[Official] John Cena Thread

[Shocky]

I think we've had this conversation about this fifty pages ago. God the circle talk continues in the Cena thread.

Yes in theory the STFU is booked horribly. The move is nice. It's grown on me. I think Cena applies it fairly well. But the rest is out of Cena's control.

The WWE wants to book it similar to the Crippler Crossface, but in actuality, it's a Million Dollar Dream. Wouldn't it be silly to see someone tapping out in a sleeper hold. Of course it would. But people can't put the blame on Cena for htis one. The blame solely lies on the Booking staff telling the guy doing the 'job" that they have to tap to a move that, in reality, they should be passing out too.

 

[Slyfox696]

No, completely right! If he was trying to weaken his opponent with a sleeper, cut off the oxygen and blood flow, wouldn't they, in fact, slowly fade away and have their arms raised three times to show that they are passed out? I mean, if you are saying that he is applying a sleeper hold, then why are they able to continuosly fight to get to the bottom rope, until they eventually TAP OUT from some sort of pain!

Let me ask you this. Do you watch UFC, or any MMA?

Do they do a three hand up and down count in MMA? Or, if I were to get you in a triangle choke, would you tap out?

The answer, of course, is that you would tap out.

Problem solved.

If Cena were really implying this move to be a sleeper type of submission, he would wrap his entire arm around the throat area to completely cut off the oxygen.

That would be an illegal choke. That would not be allowed.

Geez.

I think we've had this conversation about this fifty pages ago. God the circle talk continues in the Cena thread.

It always will.

At least until the newest reason to bash Cena comes along. Right now, we're stuck in the "stale character, stale title reign, stale moveset" mode. A couple years ago it was "he's not a rapper, poor salute, hate his music video, can't wrestle"....whatever.

No matter what Cena does, and no matter how much he changes, people are still going to find ways to justify booing him two years ago.

Wouldn't it be silly to see someone tapping out in a sleeper hold. Of course it would. But people can't put the blame on Cena for htis one. The blame solely lies on the Booking staff telling the guy doing the 'job" that they have to tap to a move that, in reality, they should be passing out too.

They don't in MMA, so I really don't see why tapping out would be that big of a deal.

 

[Oasys]

In case you haven't notice, this is not MMA. In the WWE, you do NOT tap out to sleepers.
The STFU is a sleeper hold that causes the opponents to tap out. I completely agree with Shock that it is not Cena's fault. However, Slyfox, you have just shown us that you will defend or make an excuse for the man, no matter what the argument. I call that bullshitting

 

[Slyfox696]

In case you haven't notice, this is not MMA. In the WWE, you do NOT tap out to sleepers.
The STFU is a sleeper hold that causes the opponents to tap out. I completely agree with Shock that it is not Cena's fault. However, Slyfox, you have just shown us that you will defend or make an excuse for the man, no matter what the argument. I call that bullshitting

Who gives a damn about Cena in this case? It makes sense in ANY circumstance.

If Undertaker were to make people tap out with a triangle choke, I'd feel the same way. The whole purpose of professional wrestling is to entertain, but at the same time, entertain in a realistic manner.

But, if Undertaker made someone tap out with a triangle choke, would anybody complain then? When Samoa Joe makes people tap out with the Coquina Clutch, does anyone complain then?

I argue that it's not me finding every defense or excuse for the man, but rather haters nitpicking to find every reason to bash the man.

 

[kennedy316]

i agree with most of that. i like cena but i do believe his time as champ is over. i am personally tired of seeing him with the belt knowing that there are better and more deserving wrestlers that could hold the belt like mr kennedy

 

[SSJPhenom]

First off, Taker' has never made anyone submit with the Triangle Choke! The last time that he used was against Kurt Angle at No Way Out 06 and that is how Angle won the match. Everytime that Taker' has ever used that submission his opponents have faded away as the should in professional wrestling. This isn't the damn MMA!

Can you just not agree that seeing someone tap out to a sleeper like submission is just plain dumb? How would you like to see someone tap out to Roddy Piper's sleeper? You'd be mad as hell, especially if it was Cena! I will agree however, that it isn't Cena's doing that his oppenents tap, it is the booking of th WWE. But I will stand firm, in that I do believe the way that he applys the submission is ridiculous!

 

[Slyfox696]

First off, Taker' has never made anyone submit with the Triangle Choke!

Who said he did?

This isn't the damn MMA!

Tell that to CM Punk.

Can you just not agree that seeing someone tap out to a sleeper like submission is just plain dumb?

Why would I, when it's not?

How would you like to see someone tap out to Roddy Piper's sleeper?

I wouldn't care.

You'd be mad as hell, especially if it was Cena!

Why?

I will agree however, that it isn't Cena's doing that his oppenents tap, it is the booking of th WWE. But I will stand firm, in that I do believe the way that he applys the submission is ridiculous!

Why don't you complain when Joe's opponents tap out?

Additionally, am I the only who remembers when NOBODY tapped out? People want to talk about how "this isn't MMA", and yet, don't complain that people never used to tap out in wrestling before MMA became more well-known. If you think that MMA didn't/doesn't have a major impact on professional wrestling, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

 

[psykohurricane]

i agree with most of that. i like cena but i do believe his time as champ is over. i am personally tired of seeing him with the belt knowing that there are better and more deserving wrestlers that could hold the belt like mr kennedy

I Completly agree with you on this because i'm a fan of John Cena but it is time for him to lose the belt but the main problem is that there is nobody outside of HHH that can take the belt away from Cena and not be a problem down the road if the US congress decides to go against the WWE. If you were a multi million company like the WWE is and you have the US Congress against you, Would you put a Guy like Randy Orton or Mr. Kennedy as your spokeperson. I wouldn'T because it would be a use risk and i could lose a lot of money by doing this. So the problem on Raw is that all the main eventer and most of the upper mid-carder that could be WWE champion material are either injured or suspended. I don'T tell me that Randy Orton is a main eventer that wasn'T suspended because the only thing that save him was that he'S protected by some powerful people within the company. So the Point is, until this whole scandal is over, the smart thing to do is to either give the belt to HHH or keep it on Cena and either way, we lose.

 

[Oasys]

Who gives a damn about Cena in this case? It makes sense in ANY circumstance.

This is a Cena thread. If your argument has nothing to do with Cena, take it to the spam zone.

If Undertaker were to make people tap out with a triangle choke, I'd feel the same way. The whole purpose of professional wrestling is to entertain, but at the same time, entertain in a realistic manner.

Baseball is a form of entertainment. If the MLB suddenly allowed the base runners to drive golf carts around the diamond, it would be entertaining. It does not represent the sport well though. The same can be said for tapping to a sleeper.
Yes, in MMA, fighters have tapped out to sleepers. But as I said earlier, this is the WWE.

But, if Undertaker made someone tap out with a triangle choke, would anybody complain then?

The Undertaker has never made someone submit to a sleeper hold.

When Samoa Joe makes people tap out with the Coquina Clutch, does anyone complain then?

You really like to bring different companies into this.. Samoa Joe is on TNA. When and if he comes to the WWE and uses the Coquina Clutch, I will complain.

I argue that it's not me finding every defense or excuse for the man, but rather haters nitpicking to find every reason to bash the man.

He is the WWE Champion. He is going to be scrutinized and ridiculed when flaws are found. Get used to the nitpicking

 

[Slyfox696]

This is a Cena thread. If your argument has nothing to do with Cena, take it to the spam zone.

It has to do with Cena, but it has more to do with the issue on a grand scale. It deals with Cena, because he uses a sleeper submission. But, it applies to ANYONE who uses a sleeper submission. It has to do with Cena, but it's bigger than just Cena.

It does not represent the sport well though. The same can be said for tapping to a sleeper.
Yes, in MMA, fighters have tapped out to sleepers. But as I said earlier, this is the WWE.

This statement confused me. Pro wrestling is a form of theater portraying an imitation of real fighting. If you're wanting to represent the "real" sport, which is MMA, then why would they not do it?

The Undertaker has never made someone submit to a sleeper hold.

Who said he did?

You really like to bring different companies into this.. Samoa Joe is on TNA. When and if he comes to the WWE and uses the Coquina Clutch, I will complain.

I'm discussing Pro Wrestling. If it's "silly" for the WWE to do it, then it should be "silly" for others to do it.

I don't think it's silly at all, and could care less which company we're discussing.

 

[Oasys]

This statement confused me. Pro wrestling is a form of theater portraying an imitation of real fighting. If you're wanting to represent the "real" sport, which is MMA, then why would they not do it?

Slyfox, if you will, leave other brands and companies out of this. We are discussing the WWE. In the WWE, the STFU is the only sleeper submission I know of. With that being said, it seems out of place in the WWE

Who said he did?

You brought it up. If Taker has never done this, then don't bring it up. Your only wasting my time

I'm discussing Pro Wrestling. If it's "silly" for the WWE to do it, then it should be "silly" for others to do it.

I don't think it's silly at all, and could care less which company we're discussing.

This is a WWE related thread. You would think by now a person could understand this.. We are not discussing MMA or TNA. Only the WWE. Is that difficult to understand?

 

[SSJPhenom]

Cena using a submission hold is about as crazy as Vicsera using high flying attacks. Wouldn't that be a site? But Sly, you have said on countless occassions that he is a ground and pound sort of guy (to defend his limited moveset) so why then, would he use a submission? A ridiculous one at that!

 

[Slyfox696]

But Sly, you have said on countless occassions that he is a ground and pound sort of guy (to defend his limited moveset)

I said that? When?

so why then, would he use a submission? A ridiculous one at that!

Because it works?

 

[PlatynumX420]

!

Can you just not agree that seeing someone tap out to a sleeper like submission is just plain dumb? !

I can agree with that.Seeing someone tap out to Piper's sleeper would look wrong.Watching wrestling for years you learn that a person in a sleeper hold gets worn down and 'goes to sleep' because 'bloodflow and oxygen are cut off from the brain" (kayfabe).They either pass out and get there arm dropped 3 times or they get that sudden rush and break out of the hold. There is no 'pain' inflicted in a sleeper hold to tap out to or thats what i ve been lead to believe since i was 4.

The whole purpose of professional wrestling is to entertain, but at the same time, entertain in a realistic manner.

Which goes back to the end of what i was saying.People tapping out to the stfu undoes years of kayfabe sleeper holds.Whats supposed to be real here? Should Hogan have tapped to Piper at Starrcade 96 or 'passed out' like he did?

 

[a7xoff]

Geesh this thread goes in circles... So now here I go again defending what Sly is saying about the whole tapping out to a sleeper thing. It's WWE who has people tap. Also when your in a sleeper hold, it's very hard to breathe as that is the point of it right? Well rather then pass out people can tap out. I've seen it on numerous occasions it's a pretty basic science. If you know you can't escape and don't want to pass out. Tap out.
As for Cena using a submission. If my memory serves me right he had no choice, but to pick up a submission move since he had a submission only match I think against Angle. It got over really well as his finisher, so that's probably why WWE decided to keep it as such.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Which goes back to the end of what i was saying.People tapping out to the stfu undoes years of kayfabe sleeper holds.Whats supposed to be real here? Should Hogan have tapped to Piper at Starrcade 96 or 'passed out' like he did?[/QUOTE]

This is a perfect example. If Hogan would have tapped in this match, I would have been outraged. It would have been just stupid to see!

But the fact that people are tapping out to a sleeper hold aside, the STF-U is a dumb ass move! Cena shouldn't be doing submission wrestling. He needs to stick to his ungodly strength. (even I can admit, that boy is strong) If he would just add a little unpredictability to his matches, he wouldn't be that bad to watch! Right now, however, the man is just an eye sore!

 

[PlatynumX420]

Well rather then pass out people can tap out. I've seen it on numerous occasions it's a pretty basic science. If you know you can't escape ....

And there in lies the problem.If you know you can't escape ,after trying to worm free or make it the ropes you have been in the hold for a few seconds.In
a sleeper hold those few seconds could be the begining of you going down to the ground 'passing out'.Now then after being in the move for seconds trying to get free or to the ropes,using energy and wearing yourself down in addition to the blood/air flow block to the head, and you realize "oh crap i m done i can't escape' you tap when it would seem more realistic to just pass out?

Or there is the option of if the wrestler is a pussy and doesnt try to get out and instantly taps .But i guess that's why theres people like Val Venis still around to make anyone look good. (J.O.B. Squad lives on. lol)

...and don't want to pass out.

I wouldn't think the person in the move would have that much say in the matter.They would be passing out by the time they determined they were S.O.L. and wanted to tap.

Tap out.

stick a fork in me i m done

 

[a7xoff]

Platynum I agree with what you and others are saying that it's stupid for people to tap to the STFU, but you gotta look at what we're dealing with. WWE creative... enough said about that. Yes it would be a bit more logical to have the wrestler pass out rather then tap out. What I was talking about before I was referring to local events and what not that I've seen, I was just saying that it's not all un common for someone to tap to a sleeper. Getting back to Mr. Cena though... Most of the time it doesn't take his opponent long to tap to the STFU. It's almost like as soon as he locks it in, if his opponent is not like inches from the rope, it's over in a matter of seconds. I agree that Cena should not be using submissions, but again that's nowhere near in our control.

 

[mikeb619]

Cena Cena Cena is one of the most contriversial superstars ever and i can sai i really used to hate him but now i kinda like the guy sure he sucks at wrestling but he sells tickets come on if u dont agree go to a raw evnt and hear the 10,000 fans there scream thier heads off when they see him.

 

[R G]

Alright, I see a lot of people saying that the STFU is a sleeper hold and its a dumb move for a finisher. Other people use the sleeper hold and don't tap out to it. True. Has anyone had a finisher that other people have done, and it never ended the match? Yes.

Take the Masterlock by Chris Masters. All that is is a Full Nelson, except he used the "master grip." Other people have used full nelsons in wrestling before, and they never always got the tap out. So why isn't there a thread concerning Chris Masters and everyone complaining all he's using is a full nelson. And if someone is going to say a full nelson actually hurts, try receiving a sleeper hold at full force by someone who is straight up jacked. Trust me, it does not feel good.

How about Super Crazy, Jimmy Yang Wang, and the many others who use the Moonsault as a finisher. Shawn Micheals used the moonsault (sparingly), but that's not his finisher, and it doens't end the match. Why isn't there a thread concerning all of those who use the moonsault as finishers?

No one should complain about the STFU being a weak submission.

Oh, and for the record, I am not a Cena fan. I am one of the 196 + people that said I am not a fan of his.

 

[iget4:20higher]

Maybe because they perform the move beautifully. Have you seen Super Crazy perform the moonsault? Cena is a joke and I actually used to like him before he got all buffed up. Then he came as slow and just plain boring. Chris Masters performs the move fairly so it is pretty believable. Hell I lost a Trampoline match last week because of that move.

The FU is about as effective as a scoop slam or as a regular nothin special suplex. That's why people hate it. The STFU is poorly executed and could be done extremely good if he actually practiced it more.....or had more wrestling skill. The only time I've seen it done well is on Shawn Michaels. IF you've ever seen him lock it in you can see a 3 inch gap between his wrists/hands and the throat area so that's telling you something right there.

 

[Slyfox696]

Maybe because they perform the move beautifully. Have you seen Super Crazy perform the moonsault? Cena is a joke and I actually used to like him before he got all buffed up. Then he came as slow and just plain boring. Chris Masters performs the move fairly so it is pretty believable. Hell I lost a Trampoline match last week because of that move.

The FU is about as effective as a scoop slam or as a regular nothin special suplex. That's why people hate it. The STFU is poorly executed and could be done extremely good if he actually practiced it more.....or had more wrestling skill. The only time I've seen it done well is on Shawn Michaels. IF you've ever seen him lock it in you can see a 3 inch gap between his wrists/hands and the throat area so that's telling you something right there.

Aww, hell, I'll respond to this. Not sure why though.

1. Cena was bigger when he first started in the WWE, than he is now. He was a bodybuilder before starting wrestling.

2. You're not supposed to cut off air through the windpipe in a sleeper. That would be an illegal choke. In a sleeper, you cut off circulation through the major artery that goes to the brain, the carotid artery, in particular, the internal carotid artery.

 

[iget4:20higher]

1.) How does that have anything to do with what I said? I liked him in his old U.S title reign days and the way he wrestled back then. I never said what his job was and I certainly don't care.

2.) Again I never said that he has to appropriately choke them. He just has to make it more believable. When he did it on Shawn it looked passable yet he can't do it on anyone else.

 

[Slyfox696]

1.) How does that have anything to do with what I said? I liked him in his old U.S title reign days and the way he wrestled back then. I never said what his job was and I certainly don't care.

You said you liked him before he got all buff and slow.

That didn't make any sense.

2.) Again I never said that he has to appropriately choke them. He just has to make it more believable. When he did it on Shawn it looked passable yet he can't do it on anyone else.

If you don't want him to choke someone, why does how far his hands come from the opponents throat have to do with anything?

 

[iget4:20higher]

You said you liked him before he got all buff and slow.

That didn't make any sense.

If you don't want him to choke someone, why does how far his hands come from the opponents throat have to do with anything?

How doesn't it make sense that I liked him when he was a mid-carder and had the white rapper gimmick? He wasn't all slow and boring back then not to mention buff.

So ummm I dont know......it looks beliavable? When you see him apply it like shit, which is basicly 3.5/4 of the time, then mark and non-wrestling fans can obviously point out that wrestling is fake. The point of wrestling is to make it believable and with him applying the lock like shit then it obviously fails.