Round 2, Day 6

[Slyfox696]

Jerry Lynn is one of the most talented wrestlers of the last 20 years. Watch ANY of his matches with RVD and you'll immediately change your opinion on this one.

That's funny you said that because his matches with RVD are what changed my mind. See, I used to think that Lynn was a very solid wrestler and then I watched his boring pointless spotfest matches with more botches than storytelling, and spots so obvious I saw them coming before the match started, and I realized how overrated he is. If you want people to think well of Jerry Lynn, keep them away from his matches with RVD.

Jeff Hardy on the other hand, is criticized these days for what he used to be, not what he is. His improvement in the last 5 years has been phenomenal, and I dare say he is one of the better workers in the business today.

Hardy on this one, and it isn't even close.

The guy has had zero good non gimmick matches.

His match on Raw to win the IC belt against Umaga (before Umaga was suspended for steroids) was VERY good, and I don't believe that was a gimmick match.

 

[strafro]

Go Finlay

First off, you're an idiot, you'll be gone tomorrow. But I feel like a lot of you are selling Finlay incredibly short, the guy just turned fifty and can still work better and longer than most of the guys in their 20s and 30s, the guy works so well and is one of the most technically sound guys in the world.

But all that being said, Finlay will dominate and work Cena over for fifteen minutes with Cena getting in occassional strikes and "moves." Cena will sell during this beat down period but will then magically feel no pain and somehow make Finlay tap out, I mean the guy made HHH and HBK tap at Mania, why not Finlay too?

 

[Shocky]

Disagree 1000%. A 42 year old Jerry Lynn has put on better matches in 2007 for the X-Division then Jeff Hardy has. Hardy's matches are spot heavy, and his build up has been built soley around spots. The guy has done nothing to improve. It has more to do with the main event scene on Raw going down then Jeff Hardy moving up. Jerry Lynn on the other hand had a damn good feud with Chris Sabin early in the year and those matches were far more better then anything Jeff has managed to pull off.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hardy's matches are spot heavy, and his build up has been built soley around spots.

So are Jerry Lynn's. You just described every single one of Lynn's matches. The difference is the fact that Hardy's matches also include great selling, long-term selling (sometimes from one show to the next), and an ability to make the crowd actually care about his character, instead of the next random move. People cheer for JEFF HARDY, not for a Jeff Hardy move.

The guy has done nothing to improve.

Blatantly false. The man is 3 times the wrestler he was before he got fired from the WWE the first time.

The guy has had zero good non gimmick matches.

His match on Raw to win the IC belt against Umaga (before Umaga was suspended for steroids) was VERY good, and I don't believe that was a gimmick match.

 

[buckstrickland]

First off, you're an idiot, you'll be gone tomorrow. But I feel like a lot of you are selling Finlay incredibly short, the guy just turned fifty and can still work better and longer than most of the guys in their 20s and 30s, the guy works so well and is one of the most technically sound guys in the world.

But all that being said, Finlay will dominate and work Cena over for fifteen minutes with Cena getting in occassional strikes and "moves." Cena will sell during this beat down period but will then magically feel no pain and somehow make Finlay tap out, I mean the guy made HHH and HBK tap at Mania, why not Finlay too?

Why would i be gone, because I expressed my opionon? What did I do wrong, explain please.

 

[Slyfox696]

Let's see.

One is the most over wrestler in the world, and one of the biggest draws in the world. He has put on numerous high quality matches, with numerous wrestlers using numerous styles. He is greeted every where he goes by mega pops and his mere presence provides boost to ratings.

The other one needed a midget to make him interesting.

Definitely got to go with John Cena. Finlay is good in the ring, just as dull as a spoon. When you are only getting a reaction because of your association with a midget, then you know you aren't very entertaining.

 

[strafro]

Why would i be gone, because I expressed my opionon? What did I do wrong, explain please.

Well, I see that you now changed your post content but that was major spamming, something that will get you banned from here very quickly but now that you actually backed up you opinion, it's cool.

 

[strafro]

Let's see.

One is the most over wrestler in the world, and one of the biggest draws in the world. He has put on numerous high quality matches, with numerous wrestlers using numerous styles. He is greeted every where he goes by mega pops and his mere presence provides boost to ratings.

The other one needed a midget to make him interesting.

Definitely got to go with John Cena. Finlay is good in the ring, just as dull as a spoon. When you are only getting a reaction because of your association with a midget, then you know you aren't very entertaining.

Am I the only person that does not react at all to John Cena, I could care less what the guy does and how people react, I acknowledge that he'll be around and yadda yadda yadda and I even voted for the guy but I don't see how him being a huge draw and Finlay being boring being a justifiable reason to vote for him.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Not a public Poll

If You Love Wrestling Vote Jushin Thunder Liger. Ultimate Warrior is a gimmick wrestler. He got over on his gimmick and therefore sold tonnes of merchandise leading to guys like Slyfox proclaiming him as great because there definition of a great wrestler revolves around selling of Merchandise. But Liger brought the Juniors style of Wrestling from Japan to the US with the feud against Brian Pillman. He is top dog in terms of Juniors wrestlers still. Liger has produced a shit load of great matches during his illustrious career. Simply vote Liger.

 

[Slyfox696]

Not a public Poll

If You Love Wrestling Vote Jushin Thunder Liger. Ultimate Warrior is a gimmick wrestler. He got over on his gimmick and therefore sold tonnes of merchandise leading to guys like Slyfox proclaiming him as great because there definition of a great wrestler revolves around selling of Merchandise.

C'mon Shadowmancer, I would expect you to see the deeper correlation between selling merchandise and wrestling ability. Statements like that make me lose respect for you.

Ultimate Warrior was a hell of a professional wrestler. He displayed great psychology, his interviews were highly entertaining, and he knew how to work the crowd beautifully. He always had the crowd in the palm of his hand and knew how to push their buttons.

Now, Liger is probably the better wrestler, but I voted for Warrior, simply because he deserves this poll to be closer than what it probably will be.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Nah that was just trying to get a rise and get some debate going. I truly do believe that Liger is Better than Warrior "Warrior" Warrior. I do think it would be a quick match because Warrior would make a mistake that Liger would Punish him for and then it is the end of the match. Look at Warrior in his prime. His matches against everyone bar Randy Savage, Rick Rude and Hulk Hogan are terrible. He rose for the opponent rather than bein out there putting on the best for each opponent. Liger gets the best out of all his opponents.

 

[Shocky]

So are Jerry Lynn's. You just described every single one of Lynn's matches. The difference is the fact that Hardy's matches also include great selling, long-term selling (sometimes from one show to the next), and an ability to make the crowd actually care about his character, instead of the next random move. People cheer for JEFF HARDY, not for a Jeff Hardy move..

Flopping around like a fish out of water hardly is selling well. The guy may only sell well because he probably is legitimately hurt after doign what he does best, and that's jumping off of high things. Of course he's going to sell, because he just jumped off of a 12 foot ladder, it's the only thing he does good. He jumps off high things. He took that act to TNA and did the same thing there as he has done in the WWE. Jerry Lynn has gone to the last four "major" promotions and done fairly well in each, minus the WWE of course because they don't know how to use cruiserweights correctly. He adapts to the style that he is being booked to do. If Paul Heyman wants a match like he did with RVD, that has nothign to do with Jerry Lynn, that's the booking. The problem is, Shane McMahon has done what Jeff Hardy does and made it look better. People cheer for Jeff Hardy because they appreciate him doing crazy shit, that hardly makes him a good wrestler, it makes him a crazy son of a bitch.

Blatantly false. The man is 3 times the wrestler he was before he got fired from the WWE the first time..

Blatant opinion, and I happen to have one. I see a Jeff Hardy match now, and I see the same match I saw five years ago. A guy doing flips and nothing more. He has a unique look to distract from his lack of talent.

His match on Raw to win the IC belt against Umaga (before Umaga was suspended for steroids) was VERY good, and I don't believe that was a gimmick match.

I think that says more for Umaga then anyone. Umaga had a helluva year in 2007 and had good matches with almost everyone he was with. It's the same thing as Jeff Hardy's "great" match with the Undertaker. Of course that had everythign to do with Jeff Hardy and nothing to do with the Undertaker.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I like Morrison, and think he will be a future star, but I have to give owen the nod here, barely by a hair. I am one of the many that IC25 speaks of, who thinks Owen is very ovverated, but Morrison, besudes the ECW title, hasnt accomplished a whole lot. Owen, was in a very high profile feud with Bret, former IC, Tag, and european champion, and plus the King of the Ring. Got way better heat in his day than Morrison does now. By the time its all said and done, I belive Morrison ENDS UP being better than Owen, but as of right now, the king or harts goes over here.

Norcal, this isn't a reflection on your opinion, but I do have to point out and maybe enhance some of your comparisons as it pertains to Morrison and Owen.

Intercontinental Title. Morrison? Check. Hart? Check.

Tag Team Title. Morrison? Check, first with a fired Joey Mercury, now with The Miz. Hart? Check. WITH YOKOZUNA!

European Title. Morrison? Nope. Title doesn't exist anymore because guys like Hart couldn't keep it over. Hart? Check. Again, defunct.

ECW Title. Morrison? Check, given the reigns to lead the smallest of the three shows. Hart? Nope, didn't have the opportunity.

King of the Ring. Morrison? Nope, they haven't held the tournament since he went full time. Hart? Check, but only to enhance the feud with Bret.

Heat. Morrison? Check. Whether as a tag wrestler, singles wrestler, whatever. He is hated because of all out cockyness but still draws Shawn Michaels comparisons. Hart? Check, because he legitimately deserved it. He didn't earn the perfect storm "angry younger brother" angle - that was natural. And half of his heat came as result of his brother's popluarity. But the guy had skill in working a crowd. I bought him being upset seeing Bret getting hurt at the Survivor Series vs Bob Backlund, the way he player Davey and his own mother was masterful. This is the one and only spot Owen has the edge.

Morrison in 20 minutes.

 

[Uncle Phatso]

i think wcw being a shit house with wrestlers warrior might beat jushin but im not sure. lets see jushin is from japan the land ware wrestiling is still a sport and they still believe in different storylines and people work there fuckin ass off most of the time. warroir while he wrestled was prety good won a few titles had alot of fans but im not sure ima go with jushin on this one

 

[tarp]

How his is not 100 percent is beyond me. This is not even a question. Yes Sting has all of the above mentioned. All is anyone has to do is look at Clash of the Champions agains The Naitch and that one match alone should make you vote for Sting over Noble.

 

[strafro]

I totally agree with CA in that the only things Jeff Hardy has done in his career is repeatedly change the color of hair and jump off of high shit. The guy is awful and should not go over Jerry Lynn. The only way Jeff Hardy has improved in the past 5 years is that now he occasionally connects with a Whisper in the Wind.

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

Yep, Jerry Lynn is totally getting screwed over in this one, just as I thought. Jeff Hardy isn't half the athlete that Lynn is and the "This is not a popularity contest" rule should be thrown out the window because that is the only reason he is getting votes. Jerry Lynn paved the road for the likes of Jeff Hardy and this is how the fans repay him?

 

[fongp88]

Tag Team Title. Morrison? Check, first with a fired Joey Mercury, now with The Miz. Hart? Check. WITH YOKOZUNA!

Hart also won tag titles with the Bristish Bulldog and Jeff Jarret when the WWF/WWE actually had good tag teams like The Quebecers, Smoking Guns, Diesel and Shawn Michaels, Austin and Michales. And even though Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang are definitely they can hardly be considered in the class of opponents that Owen Hart had.

 

[Slyfox696]

Flopping around like a fish out of water hardly is selling well.

No, but taking opponents offense and making it look like he was hurt by it is. And that's what Hardy does.

Jerry Lynn has gone to the last four "major" promotions and done fairly well in each, minus the WWE of course because they don't know how to use cruiserweights correctly.

Jeff Hardy and Jerry Lynn pretty much the same, around 215 pounds. Rey Mysterio weighs less than both of them.

Maybe it's just because Lynn isn't that good.

He adapts to the style that he is being booked to do. If Paul Heyman wants a match like he did with RVD, that has nothign to do with Jerry Lynn, that's the booking.

How was Heyman's booking responsible for the garbage matches that were random spot after random spot between Lynn and RVD?

Blatant opinion, and I happen to have one. I see a Jeff Hardy match now, and I see the same match I saw five years ago. A guy doing flips and nothing more. He has a unique look to distract from his lack of talent.

I suggest you watch Hardy matches a little more closely then. I know you hate the Hardys, Jeff in particular, but you really should watch with less bias.

I think that says more for Umaga then anyone. Umaga had a helluva year in 2007 and had good matches with almost everyone he was with. It's the same thing as Jeff Hardy's "great" match with the Undertaker. Of course that had everythign to do with Jeff Hardy and nothing to do with the Undertaker.

Umaga did have a great year, but so did Jeff. He was part of a rousing 3 team tag match at Armageddon, had a solid run with The Hardyz had a great run with the IC belt early in the year, and is having another great run with it now. Hardy has brought respectability back to the Intercontinental championship, and made it feel respectable again.

The only thing Jerry Lynn does is get responses based on his matches in old ECW, which was EXACTLY the same kind of matches you are bagging on Hardy for doing.

Yep, Jerry Lynn is totally getting screwed over in this one, just as I thought. Jeff Hardy isn't half the athlete that Lynn is and the "This is not a popularity contest" rule should be thrown out the window because that is the only reason he is getting votes. Jerry Lynn paved the road for the likes of Jeff Hardy and this is how the fans repay him?

I think I have more than explained why Hardy is a better choice than Lynn. Lynn is just as spotty and over for the same reason as Hardy is, he's just not as popular because of it.

 

[Shocky]

I honestly believe that Jamie Noble is the better wrestler pound for pound. If Noble was the size of someone even like Benoit, I think more people would take notice of him. All that being said, he's just too small, especially with an aggressive powerhouse like Sting that has some technical ability to counter Noble. The DNA game was not favorable for Noble. I really think he could have been something if he was just 4 or 5 inches taller.

 

[Shocky]

I voted for John Cena, simply because the guy can go. It wasn't an easy decision either. I am a big fan of Finlay, ever since his WCW days, so that's the backhalf of hiscareer to say the least. I think that a vote for Finlay is certainly justified.

Sly, just because a guy is boring doens't mean he's not a good wrestler. American wrestling fans have the attention span of a two year old child. If they aren't over saturated with over the top theme music and entrance lights, then they simply tune out. Finlay is a damn good wrestler, and has been appreciated in the business long before the midget.

 

[Shocky]

I think a vote for etiher guy is justified, but I went with Samoa Joe. He isn't as good as he is sold, but he's still good enough. He's a solid big man wrestler and he's stiff as hell. Certainly not a squash though. It could go jsut as easily the other direction. all it takes is a misstep, and Thesz has him tapping.

 

[Shocky]

Give it a few years, and this match would be better, as for now, it's a no contest. Roberts is so damn good, and is easily in that category of best to never win a world title. I think McGuinness maybe overall better move for move, but he certainly isn't smarter then the Snake. The Snake gets into your head and makes you screw up, and that's exactly what will happen before the short arm clothesline and DDT.

 

[Shocky]

This stinks, because both guys deserve to move onto the second round. Savage should win this oen, and easily defeat his opponent in the next round seeing as that is becoming a joke. Savage could have been one of the greatest of all time, but regardless, he is held in high respect anyway. Savage wins in what would have beena classic.

 

[Shocky]

Sly, not every match has to have Vince McMahon style of booking to be a good match. Paul Heyman's booking emphasized athleticism over story telling, that's what he did. Jerry Lynn adapted to that style of match that Heyman wanted. If the guy botches because he is 20 minutes into a thirty minute match and going 100%, I have no problem with that. It's the style he is asked to work, and he did the job he was supposed to do. I didn't see that Jerry Lynn when he was in WCW as JL, or even last year in TNA. He works the matches he is asked too. And y ou can't defend the WWE and it's treatment of the Cruiserweight division, you know the one with that guy as champion...

Mysterio is pushed because he is marketable. You take the mask off of Rey Mysterio, he's just another short guy that Vince McMahon would probably put a cowboy hat on and run out of town eventually.

which brings me to Jeff Hardy. Am I Biased towards the Hardy Boys, yes, moreso to Jeff then Matt Hardy. Matt has impressed me and has improved, Jeff has stayed the same. These wonderful matches everyone tries to tell me about are stereotypical Jeff Hardy boring matches. What exactly has he done so wonderful with the IC title to add value to it. You mean defending it on pay per view against, oh wait, he doesn't. I have watched wrestling for 20 plus years, and I watch objectively. It is Jeff Hardy that has turned me against Jeff Hardy. His refusal to adapt and do something different is what turns me off to the guy. If I was biased going into matches, then I would have stopped watching John Cena matches in 2005, because he wasn't going to get any better.

Just because Jeff Hardy is getting pushed, doesn't make him the better wrestler, it means he's more marketable and knows the right people behind the scenes. Jerry Lynn should beat Jeff Hardy in any match, in any promotion, with any rules, and in any ring.