Round 2, Day 6

[Shocky]

IC25, you forgot the tag title reigns with the Bulldog and Jarrett, in which they were equally over. I would go as far to say that the teaming with the Bulldog was better then the teaming with Yokozuna. I am going way out on the limb and saying that Owen may have been the better wrestler then Bret Hart as far as moves. Bret admits it himself, he is a staple boy for the five moves of doom. Owen was a high flyer, plus just as good of a technician as Bret Hart. Owen Hart will get over looked in history because of the timing,a nd being in the shadow of Bret. Owen could have had a good look at the WWE title if it wasn't for the Kliq taking over in 1995. You're telling me Bob Backlund could get a title reign, but Owen Hart couldn't?

Morrison is good, but is no where near as good as Owen Hart.

 

[Shocky]

Never been a Warrior fan and never will be a warrior fan. Even at the age of ten I could see threw the bullshit of the Warrior and see how terrible of a wrestler he is. I hated his interviews, and hated his matches. He was a bore. It's probably the same reason why I don't like guys like Goldberg, squash matches are terrible and only hide the fact that the guy can't go for more then 5 to ten minutes. Warrior showed up at Wrestlemania 5-7, but how come no one talks about his great match with Hercules? He had great matches because of the guys he was in the ring with, that's why.

I saw more out of an injured Jushin Liger at Starrcade 96 then I have the entire career of the Warrior. Jushin Liger, along with Brian Pillman, brought wrestling out of it's slowed down, boring pacing, to high paced, fast action matches. Liger wins, and it shouldn't be close.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, not every match has to have Vince McMahon style of booking to be a good match. Paul Heyman's booking emphasized athleticism over story telling, that's what he did. Jerry Lynn adapted to that style of match that Heyman wanted. If the guy botches because he is 20 minutes into a thirty minute match and going 100%, I have no problem with that. It's the style he is asked to work, and he did the job he was supposed to do. I didn't see that Jerry Lynn when he was in WCW as JL, or even last year in TNA. He works the matches he is asked too. And y ou can't defend the WWE and it's treatment of the Cruiserweight division, you know the one with that guy as champion...

You're missing the point.

Everything you say about Jeff Hardy matches is EXACTLY THE SAME THING THAT JERRY LYNN does. That's the point. Jerry Lynn is every bit of a spot wrestler with poor transitions that Jeff Hardy ever was. You're excusing Lynn for that because Heyman apparently told Lynn to have piss poor matches where the only redeeming value in them is a bunch of flips. I don't know if I believe that, but that's what so many Jerry Lynn matches are about, especially his constantly praised matches against RVD.

You're criticizing Hardy for the same thing you're praising Lynn for. It makes no sense, especially since Hardy has done it better and has entertained more people doing it.

And, that was the Hardy of ten years ago. Today's Hardy, while still a big move type of guy, is actually a solid wrestler as well. The Whisper in the Wind is terrible, but everything else he does generally makes sense and is in a proper flow of a match. His match against Umaga on Raw is a great example of Hardy can go in the ring, without all the high risk.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, just because a guy is boring doens't mean he's not a good wrestler.

Umm...actually, yes it does. The WHOLE purpose of being in wrestling is to be entertaining. If you're not entertaining you aren't good. It's as simple as that.

I think what you are confusing talent with is knowledge. Finlay knows a lot about wrestling, and can do many holds and knows how to play his part wonderfully. But, he's not interesting in the least.

Compare it to a basketball example. I know basketball, and can teach and coach it, but I wasn't good enough to play at a Division 1 level. There are guys in Division 1 level who couldn't tell you the difference between a 2-3 zone and a 2-3 matchup zone, but they can play ball at an extremely high level.

Finlay is the coach. Cena is the player. Finlay is boring and uninteresting and needs a midget to have entertainment value. Cena gets over through his incredible work.

You can't be a good wrestler if you are boring.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Fong, CA, thank you both for setting me straight on the Owen Hart Tag Reigns. I'd forgotten some of those, not because they weren't memorable, but just out of my own mind, and I never looked it up this time.

Given your two posts, I can certainly understand a vote for Owen Hart. But Shawn Michaels has said that Marty Jannetty had more raw talent than he did, and Chris Jericho has said that Lance Storm had more raw talent than he did, and we know Matt Hardy has more Raw talent that his more over, bigger star brother Jeff, but that doesn't mean they get my vote. I stick by Morrison, but with far more conflict than I did before.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Also IC, I think you would have to agree that those tag titles, and the IC title carried much more prestige and weight when Owen held them, than when Morrison held them. The IC belt is barely worth is weight anymore, and the SD! tag titles...well its been said in these very spaces over and over how shitacular and worthless those belts are. M&M won those belts like the second match they had, frooooooom WHO? Yea I dont remember either...and they lost them toooooo WHO??? Prolly dont remember that either. Becuase those belts mean virtually nothing. I continually forget who even HAS those belts right now, and im one of the biggest WWE marks here.

Both the IC AND tag belts were much more prestigous when Owen won them. And there HAS been a KOR since Morrison has been around, the one that Booker T won, when he transitioned to King Booker.

I get your points, and I just as much as you, and maybe moreso, think Morrison will be a HUGE star someday, but when you compare guys at this current stage I think Owen edges him, but I can understand and respect standing by Morrison. Becuase in three years, he would win this hands down, blowout.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

personally I think Finlay is extremely entertaining, thankyou very much slyfox, and I found him much more interesting BEFORE the midget came along. Just becuase YOU didnt find him interesting before the midget doesnt mean he WASNT interesting before. As I just proved. He was a very good heel, and is VERY talented and skilled in the ring. He does get reaction, especially as a hell, were he was continually heavily booed. Finlay is not boring in the least I find the VAST majority of his matches to be VERY entertaining, and actually, I know im in good hands when I see that a finlay match is coming up.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Sting is another wrestler who I find to be dull. In my opinion he's no better than Hogan or The Rock. Same routine every match. That's fine, it worked for him as it did those two. But once you've seen one Sting match you've seen them all.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

If you put a Thesz match on fast forward it wouls till be slow. I've got a DVD with a doucumentary and a few matches. But other than that I've not seen much. I wasn't impressed with waht I saw anyway. That was then though. I really don't know how somebody who wasn't around when Thesz was could really vote for him.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Roberts didn't need to be a good wrestler. He had everything else. You can watch any of his matches and because of his gimmick, mannerisms etc the match is watchable. It's just a shame he's one of wrestlings fuck ups.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Inoki was fine. But when it came to workrate he wasn't in Savages league. Savage will go further in this tournament than any of the 80's wrestlers. He's held hin high regard by pretty much everyone other than The McMahons & Hogan.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Look at it like this. Which Japanese wrestler has frequently been bought into American companies for the past 15 or so years? They bring him in for a reason, he's that good.

Warrior was entertaining. But it took WWE slating him for me to realise that.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Morrison is crap. Face it. Melina was the star of MNM. Other than a couple of decent matches with Jeff Hardy, and stealing Benoit's ECW title that's it. He hasn't done anything to even get the label ''good''.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Finlay. Anybody who can turn the Trish Stratus of 2000 into the Trish Stratus of 2006 is cool with me. Really she was average when she left WWE but it was still an incredible improvement on the Trish who made her debut in 2000. She was terrible. It took Finlay to craft her into the most over yet average female wrestler in WWE history. When I say average that's a good thing. BECAUSE TRISH FUCKIN' SUCKED.

 

[Slyfox696]

personally I think Finlay is extremely entertaining, thankyou very much slyfox, and I found him much more interesting BEFORE the midget came along. Just becuase YOU didnt find him interesting before the midget doesnt mean he WASNT interesting before.

No, it was the fact that very few fans found him interesting that makes him not interesting. Who cares what you or I think. It's what the majority of the audience thinks. And most found him incredibly boring, which is why they paired him with a midget.

Finlay. Anybody who can turn the Trish Stratus of 2000 into the Trish Stratus of 2006 is cool with me. Really she was average when she left WWE but it was still an incredible improvement on the Trish who made her debut in 2000. She was terrible. It took Finlay to craft her into the most over yet average female wrestler in WWE history. When I say average that's a good thing. BECAUSE TRISH FUCKIN' SUCKED.

How does Finlay's abilities as a trainer make a difference in his abilities as a wrestler? Just like how does my abilities as a coach make a difference in my abilities as a player?

 

[Y 2 Jake]

How does Finlay's abilities as a trainer make a difference in his abilities as a wrestler? Just like how does my abilities as a coach make a difference in my abilities as a player?

Do you ever get a bad wrestler who makes a good trainer?

If I was being trained as a wrestler I'd take more notice of somebody who knows his shit. As opposed to somebody who doesn't.

I think what you are confusing talent with is knowledge. Finlay knows a lot about wrestling, and can do many holds and knows how to play his part wonderfully.

Sounds like somebody I'd like to learn from.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

No, it was the fact that very few fans found him interesting that makes him not interesting. Who cares what you or I think. It's what the majority of the audience thinks. And most found him incredibly boring, which is why they paired him with a midget.

How does Finlay's abilities as a trainer make a difference in his abilities as a wrestler? Just like how does my abilities as a coach make a difference in my abilities as a player?

How do you know very few fans found him interesting??? Did you survey every fan at every arena to see if they were interested in him? My ears heard pretty Heavy boos for him every week, so that tells me that people were quite interested in his heel character. Every person who I know who enjoys wrestling appreciated him, and began to like him less when the midget came around. He didnt get paired with a midget becuase he was boring, he got paired with a midget becuase the WWE is moronic sometimes. And his current pairing with the midget, or, repairing, was to get him over as face. Obviously they think the guy is good, and can gain attention, if they are feuding him with Mcmahon. Thats the star builder rivalry.

No one cared any MORE after Hornswaggle started interfereing in his heel matches, and he is with him now to make him a sympathetic figure, as a face. One 2 minute cameo from a midget per match doesnt suddenly take someone uninteresting, and turn them interesting. It didnt matter, and wasnt necessary in his heel days, he got plenty of heat on his own.

Take The Rey Mysterio VS Finlay match from No Mercy for an example. There were plenty of matches that were very good and generated great heat without Hornswaggles involvement.

 

[X]

I've officially lost every last shred of respect for you Slyfox. Un-fuckin-believable. Jeff Hardy better then Jerry Lynn?

And you're calling Jerry Lynn a spot monkey? Are you fucking kidding me? Stop bullshitting us, because its damn obvious you've seen all of 3 Jerry Lynn matches. That or you just continue to hate anyone who can wrestle well without becoming some huge success blindly.

Now how exactly is a 30 minute technical masterpiece against RVD considered a spotfest? Please inform me of that one.

But more importantly: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH SPOTS?!

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY EVERYONE HATES SPOTS? Because Sly, if you love what the WWE crowds love, then you should be marking the fuck out for every minor spot in any match. Because thats what fans want to see, spots. And if you can do spots well, then you're delivering to the fans what they want. And if you can do that, then by your definition, you're a good wrestler. So if Hardy is good, then Lynn must be.

Predictable spots? Please. You do realize we're talking about Jeff Hardy here right? I have never seen a match involving Jeff Hardy (except for the ladder match at No Mercy 99 when all of that was new) where I didn't know exactly what spots he would do, and when. It's so fucking obvious its just ridiculious. The Swanton onto Randy Orton a few weeks ago? I saw that coming the second they got on the stage.

Jesus, I can't believe you Sly. I really can't believe you. I have officially lost all respect for your opinion. Jeff Hardy, a good worker? On what planet? Name one non-gimmick match involving Jeff Hardy that was even halfway decent? I know you'll name a good 5 or 10, all of which in reality will be total and utter garbage, but you'll say they're "good matches" because of Hardys "awesome selling" and the "story". Bullshit. Jeff Hardy is a hack, a terrible hack at that, who's only talent is falling off of things and doing flips. The man doesn't know 10 wrestling moves.

Here comes your typical response in which you will try to sound like the intelligent one here, and which everyone except for you will look at you and say "What the fuck is this guy smoking"? Save it. You're wrong. End of story and discussion. Their is no debate here, you are simply wrong. Feel free to reply, but it will achieve nothing, as me and every other wrestling fan here who's ever seen Jerry Lynn wrestle outside of the WWE will disagree with you.

Defending Hogan and Cena is one thing. They're main eventers at least. But Jeff Hardy? He's shit. Utter shit. And you're the only one here besides a 15 year old girl in love with him who's going to disagree with that statement.

 

[Agrex]

As much as like Morrison, I have to go against him. Morrison is a former tag champ, IC champ, and ECW champ. He's my favourite wrestler on the ECW brand. He's very talented, and can work the mic well. But no way in hell can I vote him over Owen Hart who is an amazing wrestler. Owen Hart is one of the best wrestlers ever. Just to point out, I did not vote for him due his tragic death.

 

[Agrex]

A fucking hate myself for voting for John Cena. Finaly is a very, very talented wrestler, he is very technically gifted. Finlay is way btter at everything than Cena. The only thing Cena has is 8 year olds, women, and Sly. The only reason I voted for Cena is because, face it, it's WWE Cena doesn't lose in WWE. No way would they have Finaly go over. If this was WCW per say, without a doubt in my mind I'd go with Finaly.

 

[Slyfox696]

Do you ever get a bad wrestler who makes a good trainer?

If I was being trained as a wrestler I'd take more notice of somebody who knows his shit. As opposed to somebody who doesn't.

Sure you do.

Just like you get basketball coaches who weren't good players. Being a teacher/trainer is independent of being able to perform it. I can teach a kid how to shoot a basketball, but my shot is not very good.

Being a good wrestler involves being able to be entertaining. And Finlay has never found a time where he was much more than be a walking snooze fest.

Sounds like somebody I'd like to learn from.

Me too. Doesn't mean I'd want him to be the guy to be put over a John Cena.

How do you know very few fans found him interesting??? Did you survey every fan at every arena to see if they were interested in him?

No, the crowd response and his lack of pushes for his career says enough.

He didnt get paired with a midget becuase he was boring, he got paired with a midget becuase the WWE is moronic sometimes.

No, he got paired with a midget because he has no personality in the ring.

 

[Slyfox696]

I've officially lost every last shred of respect for you Slyfox. Un-fuckin-believable. Jeff Hardy better then Jerry Lynn?

And you're calling Jerry Lynn a spot monkey? Are you fucking kidding me? Stop bullshitting us, because its damn obvious you've seen all of 3 Jerry Lynn matches. That or you just continue to hate anyone who can wrestle well without becoming some huge success blindly.

I've seen plenty of Jerry Lynn matches, and have yet to see one that consists of much more than moving from one spot to the next, with little regard on how to get there logically.

Now how exactly is a 30 minute technical masterpiece against RVD considered a spotfest? Please inform me of that one.

You tell me which match in particular you're referring to, and I'll tell you why.

But more importantly: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH SPOTS?!

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY EVERYONE HATES SPOTS? Because Sly, if you love what the WWE crowds love, then you should be marking the fuck out for every minor spot in any match. Because thats what fans want to see, spots. And if you can do spots well, then you're delivering to the fans what they want. And if you can do that, then by your definition, you're a good wrestler. So if Hardy is good, then Lynn must be.

Nothing is wrong with spots. Spots happen in EVERY match. The problem is the transitions from spots. The transition from one spot to the next has to make sense, and have to get the wrestlers there smoothly, with no noticeable intentions of the following spot. That's why Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat from Wrestlemania 3 is so damn. That whole match was pretty much planned out beforehand, thus was by defintion, very spotty, but the transitions between spots are masterful.

There's nothing wrong with spots, just how you get there. And for anyone to praise Lynn and bash Hardy in the same breath when it comes to being a spotty wrestler, is just ridiculous.

Jesus, I can't believe you Sly. I really can't believe you. I have officially lost all respect for your opinion. Jeff Hardy, a good worker? On what planet? Name one non-gimmick match involving Jeff Hardy that was even halfway decent?

I already did.

Hardy vs. Umaga on Raw, for the IC belt.

The man doesn't know 10 wrestling moves.

"Inside Inzguiri, whisper in the wind, swanton bomb, the legdrop to the groin, the drop kick to the chest in the lower turnbuckle, the twist of fate, the diving forearm from the irish whip to the ropes." as posted by another in the Anti-Cena thread. Combine that with the basic hammerlocks and headlocks that all wrestlers do, and you have 10.

Here comes your typical response in which you will try to sound like the intelligent one here, and which everyone except for you will look at you and say "What the fuck is this guy smoking"? Save it. You're wrong. End of story and discussion. Their is no debate here, you are simply wrong. Feel free to reply, but it will achieve nothing, as me and every other wrestling fan here who's ever seen Jerry Lynn wrestle outside of the WWE will disagree with you.

I've seen plenty of Jerry Lynn. I've even seen Jerry Lynn live a couple of times.

He's completely overrated.

Defending Hogan and Cena is one thing. They're main eventers at least. But Jeff Hardy?

Was part of the main-event at the Royal Rumble...

He's shit. Utter shit. And you're the only one here besides a 15 year old girl in love with him who's going to disagree with that statement.

Yes, and as well all know, this forum is an expert on quality of wrestlers...

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yes, and as well all know, this forum is an expert on quality of wrestlers...

Says the guy that claims the only evidence of cruiserweights being good is if they make it into the recent WWE main event, and of wrestlers being good if they sell merchandise and draw a crowd.

Honestly though, in a match with no ladders and little potential for the climbing of tall objects, Lynn has this one in the bag. Well, obviously not, seeing as the Hardy marks are coming out in force, but still...

Now make your little comment.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Being a good wrestler involves being able to be entertaining. And Finlay has never found a time where he was much more than be a walking snooze fest.

Bored you. The lack of crowd responce doesn't bother me. Sure he's only over because of his comedy sidekick. But at his age he's only there to show the youngsters how to go. What would Lashley be like if he hadn't had Finlay to hold his hand during his first big feud?

Me too. Doesn't mean I'd want him to be the guy to be put over a John Cena.

You don't. But other people do. If Cena wasn't pushed as hard as he is then he'd probably win the whole tournament. But considering he's the main focus on Raw, and has been for several years, that's only going to make people resent him. Even if he's improving and having consitently good matches.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Jeff Hardy hasn't improved at all in years. If people think he's improved it's because of his lazy attitude in TNA. Obviously he looks like he's improved since then. He's actually moving of his own free will. Instead of allowing Abyss to just pick him up and throw him around.

In the few years he was in TNA he was taking it easy. Paid vacation. In 2003 when he was fired by WWE he was a physical wreck. He was walking like he was in pain. He took a few years off, then returned to WWE where he was feeling rejuvenated and ready to perform again. Also getting off the crystal meth has probably made him remeber what selling is, and how to do it.