skipped on a rematch......and besides without hart, hbk wouldn't be shit.
Wait, wait, what's that, could it be...Ric Flair with the WCW championship, on WWF TV, say it isn't so. Let's drop the Alundra Blaze crap right away, it's such a weak argument and truly people have drunk the McMahon Kool-Aid on this subject. The Alundra Blaze thing was a retaliation for the WWF parading WCW's champion around on their programming back in 1991. Everything that Vince McMahon supposedly was afraid Bret Hart was going to do, Vince already had Ric Flair do to WCW in 1991.
Quit thinking that Vince McMahon is some champion of the people, the guy is an asshole. He is a multi millionaire business man that did everything in his power to run other companies out of business and become the sole figure in professional wrestling. People have bought into this crap that he was the little guy fighting off the evil Billionaire Ted and winning the war, so stop believing that crap that Bret was going to stick it to McMahon. Bret Hart had the respect of everyone in that locker room, minus the Kliq and Harris Boys. That's it. For people to believe Vince McMahon when he says he thought Bret was going to WCW with his title, it's just plain stupid.
Bret Hart maybe an asshole outside of the ring, but the man was all about the business through and through when he was around the ring. As said a million times before, don't give the guy creative control as you are pushing him out the door. Vince McMahon dug his own grave on this one.
Thats not the WCW belt, its the NWA belt, WCW just used it. And, in the NWA, in order to be the champion, you had to put down a $25,000 deposit on it, as security. When he was fired from WCW, Flair took the belt with him, because the NWA refused to refund his deposit. Technically, as long as the NWA refused to pay it, the belt belonged to Flair, and he could do anything with it he wished. The WWF did not require security deposits on the belt, the belt always stayed the explicit property of the company. If I remember right, WCW unsuccessfully sued Flair for the belt, but eventually conceded, and they gave him back the $25,000 they owed him, which is all Flair wanted. Until he got his money back, Flair owned that belt, and could do with it as he pleased. Hart didn't own the WWF Championship in any way.
So, completely different situation. Perhaps if you had done a little research, you would have known that.
So, completely different situation. Perhaps if you had done a little research, you would have known that.
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so brets contract with the wcw didn't start till the 5th dec. cool. the whole situation could have been easily avoided. the original plan for the match was a run in from both hbk and bret's respected factions, they could have gone through with this plan and the next night on raw hbk could have staked his claim for a rematch, then ken shamrock who had already made both men previously tap out 2 the ankle lock, stake his claim sayin he deserves it and all that. then the undertaker sayin he lost it in unfair circumstances @ s.slam 97 and the at badd blood he was screwed out of a title shot by kane. then have a fatal 4 way match for the world title. this is the scenario i came up with. hbk and bret down outside the ring. ref down. taker about to finish off shamrock n tryin 2 revive ref but outcomes kane tombstones him hbk crawls in and pins shamrock. new wwf champ. bret says his little farewell speech. out he goes to wcw. Therefore bret doesnt have 2 be agrieved cus his last match in wwf he was pinned by the man he hates the most . Problem solved.
It seems there was one rule for the kliq and one rule for the rest and vince didnt like bret for almost expressing himself like he did also the alundra blaze incident never helped but that would never of happened with bret.
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so brets contract with the wcw didn't start till the 5th dec. cool. the whole situation could have been easily avoided. the original plan for the match was a run in from both hbk and bret's respected factions, they could have gone through with this plan and the next night on raw hbk could have staked his claim for a rematch, then ken shamrock who had already made both men previously tap out 2 the ankle lock, stake his claim sayin he deserves it and all that. then the undertaker sayin he lost it in unfair circumstances @ s.slam 97 and the at badd blood he was screwed out of a title shot by kane. then have a fatal 4 way match for the world title. this is the scenario i came up with. hbk and bret down outside the ring. ref down. taker about to finish off shamrock n tryin 2 revive ref but outcomes kane tombstones him hbk crawls in and pins shamrock. new wwf champ. bret says his little farewell speech. out he goes to wcw. Therefore bret doesnt have 2 be agrieved cus his last match in wwf he was pinned by the man he hates the most . Problem solved.
It seems there was one rule for the kliq and one rule for the rest and vince didnt like bret for almost expressing himself like he did also the alundra blaze incident never helped but that would never of happened with bret.
Undercurrent
Occasional Pre-Show
I've evaluated this situation from both sides and I can't help but support Bret. Vince was the one who offered him a 20 year contract (which Bret accepted) only to later tell him I can't afford you so therefore you should move onto WCW. In terms of leaving, Bret didn't really have much of a choice and aside from that I feel Vince was very disrespectful towards him by suddenly changing his mind.
Bret Hart had been the most loyal worker within that company and I full heartedly believe that he had the right to stand up for himself and say "No I won't drop in to Michaels in Canada." The fact of the matter is, Bret had creative control over his character and had to right to fight against it. How many times has Hogan or Triple H done so? If you were working with a company and you were one of the best and most loyal employees for 13 years, busted your ass off and were respected by your peers and clients, then wouldn't you have the right to have a say in what they are doing with your career? I agree when many of you claim Vince had the right to do what he did as ultimately he's the boss...I'll just never fully agree with the decision.
The truth is we'll never fully understand the entire situation so none of us are experts on it. We have the right to explore what occured but we really don't have the right to judge unless we have all the details which we never will.
On a side note in regards to Shawn Michaels. I remember hearing about a rumour where he refused to drop the title to Austin only to have Taker step in and say..."If he doesn't drop the title...I'll drop him." The Undertaker respected and admired Bret while despite the accomplishments, Shawn will never be respected as one of the boys.
I'll always respect and admire Bret....one of my heroes until the very end.
Bret Hart had been the most loyal worker within that company and I full heartedly believe that he had the right to stand up for himself and say "No I won't drop in to Michaels in Canada." The fact of the matter is, Bret had creative control over his character and had to right to fight against it. How many times has Hogan or Triple H done so? If you were working with a company and you were one of the best and most loyal employees for 13 years, busted your ass off and were respected by your peers and clients, then wouldn't you have the right to have a say in what they are doing with your career? I agree when many of you claim Vince had the right to do what he did as ultimately he's the boss...I'll just never fully agree with the decision.
The truth is we'll never fully understand the entire situation so none of us are experts on it. We have the right to explore what occured but we really don't have the right to judge unless we have all the details which we never will.
On a side note in regards to Shawn Michaels. I remember hearing about a rumour where he refused to drop the title to Austin only to have Taker step in and say..."If he doesn't drop the title...I'll drop him." The Undertaker respected and admired Bret while despite the accomplishments, Shawn will never be respected as one of the boys.
I'll always respect and admire Bret....one of my heroes until the very end.
Haha, what a completely idiotic post. How in the hell does that justify Ric Flair and the WWF parading the belt around on TV? Vince saw the opportunity and he used it. What type of ethics of wrestling did that display. Vince had Flair, did he really need to parade the belt. No, it was, I'm Vince McMahon, and I have your world champion and the belt. It's the same exact scenario that Vince tried to sell everyone the Bret Hart was going to do, except that Bret Hart actually has some ethics when it comes to the business, and Flair will do anything to pay off his ex wives.
That just shows you missed the important part...Alundra Blaze showed up on Nitro with a WWF belt, that Vince McMahon owned, not her, and threw it in the trash. Yes, he paraded the big gold belt earlier, but since Flair had not received his deposit, it was HIS BELT, to do with as he pleased. It was NOT Bret's belt to do with as he pleased. As soon as WCW fired Ric Flair, while he was champion, and refused to pay him his deposit on the belt back, it STOPPED being an active belt for them. Basically, they fired the belt too.
There also wasn't a Monday night war going on between RAW and Nitro at the time that Flair showed up with the belt that he legally owned. But really, all of this is besides the point. Bret Hart was told to drop the belt to HBK, and he refused. That alone puts Hart in the wrong. Wrestlers are employees, they are supposed to do what Vince tells them to do. Maybe you think wrestling is real, I don't know...but, its not. The belt is nothing but a prop. Champions are champions because of storylines, not because they truly are the best at their craft. Wrestling is not a sport, its a TV show. Bret Hart lost sight of this truth. He thought that wearing the belt actually meant he was the best of the best, and that if he dropped it to Shawn Michaels, it would be soiled somehow...ITS JUST A PROP used on a TV show. When Knight Rider was canceled, did David Hasselhoff refuse to give back the keys to KITT? Of course not, it was the property of the TV studio. It wasn't his, personally. They let him drive it on the show, just like the WWF let Bret walk around with the WWF title...but, unlike with Flair, Bret had no claims of ownership regarding the belt. Bret Hart is an egotistical ass. Vince McMahon is too, don't get me wrong. But, in this instance, Vince did nothing wrong by rigging the match. Its wrestling, its not a sport. Its his company, if he wants to end the match that way, it is his right to do so. People that think Bret somehow got screwed seem to think that the match was legitimate. How can a wrestler get screwed from a match, where the entire business is scripted? As the owner of the WWF, why is it somehow immoral for the owner to change the match ending? Isn't that his right, as owner of the company? WRESTLING IS SCRIPTED. Bret refused to go along with the script, Vince ensured that the scripted winner won. As is his job.
There also wasn't a Monday night war going on between RAW and Nitro at the time that Flair showed up with the belt that he legally owned. But really, all of this is besides the point. Bret Hart was told to drop the belt to HBK, and he refused. That alone puts Hart in the wrong. Wrestlers are employees, they are supposed to do what Vince tells them to do. Maybe you think wrestling is real, I don't know...but, its not. The belt is nothing but a prop. Champions are champions because of storylines, not because they truly are the best at their craft. Wrestling is not a sport, its a TV show. Bret Hart lost sight of this truth. He thought that wearing the belt actually meant he was the best of the best, and that if he dropped it to Shawn Michaels, it would be soiled somehow...ITS JUST A PROP used on a TV show. When Knight Rider was canceled, did David Hasselhoff refuse to give back the keys to KITT? Of course not, it was the property of the TV studio. It wasn't his, personally. They let him drive it on the show, just like the WWF let Bret walk around with the WWF title...but, unlike with Flair, Bret had no claims of ownership regarding the belt. Bret Hart is an egotistical ass. Vince McMahon is too, don't get me wrong. But, in this instance, Vince did nothing wrong by rigging the match. Its wrestling, its not a sport. Its his company, if he wants to end the match that way, it is his right to do so. People that think Bret somehow got screwed seem to think that the match was legitimate. How can a wrestler get screwed from a match, where the entire business is scripted? As the owner of the WWF, why is it somehow immoral for the owner to change the match ending? Isn't that his right, as owner of the company? WRESTLING IS SCRIPTED. Bret refused to go along with the script, Vince ensured that the scripted winner won. As is his job.
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Its the principle of the matter. No one knew that the champion legally owned the belt. All the fans saw was the WCW Title on WWF TV. Vince knew this, yet still whined when they did it to him.
You keep dodging CA's point that Bret Hart had creative control. Vince giving Hart creative control and then not acting on it put Vince in the wrong. The fact is and always will be that there were far more reasonable options, you've just been lead by the WWE to think that this had to happen.
Bret had reasonable creative control over his character, not the belt. He was an exployee and should have done what he was told. By choosing not to, he became just as bad as Michaels and a hypocrite.
As for Vince, he's a legendary asshole and should definitely take a large slice of the blame, however, Bret crossed him first.
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
This is one of the worst arguments I have read in a while. Quit comparing wrestling to any other place of employment. You act like Bret was the guy mopping the floors in back. Bret Hart was the best company man the WWF ever had, and deserved to go out better. Vince gave him creative control in his contract so that Bret could veto an idea and the two could come up with another one. Bret may have made things harder, but he wasn't as out of line as Vince.
jericho3150
Occasional Pre-Show
I certainly disagree with that .. Taker and Shawn always stayed loyal to WWF. And when they came down to it they never refused to do what Vince asked. You can't call bret the best company man when he took the money and left for WCW and refused to do his job at the same time..
No.. Vince gave him reasonable creative control so Vince couldn't severly bury Hart on the way out. Most times when a wrestler was leaving for another company they performed a month of nothing but jobs... Vince didn't do this to Bret,, all he wanted was his belt back..
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Are you not the one who was telling everyone to read the Meltzer report? The one that says that it was Vince telling Bret he couldn't afford him and he should take the WCW offer, you know, the one he turned down to stay with WWF for less money.
Which is what he did anyway. A submission loss in front of one of your biggest fanbases with your signature move, it doesn't get much worse. I'm sick of everyone bringing up the "Vince wanted the belt back argument." The contract dates nullify your agrgument.
A submission loss to one the greatest wrestlers ever? Yeah...thats burying him. Give me a break. Maybe if he had made him lose the belt to Duke the Dumpster Droese or Droz or something, but how can anyone be buried by a loss to Shawn Michaels? There is no shame at all in losing to HBK!
Slim, I don't personally own a notarized copy of the contract...do you? How do you know what the dates were? Were you present when the contract was signed? Are you one of Bret's lawyers that reviewed it? Or are you relying on info that you got from some unreliable hack?
Slim, I don't personally own a notarized copy of the contract...do you? How do you know what the dates were? Were you present when the contract was signed? Are you one of Bret's lawyers that reviewed it? Or are you relying on info that you got from some unreliable hack?
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Just relying on the source that your partner has been refering to since the start of this debate. Its been universally said that the contract for Bret's WCW run started Dec 1st. He also had a verbal agreement with Bishoff that they would not announce his signing.
There is no "shame" in losing to HBK, but a loss with the Sharpshooter, give me a break. I could think of five scenerios that involve Hart dying that look better than that.
jericho3150
Occasional Pre-Show
Actually if you read the Meltzer report which I think was bias.. but it was edoresed by Bret... It actually tells you that Bret was told that Vince couldn't afford him. Bret contacted WCW.. WWF came back at Bret and said that things have changed and now we can pay you.. WWF thought that the crisis was averted and that Bret was staying in WWF.. Then Bret got a call from WCW offering him more money and Bret decieded to leave..
But it didn't need to be a submission lose.. It could have have been DX screwing interferring and costing Bret the belt.. or Shawn just cheating to win.. It didn't have to be a clean win.. They just needed to get the belt off of him.
And I notice you seem to be tired of many arguements that don't aggree with your emotional responces.. The contract dates don't nulify anything.. Brets cntract with WCW said that Bischoff could not announce signing Bret until November 10th which is the day after Survivor Series. Vince was not going to let WCW go out on Nitro and announce that WCW had signed WWF's current champion..
It's information provided by someone else that Slim is using. I've read the Meltzer report, and Hart said it was pretty accurate. I'm not particularly a giant fan of Meltzer, but if Hart says its fine, that's fine by me. Or wait, should I listen to JR say on the HBK DVD taht Bret decided he wanted to leave and all that crap.
And as far as losing to Shawn Michaels. No big deal, but to lose to a submission hold when Michaels has an aresnal of how many submission holds? What is Shawn Michaels signature submission finisher, oh wait, he doesn't have one. Shawn Michaels has never been a submission wrestler, sure, he knows the moves, but it's never, never been a part of his full time move set. HBK never works a body part to lock in a figure foru or anything, HBK is and has been for a dozen years, all about Sweet Chin Music. So all of a sudden you want Bret Hart, who never submits, to submit in Montreal against someone he doesn't care for, and who the locker room couldn't stand either. And again, there is no shame to losing to HBK...now. A lot of guys in th eback could not stand the guy and couldn't stand him.
I for one think everyone needs to just shut the hell up about Bret Hart being this godlike saint. That includes you my friend Shocky.
This issue is argued over so much, and its always the same arguments. The problem is, one of the arguments makes perfect sense, the other is based off of some imaginary idea of Bret losing in Canada as "destroying his credibility" (yeah I'm sure everyone would've immediately not cared anymore about Bret Hart after losing to someone he's already lost to many times).
Bret was selfish. So he got what was coming to him. Get over it people. Vince McMahon is a legendary asshole, we all know this, but this situation wasn't his fault. This was the ONLY DAMN choice he had.
What else would you have him do? Let Bischoff go on Nitro the day after Survivor Series and announce the WWF CHAMPION WAS COMING TO WCW? That would've made the WWF look like total shit. Thats a pure business decision that he had to made, and anyone with even a shred of business savvy would understand that in a god damn second.
But no, everyone has to go one emotions and because Bret is such a great "company" man (yet refuses to lose to the biggest star in the company on his way out). Bret was a great company man. WAS. Until he decided he was bigger then the WWF, and decided he wasn't going to honor one of the oldest traditions in wrestling. When you're on your way out, you put other people over. Thats how it's always been, thats how it always will be. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't RVD do that last year? Lose to everyone in a 10 mile radius in his last month before leaving?
But Bret Hart decided he was better then the WWF, that they owed HIM something (which is fucking laughable considering Hart would be a nobody without the WWF) and that he couldn't let his "character" look bad by losing in his home COUNTRY. No, not even his home city, but his home country. Does anyone else not see how fucking ludicrous that is? Like if you wrestle in your own country, that makes you invincible? Ridiculious.
Bret Hart decided to be a complete fuckin' douchebag. Everyone who's saying "But why did he have to lose in the sharpshooter?"...umm...he didn't HAVE TO. That could've gone down a million other ways, like someone said before me, DX could've interfered, it didn't even have to be a clean win. But no, Bret thought far too highly of himself, and that he was bigger and more important then the WWF was. He deserved what he got. There was no other choice, absolutely no other choice. If you think you'd of done something different, guess what? You probably would've led the WWF out of business because WCW would've had the WWF's own World Champion signed the next night. You thought Alundra Blayze dropping the Womens Title into the garbage was bad? Imagine what happens to your credibility when that's your World Title being dropped in the garbage. WCW would've had so much momentum, they might've won the war.
I'm not saying HBK is innocent, or McMahon isn't an asshole. Both were/are politickers at their finest. But so was Bret Hart, so stop pretending he was Jesus H. Christ himself, when he did one of the most selfish things I've ever heard of a wrestler doing.
Seriously, what would've been the worst that happened? Bret Hart loses the match dirty to HBK and comes out looking cheated and going into the WCW hunting for a new World Title and looking just as perfectly marketable and tough as before. Or he could've lost cleanly, and him and HBK could've shaken hands and Hart would've gone out looking even BETTER then when he went in.
Not to mention how immature and childish Bret acted after the match. Spitting in Vince's face, punching him in the face backstage when all Vince wanted to do was talk to him. He acted like a 5 year old in the candy aisle who's mother won't buy him a chocolate bar. Hate to be blunt, but he acted like a little bitch. Waah waah waah Vince why didn't you let me go into another promotion as your Champion and totally ruin your company's credibility? Why didn't you let me be a selfish prick? Completely and totally selfish and immature.
Please explain to me how this shouldn't of happened. Anyone at all feel free to explain how I'm wrong, how Vince didn't have to do this, how Bret wasn't being a total and utterly selfish dick?
Bret is a legend. And he was also a great company man for the WWF until the time came when he wanted more money. Then he became a completely selfish and egotistical asshole, who thought that his personal kayfabe reputation was more important then the company and people that were responsible for his entire wealth and good fortune in life.
As cliche as it sounds, and as much as propaganda as it sounds, the simple fact is Bret Screwed Bret. It always was the truth.
Fuck Bret Hart. He did something completely childish and was shocked when Vince wouldn't let him get away with it. He's like Hulk Hogan in my book---a legend of this business. But a piece of shit when it comes to backstage politics.
This issue is argued over so much, and its always the same arguments. The problem is, one of the arguments makes perfect sense, the other is based off of some imaginary idea of Bret losing in Canada as "destroying his credibility" (yeah I'm sure everyone would've immediately not cared anymore about Bret Hart after losing to someone he's already lost to many times).
Bret was selfish. So he got what was coming to him. Get over it people. Vince McMahon is a legendary asshole, we all know this, but this situation wasn't his fault. This was the ONLY DAMN choice he had.
What else would you have him do? Let Bischoff go on Nitro the day after Survivor Series and announce the WWF CHAMPION WAS COMING TO WCW? That would've made the WWF look like total shit. Thats a pure business decision that he had to made, and anyone with even a shred of business savvy would understand that in a god damn second.
But no, everyone has to go one emotions and because Bret is such a great "company" man (yet refuses to lose to the biggest star in the company on his way out). Bret was a great company man. WAS. Until he decided he was bigger then the WWF, and decided he wasn't going to honor one of the oldest traditions in wrestling. When you're on your way out, you put other people over. Thats how it's always been, thats how it always will be. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't RVD do that last year? Lose to everyone in a 10 mile radius in his last month before leaving?
But Bret Hart decided he was better then the WWF, that they owed HIM something (which is fucking laughable considering Hart would be a nobody without the WWF) and that he couldn't let his "character" look bad by losing in his home COUNTRY. No, not even his home city, but his home country. Does anyone else not see how fucking ludicrous that is? Like if you wrestle in your own country, that makes you invincible? Ridiculious.
Bret Hart decided to be a complete fuckin' douchebag. Everyone who's saying "But why did he have to lose in the sharpshooter?"...umm...he didn't HAVE TO. That could've gone down a million other ways, like someone said before me, DX could've interfered, it didn't even have to be a clean win. But no, Bret thought far too highly of himself, and that he was bigger and more important then the WWF was. He deserved what he got. There was no other choice, absolutely no other choice. If you think you'd of done something different, guess what? You probably would've led the WWF out of business because WCW would've had the WWF's own World Champion signed the next night. You thought Alundra Blayze dropping the Womens Title into the garbage was bad? Imagine what happens to your credibility when that's your World Title being dropped in the garbage. WCW would've had so much momentum, they might've won the war.
I'm not saying HBK is innocent, or McMahon isn't an asshole. Both were/are politickers at their finest. But so was Bret Hart, so stop pretending he was Jesus H. Christ himself, when he did one of the most selfish things I've ever heard of a wrestler doing.
Seriously, what would've been the worst that happened? Bret Hart loses the match dirty to HBK and comes out looking cheated and going into the WCW hunting for a new World Title and looking just as perfectly marketable and tough as before. Or he could've lost cleanly, and him and HBK could've shaken hands and Hart would've gone out looking even BETTER then when he went in.
Not to mention how immature and childish Bret acted after the match. Spitting in Vince's face, punching him in the face backstage when all Vince wanted to do was talk to him. He acted like a 5 year old in the candy aisle who's mother won't buy him a chocolate bar. Hate to be blunt, but he acted like a little bitch. Waah waah waah Vince why didn't you let me go into another promotion as your Champion and totally ruin your company's credibility? Why didn't you let me be a selfish prick? Completely and totally selfish and immature.
Please explain to me how this shouldn't of happened. Anyone at all feel free to explain how I'm wrong, how Vince didn't have to do this, how Bret wasn't being a total and utterly selfish dick?
Bret is a legend. And he was also a great company man for the WWF until the time came when he wanted more money. Then he became a completely selfish and egotistical asshole, who thought that his personal kayfabe reputation was more important then the company and people that were responsible for his entire wealth and good fortune in life.
As cliche as it sounds, and as much as propaganda as it sounds, the simple fact is Bret Screwed Bret. It always was the truth.
Fuck Bret Hart. He did something completely childish and was shocked when Vince wouldn't let him get away with it. He's like Hulk Hogan in my book---a legend of this business. But a piece of shit when it comes to backstage politics.
So did Vince not ask for Bret to take the WCW offer. Did Bret not do everything he could, including signing a 20 year contract to stay with the WWF for the rest of his life, not to have Vince practically beg Bret to take the WCW offer. Saying Bret wanted to leave for more money is just plain wrong and not truthful. Bret wanted to stay with the WWF plain and simple, anything else is contrary to the truth.
A handshake with HBK, wait, you mean what Bret Hart tried to do at WM12, like Warrior and Hogan and other face vs face guys do? Oh wait, he tried that and HBK told Hebner to get Hart the fuck out of his ring. Don't believe me, pop in that DVD of WM 12 and watch it. It's what started the entire feud to begin with. HBK was selfish and didn't feel like sharing the spotlight with a guy he just wrestled for over an hour. It was all about HBK which was bullshit.
And as far as Bret showing up as the champion, Bret said he had no problem dropping the title, it just wasn't going to be to HBK. You know the same HBK that said in meeting leading up to Survivor Series that he wasn't going to be jobbing to anyone anymore, that HBK. Bret Hart was standing up for principles, plain and simple. You don't like it, big deal, it's the boys in the back he was doing it for. Not Vince McMahon, Not Shawn Michaels, not Bret Hart. The guys like Austin, Foley, Simmons, Vader and Undertaker that all stood up for Hart. The guys that were sick of the Kliq and Michaels running the show backstage, those guys. Damn that Bret Hart for standing up for principles, damn that Bret Hart for not jobbing to a guy he jobbed to a year and half before. Damn that Bret Hart for not jobbing to a selfish prick that said he wasn't going to lay down for anyone else in the company, damn that Bret Hart straight to hell.
And enough with the Bret Hart going to wCW with the title and champion, that's crap. And besides, didn't Vincent K. McMahon ask Ric Flair to bring the big Gold Belt with him to the WWF in 1991. Didn't Vince McMahon parade that belt on WWF TV. So if Bret Hart did do this, which he wouldn't have, it wasn't something that McMahon himself hadn't done already.
Is Bret Hart an asshole, you bet, but outside and away from the ring. From everything I've read about the guy, he had the respect of the locker room, minus Michaels, Triple H and the Harris Brothers, and Michaels and Triple H's credibility is worth a shit in my opinion.
A handshake with HBK, wait, you mean what Bret Hart tried to do at WM12, like Warrior and Hogan and other face vs face guys do? Oh wait, he tried that and HBK told Hebner to get Hart the fuck out of his ring. Don't believe me, pop in that DVD of WM 12 and watch it. It's what started the entire feud to begin with. HBK was selfish and didn't feel like sharing the spotlight with a guy he just wrestled for over an hour. It was all about HBK which was bullshit.
And as far as Bret showing up as the champion, Bret said he had no problem dropping the title, it just wasn't going to be to HBK. You know the same HBK that said in meeting leading up to Survivor Series that he wasn't going to be jobbing to anyone anymore, that HBK. Bret Hart was standing up for principles, plain and simple. You don't like it, big deal, it's the boys in the back he was doing it for. Not Vince McMahon, Not Shawn Michaels, not Bret Hart. The guys like Austin, Foley, Simmons, Vader and Undertaker that all stood up for Hart. The guys that were sick of the Kliq and Michaels running the show backstage, those guys. Damn that Bret Hart for standing up for principles, damn that Bret Hart for not jobbing to a guy he jobbed to a year and half before. Damn that Bret Hart for not jobbing to a selfish prick that said he wasn't going to lay down for anyone else in the company, damn that Bret Hart straight to hell.
And enough with the Bret Hart going to wCW with the title and champion, that's crap. And besides, didn't Vincent K. McMahon ask Ric Flair to bring the big Gold Belt with him to the WWF in 1991. Didn't Vince McMahon parade that belt on WWF TV. So if Bret Hart did do this, which he wouldn't have, it wasn't something that McMahon himself hadn't done already.
Is Bret Hart an asshole, you bet, but outside and away from the ring. From everything I've read about the guy, he had the respect of the locker room, minus Michaels, Triple H and the Harris Brothers, and Michaels and Triple H's credibility is worth a shit in my opinion.
Everything that occurred between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels prior to that match is completely irrelevant. Bret Hart had a job to do, to drop the belt that night, before he left. Not because it was the honorable thing to do, because he was still under contract with the WWF and the WWF owner told him to drop the belt. IT WAS HIS JOB. His opponent doesn't matter. I could give a rat's ass if he and HBK had bad blood. It completely doesn't matter. Vince told him to drop the belt, and he refused. End of story. Vince McMahon is the owner of the WWF/E. Bret Hart wasn't. As long as he cashed in those huge paychecks he was getting, he had a responsibility to the company to do what he was told to do in the ring. He was told to drop the belt to HBK. He could have just not gone to the ring, giving Vince the opportunity to just strip him of the title...but he showed up, he wrestled, knowing full well he was supposed to lose, and knowing full well that he wasn't planning to. Bret Hart completely lost my respect that day, because he put himself above the company. What difference does a PROP make? Why was it such a big deal? Because he let his petty feud with HBK get in the way, that's why. Vince did what he did, because Bret refused to act like a professional. What would have happened if he hadn't been leaving for WCW, and was scripted to lose the belt to HBK that night? Hmm? Would he have dropped the belt to HBK under those circumstances? C'mon all you Hart apologists...he had lost to HBK before, what makes the Survivor Series any different? Its different because Hart decided to try to screw the company that made him a superstar, and Vince decided to screw him instead. Don't get all pissy because Vince did it to Bret first...
McMahon did offer a 20 year contract. And then he realized his company was losing a ton of money and couldn't afford to pay Bret Hart the most out of the entire company, especially since he wasn't their biggest star. McMahon did indeed tell Bret to seek a contract from WCW---because McMahon knew he couldn't afford the guy anymore. Bret wanted to stay with the WWF he did, but only if he was the highest paid wrestler on the roster. I'm sorry, that isn't selfish? By 1997 he wasn't the top star, shit by the time the screwjob happened he wasn't even one of the top 3 stars (HBK, Undertaker & Austin were bigger then him by that point). WWF was losing money by the minute, so they couldn't afford him anymore. Bret Hart left for monetary reasons. Thats the truth. You can't deny that. He didn't want to take a big time pay cut, so he left.
You're right, I did forget about that. HBK was selfish. I'm not denying this, neve have. That doesn't negate Hart's selfishness whatsoever. Hart still could've put HBK over in a dirty way, had DX interfere.
Bret actually went a step further and said he would drop the belt to HBK. Until HBK said he wouldn't do the same for Hart. So he decides to refuse to lose to HBK. But it wasn't for the guys in the back. It wasn't for the little man, or something so honorable like you're making it sound, it was because he hated HBK. It was as simple as that. You'd think if he wanted to be honorable and show a great example to the guys backstage, he'd of been the mature one in that situation and said Yes I'll job, because I'm an adult and it would've made him look better.
But he didn't do that. He decided to be just as immature as HBK was, and refuse to job. Neither of them were right about it. The fact of the matter is, it didn't matter what Bret Hart wanted. For all he did for the company, the company did 20x more for him. The WWF didn't owe Bret Hart jack shit, and this illusion that they did is rewriting past at its finest. Bret Hart should've said yes I'll job to HBK, I won't like it, but I'm an adult and mature and I'm going to do what my boss tells me to do, and pay the proper respects to the company and the business. No respect had to be paid to HBK, just the business and company that made him who he was. But that was too much for him.
"But it could've been someone other then HBK" people say...really? It could've? Who could it have been? The Undertaker, Austin, the Rock, Mankind, all were tied up in storylines. Who else was there? That match was in the plans for monthes, and they're supposed to change it just because of Bret's ego? No, bullshit. HBK winning the belt at Survivor Series was what PEOPLE WANTED TO SEE, and guess what happened when he did? Ratings began to go up. The WWF began to make money again. Then they began to beat WCW in the ratings. When did all of this really start? At Survivor Series. If it wasn't HBK in that match, then what would've happened? Who would Austin have feuded with for Wrestlemania? THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE TO FEUD WITH! EVERYONE ELSE WAS INVOLVED IN STORYLINES ALREADY!
Why is it crap? Even if Hart hadn't gone with the physical belt itself, the fact that WCW would have signed away the WWF champion would've made the WWF look like the minor leagues and would've destroyed all credibility.
Stop thinking about this from a fan's perspective, and think of it from a business perspective. Vince did the right thing from that stance, and there was no other choice he could make. Pride and respect are moot points if you're business tanks.
I already conceded the fact that HBK is a dick backstage, and that Vince McMahon is a legendary asshole who did things like ask Flair to bring the NWA belt with him to the WWF. I'm not defending McMahon or HBK. But all you're doing is pointing at other guys and saying "But he did that too!" and it doesn't mean that it wasn't wrong then.
HBK, Vince, and Bret were all assholes in this situation. All of them. Thats all I want people to concede and stop pretending like Bret was standing up for people and was for some higher purpose when he clearly was just being as selfish and as childish as HBK was at the time, but because his was in a defensive manner, it's deemed "okay". And it's not.
Bret Screwed Bret. That's the truth and I'm sticking to it for the rest of my life.
I'm certainly not a Hart apologist, but I'm not going to sit idly by and let people that think McMahon can do no wrong run wild on these forums. Where oh where do you get the impression that Bret Hart, after signing a twenty year deal, not a one, two, three, five or ten year deal, but a twenty year deal with the company, would try and screw the WWF. For the upteenth time, Bret Hart did not want to leave the company plain and simple. Vince McMahon pushed him out the door and Vince McMahon agreed to the double DQ finish at Survivor Series.
I'm certainly not Bret Hart's biggest fan, personally, the guys an asshole, but that's outsid eand away from the ring. It's silly comments like this that just drive me bonkers. Don't give the guy creative control if you don't want him to use it. Vince gave Bret creative control, that's what happens when as a promoter you give guys that type of power. Vince McMahon created the situation.
And as far as the losing to HBK thing, then why was it so hard for HBK to lose to Hart instead of ducking out of those matches? Vince loves controversy, and this situation reeked of controversy. Don't mix things that aren't supposed to be mixed together
See X is fun to debate with. So I'm getting ready to go to bed, but X, I'll leave you with one thing and I want your story on it. Bret signs a twenty year deal. Vince comes to him later on and says he can't afford to pay him, so they agree to spread the payments out and all is well. Vince comes back to him again and says the same thing about defered payments. Bret already agreed to this once and this time with the financial situation in the WWE being what it is, what else was Bret to do. He wasn't going to work for free. And like it or not, Veterans in any sport make more then the younger guys. Sure, wrestling doesn't have collective bargaining and a union and all that, but it's pretty universally known, the guy with the most staying power gets the biggest check. I don't see how Vince saying he can't pay Bret the money he is contractually obligated too and the contract that Vince was okay with makes Bret selfish. My opinion, don't offer a guy a twenty year contract if you don't intend to offer it.
And as far as drawing power in 1997, Bret was just as big of a draw in 97 as Undertaker and Austin, hell he was the heel that made the company go until HBK came back full time in September. Bret was still a viable draw for the company.
And as far as drawing power in 1997, Bret was just as big of a draw in 97 as Undertaker and Austin, hell he was the heel that made the company go until HBK came back full time in September. Bret was still a viable draw for the company.
jericho3150
Occasional Pre-Show
Vince changed the money situation so he could keep Bret.. everything was back to normal and then it was Bret who called Vince (after Vince thought that Bret was going to stay) and said WCW made him an offer and he was leaning toward taking the deal... Bret could have stayed with WWF and made every penny they promised him.. Bret could have told WCW thanks but no thanks... Bret chose to leave..
I've watched this match 100 times.. I've never seen Shawn say that.. Did he want to celebrate in the ring by himself?? Probably.. you can see Shawn say something to Earl and he kicked out Jose Lethario.. which he should have.. This was the defining moment of his career.. And you brought up the Hogan Warrior thing.. did you know that Hogan admitted in an interview about a year ago that he came back and did all that to take the spotlight off of the warrior and not make that night "all about him"
Unfortunately for him thats not Bret decision to make...
Holy Christ of a Pony... If you really believe that Bret wasn't doing this for himself and was doing this for the boys....wow.. there is no bigger revisionist history than Bret no after the fact trying to justify his actions..
YOu argue with your feeling and not rational thought. Which is what Brets entire side is based on.. emotions and hurt feelings.. Vinces side is more business and factual..
Which is why Vince knew first hand that he couldn't allow this to happen... Yes Vince did that.. so he knew about the situation already first hand.
Im sure everyone who's ever said anything bad about Brets opinion isn't worth shit to you... Vince..HBK..HHH..Gerold Brisco..Earl Hebner..Glenn Gilbertti..Dustin Rennels..Bad News Brown.. The Mountie..JR.. Jerry Lawler..Hulk Hogan.. Dynamite Kid..Nash.. Waylon Mercy..Brets whole family.... ALL LIARS!!
What makes you think I'm some huge Bret Hart fan, I'm not. I enjoy his work, but like I said, I'm not going to let WWF and McMahon apologist run wildly in thi sforum and not have there views challenged.
Vince McMahon has backed off on the screwjob and even mentioned the word regret, where as Bret has stayed stead fast in his decision that night. McMahon comes across as having a guilty conscious, Hart doesn't. That's pretty strong, considering it's ten plus years later.
Michaels and Hunter's opinion are shit in my book. You're talking about the two most egotistical, self centered guys the business may have ever seen. What, Kliq members trying to bury someone else, say it isn't so, who would have thought that.
Brisco: Yup, the guy that wrestled in an evening gown for Vince McMahon is sure going to speak out against the guy while still under contract.
Hebner: Again, the guy swore on his children's life not to screw Bret. Oh, and he said he didn't know anything aobut the screw job, that damn pesky microphone picking up the "Ring the Bell" statement must still be haunting him to this day. Silly little thing when that truth thing gets in the way.
Gilbertti: Has stated that Flair is a better wrestler then Bret Hart, so that pretty much throws his opinion in the trash can in my opinion. Isn't most of his opinions on Bret based on one match with the guy?
Dustin Runnels: Yup, Mr. Credibility himself.
Bad News Brown: Bret said something bad about him, so Bad News Brown says something bad back, that's a shocker.
The Mountie: Yup, mr. locker room. The guy didn't get into any fights or have any real life beefs with anyone. The guy was a trouble maker.
JR and the King: The kings of revisionist history. They are the lips to the doll as McMahon pulls the strings. Both are masters of the spin and flip flop.
Hogan. Does the guy say anything good about anyone?
Nash: Hasn't he flip flopped on Bret Hart as well.
Waylon Mercy: Who?
And as far as going to WCW. Put it this way, why wouldn't he go by that point. Vince changed his mind at the eleventh hour on deciding to bring Bret back into the fold. Why wouldn't he be a bit jaded with McMahon after all of you should go to WCW talk. McMahon did almost everything to make Hart feel unwelcome in the WWF. He practically waited until Bret's name was on the contract with Turner land before he said, oh wait, I really didn't mean for you to do that. Don't put someone in that situation if you don't want him in that situation.
Vince McMahon has backed off on the screwjob and even mentioned the word regret, where as Bret has stayed stead fast in his decision that night. McMahon comes across as having a guilty conscious, Hart doesn't. That's pretty strong, considering it's ten plus years later.
Michaels and Hunter's opinion are shit in my book. You're talking about the two most egotistical, self centered guys the business may have ever seen. What, Kliq members trying to bury someone else, say it isn't so, who would have thought that.
Brisco: Yup, the guy that wrestled in an evening gown for Vince McMahon is sure going to speak out against the guy while still under contract.
Hebner: Again, the guy swore on his children's life not to screw Bret. Oh, and he said he didn't know anything aobut the screw job, that damn pesky microphone picking up the "Ring the Bell" statement must still be haunting him to this day. Silly little thing when that truth thing gets in the way.
Gilbertti: Has stated that Flair is a better wrestler then Bret Hart, so that pretty much throws his opinion in the trash can in my opinion. Isn't most of his opinions on Bret based on one match with the guy?
Dustin Runnels: Yup, Mr. Credibility himself.
Bad News Brown: Bret said something bad about him, so Bad News Brown says something bad back, that's a shocker.
The Mountie: Yup, mr. locker room. The guy didn't get into any fights or have any real life beefs with anyone. The guy was a trouble maker.
JR and the King: The kings of revisionist history. They are the lips to the doll as McMahon pulls the strings. Both are masters of the spin and flip flop.
Hogan. Does the guy say anything good about anyone?
Nash: Hasn't he flip flopped on Bret Hart as well.
Waylon Mercy: Who?
And as far as going to WCW. Put it this way, why wouldn't he go by that point. Vince changed his mind at the eleventh hour on deciding to bring Bret back into the fold. Why wouldn't he be a bit jaded with McMahon after all of you should go to WCW talk. McMahon did almost everything to make Hart feel unwelcome in the WWF. He practically waited until Bret's name was on the contract with Turner land before he said, oh wait, I really didn't mean for you to do that. Don't put someone in that situation if you don't want him in that situation.
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