Miss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
Um, and we don't jump to lick Hogans balls like you do. Buddy, it's an opinion. If you think Hogan is Mr. Wrestlemania, then so be it, but other people have different opinions. GOD.
Who really is Mr Wrestlemania?
- Thread starter kurt_angle_no1fan
- Start date
Um, and we don't jump to lick Hogans balls like you do. Buddy, it's an opinion. If you think Hogan is Mr. Wrestlemania, then so be it, but other people have different opinions. GOD.
Hulkamaniac
Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz
Every Wrestlemania where Hogan was an active wrestler other than one, that Wrestlemania is defined by Hogan's presence:
Wrestlemania 1: His opponents and teammate certainly helped, but Hogan is a ke part of what defined this Wrestlemania.
Wrestlemania 2: Defined by two things: stupid multi-location set up, and Hulk HOgan in a steel cage.
Wrestlemania 3: THE defining Wrestlemania moment, no matter what some jabronies might be trying to argue. People claim "Savage and Steamboat stole the show." Bullshit. Savage and Steamboat put on a classic match, no doubt, but even then, they were still outshined by Hulk Hogan vs. Andre th Giant and the Slam Heard 'Round the World.
SIDE NOTE: To the people arguing that many fans weren't around for Wrestlemania 3, so for them, some other random moment is the greatest Wrestlemania moment, I call bullshit. I wasn't alive for World War 2 or the Civil War or the Revolutionary War, but I'm still pretty cognizant of the fact that all of them are more important than Grenada and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Wrestlemania 4: Defined by Randy Savage. Although Hogan played a small role, I think this one rightfully belongs to Randy Savage.
Wrestlemania 5: Mega Powers Explode is the greatest angle in the history of wrestling, in my book, and this Wrestlemania was defined by Hulk Hogan triumphing over Savage in a legitimately great match.
Wrestlemania 6: Some might argue that this is Ultimate Warrior's Wrestlemania, but I strongly feel this Mania was defined by Hulk Hogan losing, not by Ultimate Warrior winning.
Wrestlemania 7: Hulk Hogan defeats Iraqi sympathizer Sgt. Slaughter. Easily a Mania defined by Hogan as the American Hero.
Wrestlemania 8: Don't ask me how, but Hogan-Sid was a legitimately hotter angle with the crowd then Savage-Flair, and Hogan agian went on last.
So far, Hogan has literally defined 8 of the 9 Mania's he's been in. That is, his actions are what are most memorable from those Mania's for the VAST majority of fans.
Wrestlemania 9: Again, this Mania is remembered for Hogan's actions, although this time it's not in nearly as positive a way. After missing significant time during the year, and with the steroid controversy blooming, Hogan swoops back in after Bret Hart drops his title toYokozuna and takes the title to end Wrestlemania. For better or for worse, there is no doubt that this is what Mania 9 is most remembered for.
Hogan jumps ship to WCW, and doesn't see a WWF/E ring again until....
Wrestlemania 18: The Immortal vs. The Great One. Icon vs. Icon. Hulk Hogan vs. The Rock. This match was undoubtedly the star of the show, and how the WWE decided to NOT put this on last is beyond me because the crowd was BEYOND dead for the remaining two matches, including a UNDISPUTED WORLD TITLE MATCH. This match featured what I believe to be the hottest crowd of all time, and a true Mania Moment when Hogan and the Rock had their staredown. This Mania is undeniably remembered for this match, and for Hogan.
Wrestlemania 19: This one is an arguable one, so I wouldn't count this one as Hogan's Mania, even though the match I most remember is Hogan-McMahon, but it's more of a shared Mania, with Steve Austin's last match (although not really known at the time) and Lesnar's botched Shooting Star Press. I'll count this one as a "tie".
So, Hogan undeniably defined how we remember ten of the 12 Wrestlemania's he's wrestled, and possibly 11 depending on how you feel about Wrestlemania 19.
If I do this breakdown for Undertaker and Shawn Michaels, the results will not be as favorable.
Wrestlemania 1: His opponents and teammate certainly helped, but Hogan is a ke part of what defined this Wrestlemania.
Wrestlemania 2: Defined by two things: stupid multi-location set up, and Hulk HOgan in a steel cage.
Wrestlemania 3: THE defining Wrestlemania moment, no matter what some jabronies might be trying to argue. People claim "Savage and Steamboat stole the show." Bullshit. Savage and Steamboat put on a classic match, no doubt, but even then, they were still outshined by Hulk Hogan vs. Andre th Giant and the Slam Heard 'Round the World.
SIDE NOTE: To the people arguing that many fans weren't around for Wrestlemania 3, so for them, some other random moment is the greatest Wrestlemania moment, I call bullshit. I wasn't alive for World War 2 or the Civil War or the Revolutionary War, but I'm still pretty cognizant of the fact that all of them are more important than Grenada and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Wrestlemania 4: Defined by Randy Savage. Although Hogan played a small role, I think this one rightfully belongs to Randy Savage.
Wrestlemania 5: Mega Powers Explode is the greatest angle in the history of wrestling, in my book, and this Wrestlemania was defined by Hulk Hogan triumphing over Savage in a legitimately great match.
Wrestlemania 6: Some might argue that this is Ultimate Warrior's Wrestlemania, but I strongly feel this Mania was defined by Hulk Hogan losing, not by Ultimate Warrior winning.
Wrestlemania 7: Hulk Hogan defeats Iraqi sympathizer Sgt. Slaughter. Easily a Mania defined by Hogan as the American Hero.
Wrestlemania 8: Don't ask me how, but Hogan-Sid was a legitimately hotter angle with the crowd then Savage-Flair, and Hogan agian went on last.
So far, Hogan has literally defined 8 of the 9 Mania's he's been in. That is, his actions are what are most memorable from those Mania's for the VAST majority of fans.
Wrestlemania 9: Again, this Mania is remembered for Hogan's actions, although this time it's not in nearly as positive a way. After missing significant time during the year, and with the steroid controversy blooming, Hogan swoops back in after Bret Hart drops his title toYokozuna and takes the title to end Wrestlemania. For better or for worse, there is no doubt that this is what Mania 9 is most remembered for.
Hogan jumps ship to WCW, and doesn't see a WWF/E ring again until....
Wrestlemania 18: The Immortal vs. The Great One. Icon vs. Icon. Hulk Hogan vs. The Rock. This match was undoubtedly the star of the show, and how the WWE decided to NOT put this on last is beyond me because the crowd was BEYOND dead for the remaining two matches, including a UNDISPUTED WORLD TITLE MATCH. This match featured what I believe to be the hottest crowd of all time, and a true Mania Moment when Hogan and the Rock had their staredown. This Mania is undeniably remembered for this match, and for Hogan.
Wrestlemania 19: This one is an arguable one, so I wouldn't count this one as Hogan's Mania, even though the match I most remember is Hogan-McMahon, but it's more of a shared Mania, with Steve Austin's last match (although not really known at the time) and Lesnar's botched Shooting Star Press. I'll count this one as a "tie".
So, Hogan undeniably defined how we remember ten of the 12 Wrestlemania's he's wrestled, and possibly 11 depending on how you feel about Wrestlemania 19.
If I do this breakdown for Undertaker and Shawn Michaels, the results will not be as favorable.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Hulk Hogan is Mr. Wrestlemania.
Michaels is 2nd.
Taker is 3rd.
Savage is a close 4th. In fact, I may even stick Savage over Taker.
Hulk Hogan WAS Wrestlemania. Remember, Hulkamania existed BEFORE Wrestlemania, and Wrestlemania exists BECAUSE OF Hulkamania, as well as because of Vince's risk. Vince damn sure wouldn't have taken that risk with anybody else. He didn't take that risk with Rogers, Morales, Sammartino, Backlund, Andre, and he wouldn't have taken that risk with Michaels, Taker, or Savage.
Wrestlemania is as much about iconic moments as it is about great matches. We romanticize great matches because we are smarky, over-the-top wrestling fans and we know more than 90% of the general fans out there. But the mainstream fan doesn't always remember the terrific match Shawn put on With Tito Santana at Wrestlemania 8. They remember iconic moments.
Hogan slamming Andre. Iconic moment.
Hogan losing to Warrior. Iconic moment.
A blood soaked Hogan with the American flag in hand. Iconic Moment.
Hogan staring down The Rock. Iconic moment.
Michaels has had some as well. The splash off the ladder at Wrestlemania 10. The superkick at Wrestlemania 12. The won over Flair.
But as great as Shawn's MATCHES were, it's the moments that capture the essence of the Wrestlemania event, and those belong to Hogan.
Michaels is 2nd.
Taker is 3rd.
Savage is a close 4th. In fact, I may even stick Savage over Taker.
Hulk Hogan WAS Wrestlemania. Remember, Hulkamania existed BEFORE Wrestlemania, and Wrestlemania exists BECAUSE OF Hulkamania, as well as because of Vince's risk. Vince damn sure wouldn't have taken that risk with anybody else. He didn't take that risk with Rogers, Morales, Sammartino, Backlund, Andre, and he wouldn't have taken that risk with Michaels, Taker, or Savage.
Wrestlemania is as much about iconic moments as it is about great matches. We romanticize great matches because we are smarky, over-the-top wrestling fans and we know more than 90% of the general fans out there. But the mainstream fan doesn't always remember the terrific match Shawn put on With Tito Santana at Wrestlemania 8. They remember iconic moments.
Hogan slamming Andre. Iconic moment.
Hogan losing to Warrior. Iconic moment.
A blood soaked Hogan with the American flag in hand. Iconic Moment.
Hogan staring down The Rock. Iconic moment.
Michaels has had some as well. The splash off the ladder at Wrestlemania 10. The superkick at Wrestlemania 12. The won over Flair.
But as great as Shawn's MATCHES were, it's the moments that capture the essence of the Wrestlemania event, and those belong to Hogan.
Radical Canadian Goose
Getting Noticed By Management
Seriously, why is this a question. Who is Mr.Wrestlemania? and how has nobody come up with real answer? Mr.Wrestlemania is................. TITO SANTANA!!!!!!
Come on, the guy participated in Wrestlemanias 1-8 and only ever won at Wrestlemania 1 vs The Executioner... That means 7 straight losses....Top that streak Taker...He even put Michaels over in his first ever Mania singles match at #8...That is why Tito is Mr.Mania
Come on, the guy participated in Wrestlemanias 1-8 and only ever won at Wrestlemania 1 vs The Executioner... That means 7 straight losses....Top that streak Taker...He even put Michaels over in his first ever Mania singles match at #8...That is why Tito is Mr.Mania
Um, and we don't jump to lick Hogans balls like you do. Buddy, it's an opinion. If you think Hogan is Mr. Wrestlemania, then so be it, but other people have different opinions. GOD.
I'm not licking Hogan's balls. I am rational and know how important Hogan is to this industry, unlike some people who think HBK is the be all end all for wrestlers. Yeah, he's had some memorable moments, but is he Mr. WM just b/c the WWE and he say he is? Fuck no. If that was the case, the World's Greatest Tag-Team would be the World's Greatest Tag-Team, just b/c the WWE said they were. Hogan made WM, and anyone who thinks he didn't is a flat out ******. He's Mr. WM, it's quite obvious. Everything that HBK has had for him pales HUGELY to what Hogan did.
Miss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
Well, then that's just your opinion, HBK says he's Mr. Wrestlemania, because he's put on great matches at Wrestlemania. I agree with him. He wouldn't be calling himself that, if he didn't put on great matches...
Just because Hogan slammed Andre, and he created it by saying "Hulkamania" doesn't mean he tops everyone.
WWEWrestleFest
Pre-Show Stalwart
But when Hulk Hogan was headlining WrestleManias, WWF, and wrestling in general, were taken to new heights. When Shawn Michaels was headlining WMs, WWF almost went out of business, all the while Hogan and the nWo were taking WWF's competition, WCW, to new heights.
Putting on great matches is one thing, but the main purpose of a wrestler is to draw. If you ran a wrestling promotion, would you build around the guy who could work a better match, or the guy who could draw more?
If you see this as in ring performance at wrestlemania then I would say its definately Shawn Micheals. He has had better matches in the ring then Undertaker had at wrestlemania. Undertaker had pretty solid matches in the ring but not as good as shawn Micheals. If you read this question as who had more impact at wrestlemania than these guys I would say The Undertaker. Wrestlemania is now known as The Undertaker's streak. He is definately has become synonyms to wrestlemania. we can not imagine wrestlemania now without having Undertaker defending his streak at wrestlemania. It will loose 50% of its interest in casual fans
Like I said, just because HBK says he's Mr. WM doesn't mean he's Mr. WM. Hogan was the one that put WM on the map, and he had some pretty memorable matches with Savage, Warrior, Andre, and the Rock.
And I'd like to point out that HBK hasn't even wrestled in the top 2 singles matches of all time at WM. That's Bret Hart. So does that mean that Bret should be Mr. WM? Because he's certainly had more memorable matches at WM then Shawn.
Miss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
But, HBK proves that he's Mr. WM. Have you ever seen his matches at WM? Most of them are really great.
I agree that Hogan is pretty memorable, but IMO, HBK is more memorable. Maybe thats because he was my idol when I was a kid, and he's still my favourite wrestler, and like I said, he proves that he is in fact, Mr. WM.
I was never really a fan of Bret Hart. (And I'm Canadian) The screw job sorta bugged me at the time it happened, but not really. Like I said, it's in the matter of opinion. I think HBK had more great matches that Bret Hart or Hogan. But that's just my opinion.
So why do you think Vince put HBK on top? Because he's a great wrestler and a great entertainer. When WWF was almost out of business, they decided to put HBK and Bret Hart on top.
You proved my point that HBK marks think that HBK is Mr. WM b/c he crowned it upon himself. Hogan's big 4 (vs. Andre, Savage, Warrior, & Rock) are all more memorable to casuals then HBK's big 4 (vs. Ramon, Hart, Flair, and Taker).
No, actually, it was b/c of the steroid scandal and Vince decided to put it on some smaller guys so it didn't look like the WWE was a bunch of roided out freaks. Putting HBK on top almost put him out of business. He just isn't as much (if any) of a draw as you think he is.
Miss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
Oh well, then I mis-read you. I do agree with you that HBK marks will think that he is HBK, cause its true. If you think Hogan is Mr. WM then so be it. How many fucking times do I have to say that?
Prove it.
If you're talking about HBK not being a draw, here's a link to the WM buyrates when he was chasing for the title (XI & XII). XIV I wouldn't count since it was more about Austin trying to get the title, but if you look with HBK ME drew two of the 5 lowest WM buyrates EVER (at least til 2008, that's all they list)
http://www.pwrestlingnews.com/wwe/ppv-buyrate/
And look at the KOTR, Summerslam, and Survivor Series buyrates of 1996.
KOTR: .6 (Only 97 was worse)
Summerslam: .58 (Worst ever by .22 points)
Survivor Series: .58 (.01 above 95, which was worst)
And look at all of the IYH buyrates from April 96 - October 96:
.81, .45, .37, .48, .44.
All featured Shawn as Champion. He's not a draw. He drew the worst buyrates as a champion ever. As for him getting the title b/c of the steroid scandal, I'll look, but I can't find any links for it atm.
http://www.pwrestlingnews.com/wwe/ppv-buyrate/
And look at the KOTR, Summerslam, and Survivor Series buyrates of 1996.
KOTR: .6 (Only 97 was worse)
Summerslam: .58 (Worst ever by .22 points)
Survivor Series: .58 (.01 above 95, which was worst)
And look at all of the IYH buyrates from April 96 - October 96:
.81, .45, .37, .48, .44.
All featured Shawn as Champion. He's not a draw. He drew the worst buyrates as a champion ever. As for him getting the title b/c of the steroid scandal, I'll look, but I can't find any links for it atm.
yeah hogan had great WM moments but he did them for him and for his ego Shawn did his moments for us the WWE universe to entertain us he wanted us when we paid for a ticket or paid for it on tv we got our money worth where Hollywood ego Hogan cared for him and not us
what are you TALKING about? for one, early WM matches of hogans? you saying he did that for his ego? becaus he actually had no controll over the matches you know that right? i been saying everyone BUT Hogan this whole time, but even i'll get behind him on that one. and if you knew anything about it, HBK had one of the BIGGEST ego's in the 90's. was an all around asshole, he's even said that. as have others. so there goes your whole theory out the window. nice try, better luck next timeMiss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
Okay, well, isn't this because Hogan was on WCW and everybody was watching WCW because of him? Well, then obviously Shawn had the worst buyrates.
Not for the first few months the nWo wasn't going on. It didn't happen til July 7, with 3 IYH PPV's going on before that. And Hogan wasn't even on TV for those 3 months leading up to the nWo, so your point is moot. Also, during the time when Shawn was champ the WWE was getting their asses handed to them in the ratings war. Shawn was one of the worst drawing champions in WWE History, Hogan or no Hogan. If Shawn was as good of a draw as you think he is he would've drawn more respectable buyrates then what they were getting when he was champion.
Alright, before I unleash this rant, I think it is pretty obvious to say that I am an HBK fan. I absolutely believe that he is the best in-ring performer to ever step foot into a squared circle. With that said though, I am also a man who believes in facts. The following are the facts as I believe them to be. They may not reflect how everyone feels, and I expect some people to quote me on these and tear them apart. I am ready for this. With that said............commence rant:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, not even Austin in his prime would have been able to beat the NWO when they first started. Austin got lucky, and got hot right as the NWO was beginning to get old and stale, but when the NWO was first starting off, they were pretty much the biggest thing to EVER happen in Pro Wrestling. You have two guys come in from the WWF and act like they are invading the company during a time when not everyone had access to the dirt sheets. I know personally, I was convinced that the WWF had sent Razor and Diesel over to mess with WCW. That was damn compelling television. Then, after three months, you throw in Hulk Hogan, HULK FRIGGEN HOGAN, Mr. "Say your prayers and eat your vitamins", pretty much the HERO to every person growing up in the 80's, and still the hero to millions of kids around the world, TURNING HEEL? I am shocked that the WWF didn't go out of business all together. Know what kept them from dying during that time? HBK, Shawn Michaels. He was the glue that held together the fragments of that company during the mid 90's. Austin was a year or two away from exploding, a lot of the top guys were leaving for more money in WCW, and there was only a handful of other guys that you could trust to do anything. All they pretty much had was HBK and the handful of other guys (Bret, Taker, Mankind, etc...) No, HBK didn't draw well at all, all he did was make sure that the WWF didn't DIE all together. That doesn't seem to be all that important though, because, OMG look at the numbers he did! They were crap! Of course they were crap! Any rational human being would expect them to be crap numbers, no matter who was champion, because of the competition they were up against. The sheer fact that the WWF survived while he was champion though, that is pretty damn good to me. Now, looking at a time when the WWE wasn't on the verge of death, say......Wrestlemania 23, what I believe to be the highest buyrate for a Wrestlemania ever, and a PPV that drew 80,000 people to the arena. Who main evented that PPV? Oh yeah, that's right, HBK vs Cena. Let's forget about that though, and focus on the time when WCW was a wrecking ball that was knocking down every building the WWF put up. That makes sense.
End Rant. Thank you for your time.
ted sheckler
Pre-Show Stalwart
Wow you need to start looking at things using context. The business was in a transitional phase.. you don't go from one boom period to another to another. The big guy cartoon thing had grown stale. At the time Shawn took over as champ you gotta remember almost all the other mainevent level stars they had left. Are you really shocked that when Diesel, Razor, Lex Luger left and Bret went on vacation that the numbers dipped? He had no one to work with in the main event let alone support on the undercard. Once Shawn he had people to work with he did fine.
Wrestlemania XVI vs Austin (730,000 buys) Up to the that time biggest Wrestling PPV buyrate ever.
Wrestlemania XX vs Benoit vs HHH (885,000 buys)
Wrestlemania 23 vs Cena (1,188,000 buys) THE Biggest selling WWE/F PPV of all time.
Wrestlemania 24 vs Flair (1,058,000) 2nd biggest WWE/F PPV of all time.
Wrestlemania 25 vs Taker (960,000) Didn't go on last but was by far the most anticipated match on the card.
Wrestlemania 26 vs Taker II (870,000)
So its easy to point out that during a period that wrestling as a whole was down in the ratings that he didn't grab the belt and immediately shoot the company to the moon ... but considering everything HBK has done alright for himself...
Hogan was great and really got the company rolling in the 80's and very early 90's but this feels like from the Hogan side at least arguing by my grandmothers logic of.. Everything was great before.. and everything is terrible now and will never be as good as when they were kids. Like some old man telling you... there will never be another quarterback like Joe Theismann .. we'll actually pops yes we will... infact we've already had quite a few...
To me Shawn Michaels is "Mr Wrestlemania" because unlike Hogan and Takers legacy that was created by the bookers... Shawns "streak" of stealing the show at Wrestlemania was something HE did. Whether he was in the main event or whether he wasn't HBK went out and work his ass off and had the match of the night...match of the year... thats not something you can script.
Pretty sure he could, considering he drew the highest gates ever in one single calendar year in 1998. Austin was a hell of a draw and would've put up a great fight with WCW.
What? They were still drawing 4's well into 1999. They were a draw, but Austin topped them.
What are you talking about? Shawn, at that time was only looking out for one guy - himself. He was not a company man, in fact he was quite selfish. Look at some of the stories on him from that time.
If that was the case then he would've had the title on longer then he did. And you really couldn't trust Shawn to follow some of the booking plans.
What? He was the guy that helped put them in that poor hole in the first place. Austin and the Rock are the ones that saved the WWF. Not Shawn.
If he was as good of a draw as people are saying he is then he would've been able to reel in some good ratings for RAW. But, for the most part, they were pathetic.
No, if you follow the link I gave WM 23 was in the bottom 5 as far as buyrate points. But of course it would have a greater amount of total buyrates considering PPV's weren't as common at the time.
Obviously the buyrate was gonna be high, he was facing the highest drawing superstar of this generation in Cena. HBK helped add to the intrigue, but Cena was the guy that mainly drew the crowd.
And PS - Hogan drew more, by about 13,000.
That doesn't change the fact that Shawn was a poor draw and helped put the WWF in the ratings hole that they were in.
Undertaker, Foley, Vader, Sid, a rising Austin?
No, he dropped the title once the hotter act (and bigger draw) was ready to get handed the title. He was nothing more then a glorified transitional champion.
Like I said earlier, obviously the TOTAL amount of buys now are gonna be greater then in the 80's because PPV's weren't as common then and it's expanded.
Pretty sure that Nitro was drawing mid 3's while WWF was only drawing 2's.
And I'm not trying to discredit Shawn. He was a good worker, but he was a terrible draw, no matter how many excuses you people try to make for him.
If you are trying to (somehow) imply that Shawn is a better wrestler, overall including everything, then Hogan, just stop.
Pretty sure Hogan got over without much help from the bookers. The people came to see Hogan. And when you get 20+ minutes against top workers every year like Shawn had of COURSE you're gonna have memorable moments and are able to 'steal the show'. And you're acting like Shawn was the only one that gave it all on the biggest stage in wrestling. Are you ******ed? You don't think Austin, Rock, Cena, Hogan, Savage, Bret, etc. gave their all on the biggest show of the year? You don't think they wanted to give the crowd a show? As for MOTY, all an opinion based thing. He had maybe 2 MOTY's (XX, and 23, haven't seen either Taker match), but that's just my opinion.
To say that Shawn is Mr. WM because he 'always gave his best effort and tried to put on a show' excuse is crap. Everyone tries their hardest at WM. Someone give me an instance where a worker phones it in and kept their job.
Stone_Cold_Stunner
Dark Match Jobber
The Heart Breakkid Shawn Michaels: Easily Shawn is the best performer on the big stage. Though i respect what Hogan did for Mania in the 80s especialy Wrestlemania III with Andre but Shawn is the best performer on Wrestlemania. Just look at his matches with Razor at Wrestlemania X, The Iron Man with Bret at Wrestlemania XII, The matches with Jericho, Angle, Beniot HHH, Cena, Flair and the ladt two with taker being these matches came post a back surgeury and a four year hiatus is something incredible.
Pretty sure he could, considering he drew the highest gates ever in one single calendar year in 1998. Austin was a hell of a draw and would've put up a great fight with WCW.
What? They were still drawing 4's well into 1999. They were a draw, but Austin topped them.
What are you talking about? Shawn, at that time was only looking out for one guy - himself. He was not a company man, in fact he was quite selfish. Look at some of the stories on him from that time.
If that was the case then he would've had the title on longer then he did. And you really couldn't trust Shawn to follow some of the booking plans.
What? He was the guy that helped put them in that poor hole in the first place. Austin and the Rock are the ones that saved the WWF. Not Shawn.
If he was as good of a draw as people are saying he is then he would've been able to reel in some good ratings for RAW. But, for the most part, they were pathetic.
No, if you follow the link I gave WM 23 was in the bottom 5 as far as buyrate points. But of course it would have a greater amount of total buyrates considering PPV's weren't as common at the time.
Obviously the buyrate was gonna be high, he was facing the highest drawing superstar of this generation in Cena. HBK helped add to the intrigue, but Cena was the guy that mainly drew the crowd.
And PS - Hogan drew more, by about 13,000.
That doesn't change the fact that Shawn was a poor draw and helped put the WWF in the ratings hole that they were in.
Undertaker, Foley, Vader, Sid, a rising Austin?
No, he dropped the title once the hotter act (and bigger draw) was ready to get handed the title. He was nothing more then a glorified transitional champion.
Like I said earlier, obviously the TOTAL amount of buys now are gonna be greater then in the 80's because PPV's weren't as common then and it's expanded.
Pretty sure that Nitro was drawing mid 3's while WWF was only drawing 2's.
And I'm not trying to discredit Shawn. He was a good worker, but he was a terrible draw, no matter how many excuses you people try to make for him.
If you are trying to (somehow) imply that Shawn is a better wrestler, overall including everything, then Hogan, just stop.
Pretty sure Hogan got over without much help from the bookers. The people came to see Hogan. And when you get 20+ minutes against top workers every year like Shawn had of COURSE you're gonna have memorable moments and are able to 'steal the show'. And you're acting like Shawn was the only one that gave it all on the biggest stage in wrestling. Are you ******ed? You don't think Austin, Rock, Cena, Hogan, Savage, Bret, etc. gave their all on the biggest show of the year? You don't think they wanted to give the crowd a show? As for MOTY, all an opinion based thing. He had maybe 2 MOTY's (XX, and 23, haven't seen either Taker match), but that's just my opinion.
To say that Shawn is Mr. WM because he 'always gave his best effort and tried to put on a show' excuse is crap. Everyone tries their hardest at WM. Someone give me an instance where a worker phones it in and kept their job.
Wow man. For all the talk you had about people licking HBK's balls and being blinded by their own love for him, you really are being a bit hypocritical when it comes to your Hogan love. You really can't admit that more than half the reason why Shawn didn't get great ratings, and didn't draw well in the mid nineties was because WCW at the time was the bigger company, with the more established bigger stars that they stole away from the WWF, and they had the hottest act in the world in the NWO? A fourth grader could tell you that was the reason why HBK didn't get great ratings.
Secondly, your "Pretty Sure" that Hogan got over without much help from the bookers or the writers? Wrestling is an act, it is a show, it is about writing the right lines for people, and with booking people in the right spot. Do you think Hogan had the idea for "The Slam" or is it more likely that a booker, or better yet, Vince, came up with it because they knew it would be a huge moment? Same thing with Austin. Austin might have come up with some of the stuff that got him over, but so did the writers, and so did the bookers, and so did Vince. Vince was as much apart of getting the concept of Hulkamania over as Terry Bollea was, maybe even more so because Vince had the balls to put Hulkamania on an International Stage by taking a chance with a relatively new concept known as Pay Per View.
This leads me too this: Creating a character, and getting over with the crowd is all subjective. It is a crap shoot. You put a bunch of ideas out there, and whatever the crowd picks up on, that is who you push, and that is who you book in the bigger spots, and write the better promos for. Going out there, and having the best match of the night, that is an art. That is something you can't fake, and that is why HBK is simply the best, and simply Mr. Wrestlemania. Oh, and FYI: The 8 PWI Match of the Year Awards that HBK have won with a match at Mania do not come from a group of editors sitting around, or one guy saying that is what he likes best, it comes from a Fan Poll. It comes from thousands of people saying "This is what we believe to be the best match of the year". That is something that can not be faked, and will never be replicated. That is why HBK is Mr. Wrestlemania.
No, I'm not a Hogan mark. I respect what he's done for the business, but I'm a fan of Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Hennig, Sting, and the Rock.
How about those three months that Shawn was champion before the nWo was even created? The ratings were poor, buyrates were pitiful, and Shawn was a terrible draw. Fact. Yeah, going against the nWo didn't help, but if he was as great of a draw as people like to make him out to be then he wouldn't have been drawing such as poor ratings. And Austin proved that you could beat the nWo, y'know.
No shit booking has part of it, but Hogan was charismatic as fuck and could get the crowd behind him. You put some non-charismatic fucker like Dean Malenko in that position and the gimmick fails. Hogan's charisma made him get over, and you know it.
Doesn't change the fact that it was one of the top 3 most memorable moments in wrestling HISTORY.
No shit, but you know who he had carry those PPV's? Hogan. Y'know who was a main factor in Wrestlemania becoming such a success? Hogan. Who had the charisma to get the 'Real American' gimmick over? Hogan.
Ok, but you have to have some charisma for the crowd to buy in it. Just because Hulk Hogan and Dean Malenko say the same thing doesn't mean it'll get over equally. Having Charisma and being able to connect with the crowd is just as important as getting the best promos.
Bullshit. Thats more fucking subjective then anything.
PWI is a kayfabe fucking magazine. They have no credibility. Besides, you fucking know that his match vs Mcmahon wasn't MOTY in 2006 and his match vs Diesel in 95 wasn't MOTY. It's just a bunch of marks that were voting for their favorite wrestler, aka Shawn. The Flair and Angle matches wouldn't be on my list, either. Flair/HBK wasn't even the best matche AT WM. Undertaker/Edge was. If you want some credible sources, check the Wrestling Observer. Wanna know how many PWI MOTY Shawn has at WM? 2. X and XXV.
Again, it's just a bunch of marks voting for their favorite wrestler. Fucking Austin/Rock from X-7 was 1000000 times better then TLC 2 but TLC 2 won it. Don't use kayfabe sources as 'attempted' proof because it just doesn't work.
And, like I said earlier, if Hogan doesn't help put WM on the map then there is no discussion of who's Mr. WM. Hogan started WM as the Super Bowl of Wrestling.
Miss Flawless
Why am I arguing with a computer?
Are we talking about fucking Mr. WM or best champion. Shawn Michaels definetly was not the best champion, IMO. But he is Mr. WM to me. Cause he puts on great matches. Hogan may be more memorable, but his matches aren't all that great. But thats just MY opinion....MYYYYY opinion. MINE!! Okay? ( I felt the need to put that in there a couple of times since you don't get it the first time I said in my other post.)
That's not what you said earlier...
Read that underlined part. You're trying to pass it off as fact, which it most certainly isn't. I can't change your opinion, but Hogan was apart in helping WM become one of the grandest spectacles ever. And I've adressed this time and time again, Hogan's matches were never going to match up with HBK b/c his opponents were a million times inferior, aside from maybe 2. However, Hogan's moments were more memorable then HBK's were, which is what WM is about: having the memorable moments.
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