Round 2, Day 6

[Slyfox696]

Bored you. The lack of crowd responce doesn't bother me. Sure he's only over because of his comedy sidekick. But at his age he's only there to show the youngsters how to go. What would Lashley be like if he hadn't had Finlay to hold his hand during his first big feud?

But how can you say a guy who was so boring and that few people cared about is better and more deserving than a guy who is far and away the most cared about wrestler in the company? Who has put on quality match after quality match.

You're basing your support on the fact that he's knowledgeable and a good teacher, but that really has little to do with his actual quality in the ring.

You don't. But other people do. If Cena wasn't pushed as hard as he is then he'd probably win the whole tournament. But considering he's the main focus on Raw, and has been for several years, that's only going to make people resent him. Even if he's improving and having consitently good matches.

So, Finlay is better because he's not cared about, isn't given a push, and because John Cena is the biggest draw in the company?

I honestly don't see how people can vote for Finlay.

 

[Slyfox696]

Says the guy that claims the only evidence of cruiserweights being good is if they make it into the recent WWE main event, and of wrestlers being good if they sell merchandise and draw a crowd.

I've never said that the only way cruiserweights are good is if they make the WWE main-event, and yes you cannot be a good wrestler if people don't care about you. That's the core element of professional wrestling. Making people emotionally invested in you. And, if people don't care about you, then you're not a good wrestler.

Honestly though, in a match with no ladders and little potential for the climbing of tall objects, Lynn has this one in the bag. Well, obviously not, seeing as the Hardy marks are coming out in force, but still...

How do you figure? Which match of Jerry Lynn's is anything better than a general Jeff Hardy match?

And if you say his match with RVD, you deserve to have you vote pulled, because those matches are the definition of illogical spotfests, which is the main thing people are trying to hold against Hardy.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

But how can you say a guy who was so boring and that few people cared about is better and more deserving than a guy who is far and away the most cared about wrestler in the company? Who has put on quality match after quality match.

Finlay puts on quality match after quality match. Yeah Cena's get more of a reaction. But a reaction doesn't make a match better, it makes a match appear better. Watch Finlay vs. Khali or Cena vs. Khali with the sound off. Both quality, despie the shitty opponent.

You're basing your support on the fact that he's knowledgeable and a good teacher, but that really has little to do with his actual quality in the ring.

Cause it does. Teachers teach people who can't wrestle how to wrestle. Somebody had to teach Cena how to do it, just as Finlay didn't learn by pure chance.

So, Finlay is better because he's not cared about, isn't given a push, and because John Cena is the biggest draw in the company?

Well Finlay is given a push. It just isn't as strong as Cena's. Finlay's cared about. Maybe not by the younger fans. But older fans appreciate him. And this tournament isn't about the biggest draw. If it was Hogan and Austin would be in the final. It's debateable weather Cena would get past the likes of HHH, Randy Savage, Andre or Japanese superstars.

I honestly don't see how people can vote for Finlay.

There's a poll. I voted Finlay. It was hard. Damned Parkinsons.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Being a good wrestler involves being able to be entertaining. And Finlay has never found a time where he was much more than be a walking snooze fest.

what people view as entertaining differs from person to person. some people like high risk moves, some like a guy pumping up his shoes, others hardcore style and others mat wrestling.
Finlay, for all the brawling and hardcore wrestling in his past, is a very good mat wrestler and i found his match with chris benoit a few years ago one of the best i'd seen for a long time.

as regards to the crowd response, if he got no response people wouldnt boo or cheer him. he'd be like charlie haas.

Cena's the biggest draw in the company because he sells merchandise to kids and females. now i'm by no means a businessman, but last time i checked, it was good business to promote the guy who's likely to make most money. why else would wwe not care cena's getting booed the majority of males? i'm not denying that Cena is good at working the crowd and always gives everything in the ring because not many do it better. but he's there because cena = money.

If Cena wasn't pushed as hard as he is then he'd probably win the whole tournament. But considering he's the main focus on Raw, and has been for several years, that's only going to make people resent him. Even if he's improving and having consitently good matches.

i know that personally i'm a little sick of cena's push and it's put me off him. not his fault but it happens.

Cena would go over in this match, as much as i'd rather it were finlay

 

[Slyfox696]

Finlay puts on quality match after quality match. Yeah Cena's get more of a reaction. But a reaction doesn't make a match better, it makes a match appear better. Watch Finlay vs. Khali or Cena vs. Khali with the sound off. Both quality, despie the shitty opponent.



Cause it does. Teachers teach people who can't wrestle how to wrestle. Somebody had to teach Cena how to do it, just as Finlay didn't learn by pure chance.



Well Finlay is given a push. It just isn't as strong as Cena's. Finlay's cared about. Maybe not by the younger fans. But older fans appreciate him. And this tournament isn't about the biggest draw. If it was Hogan and Austin would be in the final. It's debateable weather Cena would get past the likes of HHH, Randy Savage, Andre or Japanese superstars.



There's a poll. I voted Finlay. It was hard. Damned Parkinsons.

Let me just ask this. On what basis did you vote Finlay? And don't say because he's "better", explain that. Because, it's coming off to me that you are voting for him because he's a good trainer. Am I getting that accurate?

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Let me just ask this. On what basis did you vote Finlay? And don't say because he's "better", explain that. Because, it's coming off to me that you are voting for him because he's a good trainer. Am I getting that accurate?

No. I'm voting for him because I enjoy him. Which is the same reason everybody votes for whoever they like. It's the same reason you would vote for Hulk Hogan over Kenta Kobashi.

As for being a good trainer, that's a guess. I've never been trained by him. But I do know that Trish when to him as a big old smelly pile of dog shit and she came out as a little fragrant piece of rabbit poo.

 

[X]

Okay Slyfox, inform us of exactly how terrible the spot transitions are in any of the RVD-Lynn matches. Pick any one you choose, and explain to us how it's bad.

You say to be a good wrestler is to have the fans care about you. Well the fans in ECW sure cared alot about Jerry Lynn. Same with the fans of TNA. And now here comes your typical response of "But they're just bingo halls...blah blah blah blah bullshit blah blah blah".

Jeff Hardy vs. Umaga....a good match? Please. That was crap. As is any non-gimmick Jeff Hardy match. I ask you to name 10 moves, you come up with 20 different variations on the same move. Wow, he can do a Swanton, five different kinds of drop kicks/leg drops, his brother's finishing move....and headlocks. Holy shit. What a worker.

The fact that you're saying that people's "vote should be pulled" while you continue to preach this illogical and ridiculious bullshit is pretty ironic. Because you're wrong here Slyfox. No ifs ands or buts, you are wrong. And any fucking person in the business would slap you across the face for even daring to say that Jeff Hardy is a better worker then Jerry Lynn.

 

[Slyfox696]

Okay Slyfox, inform us of exactly how terrible the spot transitions are in any of the RVD-Lynn matches. Pick any one you choose, and explain to us how it's bad.

Guilty as Charged, last ECW show. RVD returns.

[youtube]0Tef_cr0iPM[/youtube]
First, after Lynn beats on RVD for a bit, they go into a completely and obviously choreographed sequence, complete with rolling over backs, split leg drops, and everything else. Totally choreographed, totally fake looking. Happens around the 3 minute mark.

[youtube]sI7J5uYEq4o[/youtube]
First 15 seconds of video, instead of having a logical reason to having Lynn in a spot to be put on the guard rail, RVD has to drag him to it, and then front suplexes him on it. I have the video paused, but I'm pretty sure I already know whats coming. Let's see if I'm right...yup, twisting leg drop off the apron. Saw it the moment he picked him up in a suplex position. No we get 30 seconds of absolute nothing, where as the logical and realistic thing to do would be to capitalize on your advantage. Instead, RVD waits in the ring, just so he can kick Lynn on his way in. At the 1:25 mark, we get a nice RVD combo, but after getting a near 3 fall pin, RVD instead gets up and walks around for a good 30 seconds, once again illogically not taking advantage of his downed opponent.

At the 2:00 mark, this is just where it gets silly. RVD irish whips Lynn into the corner, and then waits for Lynn to get himself situated on the top rope. When Lynn is finally done getting to where he's supposed to be, RVD then ROLLS towards the corner, just so they can have a big spot of Lynn clotheslining RVD. This is what is known as TERRIBLE transition. Around the 3 minute mark, RVD tries to go for a shoulder block through the ring ropes, and luckily for Lynn as he jumps and turns into a legdrop, RVD just waits for him to come down. Thank goodness RVD waited because otherwise that just wouldn't have looked right. Around the 5:25 mark, RVD, after getting pummeled for the last 2 minutes, suddenly gets amazing reserve and reverses an irish whip and goes to shoulder block again...misses again...and again waits for Lynn to come down to do a roll-up. Lynn must have lucked out again thanks to RVD just waiting to get rolled up. A nice botch at 5:55. Another poor transition at 6:30, as Lynn has been strong for the last 5 minutes and RVD been getting beaten, but as Lynn grabs RVD's leg, RVD has enough energy and Lynn apparently is hurt enough (somehow..)to take a spinning back kick to the face, even after RVD rolled his leg over. After a RVD pin attempt at 6:45, the next 45 seconds of the match are all dedicated towards the OBVIOUS next spot, the skateboard to the face. This is a TERRIBLE transition as it's obvious and it has no flow. Which seems to be the general feeling from this match as there is absolutely no flow to it at all...a prime example of poor transitions. Another ridiculous spot at 7:50, as RVD whips Lynn to the corner, goes to hit him with the chair but irrationally drops the chair, jumps onto the ropes and then waits there so Lynn can jump on the ropes to deliver a powerbomb on the chair RVD dropped. Choreographed as hell, as fake as can be, and poorly transitioned to.

[youtube]N2cA-QOZQos[/youtube]

After this we can several seconds of nothingness, 30 seconds of fast action, and we're back to nothingness again. That 30 seconds of fast action is a spot, and the nothingness on either side is poor transitions...and we're not even in the first minute of part three. At about 1:40, Lynn puts a chair in the ring, has his irish whip reversed and as RVD goes for a back body drop, Lynn counters it, and just SOOO coincidentally, manages to hit RVD with a DDT on the chair. Amazing coincidences in this match. Poor transition, makes the match look fake. Lynn misses a chair shot at 3:30, and then for some reason decides to bring it in front of his face as RVD kicks him. Bad luck for Lynn there. Now, we get MORE laying around on the mat. Notice the lack of flow to the match, as it's a repeated routine of spot, nothingness, spot, nothingness, spot, nothingness, etc.? Yeah, that's called poor transitions. Now, at 4:00 RVD rolls Lynn to the corner...anyone want to take a guess at what's coming next? I bet I know, let's see if I'm right. Looks like I was right...Van Terminator. What's amazing about this is how Lynn dominates the entire match, and then is SOO hurt that he is completely unable to move out of the way for FORTY-FIVE SECONDS!...again, poor transitions. Finally, after 30 seconds of laying on the mat (which I don't understand since RVD shouldn't be hurt from kicking someone else in the face), we get the final pin.

This match is terrible, and is nothing more than a repeated pattern of spot, nothing, spot, nothing, spot, nothing..on and on and on.

Now, he's what I want YOU to do. Explain to me how that was a "technical masterpiece". Hell, explain to me how that was technical wrestling at all.

Go ahead and say all you want that Lynn is better than Hardy, but don't try to convince fans using the RVD matches. Because those matches are piss poor, and the only reason people watch them is because of the pretty flips and moves...which is exactly what people criticize Hardy for.

Jeff Hardy vs. Umaga....a good match? Please. That was crap.

Feel free to critique this match as I did yours. I realize there is some difference due to time and commercial, but go ahead. Notice the story told in the match, even as short as it was. Notice how, with the exception of 1 or 2 parts, everything flows together and all makes logical and realistic sense. Even the Whisper in the Wind wasn't as dumb as it usually is. It's a good match. Face it.

[youtube]oaMSIIwwV2I[/youtube]

I ask you to name 10 moves, you come up with 20 different variations on the same move. Wow, he can do a Swanton, five different kinds of drop kicks/leg drops, his brother's finishing move....and headlocks. Holy shit. What a worker.

What the hell does moves have to do with good wrestling anyways? I did that just to appease you. It still has nothing to do with being a good wrestler.

The fact that you're saying that people's "vote should be pulled" while you continue to preach this illogical and ridiculious bullshit is pretty ironic.

What's illogical about it? People are criticizing Hardy for working the same exact style of match as Jerry Lynn. THAT'S what is illogical. Say you like Lynn more because ECW was better than WWE. Say you like Lynn more because he has bigger muscles. Just don't say you like Lynn more because Jeff Hardy is a spotmonkey because Lynn is every bit of the spot wrestler Hardy is.

And any fucking person in the business would slap you across the face for even daring to say that Jeff Hardy is a better worker then Jerry Lynn.

Except for the ones who book and promote shows.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

I went with John Cena. Finaly gets himself Disqualified in 5 minutes.

 

[ShowTyme]

I voted for Finlay. And yes Im a Cena-hater but thats not why I voted for Finlay. I love that Irish bastard. One of the first heels I ever liked. I saw him in WCW with that mullet, kicking ass, and made me realize that mat wrestling and brawling are entertaining to.

Honestly, Id love to see this in WWE. I dont lke Finlay as a face, just not his thing. Turn him back heel without Hornswoggle, bring him to RAW, give him the push because he could handle it, and have a Cena/Finlay feud. IT would actually be entertaining.

 

[X]

Guilty as Charged, last ECW show. RVD returns.

[youtube]0Tef_cr0iPM[/youtube]
First, after Lynn beats on RVD for a bit, they go into a completely and obviously choreographed sequence, complete with rolling over backs, split leg drops, and everything else. Totally choreographed, totally fake looking. Happens around the 3 minute mark.

...You're kidding me right? What exactly about that looks fake? "Totally choreographed"...really? And you would know this how? You booked the match huh? How does that look choreographed? Its your opinion, not fact. It doesn't look choreographed at all to me, it looks like the classic warming out phase between two bitter rivals that know every move in their opponents arsenal. Completely and totally realistic, would you rather RVD comes in and just starts squashing Lynn? Once again you're calling your opinion as gospel. And you're wrong. And your argument of "it looks fake"? So does everything else in every wrestling match in the history of wrestling. Because it is fake. Did you forget?

[youtube]sI7J5uYEq4o[/youtube]
First 15 seconds of video, instead of having a logical reason to having Lynn in a spot to be put on the guard rail, RVD has to drag him to it, and then front suplexes him on it.

How is that even slightly illogical? Suplexing someone onto hard steel is illogical in a wrestling match? How? Isn't the goal to hurt your opponent? Seems to me like grabbing them and ramming their chest into a steel barricade would hurt. Completely logical, and makes perfect sense given the fact that this is an ECW match. Are we even watching the same match here?

I have the video paused, but I'm pretty sure I already know whats coming. Let's see if I'm right...yup, twisting leg drop off the apron. Saw it the moment he picked him up in a suplex position.

So did I. Maybe because it's one of RVD's signature moves perhaps? Are you serious here Slyfox, you're criticizing RVD for using one of his signature moves? So I guess every Hogan match from the 80s is terrible too, considering I can predict exactly what's going to happen on a move-by-move basis in the final minute of every Hogan match. Your argument makes no sense. You're criticizing RVD for using a move he always does and because you've seen so much wrestling you can predict things. How is that Lynn or RVD's fault?

No we get 30 seconds of absolute nothing, where as the logical and realistic thing to do would be to capitalize on your advantage. Instead, RVD waits in the ring, just so he can kick Lynn on his way in. At the 1:25 mark, we get a nice RVD combo, but after getting a near 3 fall pin, RVD instead gets up and walks around for a good 30 seconds, once again illogically not taking advantage of his downed opponent.

Once again, you act like you've never seen a wrestling match before. Maybe he's in the ring for that 30 seconds celebrating because he just made his return and is one of the biggest stars in the company and the crowd is chanting his name at the top of their lungs? Could that be the crazy explanation? Maybe because ECW had an emphasis on sportsmanship in wrestling, and many many times in a match the opponent would wait for the other man to get up instead of attacking him when he's down? Clearly you're not very familiar with ECW or RVD's tenure there. Another completely illogical OPINION.

At the 2:00 mark, this is just where it gets silly. RVD irish whips Lynn into the corner, and then waits for Lynn to get himself situated on the top rope. When Lynn is finally done getting to where he's supposed to be, RVD then ROLLS towards the corner, just so they can have a big spot of Lynn clotheslining RVD. This is what is known as TERRIBLE transition.

Waits for Lynn to get on the top rope? If by wait you mean wait all of 0.4 seconds then yes, god forbid he wait any more then less then half a second before going after his opponent. Thats real illogical alright, because everyone knows that RVD is the fastest man on the planet after all. You say "when Lynn finally gets where he's supposed to be" like this process took more then two seconds. Are you high or something, because you seem to be seeing things in slow motion. And then you criticize RVD for rolling over to the corner after Lynn...once again, this is one of the cornerstones of RVD's wrestling. He's done it twenty thousand times before. Yet this time it sucks according to you. This seems to be becoming a pattern; you keep criticizing them for doing what they've always done.

Around the 3 minute mark, RVD tries to go for a shoulder block through the ring ropes, and luckily for Lynn as he jumps and turns into a legdrop, RVD just waits for him to come down. Thank goodness RVD waited because otherwise that just wouldn't have looked right.

Once again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with how this "spot" (if you apparently want to call something as simple as that a "spot") is done. You're critcisms aren't making any sense at all. It looked completely realistic, as realistic as pro wrestling (which in case you've forgotten is fake) can be.

Around the 5:25 mark, RVD, after getting pummeled for the last 2 minutes, suddenly gets amazing reserve and reverses an irish whip and goes to shoulder block again...misses again...and again waits for Lynn to come down to do a roll-up.

Okay now you're just being ridiculious. Unless you watch every single wrestling match expecting for it to be Steamboat-Savage and am utterly disgusted when it's not, there is NOTHIGN wrong with this. "Amazing reserve"? I didn't know reversing an irish whip was similiar to Hulking up and no-selling. "Waits" for Lynn to do a roll-up....come the fuck on Slyfox, this is bullshit, you're seriously just arguing for the sake of it. If you really think there is something wrong with a man waiting half of a second as he is rolled up, then throw out every god damn wrestling tape or DVD you own because you will never, ever, ever, EVER see a wrestling show in which that EXACT move isn't replicated.

A nice botch at 5:55.

God forbid someone botch. I forgot that no one in wrestling history except for RVD and Jerry Lynn have ever botched a move in their life. My bad on that one, how crazy of me. The fact that you even noticed that supposed "botch" makes it really very clear that you watched this match without even giving it a chance to be good, but instead went in thinking "Okay this match is terrible, now lets find every little tiny miniscule thing I can and criticize them for it". How much do you want to bet I'll find the EXACT same things in the Umaga-Hardy match?

Another poor transition at 6:30, as Lynn has been strong for the last 5 minutes and RVD been getting beaten, but as Lynn grabs RVD's leg, RVD has enough energy and Lynn apparently is hurt enough (somehow..)to take a spinning back kick to the face, even after RVD rolled his leg over. After a RVD pin attempt at 6:45, the next 45 seconds of the match are all dedicated towards the OBVIOUS next spot, the skateboard to the face.

I really just have to keep repeating myself here. WHY ARE YOU CRITICIZING RVD FOR DOING ONE OF HIS SIGNATURE MOVES? How is that a poor transition? Looks perfectly fine to me. RVD and Lynn have been wrestling now for a good 10-11 minutes or so, so why wouoldn't Lynn be tired? There is absolutely nothing wrong with this transition, and you're simply just making things up at this point to sound like you're right. OBVIOUS next spot huh? You seem to be the only one thats obvious to. RVD grabs a chair and that must automatically mean he's going to do the skateboard-chairshot right? After all, thats the only move that RVD has ever done with a chair before right? It's not like one of his most famous moves involves a chair, which isn't displayed there.

This is a TERRIBLE transition as it's obvious and it has no flow. Which seems to be the general feeling from this match as there is absolutely no flow to it at all...a prime example of poor transitions. Another ridiculous spot at 7:50, as RVD whips Lynn to the corner, goes to hit him with the chair but irrationally drops the chair, jumps onto the ropes and then waits there so Lynn can jump on the ropes to deliver a powerbomb on the chair RVD dropped. Choreographed as hell, as fake as can be, and poorly transitioned to.

I can't even respond to this anymore. Read the last eight responses I've made. Perfectly fine transition, spots make sense, nothing looks even slightly choreographed except for the large spots, which would make sense considering they always are choreographed in every match in any federation.

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your supposed analysis of this match, just read the above again because it's the same exact thing.

This match is terrible, and is nothing more than a repeated pattern of spot, nothing, spot, nothing, spot, nothing..on and on and on.

Wow I didn't realize moves such as kicks, punches, body slams, etc were considered spots. Man. I guess every match ever wrestled is a spotfest then huh?

Now, he's what I want YOU to do. Explain to me how that was a "technical masterpiece". Hell, explain to me how that was technical wrestling at all.

Funny, did I say this match was a technical masterpiece? No I did not. Jerry Lynn and RVD wrestled several times, and this wasn't my favorite of their matches nor the one I was referring to as a technical masterpiece, that would be the RVD-Lynn match from Living Dangerously 99.

Go ahead and say all you want that Lynn is better than Hardy, but don't try to convince fans using the RVD matches. Because those matches are piss poor, and the only reason people watch them is because of the pretty flips and moves...which is exactly what people criticize Hardy for.

Why? Everyone I've ever spoken to whos ever seen the two wrestle each other has said they're some of the best matches they've ever seen. You seem to be in the minority here (which you continuously remind us doesn't matter; so therefore your opinion here is worthless isn't it, since you're in the minority?). I think I'll trust me and every other wrestling fan I've ever spoken to's opinions over someone in such a miniscule minority as yourself.

Feel free to critique this match as I did yours. I realize there is some difference due to time and commercial, but go ahead. Notice the story told in the match, even as short as it was. Notice how, with the exception of 1 or 2 parts, everything flows together and all makes logical and realistic sense. Even the Whisper in the Wind wasn't as dumb as it usually is. It's a good match. Face it.

[youtube]oaMSIIwwV2I[/youtube]

I'm sorry, was that match supposed to entertain me? I was busy falling asleep. I noticed the "story" told in the match. Its the same exact story told in every single match pitting a large man against a small man. Completely and utterly predictable, I knew exactly what was going to happen this entire match from start to finish. Umaga dominates, Jeff gets in some quick and sneaky moves, Jeff salvages the win just barely, overcoming the odds. Yawn. Seen it a million times before, and I've seen it done a million times better before. Everything flows together the exact same way that everything flowed together in the Lynn-RVD match. Further more, these two matches are COMPLETELY different styles of matches, and therefore shouldn't be compared. You're comparing a big man-little man match against a little man-little man No DQ battle. The Whisper in the Wind was placed at its usual place.

Whats good about this match? Its the same exact match that Umaga has been competing in since he came to the WWE. EXACTLY the same. It's entirely predictable too, and since it's predictable, by your theory, it must be a shitty match.

Whats even more hilarious about that match, is the way it ends. Jeff Hardy kicks Umaga, a man who has demolished world champions left and right before, and somehow the 2 foot drop off the turnbuckle and the incredibly weak looking cover by Jeff Hardy is enough to win the match. You want to criticize matches for poor transitions and bad spots, this is by far the saddest excuse for the ending of a match I've seen in years. Man, do you wear those WWE-tinted sunglasses everywhere you go Sly or what? Because that match was shit. Utter shit.

Except for the ones who book and promote shows.

And you would know, being such good friends with them all. Must I go find my own PWI quote like the one in your signature to show you the immense respect that people have for Jerry Lynn in the business? Because its a TON more respect then they have for Jeff Hardy.

Thanks for wasting 15 minutes of my life Slyfox. For someone who preaches enjoying the simplicity of wrestling in its storytelling and etc, you sure as hell over-analyze every single move in a wrestling match to death.

 

[ShowTyme]

wow. Why is Lynn the lower seed? Hes very entertaining in a match, and can tell a story in the squared cirlce with the best of them. His mic skills are where he lacks the goods. But on theother side, Jeff Hardy, while I admit he has improved both outside and inside the ring since his latest return, hes still not the better wrestler. His push is sort of like a "this is for risking your life in those ladder matches for the past 10 years" kind of push. They almost felt guilty not giving it to him. His matches are too predictable. He hasnt had a great non gimmick match that I know of. His mfeud with Orton has been so-so but then again it is Randy Orton, so that explains why that feuds good. Hes horrible on the mic, and even me a boy from Tennessee, hates hearing his southern accent on the mic.

So I give this to Lynn hands down.

 

[Derf]

I voted for Finlay, and then was shocked to see how close this thing was. John Cena is probably the next "Icon", like it or not, but Finlay can wrestle circles around this guy. I see this being a nice long match, but in the long run, finlay will win with some unusual submission.

 

[Slyfox696]

...You're kidding me right? What exactly about that looks fake? "Totally choreographed"...really? And you would know this how? You booked the match huh? How does that look choreographed? Its your opinion, not fact. It doesn't look choreographed at all to me, it looks like the classic warming out phase between two bitter rivals that know every move in their opponents arsenal. Completely and totally realistic, would you rather RVD comes in and just starts squashing Lynn? Once again you're calling your opinion as gospel. And you're wrong. And your argument of "it looks fake"? So does everything else in every wrestling match in the history of wrestling. Because it is fake. Did you forget?

The whole point of good wrestling is to make fans suspend disbelief. Choreographed segments like that are anything but.

How is that even slightly illogical? Suplexing someone onto hard steel is illogical in a wrestling match? How? Isn't the goal to hurt your opponent? Seems to me like grabbing them and ramming their chest into a steel barricade would hurt. Completely logical, and makes perfect sense given the fact that this is an ECW match. Are we even watching the same match here?

It's a poor transition to an obvious spot. Pretty certain that's what I said.

Once again, you act like you've never seen a wrestling match before. Maybe he's in the ring for that 30 seconds celebrating because he just made his return and is one of the biggest stars in the company and the crowd is chanting his name at the top of their lungs? Could that be the crazy explanation? Maybe because ECW had an emphasis on sportsmanship in wrestling, and many many times in a match the opponent would wait for the other man to get up instead of attacking him when he's down? Clearly you're not very familiar with ECW or RVD's tenure there. Another completely illogical OPINION.

RVD just spent 4 minutes celebrating his return. The whole point is that all of this nothing more than spot to nothing to spot again.

Waits for Lynn to get on the top rope? If by wait you mean wait all of 0.4 seconds then yes, god forbid he wait any more then less then half a second before going after his opponent. Thats real illogical alright, because everyone knows that RVD is the fastest man on the planet after all. You say "when Lynn finally gets where he's supposed to be" like this process took more then two seconds. Are you high or something, because you seem to be seeing things in slow motion. And then you criticize RVD for rolling over to the corner after Lynn...once again, this is one of the cornerstones of RVD's wrestling. He's done it twenty thousand times before. Yet this time it sucks according to you. This seems to be becoming a pattern; you keep criticizing them for doing what they've always done.

Please. Actually watch it Xfear. You know damn well that was not realistic looking, and was done only for a crowd popping spot. Quit being so blind.

Once again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with how this "spot" (if you apparently want to call something as simple as that a "spot") is done. You're critcisms aren't making any sense at all. It looked completely realistic, as realistic as pro wrestling (which in case you've forgotten is fake) can be.

RVD waiting to get legdrop is realistic?

Okay now you're just being ridiculious. Unless you watch every single wrestling match expecting for it to be Steamboat-Savage and am utterly disgusted when it's not, there is NOTHIGN wrong with this. "Amazing reserve"? I didn't know reversing an irish whip was similiar to Hulking up and no-selling. "Waits" for Lynn to do a roll-up....come the fuck on Slyfox, this is bullshit, you're seriously just arguing for the sake of it. If you really think there is something wrong with a man waiting half of a second as he is rolled up, then throw out every god damn wrestling tape or DVD you own because you will never, ever, ever, EVER see a wrestling show in which that EXACT move isn't replicated.

God forbid someone botch. I forgot that no one in wrestling history except for RVD and Jerry Lynn have ever botched a move in their life. My bad on that one, how crazy of me. The fact that you even noticed that supposed "botch" makes it really very clear that you watched this match without even giving it a chance to be good, but instead went in thinking "Okay this match is terrible, now lets find every little tiny miniscule thing I can and criticize them for it". How much do you want to bet I'll find the EXACT same things in the Umaga-Hardy match?

What are you talking about? The botch was so bad that the whole ECW crowd started chanting "you fucked up". You're making it sound like it was a minor thing. It was bad.

And, I don't criticize a single botch, but to insist it doesn't hurt a match because it happens in others is ridiculous.

I really just have to keep repeating myself here. WHY ARE YOU CRITICIZING RVD FOR DOING ONE OF HIS SIGNATURE MOVES? How is that a poor transition? Looks perfectly fine to me. RVD and Lynn have been wrestling now for a good 10-11 minutes or so, so why wouoldn't Lynn be tired? There is absolutely nothing wrong with this transition, and you're simply just making things up at this point to sound like you're right. OBVIOUS next spot huh? You seem to be the only one thats obvious to. RVD grabs a chair and that must automatically mean he's going to do the skateboard-chairshot right? After all, thats the only move that RVD has ever done with a chair before right? It's not like one of his most famous moves involves a chair, which isn't displayed there.

Because the transitions to these signature moves are piss poor. How do you not understand this? How do you not understand that there is no flow to this match, a bunch of nothingness with spot wrestling sprinkled within? You're turning a blind eye to the so many flaws in this match simply because you are under the mistaken notion it's good. It has terrible transitions and is nothing more than two guys showing what fancy moves they can do.

Wow I didn't realize moves such as kicks, punches, body slams, etc were considered spots. Man. I guess every match ever wrestled is a spotfest then huh?

Do I really need to review with you what a "spotfest" match is?

Funny, did I say this match was a technical masterpiece? No I did not. Jerry Lynn and RVD wrestled several times, and this wasn't my favorite of their matches nor the one I was referring to as a technical masterpiece, that would be the RVD-Lynn match from Living Dangerously 99.

Funny, because I asked you that beforehand and you ignored it. Why didn't you just save us both time?

Why? Everyone I've ever spoken to whos ever seen the two wrestle each other has said they're some of the best matches they've ever seen. You seem to be in the minority here (which you continuously remind us doesn't matter; so therefore your opinion here is worthless isn't it, since you're in the minority?). I think I'll trust me and every other wrestling fan I've ever spoken to's opinions over someone in such a miniscule minority as yourself.

The matches are terrible. The only people you talk to are the people who think just like you, so of course they are going to have the same opinion. Try expanding the number of fans you talk to and expand the demographic of fans you talk to, and then see what kind of responses you get to this match.

I'm sorry, was that match supposed to entertain me? I was busy falling asleep. I noticed the "story" told in the match. Its the same exact story told in every single match pitting a large man against a small man. Completely and utterly predictable, I knew exactly what was going to happen this entire match from start to finish. Umaga dominates, Jeff gets in some quick and sneaky moves, Jeff salvages the win just barely, overcoming the odds. Yawn. Seen it a million times before, and I've seen it done a million times better before. Everything flows together the exact same way that everything flowed together in the Lynn-RVD match. Further more, these two matches are COMPLETELY different styles of matches, and therefore shouldn't be compared. You're comparing a big man-little man match against a little man-little man No DQ battle. The Whisper in the Wind was placed at its usual place.

Right...that's just you saying "well, Sly, you were right, there really wasn't much in this match I could criticize so I'll use blanket generalizations to save face".

And, you can see good vs. evil storylines in ANY entertainment medium. The repetitiveness of storylines has no influence on their quality. At this point, you're just making stuff up because you really have nothing else.

Whats good about this match?

The storytelling, psychology, workrate, transitions to various spots, etc...

Whats even more hilarious about that match, is the way it ends. Jeff Hardy kicks Umaga, a man who has demolished world champions left and right before, and somehow the 2 foot drop off the turnbuckle and the incredibly weak looking cover by Jeff Hardy is enough to win the match. You want to criticize matches for poor transitions and bad spots, this is by far the saddest excuse for the ending of a match I've seen in years. Man, do you wear those WWE-tinted sunglasses everywhere you go Sly or what? Because that match was shit. Utter shit.

You're glorifying a spotfest match, where the only interest was in what fancy moves could be done, and then calling a match where fans were actually worked by the story in the ring utter shit? And you're saying I have the tinted sunglasses on?

And you would know, being such good friends with them all.

I don't have to be. I can tell simply by the fact that Jeff Hardy was main-eventing in both TNA and now WWE, and Jerry Lynn..well, not so much.

Thanks for wasting 15 minutes of my life Slyfox. For someone who preaches enjoying the simplicity of wrestling in its storytelling and etc, you sure as hell over-analyze every single move in a wrestling match to death.

I did that for your benefit, so you could understand why I call the match a pointless spotfest of a match. You asked and I told. I didn't waste any of your life, Xfear, I just gave you what you asked for.

You're welcome.

 

[X]

The whole point of good wrestling is to make fans suspend disbelief. Choreographed segments like that are anything but.

It's a poor transition to an obvious spot. Pretty certain that's what I said.

You haven't yet explained how you know it was choreographed. And you won't, because you don't know that. It's not a poor transition at all, and you have provided no evidence to say it is a poor transition other then your illogical explanation in which you say its a poor transition because of how long RVD waits before going after Lynn, which is all of half of a second.

RVD just spent 4 minutes celebrating his return. The whole point is that all of this nothing more than spot to nothing to spot again.

4 minutes huh? First it was 30 seconds, not its 4 minutes huh? Its very clearly not spot to nothing to spot to nothing, incase you didn't notice the other 95% of the match in which they perform moves. In fact there are maybe 3 spots in the entire match. What you keep referring to as "spots" is simple shit that happened in every single match in ECW, such as a leg drop onto someone on the barrier. Shit, that happens in almost every RVD match in the WWE.

Please. Actually watch it Xfear. You know damn well that was not realistic looking, and was done only for a crowd popping spot. Quit being so blind.

I did watch it. It looked perfectly realistic, and I wouldn't say it didn't if it did. Why would I blatantly lie about my own opinion for no reason whatsoever? I'm the one being blind? Yet you're the one in the extremely small minority here...

RVD waiting to get legdrop is realistic?

If by "waiting" you mean pausing for literally (and I counted myself) one second, then yes, that is realistic. What the hell do you want him to do, jump up as soon as he gets hit? Then you'd be ripping him apart for "not selling". Stop the bullshit Slyfox, please explain how 1 second of time elapsed looks anything like he's just waiting there for it to happen. I don't know, maybe he's resting for that total of one grand second? Maybe he's not thinking "MUST MOVE NOW IN LESS THEN ONE SECOND DESPITE JUST HAVING MY SHOULDER DRIVEN INTO THE TURNBUCKLE"? This isn't even an opinion, its fact. You're just straight up wrong on that one.

What are you talking about? The botch was so bad that the whole ECW crowd started chanting "you fucked up". You're making it sound like it was a minor thing. It was bad.

And, I don't criticize a single botch, but to insist it doesn't hurt a match because it happens in others is ridiculous.

That was a bad botch? You kidding me? The camera wasn't even focused on the botch, and all the viewer sees is a poor looking takedown by Jerry Lynn. It was an EXTREMELY minor thing, which elicited a "you fucked up" chant for barely 15 seconds. You do realize that the ECW crowd chants "you fucked up" around 50 times per show right? That if RVD had tripped on his way to the ring, off camera, the whole crowd would of chanted that? So I guess when the ECW crowd starts chanting "She's a crack ****e" that logically that person must be addicted to crack cocaine and is a prositute, right?

That botch didn't hurt the match at all. Infact you're probably the only person to have given a fuck about it. The ECW crowd sure didn't care.

Because the transitions to these signature moves are piss poor. How do you not understand this? How do you not understand that there is no flow to this match, a bunch of nothingness with spot wrestling sprinkled within? You're turning a blind eye to the so many flaws in this match simply because you are under the mistaken notion it's good. It has terrible transitions and is nothing more than two guys showing what fancy moves they can do.[quotes]

But they aren't piss poor at all. They're actually quite good. That would explain why you're the only person to ever criticize it. Once again, I think I'll take the 99.9% of wrestling fans who enjoy this match over the 0.01% like you who don't enjoy it simply because it isn't held in some giant arena with flashing lights and WWE production behind it. The match flows perfectly fine. RVD comes out, they feel each other out as its been a little while since RVD's been in ECW, the feeling out breaks down into a brawl outside the ring, which then transitions back into the ring for the finish of the match. It's the same excact flow and formula of most main-event level matches. This isn't spot wrestling. Where are all of these god damn spots you're reffering to? Because there's like 3 in the entire 15 or so minute match. You're trying to tell me they spent 15 minutes on 3 moves?

Then you say I'm under the "mistaken notion this match is good". Mistaken by whom? You? And I give a flying fuck about your opinion on matches why again? Me and the rest of the world will continue to enjoy this match, and you can continue to complain about it to a brick wall, because nobody cares. You provide no evidence, other then completely and utterly FALSE "evidence" that this match isn't good.

Nothing more then two guys showing what fancy moves they can do....not at all. Clearly, you just watched this match with no intention whatsoever of being objective in the slightest.

Do I really need to review with you what a "spotfest" match is?

What, you mean like every Jeff Hardy match involving a ladder? And before you reply "but but Lynn is a spot-monkey too!", I will gladly point you to the direction of dozens of Lynn matches without a single spot in them. Infact, you could just watch the majority of Jerry Lynn's TNA matches in 2007 to see that.

The matches are terrible. The only people you talk to are the people who think just like you, so of course they are going to have the same opinion. Try expanding the number of fans you talk to and expand the demographic of fans you talk to, and then see what kind of responses you get to this match.

Stop. Stop acting like you know me Slyfox. How the fuck do you know who I do and don't talk to? You don't. I have one, count that ONE friend who enjoys wrestling moderately. I've shown these Lynn-RVD matches to friends who knew nothing about wrestling and barely ever watched it other then in the Attitude era for 2 weeks, and they've all come away impressed by the matches those two have had. Thats pretty impressive, for non-wrestling fans to be impressed by these two. How much do you want to bet they wouldn't give a shit if I played them a John Cena match?

Right...that's just you saying "well, Sly, you were right, there really wasn't much in this match I could criticize so I'll use blanket generalizations to save face".

And where did I say that? I gave you plenty of reasons why that match wasn't good, the most glaring one being the piss-poor ending that was completely unrealistic and didn't make even the slightest bit of sense. Please defend the ending of that match and explain to me how it was in any way realistic.

And, you can see good vs. evil storylines in ANY entertainment medium. The repetitiveness of storylines has no influence on their quality. At this point, you're just making stuff up because you really have nothing else.

I'M MAKING STUFF UP?! YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S CALLING A WHOPPING 1 SECOND BREAK BETWEEN WRESTLING MOVES AN "UNREALISTIC WAITING PERIOD". Please, thats bullshit and if you can't see that then you've got some serious egotistical issues.

I don't have to be. I can tell simply by the fact that Jeff Hardy was main-eventing in both TNA and now WWE, and Jerry Lynn..well, not so much.

So a whopping one month long main event feud makes Hardy superior hmmm...and when again was he main eventing in TNA? I must've missed that one, because all I remember is Abyss carrying him around the ring and throwing him on things.

Feel free to respond with more of your insane bullshit that makes zero logical sense whatsoever. I doubt anyone is listening or caring but you.

Jerry Lynn > Jeff Hardy.

That's my opinion. Get over it. People are allowed to have different opinions then you Slyfox, I know its a crazy idea. If you'd like to have everyone agree on everything, move to China.

 

[Slyfox696]

You haven't yet explained how you know it was choreographed. And you won't, because you don't know that. It's not a poor transition at all, and you have provided no evidence to say it is a poor transition other then your illogical explanation in which you say its a poor transition because of how long RVD waits before going after Lynn, which is all of half of a second.

Have you even seen it. Of course it was choreographed. Are you really telling me all that was either a) realistic, or b) made up on the fly?

4 minutes huh? First it was 30 seconds, not its 4 minutes huh?

He spent 4 minutes in the first part celebrating his return, so why did he need to do it for another 30 seconds when he's already 5+ minutes into the match?

Its very clearly not spot to nothing to spot to nothing, incase you didn't notice the other 95% of the match in which they perform moves.

95% of the match is them performing moves? You're kidding right?

In fact there are maybe 3 spots in the entire match. What you keep referring to as "spots" is simple shit that happened in every single match in ECW, such as a leg drop onto someone on the barrier. Shit, that happens in almost every RVD match in the WWE.

Do you even know what a spot means?

I did watch it. It looked perfectly realistic, and I wouldn't say it didn't if it did.

If you think Lynn jumping on the ropes, taking a second to position himself and THEN having RVD roll towards him after Lynn maneuvered himself into a good position on the rope is realistic, then I don't what else to say. Because it's not. Realistic would have been for RVD to charge immediately, and not wait. Realistic would have been for RVD to see than Lynn was preparing himself to do something and to avoid it. Realistic is not waiting for Lynn to position himself for a spot and then rolling towards him when he's ready to do something. Why would I blatantly lie about my own opinion for no reason whatsoever?

If by "waiting" you mean pausing for literally (and I counted myself) one second, then yes, that is realistic. What the hell do you want him to do, jump up as soon as he gets hit? Then you'd be ripping him apart for "not selling". Stop the bullshit Slyfox, please explain how 1 second of time elapsed looks anything like he's just waiting there for it to happen. I don't know, maybe he's resting for that total of one grand second? Maybe he's not thinking "MUST MOVE NOW IN LESS THEN ONE SECOND DESPITE JUST HAVING MY SHOULDER DRIVEN INTO THE TURNBUCKLE"? This isn't even an opinion, its fact. You're just straight up wrong on that one.

HAHAHA

You're excuses amaze me. Face it. It was garbage. RVD literally waited to get hit.

That was a bad botch? You kidding me? The camera wasn't even focused on the botch, and all the viewer sees is a poor looking takedown by Jerry Lynn. It was an EXTREMELY minor thing, which elicited a "you fucked up" chant for barely 15 seconds. You do realize that the ECW crowd chants "you fucked up" around 50 times per show right? That if RVD had tripped on his way to the ring, off camera, the whole crowd would of chanted that? So I guess when the ECW crowd starts chanting "She's a crack ****e" that logically that person must be addicted to crack cocaine and is a prositute, right?

What does that have to do with the fact that the two guys so obviously botched a move that the entire crowd chanted that they fucked up?

But they aren't piss poor at all. They're actually quite good. That would explain why you're the only person to ever criticize it.

The only person? No, not hardly. Maybe the only person in your world, but I assure you, the acclaim for this match is not as grand as you seem to think it is.

The match flows perfectly fine. RVD comes out, they feel each other out as its been a little while since RVD's been in ECW, the feeling out breaks down into a brawl outside the ring, which then transitions back into the ring for the finish of the match. It's the same excact flow and formula of most main-event level matches. This isn't spot wrestling. Where are all of these god damn spots you're reffering to? Because there's like 3 in the entire 15 or so minute match. You're trying to tell me they spent 15 minutes on 3 moves?

I'll get to this in a second...

Nothing more then two guys showing what fancy moves they can do....not at all. Clearly, you just watched this match with no intention whatsoever of being objective in the slightest.

I first watched this match when I was under the impression that ECW was as good as you claim and still thought it blew monkey balls. I subjective in favor of ECW and thought this match sucked.

What, you mean like every Jeff Hardy match involving a ladder? And before you reply "but but Lynn is a spot-monkey too!", I will gladly point you to the direction of dozens of Lynn matches without a single spot in them. Infact, you could just watch the majority of Jerry Lynn's TNA matches in 2007 to see that.

And with that, you just admit you must not know what a spot is.

A spot is a pre-arranged part of a match, in which two performers plan out what will happen and when. Every match has spots, at the bare minimum they'll have two, one to start and the one to finish. Every match has spots, and for you to claim that you can show me Lynn matches without a single spot in them is where your biggest misunderstanding lies.

A spot doesn't have to be high risk move. A spot can be something as simple as armbar reversals.

And where did I say that? I gave you plenty of reasons why that match wasn't good, the most glaring one being the piss-poor ending that was completely unrealistic and didn't make even the slightest bit of sense. Please defend the ending of that match and explain to me how it was in any way realistic.

How did the ending not make sense? Umaga went up to the top rope, a place he's rather unfamiliar with, got stunned with a ring rope in the gonads, and could not recover in time. It's not like it took him out completely, as evidenced by his tossing Hardy out of the ring right after the count of three. Hardy sneaks a win out despite being inferior, Umaga still looks good, and the crowd is extremely excited. It makes perfect sense, and a whole hell of a lot more sense than some of the stuff I watched in the Lynn vs. RVD match.

Jerry Lynn > Jeff Hardy.

That's my opinion. Get over it. People are allowed to have different opinions then you Slyfox, I know its a crazy idea. If you'd like to have everyone agree on everything, move to China.

This coming from the person who said they lost every last bit of respect for me because I took Hardy over Lynn? And now you're telling me that people are allowed to have different opinions, and that if I want everyone to agree I should move to China?

C'mon Xfear. You can be a lot of things, but don't be a hypocrite. You started this debate between you and I, not me.