WCW Boston: Round 1, Match 1: #4 John Cena vs. #61 Bryan Danielson
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klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'm sorry RVDgurl, but Danielson goes home in round one. John Cena is the absolute man right now. He's the biggest star int he biggest company while Danielson is the biggest star in an indy fed. Danielson will get some votes, but since most people don't know who he is, he goes home early.
If Danielson goes over, we riot. Cena is the best wrestler in the biggest company in the World. He's going to go down as one of the greatest of all time. He'll be talked about in the same breath as Hogan, Austin, Rocky, and Triple H. What exactly has Brian Danielson done? Nothing, nor will he ever.
Erm, Shocky, might want to reset the poll. Someone already voted.
Much as I would love to vote Danielson - the joke is that I actually wouldn't - Cena wins here. Maybe, just maybe, if we were in ECW's glorified indie environment, I might cut Danielson a little slack. But we're not, and Cena makes him his absolute bitch. The smark vote won't factor much in this tournament, so the champ is safe.
Danielson goes for one of his patented - and very exciting - restholds. Out of nowhere, Cena pulls out a new move. He's inventive like that. If you were to see it, there'd be no better way to describe it than "John Cena putting his foot so far up Brian Danielson's ass that his skull pops out".
Edit: Of course, this move being fatal, Cena probably wouldn't lose.
Much as I would love to vote Danielson - the joke is that I actually wouldn't - Cena wins here. Maybe, just maybe, if we were in ECW's glorified indie environment, I might cut Danielson a little slack. But we're not, and Cena makes him his absolute bitch. The smark vote won't factor much in this tournament, so the champ is safe.
Danielson goes for one of his patented - and very exciting - restholds. Out of nowhere, Cena pulls out a new move. He's inventive like that. If you were to see it, there'd be no better way to describe it than "John Cena putting his foot so far up Brian Danielson's ass that his skull pops out".
Edit: Of course, this move being fatal, Cena probably wouldn't lose.
The biggest wrestler in the business since Austin/Rock, a man who is going to go down as an all time legend. Aguably the hottest thing going in the business today in John Cena vs some curtain jerker who if in the WWE would be there to carry Cena's bags from the arena to the airport. "The Champ" is gonna demolish him.
Cena all the way. Cenas few high profile losses have almost always been at the hands of people his own size or bigger, and he simply wouldn't lose to Danielson. Cena always gets to the ropes quickly when he's in a hold, so Danielson's usual method of attack will be numbed. Cena demolishes him here.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Cena has everything going for him as being the biggest star in the bigger promotion. However, I believe Danielson can hold his own against Cena and they would put on a great match. I'll give the nod to Cena but don't count Danieslon out.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
If you vote Cena here you've completely been worked by the WWE - Danielson can do so much Cena can't that it's not even funny. He'd be a huge star if he was ever signed by the WWE, and compared to Cena's 5 moves, Danielson knows 500. He knows how to combat any opponent from anywhere, and wouldn't even be in a position for Cena to use his beloved 'F-U' or whatever it is they're calling it these days. Danielson goes though easily.
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I kid, I kid. Cena is the top of the business right now, who even knows who Danielson is? Only very recently did I look at some of his work when hearing abotu him on the forum. He's not awful, but he's not professional wrestling entertainment, Cena crushes him in every aspect of pro-wrestling.
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I kid, I kid. Cena is the top of the business right now, who even knows who Danielson is? Only very recently did I look at some of his work when hearing abotu him on the forum. He's not awful, but he's not professional wrestling entertainment, Cena crushes him in every aspect of pro-wrestling.
Well Danielson gets a preposterous level of hate on this forum. I've never for the life on me understood what he did to generate so much ire here. I think it's just because ""smarks"" like him, and people are desperate to prove that they arn't smarks.
Brian Danielson is one of the only American technical wrestlers of this generation who doesn't suck total ass. Somewhere along the line, guys in indy federations forgot what technical wrestling was supposed to look like, and turned it into some choreographed homoerotic dance. Check out that shitfest Saban and Shelly had recently to see my point.
Anyway, Danielson is phenomenally good at what he does. He's transcended the independent scene, and achieved a level of recognition that surpasses many telivision talents. Even people who've never watched RoH in their life (AKA me, I tried a couple of times, but it was too shit) know of the American Dragon.
I've also always protested that Danielson could function in Cena's position one hell of a lot more effectively than Cena could if he tried to work the indys.
We're supposed to be tipping our hats to kayfabe here, so I'll bring up that Danielson is better on the mat, has better technical skill, and has greater physical endurance than John Cena. On a more real note, he regularly goes longer, in more taxing matches than Cena, so I'm going to give him a cardio edge as well.
The only area that John Cena has a clearly visible edge is with regards to physical strength. There's no denying that, it's just a matter of how relevant that's going to be. I'd give Cena a fractional edge from a standing position, and Danielson a huge advantage on the ground.
I think I'm going to vote Danielson, just to protest all the people who are going to vote Cena on reflex, and then complain loudly about how Danielson has a bunch of blind interned supporters.
Brian Danielson is one of the only American technical wrestlers of this generation who doesn't suck total ass. Somewhere along the line, guys in indy federations forgot what technical wrestling was supposed to look like, and turned it into some choreographed homoerotic dance. Check out that shitfest Saban and Shelly had recently to see my point.
Anyway, Danielson is phenomenally good at what he does. He's transcended the independent scene, and achieved a level of recognition that surpasses many telivision talents. Even people who've never watched RoH in their life (AKA me, I tried a couple of times, but it was too shit) know of the American Dragon.
I've also always protested that Danielson could function in Cena's position one hell of a lot more effectively than Cena could if he tried to work the indys.
We're supposed to be tipping our hats to kayfabe here, so I'll bring up that Danielson is better on the mat, has better technical skill, and has greater physical endurance than John Cena. On a more real note, he regularly goes longer, in more taxing matches than Cena, so I'm going to give him a cardio edge as well.
The only area that John Cena has a clearly visible edge is with regards to physical strength. There's no denying that, it's just a matter of how relevant that's going to be. I'd give Cena a fractional edge from a standing position, and Danielson a huge advantage on the ground.
I think I'm going to vote Danielson, just to protest all the people who are going to vote Cena on reflex, and then complain loudly about how Danielson has a bunch of blind interned supporters.
Who is the greatest wrestler in the world?
The guy who is number one in the number one company on earth, or the man who is number one of a company that is just in the top ten?
John Cena goes over here, poor Danielson probably should have had a better starting position, but he met with the biggest guy in wrestling still active.
The guy who is number one in the number one company on earth, or the man who is number one of a company that is just in the top ten?
John Cena goes over here, poor Danielson probably should have had a better starting position, but he met with the biggest guy in wrestling still active.
Tough break for Brian Danielson, coming up against arguably the biggest superstar in the WWE at the moment. Cena wins here, it's not even close, Cena would be able to defeat Danielson. As said before, maybe if it was an ECW environment, Danielson might have a better chance, but he still would lose eventually. Cena has the massive fan base and mainstream wrestling audience behind him too. Being the top guy in the number 1 company is better than being top guy in a company who is the 3rd biggest atleast. Cena wins round 1. Danielson goes home here. Better luck next year.
Cena wins here. Sure Danielson is better on the mat, but Cena as many have said before me is the biggest star in the biggest company on earth. Cena will be one of the biggest legends of all time in a company that is number one on earth, while Danielson will only be the biggest star in a company that is at absolute most 3rd biggest.
Cena takes it hands down.
Cena takes it hands down.
This is like asking which team is better, Manchester United or *checks to see who is top of the 3rd highest league in English football...* Leicester City. Anyone with an IQ above 1 would say it's Manchester United, or in this case, the greatest wrestler on the planet, John Cena.
Klunderbunker
CENAtion
Little Jerry Lawler
Mrs KB
TM
Ravishing Richard Rude
Fizzywink
Anyone aside from me notice the laughable pattern here? Getting on towards a dozen declarations of support for Cena, and thus far, almost nobody has managed to come up with a better reason that "He's a WWE main eventer".
Could somebody explain to me how exactly "being the biggest star in the biggest company" helps someone win a match? Especially given that we're not even in that company. My memory may be a little hazy from the previous tournament, but as I recall we didn't run it as the Wrestlezone 'who sells the most merchandise' tournament.
There are valid arguments for Cena to win here. He's bigger, stronger, and resistant to submissions. I'd argue that Danielson has considerably more experience against credible opponents of Cena's size than vice-versa.
However; if people are going to vote exclusively for the bigger name, and then justify it by saying "but he's a bigger name", then it pretty much takes away the entire point of this thing.
Danielson is quicker, more technically sound, more versatile, has intentional and independent experience. He has more ways to finish a match and can do things in the ring that (like it of not) John Cena can't. It might not be cool to preach about technical ability (flexing your biceps and telling cock jokes seems to be the in thing at the moment) but in a tournament based on kayfabe ability, I think it merits mentioning.
Of course there's a perfectly valid argument to be made for John Cena.
...
Somebody make it.
CENAtion
Little Jerry Lawler
Mrs KB
TM
Ravishing Richard Rude
Fizzywink
Anyone aside from me notice the laughable pattern here? Getting on towards a dozen declarations of support for Cena, and thus far, almost nobody has managed to come up with a better reason that "He's a WWE main eventer".
Could somebody explain to me how exactly "being the biggest star in the biggest company" helps someone win a match? Especially given that we're not even in that company. My memory may be a little hazy from the previous tournament, but as I recall we didn't run it as the Wrestlezone 'who sells the most merchandise' tournament.
There are valid arguments for Cena to win here. He's bigger, stronger, and resistant to submissions. I'd argue that Danielson has considerably more experience against credible opponents of Cena's size than vice-versa.
However; if people are going to vote exclusively for the bigger name, and then justify it by saying "but he's a bigger name", then it pretty much takes away the entire point of this thing.
Danielson is quicker, more technically sound, more versatile, has intentional and independent experience. He has more ways to finish a match and can do things in the ring that (like it of not) John Cena can't. It might not be cool to preach about technical ability (flexing your biceps and telling cock jokes seems to be the in thing at the moment) but in a tournament based on kayfabe ability, I think it merits mentioning.
Of course there's a perfectly valid argument to be made for John Cena.
...
Somebody make it.
Gelgarin
The fact Danielson is 5'9" and under 200lbs, Cena can toss him around like a play thing. I'm not denying Danielson is a great wrestler, and can ground and pound Cena, put any hold he puts Cena in won't last. Danielson doesn't have anything that can put Cena away. Cena will have the crowd behind him too, as you said not many people watch ROH whilst everyone in a WWE arena knows Cena, and these days 95% love him. Cena hits the STF or Attitude Adjustment and it's over.
The fact Danielson is 5'9" and under 200lbs, Cena can toss him around like a play thing. I'm not denying Danielson is a great wrestler, and can ground and pound Cena, put any hold he puts Cena in won't last. Danielson doesn't have anything that can put Cena away. Cena will have the crowd behind him too, as you said not many people watch ROH whilst everyone in a WWE arena knows Cena, and these days 95% love him. Cena hits the STF or Attitude Adjustment and it's over.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
You see I give Gelgarin seems to be the only one making a decent argument here, it doesn't fucking matter if you are the biggest name in the history of wrestling or just some indy guy, the idea is that you should be looking at and voting based solely on what you think they can do in the ring, so say Danielson wouldn't put up a good fight simply because he's in ROH and Cena is the top guy in the top wrestling promotion in all the world, that doesn't fucking matter, how is him being a WWE main eventer make him better in the ring than Daneilson, if Danielson manages to get Cena on the mat and then lock him in the Cattle Mutilation how does Cena counter out of that?, I'm by no means am saying Danielson deserves to go over on Cena, I too beleive Cena would win the match, hell Cena has already beaten Danielson once, what I'm saying is that people should stop using the awards, titles and achievements that wrestlers have accomplished through out their careers thus far, and start looking at their ring work, you should be viewing this in "kayfabe vision"
Brian Danielson has managed to have long and competitive matches with plenty of opponents bigger and more powerful than John Cena. Takeshi Morishima is 320lb, and a far more dangerous brawler than John Cena, and Danielson was able to have a perfectly competitive match with him without getting "tossed around like a play thing".
As for the arena, we're in WCW, a location where both man have never wrestled. That being said, I'll throw my money behind the man who's spent a lifetime appearing in different promotions under different circumstances, instead of the guy who's been safely contained inside the same umbrella organisation for most of his life.
Okay.
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If we're going with the "kayfabe" approach, then this is a no-brainer. Cena has already beaten Danielson in approximately 4 minutes, and did so before he was even HALF the worker that he is now. Since that match in 2003, we've seen Cena rise to the very top of the WWE, and put on some of the greatest matches, and overcome some of the greatest odds in years.
Cena beat Danielson in 2003, and has only gotten immensely better.
Now, if you want to go from a business model look, then Cena wins again. He's incredibly versatile when working with opponents (great matches against RVD, HBK, Lashley, Umaga, etc...that's a large variety of styles), he's put on some of the best matches in the decades, he plays a great character, and is so good that fans like him more than any other worker.
No matter HOW you slice this, Cena comes out the winner.
Ah, I was mistaken with the arena, forgive me. Fair point but is Takeshi Morishima in the same league as Cena? I think not.
Maybe I was over the top with "tossed around like a play thing", it will be a long competitive match, but what can Danielson hit that will put Cena away? Danielson's submission will not work, Cena cannot be put away by submission. Cena can take beatings from the biggest, strongest wrestlers and still win. He can take everything from Danielson, and eventually will hit the Attitude Adjustment for the win. If yu can't put a wrestler away, you can not win a match.
It is a tough first round match for Cena, but he will progress.
The only reason you don't think Takeshi Morishima is in the same league as Cena, is because as we've already established, you unthinkingly subscribe to the philosophy that the biggest name is automatically better. Since the whole point of my post is to dispute that logic, I'm going to disregard that as an argument.
I'm pretty sure John Cena has tapped out multiple times in his career, but even if you ignore that, you're seriously underestimating Danielson is you think submissions are his only way to win a match. If anything, American Dragon has a much better record of kicking out of big moves that John Cena does.
Ahh Slyfox. And here I was thinking that you were going to take my side. (Go on, you played a big part in turning this forum into a Cena haven, £10 says you can't turn it back.)
I was hoping to draw somebody into a war of words, I'd forgotten about that bloody video. Anyhow, in a face saving attempt, I'll mention that Danielson gets far and away the majority of the offence there, so I don't think we can take it as an unshakable confirmation of this matches result.
Cena was actually much further along as a star than Danielson at this point. Cena was in the midst of his first main event push, whilst Danielson was still unknown to anybody not a die hard follower of the indy scene.
Since then both guys have moved forward a great deal, and since we have that lovely 'in their prime' defence clause, I'm going to lay that footage to rest.
I thought his match with Lashley absolutely stunk, but that's hardly relevant. Cena has also had his share of mediocre matches. In contrast, with one recent example, I don't recall of a single match Danielson had in RoH that didn't blow the roof of the place, and the Ring of Honour crowd is considerably harder to please. In terms of styles, Danielson's fought plenty of technicians, brawlers, powerhouses, heavyweights, cruiserweights and showmen. He's fought American style, and also held his own fighting puroresu. He's performed internationally for many different companies, and in terms of versatility, has John Cena banged to rights.
The only way to judge match quality is by the reaction of the crowd. Danielson wins, he only got booed when he was a heel.
As I recall, last year we used to stamp the words "not a popularity content" onto every poll.
I'd make a joke about slicing it through Cena's carotid artery... but I don't want to.
So, basically, what you are saying is that the video pretty much KILLS your entire argument, as they have actually faced off once, and Cena won?Ahh Slyfox. And here I was thinking that you were going to take my side. (Go on, you played a big part in turning this forum into a Cena haven, £10 says you can't turn it back.)
I was hoping to draw somebody into a war of words, I'd forgotten about that bloody video. Anyhow, in a face saving attempt, I'll mention that Danielson gets far and away the majority of the offence there, so I don't think we can take it as an unshakable confirmation of this matches result.
Cena was actually much further along as a star than Danielson at this point. Cena was in the midst of his first main event push, whilst Danielson was still unknown to anybody not a die hard follower of the indy scene.
Since then both guys have moved forward a great deal, and since we have that lovely 'in their prime' defence clause, I'm going to lay that footage to rest.
You're one of the few. Hell, I remember Jim Ross the next night on Raw just singing its praises up and down all night long. That's the reason I wound up watching it in the first place.
But not on the big shows. On Raw? Yes, just like everyone. On the PPV shows, he's money.
I haven't seen a Danielson match yet that DIDN'T suck. Hell, some of his most praised matches are terrible bouts. Take his match with Nigel from Unified. What a piss bucket match. Somewhere around these forums I did a big review of it and why it sucked. If you are really curious go find it. I've seen Danielson work with Morishima, Nigel, Spanky, and a couple others that I can't remember now. I've not ONCE seen a match that I thought was anything other than sub-part.
AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No offense, Gelgarin, but that's one of the silliest things I've ever read from you. ROH fans are sheep. They're going to blindly praise any match from one of their wrestling gods, regardless of the quality. ROh fans are simpletons. Do a couple unrealistic grapple exchanges, a couple high risk moves, and the ROH crowd loves you. Never mind whether or not your match incorporates anything in the way of logic or quality...those ROH fans are going to love you anyway.
Performing bad matches with different opponents doesn't make you versatile, it makes you bad. Those matches I named were GOOD MATCHES. There's a difference.
Then Cena wins this one in a walk, as there is NO ONE in wrestling who elicits as much response to his character in matches from as many fans as does Cena. No one.
Just because Danielson can make 200 pimply faced nerds who live in their mother's basement posting on chan boards ejaculate in their pants, doesn't make him a good worker. Put Danielson in front of 80,000 people like Cena has, and you'd hear crickets.
But, in professional wrestling, if we're not going by kayfabe standards, then how else do you measure the quality of a worker?
The whole point of wrestling is to entertain people to the point they are willing to fork over their hard earned dollars to watch you. Since Cena does that FAR better than Danielson, then Cena is the better worker.
Fine, fine. I knew getting into my first wrestlezone argument with you was going to be a mistake! It's like walking into a wrestling ring and calling out the Undertaker before you have squashed Jimmy Wang Yang. Let's see...
Watch the video, I know you are disregarding it due to both coming on leaps and bound since, but hear me out. Danielson does indeed get in most of the attacks, but as soon as Cena wanted to win, he got the win, with a move that's nothing more than a weak signature these days. The match they would have these dayswould mirror that one, but nothing Danielson did hurt Cena much. Since then Danielson's reportoire has gotten better, but so has Cena's resistance.
Danielson can take a beating, but I personally can't see him kicking out of the Attitude Adjustment, which WILL eventually score in this contest. I have seen Danielson's stuff, I'm not denying his move set is quite impressive, but he has nothing devastating enough to put Cena down. This is the Cena that has kicked out of pretty much every major move in the WWE at some point or another. The moves Danielson has kicked out of aren't in the same league as the ones Cena has.
My final argument is that CM Punk is regarded in the same estee, as Danielson, and CM Punk wouldn't be able to put Cena away.
Watch the video, I know you are disregarding it due to both coming on leaps and bound since, but hear me out. Danielson does indeed get in most of the attacks, but as soon as Cena wanted to win, he got the win, with a move that's nothing more than a weak signature these days. The match they would have these dayswould mirror that one, but nothing Danielson did hurt Cena much. Since then Danielson's reportoire has gotten better, but so has Cena's resistance.
Danielson can take a beating, but I personally can't see him kicking out of the Attitude Adjustment, which WILL eventually score in this contest. I have seen Danielson's stuff, I'm not denying his move set is quite impressive, but he has nothing devastating enough to put Cena down. This is the Cena that has kicked out of pretty much every major move in the WWE at some point or another. The moves Danielson has kicked out of aren't in the same league as the ones Cena has.
My final argument is that CM Punk is regarded in the same estee, as Danielson, and CM Punk wouldn't be able to put Cena away.
That video didn't help, but I think I can work around it.
When was the last time Jim Ross came out and said "Hey, remember that title match last night? It fucking sucked!". But anyway, what I, you or Cowboy Jim Ross thought of the match is irrelevant. Point dropped.
And I've almost never seen a match from Cena, Hogan, Austin or Triple H that I didn't think was bland and predictable. The difference is, I'm not so blind to the idea of subjective entertainment. The purpose of a worker is to entertain the crowd in front of him. Danielson has always done that, Cena hasn't.
I hope you'll forgive me, I cut out your manic laughter, I didn't think it showed you in a flattering light. Anyway, I'm getting flash backs to that entertaining "The WWE should buy out all the indy feds" thread you made and then backed away form, becasue you're getting into an area where you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
The RoH fans are the hardest to please outside of Japan. The whole point is that they're not sheep. On any given day, there is no predicting who they will cheer, and who they'll boo. In RoH its commonplace for a babyface to loose the backing of the crowd is he grows stale, and any heel who can't work as one (RVD as an example to draw some common ground) runs the risk of getting pops and being forced to turn.
The RoH fans are also much less patient with you. If they get bored during a match, they'll let the talent know. If they don't like an angle, they'll let the bookers know. RoH is fiscally dependent on its crowd and as such, any talent who succeeds there has to be much, much more reliable when working a crowd.
What you cannot get in Ring of Honour, is a 'top face' who gets extensively booed by sections of the crowd. Ring of Honour isn't fiscally stable enough to just go "Year... ... Well you don't understand wrestling!!!" and move on.
Given that the average IQ at a Ring of Honour event is almost certainly higher than at a WWE TV taping (like you said, its a nerd heavy audience, although I don't see the negativity in that), I'm going to suggest that they understand perfectly well what they're seeing, and what they're seeing is Bryan Danielson being the most over guy in the company, night after night.
No there isn't. A good match is one that entertains to crowd. I can't speak for his puroresu work, but everywhere else he's performed he's got a wholly positive reaction from those in attendance.
You've really never met the ring of honour fan base have you?
I am going by Kayfabe standards. That's rather the point.
I don't do sports metaphors, but if I were to say to you "nameless sports team A" defeated "nameless sports team B" four years ago, I don't think you'd be confident going out and betting all your money on the result of their next encounter. It would sure as hell make the upcoming Lesnar V Meir (or whoever the hall that guy is, I ignore MMA) less exciting.
If we're taking guys in their prime, then a meaningless match four years ago doesn't mean anything. During his prime, Danielson defeated far more workers, in far more locations than Cena. (I'd estimate that for every one name Cena gets a victory over in a year, Danielson knocks off a dozen)
Danielson has a kayfabe advantage in a singnificant number of areas, and has far more experience working against guys like Cena, than Cena has with guys like Danielson.
I think we've both known me long enough to know that I have a fully functioning brain. I'm not trying to claim that Danielson is a more valuable financial asset that Cena. But that's not what we're voting on.
In a keyfabe contest, in both guys prime, there's a legitimate argument to be made.
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