[Official] John Cena Thread

[X]

I can admit when I'm wrong, you seem to be right on the PPV buyrate situation.

And no, I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking your opinion. About your smarmy little comment that RAW wasn't around when guys like Marty Janetty and Tito Santana were around(even though they both were in the WWF when RAW started. Marty in particuliar has been on RAW many, many times) it doesn't change the fact that the best wrestlers are not always the one's in the top spots of a company or promotion. Steamboat and Funk are two glaring examples of that, and for that degree so was Owen Hart, Davey Boy Smith and the Dynamite Kid.

However you haven't addressed the main concern of the entire Cena arguement---the man is a terrible wrestler. He is simply not exciting to watch in the least. You always know what's going to happen in every match within the first five minutes---THAT SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING! When guys like Rock, Austin, HHH, HBK, Bret Hart, Diesel, all were champs you never knew what was coming next. Perhaps you can blame that on the booking, but it doesn't change the fact that his wrestling ability, quite simply, is shit.

That is the foundation for every wrestling fan's hatred for John Cena. He is one of the worst men to ever step into a ring and tell a story. He has yet to participate in a single feud even halfway memorable. The only notable one was with Edge where they had a good TLC match, one of the few times I'll give Cena props for a job well done. And let's be honest, Edge carried that match. Had Cena ever even been in a ladder match before that? Edge is a veteran of what, twenty ladder matches?

Bottom line is that Cena's wrestling ability is something you can't debate about. It's crystal clear: watch every single match he's ever done if you like, and then compare it with any other main event wrestling in the WWE and you'll see how utterly terrible his quality of work is. Cena will only be remembered as a hack who was handed the ball to run with and was able to achieve moderate success because of an influx of younger fans flocking to the wrestling product and bringing us back to the days of Hulkamania. Only one thing though--- Hogan could entertain you. Cena just can't.

 

[Shocky]

I wouldn't necessarily trust the numbers that WWE throws out at you. Historically the WWE has been a number fudger when it comes to pay per view buys and attendance figures.

Sports Illustrated ran an article earlier this year showign that WWE ppv buys were down, and that the UFC was out drawing them. UFC outdrew WWE's ppv buys with 4 less pay per views, and with a lot less name recognition.

UFC’s 2006 PPV revenues were almost $223 million, compared with $177 million for boxing on HBO and $200 million for WWE

And with those 2002 figures, lets not forget the WWE's big escape clause with those lose numbers. they said that those numbers were caused by Spike TV not properly promoting the product. They have moved back to USA and draw on average, a 3.6. Vince has sworn that USA would get him back up over 4.0, which it did with Edge and RVD as champion, even Cena. The key is, short title reigns. People despise long title reigns, especially from a champion that doesnt deserve to be champion, it's that simple. The product is stale. Cena worries too much about filming movies and making music, therefore pissing on the fans that put out money to watch shit. This is why the UFC is outdrawing the WWE when it comes down to pay per view buys, people simply refuse to pay for bullshit.

And the merchandising thing is true. Lets not forget, the WWE is the king of revisionist history. Of course they are manipulating merchandising sales. They confiscate Cena Sucks signs at WWE PPV's. They let the Cena Riot sign slide, because they were trying to creat an ECW environment, but outside of that, you read almost weekly of signs being confiscated that go against WWE storylines.

Cena was on Raw for a quarter of the show every week. Look at the beginning of the year when he was both tag and WWE champion, often putting on two matches a night, plus a promo. That is shoving someone down our throats, much like what they are doign with Bobby Lashley right now.

 

[Slyfox696]

I can admit when I'm wrong, you seem to be right on the PPV buyrate situation.

What about the ratings increase since Cena has taken over as champion, or when compared to Undertaker?

That's not a sarcastic reply, but more of a "do you see anything wrong with what I said" type reply. It's a genuine question, not made in sarcasm.

And no, I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking your opinion. About your smarmy little comment that RAW wasn't around when guys like Marty Janetty and Tito Santana were around(even though they both were in the WWF when RAW started. Marty in particuliar has been on RAW many, many times) it doesn't change the fact that the best wrestlers are not always the one's in the top spots of a company or promotion. Steamboat and Funk are two glaring examples of that, and for that degree so was Owen Hart, Davey Boy Smith and the Dynamite Kid.

Well, you mentioned Funk, Race, and Steamboat about being on Raw. And, Raw wasn't around when they were in the company. And, I agree that the best wrestlers are not always in the top spot of a company. Look no further than Batista for proof of that. Some say Lashley, but I think Lashley has shown lots of improvement, is the champion on the THIRD brand of WWE (and thus, not an important one), and I think he has a heck of a lot of potential, not just for drawing, but also for good matches.

And, the problem with Steamboat was political more than anything else. Steamboat wanted time to be with his family. Well, that is certainly good of him, but it does put the company in a crunch if he's the champion and suddenly wants to leave. It's hard to depend on a guy like that. Additionally, he was only in the WWF for three years or so, which, at the time, was generally not long enough to win the WWF title. Remember, there was only one main-event title then, and that was completely owned by Hulk Hogan, and for good reason. So, Ricky Steamboat cannot be used as an example. The same goes with Terry Funk and his length of time in the company. As far as Harley Race goes, the man was 43 years old when he entered the WWF. He entered during the prime of Hulkamania. Why should the WWF put the title on a 43 year old man, when Hogan is making them tons of money, and putting on good matches? So, I don't really like that comparison.

Owen Hart died before what is traditionally the prime of a wrestlers career. He had just turned 34 before his horrible accident. Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid both quit the WWF. Dynamite Kid is really the only one here that I could see a legitimate claim to the title based on in-ring ability, but with Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant, the two biggest draws in wrestling history (at that point) at the top of the show, I think it's easy to understand why he was not given a title.

However you haven't addressed the main concern of the entire Cena arguement---the man is a terrible wrestler. He is simply not exciting to watch in the least. You always know what's going to happen in every match within the first five minutes---THAT SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING! When guys like Rock, Austin, HHH, HBK, Bret Hart, Diesel, all were champs you never knew what was coming next. Perhaps you can blame that on the booking, but it doesn't change the fact that his wrestling ability, quite simply, is shit.

Well, I have addressed his wrestling ability with you, you just don't agree. the man is a fantastic storyteller in the ring, and is one of the more realistic sellers in the company (yes, I know HBK at WM...it was one time....if I could count all the times HBK sold poorly, I could probably write a book). For the most part, Cena is a fantastic seller, knows how to work the crowd, has people CARE about him, and is never lost in the ring. He can work the face mode of a match, or the heel mode of the match (like at ONS 2). He can be the one who gets beat down and comes back (like he does quite a bit), or he can be the aggressor (like against HBK on Raw). The man is versatile in and out of the ring, rarely flubs lines on the microphone which is used to build up a match, and the guy has not had a bad match in a long time (although I have not seen the match against Khali yet. I have heard that it was as solid of an affair as one could expect from Khali, and just as good as Khali's match against the Undertaker).

That is the foundation for every wrestling fan's hatred for John Cena. He is one of the worst men to ever step into a ring and tell a story. He has yet to participate in a single feud even halfway memorable. The only notable one was with Edge where they had a good TLC match, one of the few times I'll give Cena props for a job well done. And let's be honest, Edge carried that match. Had Cena ever even been in a ladder match before that? Edge is a veteran of what, twenty ladder matches?

Let me ask you this. What was the last memorable feud in the WWE? In the three shows they have, the last memorable feud that I can think of would be either Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey or Batista vs. Triple H. It's not like the WWE is cranking out memorable feuds for anyone at the moment. And I would say his feud with Edge was the best thing of 2006 (slightly edging out the DX reunion).

I wouldn't necessarily trust the numbers that WWE throws out at you. Historically the WWE has been a number fudger when it comes to pay per view buys and attendance figures.

And with those 2002 figures, lets not forget the WWE's big escape clause with those lose numbers. they said that those numbers were caused by Spike TV not properly promoting the product. They have moved back to USA and draw on average, a 3.6. Vince has sworn that USA would get him back up over 4.0, which it did with Edge and RVD as champion, even Cena. The key is, short title reigns. People despise long title reigns, especially from a champion that doesnt deserve to be champion, it's that simple. The product is stale. Cena worries too much about filming movies and making music, therefore pissing on the fans that put out money to watch shit. This is why the UFC is outdrawing the WWE when it comes down to pay per view buys, people simply refuse to pay for bullshit.

And the merchandising thing is true. Lets not forget, the WWE is the king of revisionist history. Of course they are manipulating merchandising sales. They confiscate Cena Sucks signs at WWE PPV's. They let the Cena Riot sign slide, because they were trying to creat an ECW environment, but outside of that, you read almost weekly of signs being confiscated that go against WWE storylines.

So, are you insinuating that the WWE, a publicly traded company, is making up figures? Because, that is actually a pretty serious charge to lie about the income that is coming into the company and how it is coming into the company.

Or, are you just speculating, because you really have no proof of what you said, but know that it works in Cena's favor so you try to discredit it?

Cena was on Raw for a quarter of the show every week. Look at the beginning of the year when he was both tag and WWE champion, often putting on two matches a night, plus a promo. That is shoving someone down our throats, much like what they are doign with Bobby Lashley right now.

I've given you three straight weeks where Cena was not on the show for more than 15 minutes.

 

[Shocky]

Even on this news site, they have stated that the attendance figures for Wrestlemania were lied about to make it look more impressive with over 80,000, when in actuality the number was around 75,000. I'm not saying that 75,000 isn't impressive, it's just not 80,000.

And as for the ratings, if you look at the #'s, the big bump was from the beginning of the year, when a) Edge was Champion, and b) Triple H was involved in the title situation for the next 3 months, c) the natural Wrestlemania hype. After Summerslam, Cena's title reign is an average rated title reign at best, and still not higher then Edge's 2nd title reign.

We can argue all day about Cena and his drawing power. Everyone is quick to piont out the Undertaker title reign, but he was only helped bgecause of Austin and the Rock in that situation, that's true, but look at the Spike in Cena's 2nd title reign. That was do mainly because Triple H put himself back into the main event scene and bumped ratings. Once Cena was done feuding with Triple H, his numbers went down, and they've gone down since he won the belt at Unforgiven.

Wrestlemania and the 8 or so weeks leading up to it, naturally ahve a larger bump in viewers, that has little to do with who the champion is for the most part, because many casual viewers know that they are getting a halfway decent product leading into WM. The main thing is, can that champion hold onto viewers after the hype of Mania has gone away, and again this year, pre Mania, Raw's are around or over 4.0, and now we're back to the mid 3's again.

 

[Slyfox696]

Even on this news site, they have stated that the attendance figures for Wrestlemania were lied about to make it look more impressive with over 80,000, when in actuality the number was around 75,000. I'm not saying that 75,000 isn't impressive, it's just not 80,000.

There is no proof that attendance was 75,000. It is just speculation, which occurred mostly because of Dave Meltzer's charge that Wrestlemania 3 was not really 90,000+ people. Whether Wrestlemania 3 was lied about, I don't know, but really don't care, as the WWF was not a publicly traded company at the time.

The WWE has to report where all their money is coming from. And, let's say Wrestlemania tickets averaged $50 a ticket, if 5000 tickets are being lied about, you are looking at $250,000 that is not being accounted for. While that is not necessarily a large amount to a near billion dollar company, it is still large enough to be detected and prosecuted for.

I don't know how many people were at Ford Field this year for sure, but I'm going to have to assume, unless concrete evidence is provided contrary, that the WWE is telling the truth.

And as for the ratings, if you look at the #'s, the big bump was from the beginning of the year, when a) Edge was Champion, and b) Triple H was involved in the title situation for the next 3 months, c) the natural Wrestlemania hype. After Summerslam, Cena's title reign is an average rated title reign at best, and still not higher then Edge's 2nd title reign.

Edge was the champion for 2 weeks with high ratings (his reign later in the summer was mid 3s.). Triple H was involved in the title situation in 2005 and 2004 as well. Wrestlemania happens every year.

You cannot use any of that for an excuse. There was one major difference on Raw in 2005 and 2006. And that was John Cena as champion.

We can argue all day about Cena and his drawing power. Everyone is quick to piont out the Undertaker title reign, but he was only helped bgecause of Austin and the Rock in that situation, that's true, but look at the Spike in Cena's 2nd title reign. That was do mainly because Triple H put himself back into the main event scene and bumped ratings. Once Cena was done feuding with Triple H, his numbers went down, and they've gone down since he won the belt at Unforgiven.

I thought you said that spike was due mainly to it being a Wrestlemania build-up??

Wrestlemania and the 8 or so weeks leading up to it, naturally ahve a larger bump in viewers, that has little to do with who the champion is for the most part, because many casual viewers know that they are getting a halfway decent product leading into WM. The main thing is, can that champion hold onto viewers after the hype of Mania has gone away, and again this year, pre Mania, Raw's are around or over 4.0, and now we're back to the mid 3's again.

Well, unless I'm mistaken, Wretlemania happens every year. And John Cena has been champion leading up to Wrestlemania both in 2006 and 2007, and was chasing the title in 2005. He was NOT champion nor was he chasing the title leading up to Wrestlemania 2004. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say exactly.

Also, I want to point out, that Wrestlemania 23, drew the most PPV buys EVER for a wrestling show And, who was the champion and the main-eventer? John Cena. And, to further put icing on the cake, he did with HBK, who has never been a historically strong draw (although seems to be a better draw later in his career than earlier).

 

[X]

Woah, woah, WOAH slyfox.

Wrestlemania 23 had the largest buyrates of any wrestling PPV ever? No way in hell could that be true in the slightest. Let's see some proof of that claim because it makes absolutely no sense that the most PPV buyrates would be for a lackluster WM23 card then say, Attitude Era WWF with guys like Rock and Austin on the top. That just doesn't sound true in the slightest to me.

 

[Slyfox696]

Woah, woah, WOAH slyfox.

Wrestlemania 23 had the largest buyrates of any wrestling PPV ever? No way in hell could that be true in the slightest. Let's see some proof of that claim because it makes absolutely no sense that the most PPV buyrates would be for a lackluster WM23 card then say, Attitude Era WWF with guys like Rock and Austin on the top. That just doesn't sound true in the slightest to me.

Ok, here it is...

WWE has announced that the first estimate on buys from WrestleMania 23 was 1.2 million buys. This already makes it the largest pro wrestling PPV event in history. Domestic buys look to be coming in at 768,000 for the event.

Last year's WrestleMania did 980,000 total buys with 636,000 domestic.

http://www.prowrestlingscoops.com/article/180228780.php


Now, to be fair, Attitude era PPVs did not have international buys. So, domestically, Wrestlemania 23 did not do as well as Wrestlemania 17, which is the greatest PPV buys of domestic PPVs. I seem to remember that it came in just under the 1 million mark.

However, it does not change the fact that Wrestlemania 23 IS the greatest bought wrestling PPV ever, and that it did better than both Wrestlemania 21 and 22, both of which included international buys.


On a side note, I have looked on the WWE Corporate website many times to see if I could find domestic buys and international buys from PPVs...I have never been able to find it. So, in terms of domestic buys, I do not know how it ranks with others, but I have to believe fairly high.

 

[Shocky]

Wrestlemania 23 is estimated to do around 950,000 buys, it's an estimate, but largely in part to McMahon vs. Trump being in the mainstream media. Wrestlemania 14 had as much to do with Mike Tyson as it did with Steve Austin, so I wouldn't necessarily put everything on John Cena as far as WM 23 goes.

Triple H and the Main Event at Wrestlemania the last 4 years almost go hand in hand. He would have been in the main event this year if it wasn't for another busted quad, again, speculation on the news site in September of last year pointed to that.

As for 2006, if you look athe numbers, a large part of the high ratings was at the beginning of the year. The latter half of the year, the numbers started to drop again.

I'm not an Idiot, I get why Cena is on top. The WWE is in it's trash cycle again. They are trying to make another Hulk Hogan, so in ten years they can turn Cena heel and piss off all of the young fans that he gets now, thus creating another attitude era. Try as the WWE may, Cena isn't getting over with the crowd. He still gets boo'ed to this day when he comes out and his matches are far from 5 star quality. You seem to be a smart guy, and you understand the business, does John Cena do it for you as a champion? It's fine if he does, that's your perogative.

* I really like this guy. He's like a Kaedon, but he's actually really good, and not a whiny bitch like him.

** If you find domestic buys let me know, because I've been wanting to make a thread based on champions and buyrates. Those things are almost impossible to find, and damn, I undershot WM 23 by about 500,000

 

[Slyfox696]

Wrestlemania 23 is estimated to do around 950,000 buys, it's an estimate, but largely in part to McMahon vs. Trump being in the mainstream media. Wrestlemania 14 had as much to do with Mike Tyson as it did with Steve Austin, so I wouldn't necessarily put everything on John Cena as far as WM 23 goes.

That may be true, but you have to admit that the number one champion of the number 1 brand main-eventing Wrestlemania has a significant part of a buyrate. I don't disagree that McMahon vs. Trump had an impact as well, but you have to give Cena credit as well.

Triple H and the Main Event at Wrestlemania the last 4 years almost go hand in hand. He would have been in the main event this year if it wasn't for another busted quad, again, speculation on the news site in September of last year pointed to that.

This, I totally agree with. Of course, what does that say when, the one year he's not in the main event, or contending for a main-event title since Wrestlemania 17, the show breaks the record for most PPV buys for a wrestling show ever? Now, I'm not going to dispute HHH's drawing power, but it is something to ponder over.

As for 2006, if you look athe numbers, a large part of the high ratings was at the beginning of the year. The latter half of the year, the numbers started to drop again.

That happens every year, even back in 2001. It really is irrelevant to the discussion of when and how Cena's ratings come from.

I'm not an Idiot, I get why Cena is on top. The WWE is in it's trash cycle again. They are trying to make another Hulk Hogan, so in ten years they can turn Cena heel and piss off all of the young fans that he gets now, thus creating another attitude era. Try as the WWE may, Cena isn't getting over with the crowd. He still gets boo'ed to this day when he comes out and his matches are far from 5 star quality. You seem to be a smart guy, and you understand the business, does John Cena do it for you as a champion? It's fine if he does, that's your perogative.

He does do it for me. And, as much for what he does out of the ring as what he does in the ring. He's certainly not the second coming of Bret Hart, but I think he puts on believable matches, full of emotion, and he ALWAYS has a hot crowd for his PPV matches (from the ones I've seen at least).

But, more important to me than that, is the man's character. Now, I'm not referring to his wrestling character, I'm talking about the man's personal integrity and character. The guy busts his ass every single day for the company. He does autograph signings and media appearances, not to mention his house show work, being at Raw every week, the fact that he has missed exactly ONE PPV since Summerslam (December 2 Dismember he didn't appear), and has done all of that while constantly getting criticized, many times for things that are completely out of his control ("hogging spotlight, poor character, bad jokes, never losing" etc.).

The man has, to the best of my knowledge, NEVER had a negative thing said about him by any of the dirtsheets, minus one incident at an airport. He seems to be a genuinely good person, which can be seen on the episode of "Punk'd" that he was on. He handled himself like a pro in a situation where many other wrestlers (Orton maybe?) would have just completely flew off the handled. He was professional and courteous, and that seems like that is the real him. He seems to have a genuine love and passion for the business and works his ass off day and night to try and entertain the fans.

For me, that means just as much as any match ever could.

I realize not everyone feels that way, and could care less what the man was like, but I have to respect someone like that, especially in a business where it seems like it is the exception, rather than the rule.

* I really like this guy. He's like a Kaedon, but he's actually really good, and not a whiny bitch like him.

Are you talking about me?

** If you find domestic buys let me know, because I've been wanting to make a thread based on champions and buyrates. Those things are almost impossible to find, and damn, I undershot WM 23 by about 500,000

I once found a site which listed the top buys domestically ever, but it wasn't exactly credible. I mean, everything looked right and in proper order, but there was no way to validate what was said.

 

[Shocky]

Just a history on Kaedon. Kaedon was a damn good poster that disagreed with everything almost anyone on here had to say. He backed up his arguements, but the 2nd someone found something that debunked something he said, he bitched and started a flame war. So when I compare you to a Kaedon, minus teh bitching, I mean it with a ton of respect. Like you've said before, it's not easy coming into a board during a flame war. So far you've done nothing but stick to your arguements and not back down, something this site has lacked for a while as far as Cena fans go. It's a welcome site to see someone go against the grain.

As far as your personal comments on Cena, I have to agree. I've listened to Cena on local sports talk radio, and the man carries himself very well. He isn't Hogan with the attitude problem, Triple H with the power trips. Stone Cold with the occasional beaten wife syndrome, or the Rock beating up the San Diego Aztecs mascot. Cena has kept his nose clean, and that is an admirable thing for a guy on the road 300 days a year. I could see him, with a little more ring work, being Vince McMahon's Corporate Champino 10 years ago.

That all being said, I think it's a lot for the WWE to ask fans taht have grown up with the product to take it from 5th gear with guys like Austin, rock, Angle, Michaels, Benoit and Lesnar Main Eventing and putting on good technical wrestling matchups, to slowing it down to 3rd gear with a guy that is a brawler as champion. say what you will about Austin, but the man was a damn good technical wrestler when it came down to it. It's not necessarily that I hate Cena, its Cena symbolizes the changes that the company is making, and with him being the top guy, he is going to draw the fire.

 

[Big Ace]

That may be true, but you have to admit that the number one champion of the number 1 brand main-eventing Wrestlemania has a significant part of a buyrate. I don't disagree that McMahon vs. Trump had an impact as well, but you have to give Cena credit as well.

This, I totally agree with. Of course, what does that say when, the one year he's not in the main event, or contending for a main-event title since Wrestlemania 17, the show breaks the record for most PPV buys for a wrestling show ever? Now, I'm not going to dispute HHH's drawing power, but it is something to ponder over.

I don't want to dispute over HHH's drawing power but I feel like it's forcing me to. Let's break this down for a minute:

Triple H vs Booker T- This wasn't even considered the Main Event. It was overshadowed by Rock vs Austin, Hogan vs McMahon, and Lesnar vs Angle. WM 19 was probably the 2nd best WrestleMania of all time and HHH ended up going over. So you can't say this main event was his fault.

Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs HBK - One of the highest-grossing WM's ever. It was a damn good match and Triple H did the job in this one. He tapped out to the Crossface, as you should know by now. It was one of the most-bought PPV's as well. HHH's drawing power was weak? I think not.

Triple H vs Batista- This whole PPV has been argued about the exact number of buys it's gotten. Some reports say that it broke a Million, some don't. Even if it didn't break a million, you can't blame it on HHH. HHH did the full job AGAIN in this one and if the whole PPV failed, why should it be blamed on the Main Eventer? Even worse, the Main Eventer who did the job. The Evolution breaking storyline was so anticipated that when it happened, it had already lost most of its steam. Not Hunter's fault. Question Steriodtista as to why this match didn't draw. Supposably.

Triple H vs John Cena- HHH does the job in this one too. How can you honestly say that the reason why this PPV didn't draw was because of HHH? Cena was boo'ed the whole match. Question John Cena. Triple H played babyface in this one. I actually wasn't surprised that this turn was coming. HHH getting cheered was inevitable. Besides, just look at the rest of the card. Does it look like a WM-type card? I think not.

So then you say that WM 23 was the highest bought WrestleMania of all time. That's just Bullshit. Not even Donald Trump could've made that PPV had that many buys. So I ask you, my fellow Cena mark, how was it HHH's fault that he didn't get boo'ed as a heel? If it was HHH's fault, then it must've been Jericho's, Christian's, Angle's, and HBK's fault too. Nobody will ever get Cena 90% over with the crowd. John Cena was the Champion. It was WWE's fault for not making HHH look good enough for Cena to beat.

You also should know that the supposed buy-rate was just an ESTIMATE. So learn your facts before you start questioning HHH's drawing power. You should question Cena's instead. Because from what I can tell, WWE's ratings have hit an all-time low ever since John Cena won the WWE Title.

 

[Slyfox696]

Just a history on Kaedon. Kaedon was a damn good poster that disagreed with everything almost anyone on here had to say. He backed up his arguements, but the 2nd someone found something that debunked something he said, he bitched and started a flame war. So when I compare you to a Kaedon, minus teh bitching, I mean it with a ton of respect. Like you've said before, it's not easy coming into a board during a flame war. So far you've done nothing but stick to your arguements and not back down, something this site has lacked for a while as far as Cena fans go. It's a welcome site to see someone go against the grain.

Well, if someone disagrees with me, I will certainly argue back. Sometimes, almost to a fault. But, I actually enjoy posting on wrestling forums, and flaming is a bannable offense, so it doesn't make sense to me to do it.

I also think it's fair to mention that I've been doing this with Cena since last August. I've seen just about every rational argument possible against Cena, and some not so rational. For example, someone was trying to say that Sabu and RVD are great wrestlers. Now, no matter what your personal feelings on the subject might be, I think we can all agree that his reasoning for them being great wrestlers might be a little flawed...see what I mean...

sabu doing chair and table spots makes him just as equal to a benoit or angle or bret hart.

and...

sabu botches because thats his style, its in his character...thats what makes him better than most of the wwe roster . thats what makes him a great wrestler.

So, I've dealt with both logical and illogical arguments against Cena. So, when it comes to this topic, I'm an experienced vet.

That all being said, I think it's a lot for the WWE to ask fans taht have grown up with the product to take it from 5th gear with guys like Austin, rock, Angle, Michaels, Benoit and Lesnar Main Eventing and putting on good technical wrestling matchups, to slowing it down to 3rd gear with a guy that is a brawler as champion. say what you will about Austin, but the man was a damn good technical wrestler when it came down to it. It's not necessarily that I hate Cena, its Cena symbolizes the changes that the company is making, and with him being the top guy, he is going to draw the fire.

And, I think that the two guys bolded are why John Cena gets so much trouble these days. Everyone expects the top guys in the company to be the next Austin or Rock (including the WWE sometimes), that they don't realize that is impossible. Those two, along with Andre and Hogan, are the four biggest draws, and four damn fine professional wrestlers, in the history of North America, and it is completely unfair to judge Cena by that criteria. And, like I've said before, so many people think that the only way to be a great wrestler is to be a great technical wrestler which simply isn't true. For example, Stan Hansen was one hell of a world class brawler, and one of the most respected outside workers in Japan. He has put on 2 ***** matches as determined by one of the most respected wrestling critics in Dave Meltzer (although, I question Meltzer sometimes).

As far as Austin goes, he was a solid technical wrestler, but during his big run in the WWF, he was almost strictly a brawler.

Guys don't have to be technical masterpieces to be respectable wrestlers.

I don't want to dispute over HHH's drawing power but I feel like it's forcing me to. Let's break this down for a minute:

Triple H vs Booker T- This wasn't even considered the Main Event. It was overshadowed by Rock vs Austin, Hogan vs McMahon, and Lesnar vs Angle. WM 19 was probably the 2nd best WrestleMania of all time and HHH ended up going over. So you can't say this main event was his fault.

Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs HBK - One of the highest-grossing WM's ever. It was a damn good match and Triple H did the job in this one. He tapped out to the Crossface, as you should know by now. It was one of the most-bought PPV's as well. HHH's drawing power was weak? I think not.

Triple H vs Batista- This whole PPV has been argued about the exact number of buys it's gotten. Some reports say that it broke a Million, some don't. Even if it didn't break a million, you can't blame it on HHH. HHH did the full job AGAIN in this one and if the whole PPV failed, why should it be blamed on the Main Eventer? Even worse, the Main Eventer who did the job. The Evolution breaking storyline was so anticipated that when it happened, it had already lost most of its steam. Not Hunter's fault. Question Steriodtista as to why this match didn't draw. Supposably.

Triple H vs John Cena- HHH does the job in this one too. How can you honestly say that the reason why this PPV didn't draw was because of HHH? Cena was boo'ed the whole match. Question John Cena. Triple H played babyface in this one. I actually wasn't surprised that this turn was coming. HHH getting cheered was inevitable. Besides, just look at the rest of the card. Does it look like a WM-type card? I think not.

Umm, I'm pretty sure I said that I wasn't questioning Triple H's drawing power. And besides, what does Triple H jobbing have to do with anything related to this discussion?

So then you say that WM 23 was the highest bought WrestleMania of all time. That's just Bullshit. Not even Donald Trump could've made that PPV had that many buys.

You must have missed my post where I cited my source, which cites the WWE as a source.

So I ask you, my fellow Cena mark, how was it HHH's fault that he didn't get boo'ed as a heel? If it was HHH's fault, then it must've been Jericho's, Christian's, Angle's, and HBK's fault too. Nobody will ever get Cena 90% over with the crowd. John Cena was the Champion. It was WWE's fault for not making HHH look good enough for Cena to beat.

First of all, Edge did a pretty damn fine job at getting Cena over with most of the crowd, as did Umaga, and as seems to be happening now with Khali.

I don't really blame Jericho for playing a poor heel, because, as has been pointed out with me, Jericho really wasn't the heel in his feud with Cena. Bischoff was really more the heel in the Cena feud and Jericho was basically the hired gun.

Don't ever recall saying Christian played a poor heel...

Angle probably did the worst heel job since RVD in the Invasion storyline. He had absolutely no concept of heel psychology. Despite being the heel and facing someone who was already having difficulty in getting cheered, he then makes sure to get all of his signature spots, as well as all of his high spots and high impact moves in. He played to the crowd like he was a face during his matches, and his heel work was pitiful. The matches themselves were solid, in my opinion, but Angle's heel work was awful.

And, HBK was never a heel in his feud against Cena.

You also should know that the supposed buy-rate was just an ESTIMATE. So learn your facts before you start questioning HHH's drawing power. You should question Cena's instead. Because from what I can tell, WWE's ratings have hit an all-time low ever since John Cena won the WWE Title.

Again, I didn't question Triple H's drawing power.

But, let me ask you this. Do you really think that the WWE is going to miss this estimate by 200,000 buys? Because unless they do, WM 23 is probably going to be the most bought wrestling PPV ever. Additionally, it is ironic that you tell me that I should learn my facts, when it's historically been accurate that early PPV buys estimates come in low, and go up from there. So, it is much more likely for the PPV buys to actually go up than to go down, at least historically.

And, the ratings for Raw, as I have said numerous times, have been higher for John Cena's reigns in both 2005 and 2006, than they were in 2004. This is true, and cannot be disputed.

If you don't believe me, here is my source. You can average them together if you don't believe me.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm

 

[X]

It's not necessarily that I hate Cena, its Cena symbolizes the changes that the company is making, and with him being the top guy, he is going to draw the fire.

That right there is my exact sentiments. I don't hate Cena as a person---hell as a person I respect him for the fact that he isn't a politicker and hasn't let his huge success go to his head and take on an inflated ego. That being said it's what he represents that I hate so much. Call me a smark but theres nothing I love more then a wrestling match that makes you just say to yourself "Holy shit, this match is awesome". I just don't ever get that with Cena, at best it's a "That was entertaining".

After the time of not exactly good in ring workers as champs like Hogan, Warrior, and Sycho Sid, in the late nineties and early 00's, for the first time ever since the heated feud of HBK and Bret Hart, the best wrestlers were getting the top billing. It continued with the main event rise of Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and even Edge to take a more recent example. Guys who had been busting their asses for years and were truly the best when it came to in ring performance were given top billing. This was huge for people like me--- it meant those dream matches would be given free reign, we're talking thirty minute classics instead of midcard affairs lasting ten minutes without much buildup.

Now with the rise of guys like Cena, Batista and Lashley I can't help but feel that the WWE is degressing. Guys with the right look, as Hogan and Warrior had, are given top billing over the guys who have already proven themselves perfectly capable of main event billing and who are wrestling gods to boot(talking of Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, etc). It just seemed there for awhile that the WWE was only going to get better and with the rise of Cena I can't help but feel that that potential future was robbed and buried forever, giving us the stale and incredibly predictable product that we see every Monday night.

Also, just a side note slyfox, it's not illegal for the WWE to have press releases saying they get a supposed buyrate or attendance number that isn't true, as long as they report the correct numbers to the IRS and whatnot. I guess if someone really wanted to they could sue the WWE for the lying, but it's pretty well documented that the WWE constantly lies about attendance numbers. If you read the live report for many a RAW or Smackdown show, it will be called sold out when infact many sections of the arena are tarped up so as to make it look like the place is sold out. Just a tidbit of info on the matter.

 

[Slyfox696]

That right there is my exact sentiments. I don't hate Cena as a person---hell as a person I respect him for the fact that he isn't a politicker and hasn't let his huge success go to his head and take on an inflated ego. That being said it's what he represents that I hate so much. Call me a smark but theres nothing I love more then a wrestling match that makes you just say to yourself "Holy shit, this match is awesome[/i]". I just don't ever get that with Cena, at best it's a "That was entertaining".

And that's the exact feeling I get from matches like Cena vs. Umaga at Royal Rumble or even Cena vs. HBK on Raw. You truly felt that John Cena gave every last bit of energy to win those matches. He couldn't win against Umaga with the FU (which was on the stairs if I remember correctly), and it took one of the most innovative moves in WWE history to finally put the big Samoan down. One could almost feel the desperation and exhaustion Cena felt in his match against HBK, even going as far as saying "He won't stay down, Mike, he won't stay down!". I mean, you talk about feeling the man's desperation, Cena hit HBK with everything he had, and STILL could never beat him. The FU didn't work. STFU didn't work. It's that dramatic struggle which does it for me.

After the time of not exactly good in ring workers as champs like Hogan, Warrior, and Sycho Sid, in the late nineties and early 00's, for the first time ever since the heated feud of HBK and Bret Hart, the best wrestlers were getting the top billing. It continued with the main event rise of Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and even Edge to take a more recent example. Guys who had been busting their asses for years and were truly the best when it came to in ring performance were given top billing. This was huge for people like me--- it meant those dream matches would be given free reign, we're talking thirty minute classics instead of midcard affairs lasting ten minutes without much buildup.

Now with the rise of guys like Cena, Batista and Lashley I can't help but feel that the WWE is degressing. Guys with the right look, as Hogan and Warrior had, are given top billing over the guys who have already proven themselves perfectly capable of main event billing and who are wrestling gods to boot(talking of Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, etc). It just seemed there for awhile that the WWE was only going to get better and with the rise of Cena I can't help but feel that that potential future was robbed and buried forever, giving us the stale and incredibly predictable product that we see every Monday night.

I'll agree that Ultimate Warrior was a piss poor wrestler, but Hulk Hogan certainly was not. The man could flat out go back in his day. He could brawl, he could wrestle technical. All of his matches were hot. He was arguably the biggest face and arguably the biggest heel in wrestling history. And, Hogan was not the same match everytime. Yes, in the early 90s, this was true, but in the mid 80s, the mid 90s, and in Japan this is not true. In fact, in Japan, most of the wins I've seen have him using a lariat to win the match, and not the atomic legdrop.

Hulk Hogan was one hell of a wrestler.

Also, just a side note slyfox, it's not illegal for the WWE to have press releases saying they get a supposed buyrate or attendance number that isn't true, as long as they report the correct numbers to the IRS and whatnot. I guess if someone really wanted to they could sue the WWE for the lying, but it's pretty well documented that the WWE constantly lies about attendance numbers. If you read the live report for many a RAW or Smackdown show, it will be called sold out when infact many sections of the arena are tarped up so as to make it look like the place is sold out. Just a tidbit of info on the matter.

The WWE has to make it public knowledge where the money is coming from. When they report on their corporate website certain numbers, and that is the only place they can be found publicly, then one has to assume it is correct. It is not just what they report to the IRS, because the WWE is a publicly traded company. It's not like the old days when it was family owned. Now, since people can buy stock in the company and such, the WWE has to make such information public to stockholders, and if I'm not mistaken, to the general public so anyone who might be interested in buying stock can investigate it.

As far as being sold out Raw and Smackdown shows, technically they are not lying. Sold out shows do not mean that the entire arena is filled. It means that all the tickets for the show have been sold. So, when they say it is sold out, despite having tarped off a bunch of areas, technically they are not lying.

 

[TheShowzOver]

Slyfox i just want to give you props, everything you say about John Cena is so true, i get the same exact feeling in his matches. He is a great story teller and turning into a good wrestler with increasingly good match after good match. People are just spoiled with the Attitude Era, they expect too much. When the next Attitude Era comes along, if it ever does. I can guarantee you John Cena will be a big part of it. They are building him up and he will help the company for years to come. Keep up the good work Sly, you can put it all into words better than i can. Chain Gang for life. Mad Respect

 

[X]

See though ShowzOver, there never will be another Attitude era. It was one of a kind, just like the wrestling boom of the mid eighties was one of a kind, it's something that will never be duplicated, ever.

Really it all just comes down to personal taste. I respect you a hell of a lot for having the guts to come on here and argue with us slyfox, thats not something alot of people would do, and if you get that feeling of Holy Shit from a Cena match, more power to you. You just have to acknowledge that many, many people do not get that feeling from Cena. Many people, like me, are just flat out bored everytime he comes out to the ring and know exactly whats going to happen. Seriously, I've predicted and been correct about every single Cena match since Wrestlemania 22(every major PPV one). That's just not right in my book.

But the story that Cena tells in the ring is old...it's stale, it's been told a thousand times before. It's the same story as Hogan, exactly the same. Umaga is Andre, Cena is Hogan, Cena shocks the world(not really) with his win at RR 2007. Same with Cena vs. Khali. He's built up as this unstoppable champion. The guy has literally lost one match since September. In my book, that's garbage. The story of almost every Cena feud is the same---against Edge it was the cocky arrogant champ versus the hungry former champ out for revenge (see: Hogan vs. Yokozuna, or Hogan vs. heel Savage). Against Umaga it was the champ up against the seemingly unstoppable monster (Hogan vs. Andre), against HBK it was the "passing of the torch" thing all over again just like Hogan vs. Warrior.

Storylines should not be recycled in such a blatant manner, IMO.

I will say one thing though, since beginning our debate slyfox you have made me think over about Cena, and perhaps I'll go back and watch some of his matches that I saw and dismissed as garbage---who knows maybe I'll like them. Don't hold your breath though, my reputation here is of the man hates Cena so much that I called for the man's hanging some pages back in this thread I believe

 

[Slyfox696]

See though ShowzOver, there never will be another Attitude era. It was one of a kind, just like the wrestling boom of the mid eighties was one of a kind, it's something that will never be duplicated, ever.

This is completely true. There will be never again an Attitude era. However, there will be another boom period, and I kind of think that is what he was referring to.

Really it all just comes down to personal taste. I respect you a hell of a lot for having the guts to come on here and argue with us slyfox, thats not something alot of people would do, and if you get that feeling of Holy Shit from a Cena match, more power to you. You just have to acknowledge that many, many people do not get that feeling from Cena. Many people, like me, are just flat out bored everytime he comes out to the ring and know exactly whats going to happen. Seriously, I've predicted and been correct about every single Cena match since Wrestlemania 22(every major PPV one). That's just not right in my book.

Well, obviously there are many people who don't like Cena matches. I just think that is more a "rebel against the machine" type mentality than it is a condemnation of his matches. I think he was put against smark favorites when he first came over on Raw and fans said "Who is this up-comer beating these "great" guys?" Guys like Jericho, Christian, Angle and HHH. If his first feuds on Raw would have been against Edge and say...Carlito, then I don't think it would ever have been a problem.

I also get the feeling that there is kind of a shortage of Cena fans around here. When you told me on YouTube that people here dont like Cena, I kind of thought you were exaggerating. Where I normally posted, there were plenty of Cena fans, many of which are VERY respected posters. It is kind of shock to me, as I figured it would kind of be that way everywhere.

See, I used to think Cena sucked and the guy couldn't wrestle. But the more I read people's complaints against the man, the more I started re-considering because so much of was said about him, really is out of his control. Then I watched his match against Edge at Summerslam and that match alone made me change my mind. The man really is a good wrestler, especially since I've never considered Edge to be that great of a normal match wrestler (phenomenal in gimmick matches, so/so in normal). But the two had fantastic chemistry in the ring, and if the WWE plays it right, Edge and Cena can be the new age version of HHH vs. Rock.

But the story that Cena tells in the ring is old...it's stale, it's been told a thousand times before. It's the same story as Hogan, exactly the same. Umaga is Andre, Cena is Hogan, Cena shocks the world(not really) with his win at RR 2007. Same with Cena vs. Khali. He's built up as this unstoppable champion. The guy has literally lost one match since September. In my book, that's garbage. The story of almost every Cena feud is the same---against Edge it was the cocky arrogant champ versus the hungry former champ out for revenge (see: Hogan vs. Yokozuna, or Hogan vs. heel Savage). Against Umaga it was the champ up against the seemingly unstoppable monster (Hogan vs. Andre), against HBK it was the "passing of the torch" thing all over again just like Hogan vs. Warrior.

But, is that not the same story that Austin generally played? I mean, McMahon was a new twist, but for the most part, it was the same story. Face character overcoming great odds in order to get the belt he hungers for. It was the same thing. You had your monsters in Taker and Kane, you had the cocky arrogant champ in Rock...it was all the same.

You're right, it is the same stories, but it's played by everyone of every generation. I don't fault Cena for that.

I will say one thing though, since beginning our debate slyfox you have made me think over about Cena, and perhaps I'll go back and watch some of his matches that I saw and dismissed as garbage---who knows maybe I'll like them. Don't hold your breath though, my reputation here is of the man hates Cena so much that I called for the man's hanging some pages back in this thread I believe

Called for the man's hanging huh? Wow, I knew I was up against it, but never appreciated just how much .

I'd recommend watching these two matches first. Umaga/Cena at Royal Rumble. Go back and watch it, not from necessarily a smark point of view, but from an entertainment/movie type of view. Watch the dramatic struggle between the Invincible monster vs. the Undefeatable champion. Watch how Umaga kicks Cena's ass all over the place, and how Cena fights back and does everything in his power to keep the big Samoan down. Watch how Cena does some of his best moves and feel his frustration when it doesn't work. Feel his emotion as he thinks "can I really beat this man again? Will he ever stay down?" And watch how, in that last moment, when he uses the rope to finally put Umaga out, the dramatic struggle between Cena and Umaga...both of them knowing that this is the critical moment of the match, and Cena giving his last bit of energy in finally being able to put the savage beast down. The drama of two guys taking each other to their absolute limits is nothing short of spectacular for me.

And, then watch ONS 2 again. Watch for those things I mentioned about Cena carrying the match. About how the crowd thought they were getting the best of Cena, but how Cena was really playing them like a fiddle. How everything he did, he made sure to rub the crowd's face in it, thus getting him even more heat. Also, notice the difference between Cena's match in the Hammerstein and Batista's match and how much more they cared about Cena's match. They hated Cena and they wanted him to lose so bad they'd kill for it. They hated Batista and didn't want him to win..but by the end of the match the crowd was just completely uncaring of the actual match and cared more about razzing Show and Batista. Notice how, in this match, Cena is willing to take bumps to bail RVD out, especially when RVD can't get Cena on the rope. Notice how Cena puts RVD in the STFU, and even when the referee counts to 5, he still doesn't break the hold, because he doesn't have to. Notice how almost all of Cena's movements in this match are slow and deliberate to further piss off the crowd. Notice how he always, before or after any big move or big moment, ALWAYS looked to the crowd and just invited them to flip him off and jeer at him.

Personally, my favorite part of the match is when the fans chant "Same Old Shit" at him, and he then goes up to the top rope and lands clubbing blow to RVD all the way down on the floor. The crowd then goes "OOHHH!"...and cheers for the move. Cracks me up.

Cena in ONS 2 was nothing short of amazing.

 

[D Showstoppa88]

You have no choice but to like john cena. But the question is.... if he were to lose the wwe title where would his chacter go. He has beatin every main event person in the wwe.

 

[jennis922]

I was extremely excited to see John Cena when he first came into the WWE. He soon developed into this annoying character and match quality began to drop. John Cena's appeal started to drop fast with actual fans who know the game and rised with children. John is quickly becoming another Hulk Hogan. NOOOO!

 

[BrooklynBuc]

My opinion, since everyone is throwing out there's...

I like and respect John Cena. As a wrestler, as a person, I think he's a cool guy. Being African-American, I could have cared less about the "wigga" gimmick, but he did it in a way that wasn't racist. As a champion (both U.S. and WWE title), his gimmick is the "tough-as-nails don't-stop-til-I'm-bleeding and half-dead", which most faces do anyway. Cena, though, isn't truly at fault for his being hated. His gimmick I think turned him off to most people that don't like rap (which I can imagine a lot of the traditional fans being against). Also, maybe Cena's move arsenal is tired, and maybe he is a much better wrestler than he looks, but look at his matches in general. The majority of his matches involve him getting the crap beat out of him and coming out ala Hogan and getting the win out of nowhere. The problem with that is it gets old when you always do it.

His feud against Edge I loved because it put two very even superstars against each other, and the way they were billed, they probably could have fought on for years. I admit, I loved the Ladder Match in Canada where Cena won it back. Cena's emotion, the way he looked so relieved to win the belt back after all the struggles he went through, for a wrestler he told a great story. Nowadays, look at his feuds. Umaga, who has already bored us to tears with this storyline with Lashley (notice how Lashley is also getting flack), with Shawn Michaels, the aging veteran looking for one last run, and The Great Khali, who wouldn't even be where he is if not for injuries and dumb-asses (Carlito and Randy Orton, I see you two). How can Cena look good when he has to play the same gimmick twice, the small, tough champion against the unstoppable monster? As for Michaels, Cena and Michaels had a subpar match because Cena didn't sell the knee injury properly, but it doesn't mean he's complete crap! He and Michaels had a great non-title match that went nearly an hour, and no one complained about that. You can't blame Cena if he's booked to win his matches. It's not like he's sucking dick to stay there. (and if he is, I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!) I still remember how much HHH was bitched out for "holding the belt too long." That's because new generation fans have short attention spans and get bored easy. Old school fans who've seen old school late 80's/early 90's matches in both WCW and WWF know great matches and how the World title should NOT be moved around like a young hooker in a retirement home. These are the fans that thought the 2 out of 3 falls match with Chris Benoit vs. MVP was boring because they weren't using chairs or doing moonsaults every minute.

I agree that One Night Stand 2 vs. Rob Van Dam was simply an awesome match. Cena decided to run with playing the heel role, and he did it so well. He knew he would get razzed, and he didn't get pissy or try to be a face anyway. Instead he adjusted and let the crowd have their fun. It's probably why the ECW fans there still gave him respect; because he knew it was part of the fun of wrestling, not like the old days of WCW telling you who to cheer and boo. Batista, on the other hand, is a punk and a whiner who doesn't deserve another title run due to the disrespect he gives the fans and his peers.

Yes, the WWE needs a change. Yes, ECW is a damn mess and complete crap now. Yes, they need much better booking than the same PPV matches two PPVs in a row, but I will not blame John Cena for bad booking. And I certainly won't blame him for staying champion. Who else do you want as champ? Johnny Nitro? Eugene? Umaga? Randy Orton?

 

[Ja_204]

I have mixed feelings about Cena. He has few moves, but i like him on the mike. But I am getting sick of him! I hope that he loses the belt soon and put it on somebody else. NO, not HHH, because they would do the same stupid story line they did a few years ago where he would hold it for a long time. What they need is somebody else to get it and then have an enemy for the person

 

[Come Back Rock]

i agree with Showstopp88

 

[michiganj24]

Assuming that the Cena Kahli feud is mercifully over after ONS(and for once I think the majority of the baords even the Cena haters want him to win), Cena will be looking for a new long term fued. It was supposed to be HBK but the injury likley puts the kibosh on that. Although Orton could be a short tem option his planned return fued with HHH that will have extar fire with him taking out Shawn wont allow it.
So the way I see it they have 2 options for a prolonged title fued( well short of elevating some joke into the picture Chris masters anyone I though not)

Benoit v Cena The rumor for months is that he was raw bound and even though I thought he would be good shoring up a even weaker ECW brand he could help the currently short handed RAW. He can give Cena some good matches as eveidnced by when they collieded back when Cena was still medcard material on Smackdown. Cena can wrestle WWE just dosent want him to as that is not his image.

Flair v Cena. If this is Flairs last year then WWE has said they want to give him a good last year and even oif they dont give him one last title reign and decent fued for that belt would be a nice gesture as well. And seriously when was the alst time a Flair fued wasnt good.

So when it coems down to hear who would you like to see of the 2 and why?

 

[Doctor Demise]

John Cena is ok as a rapper... his album is quite good...

In the ring, he's improving, take note IMPROVING.

He's needs to work more on that, but i believe cena has made quite an impact, plus you can see his determination and his dedication to the company. He has mic skills as well...

 

[TheShowzOver]

I'd like to see a Cena/Benoit feud, i think Benoit deserves to be in the main event picture and him and Cena can put on some really good matches. Only thing though i think them having Benoit tap out to Cena already would kind of tarnish the feud. I'm a huge Cena fan but even i think that it was a mistake having Benoit tap to Cena. Benoit is a better wrestler than Cena, but when Cena is really pushed he shows how good he can be too. Like with his matches against Edge and Michaels. I'd love to see this feud as it would make for some really good matches