[Official] Dragon Ball Z Thread

[lenguy]

I terms of the qualities of the main characters, there growth dosent always have to be measured in just power transformations but in actual character development. Vegeta I say has the most character arch throughout the series. He goes from a cold hearted villain to gradually becoming more of a good guy to going back to his evil roots to finally going full circle to becoming a good guy. Gohan to has a lot of growth, he goes from a very timid and gentle person to embracing his powers and become a well skilled warrior to the kind of person who sees violence as an improper excuse for answers to becoming a fine and excellent warrior at the end of the buu saga. Even Trunks has a bit of growth in the few sagas he appears in.

The argument for main character is fruitless as Goku is the main character of the entire series. One should know this by now, not to take away from Characters like gohan and Vegeta, they are just as important but they are not the main characters. Throughout the entire series, Goku is the main focus around everything. Gohan and Vegeta play their parts, but every saga essentially revolves around Goku in some manner, from Vegeta, to Freiza, to Cell and to Buu. The only real sensible case you make make for Gohan is his importance in the Cell Games. Not to take anything away from their characters, there just as important but they are sub-main characters, Goku is and always was the main protagonist in the series.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Ugh, so many things I hate about the Buu saga: Piccolo being pretty much delegated to a brain, Network Meddling causing Toriyama to abandon his original plan of Gohan being the BDH and killing Buu, Dabura not getting some badass redemption fight other than throwing a spear, people thinking Kid Buu was stronger then Super Buu3/Buuhan (That's great, he was the most dangerous, so would a cripple with a bomb strapped to him), no one becoming a super fucking badass to the degree of the climaxes of Frieza and Cell (Suddenly, huge new transformation and SOMEONE'S FUCKING RIPSHIT) and... well, Gotenks. "Ey yo, let's troll Buu."

I mean, it was a fine saga and all, but you can tell Toriyama just didn't give a shit anymore

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

I hated all the kids from the Buu Saga. With that said, I also hated Gotenks.

 

[Барбоса]

And of course, Goku advances the most out of anyone. I don't think that I have to list his growth.

I agreed with everything you said aside from this.

I personally would never argue that anyone other than Goku is the main character of DBZ as first and foremost it was a cartoon show aimed more at children and early teens who would not be that interested in the nuances of character development but if you were to look at the series from a more intricate rather than general outlook, I think it is easy to come out with a different perception.

Yes, Goku is consistently one of if not the strongest fighter and the hero of the piece who stands astride the series and indeed the Dragonball Universe as a whole. However, out of all of the main characters he is easily the one that demonstrates the least character growth. Yes, he advances from extraordinary human to an low class alien to strongest being in the galaxy but that is essentially it. By the end of DBZ, he is basically the same character he was at the beginning - the easy going almost oblivious to danger guy who loves competition but in the end is out to protect his friends and family.

I think that that is why it is possible to suggest that while Goku is the main character, the story of DBZ can be seen as the story of someone like Gohan or Vegeta as they have a far wider developmental arc than Goku. Indeed, I would say that it is Vegeta who has by far the biggest and best development arc throughout all of DBZ and is therefore by far the most interesting character of the series.

It is something similar to how the Star Wars saga was not the story of Obi Wan Kenobi or Luke Skywalker; it was the story of Anakin Skywalker told through the eyes of C3P0 and R2D2. It is the tragic and developed character that dominates.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

You guys are proving that I won the debate with Awesome...WIN!

 

[Барбоса]

You guys are proving that I won the debate with Awesome...WIN!

Depends what the title of the debate was...

Main character = Goku

Main story arc =/= Goku

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

It was should the series have ended at Cell or Buu.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If the series had have ended with Cell, then Gohan would've been the main character of the series by far.

However, since it ended with Buu and the story shifted back to Goku, he remains the main character of the DBZ story.

 

[lenguy]

Ugh, so many things I hate about the Buu saga: Piccolo being pretty much delegated to a brain, Network Meddling causing Toriyama to abandon his original plan of Gohan being the BDH and killing Buu, Dabura not getting some badass redemption fight other than throwing a spear, people thinking Kid Buu was stronger then Super Buu3/Buuhan (That's great, he was the most dangerous, so would a cripple with a bomb strapped to him), no one becoming a super fucking badass to the degree of the climaxes of Frieza and Cell (Suddenly, huge new transformation and SOMEONE'S FUCKING RIPSHIT) and... well, Gotenks. "Ey yo, let's troll Buu."

I mean, it was a fine saga and all, but you can tell Toriyama just didn't give a shit anymore

Why does everybody have such a hard on for Gohan? He was not suited for the role as the main Character, Toriyama saw this and removed him from that role. I don't see how it would even be possible. Gohan lacks that hero trait that goku possess. Hes always second guessing himself, he doesn't desire to have epic battles like his father. There was even a point towars the end of the cell games that Gohan had almost damn near given up and was going to let Cell win, who knows what would of happened if Goku had not intervened and persuaded him other wise. Goku had possessed every characteristic and trait that is required in a good hero from day one, Gohan did not.

Plus to say Toriyama didn't give a shit anymore is ridiculous, he wasn't very satisfied with the ending to the Cell Saga and also wasn't satisfied with Gohans new role so the focus was swayed back to Goku once again. He then set out to create the ultimate villain in all aspects, one that was not only pure evil but damn near indestructible as well. Buu's threat was apparent when he demolished all of the Z fighters, even goku was made inferior at some points in the saga. He wanted to give that feeling of absolute hopelessness along with a sense of desperateness. Buu single handily dispatched of all the Z fighters, eliminated the entire Earth population and destroyed the planet as well. What makes it better is that aside from the Humans like Tein and Yamacha and Krillin, every Character got to shine. Gohan,Goten and Trunks, Vegeta and Goku but I'll admit maybe piccolo could of been used better.

Your argument could be made but I felt it was a good saga and a fitting end to the DBZ story

 

[Uncle Sam]

If the Buu saga ended with Vegeta's sacrifice, it'd be considered fuck awesome. End of.

 

[Барбоса]

If the Buu saga ended with Vegeta's sacrifice, it'd be considered fuck awesome. End of.

If the Buu Saga had ended with Vegeta killing Buu it would be considered fucking awesome

 

[SSJPhenom]

I agree with everything that you said lenguy except for that Gohan was always second guessing himself.

Sure he was as a child, but during the Buu Saga, when he became Ultimate Gohan, he gained the confidence and attitude needed to be the hero. Even Piccolo noticed it when he first showed up.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If the Buu saga ended with Vegeta's sacrifice, it'd be considered fuck awesome. End of.

That would have been the shit, however, like always in DBZ, the Prince of all Saiyans get's shafted again.

 

[lenguy]

I agree with everything that you said lenguy except for that Gohan was always second guessing himself.

Sure he was as a child, but during the Buu Saga, when he became Ultimate Gohan, he gained the confidence and attitude needed to be the hero. Even Piccolo noticed it when he first showed up.

There was a point when Cell and Gohan were engaged in the Kamehameha battle and Gohan was injured and he thought that he didn't have enough power to defeat cell and was beating himself up and blaming himself for Gokus death. Goku came along an convinced that it did have the power and to let it all out. Then just before Goku and Majin Vegeta were about to engage in their battle and Gohan and Supreme Kid were about to face babidi. Goku told Gohan to fight like he did against cell but Gohan said he didn't remember. It wasn't as bad as when he was a child I'll agree but he slowly grew out of it and became less apparent as the series progress and Gohans character developed more.

There is another aspect in Gohans life that seems to challenge him and the role of Hero of Earth, but that's another conversation for another time.

 

[SSJPhenom]

But you have to admit that by the end of the Buu Saga, Gohan could have been the new hero of Earth.

I want to start a conversation about the only thing that I never quite understood from DBZ and that's the level of Ultra Super Saiyan or SSJ 1.5. Was there no limit to how strong one could get as SSJ 1.5? Remember, Trunks kept pushing and pushing and getting stronger and stronger. He even got to the point to where Cell told him that he had surpassed him in the area of brute strength, but not speed. So was Trunks as powerful as Gohan SSJ2 just not as fast? Help me!

 

[Барбоса]

The true power of USSJ is a difficult one to gauge and many of the arguments involved can be rather difficult to follow.

It is inferred that Trunks might have the power to destroy Cell but would not be able to catch him, something that Vegeta and Goku's shunning of USSJ would seem to suggest. Their thinking being that Cell would never initiate a direct power encounter if he might be over powered and destroyed: they would of course be proven wrong considering that the final death of Cell had nothing to do with speed.

So it could be argued that Super Perfect Cell killed Trunks because he was a real threat (much like Freiza did with Dende) as he had the power to destroy him with a direct hit, something that even in their Ascended SSJ form, Vegeta and Goku were only able to do.

However, Cell himself seems to have consistently underestimated his own powers so his claim that USSJ Trunks might have been able to defeat him should be taken with a pinch of salt. Furthermore, Cell only initiates the Kamehameha Power Struggle when Gohan was injured and after he has surpassed what he himself thought was his full potential, something that he did not know when he claimed that Trunks might be more powerful than him.

Of course, the potential for USSJ Trunks having the power to destroy Cell does not prove that he was as powerful as SSJ2 Gohan, who is suggested to be far superior to even Super Perfect Cell.

Personally, I would say that USSJ was not as strong as SSJ2 if only because of natural progression. Could USSJ Trunks up his power level higher and higher? I do not see why not but if he was too slow to hit anyone either with punches or ki blasts then what use would it be beyond destroying the planet?

 

[Ultra Awesome]

You guys are proving that I won the debate with Awesome...WIN!

No. I still won.

 

[lenguy]

I'm not really sure about U.S.S.J really. In terms of strength in that particular level really depends on how far you push yourself can vary. In Trunks case when he was at his max I'm pretty sure his power was below gohan at S.S.J 2. Might have even been a tad below Goku at full power during his fight with Cell.

If Trunks had even possessed the speed to catch Cell, I doubt he still would of been able to beat him. It might of been even for a while but the strain on Trunks body would eventually take its toll and he would start to use more power just powering up and moving around. Goku mentioned that that transformation consumes power that would be more vital and useful towards the actually fight itself, its a waste of precious energy. This is why Goku and Gohan decided to try and master the regular Super Saiyan state instead.

 

[SSJPhenom]

It is inferred that Trunks might have the power to destroy Cell but would not be able to catch him, something that Vegeta and Goku's shunning of USSJ would seem to suggest. Their thinking being that Cell would never initiate a direct power encounter if he might be over powered and destroyed: they would of course be proven wrong considering that the final death of Cell had nothing to do with speed.

And of course, you can't forget that even before Cell attacked Gohan with the final Kamehameha, he tried it before but Gohan used just enough strength to injure him.

So it could be argued that Super Perfect Cell killed Trunks because he was a real threat (much like Freiza did with Dende) as he had the power to destroy him with a direct hit, something that even in their Ascended SSJ form, Vegeta and Goku were only able to do.

Agreed.

However, Cell himself seems to have consistently underestimated his own powers so his claim that USSJ Trunks might have been able to defeat him should be taken with a pinch of salt. Furthermore, Cell only initiates the Kamehameha Power Struggle when Gohan was injured and after he has surpassed what he himself thought was his full potential, something that he did not know when he claimed that Trunks might be more powerful than him.

Let's dispense with the theories of Cell not knowing how strong he actually was. I think it is safe to assume that Cell knew exactly how much power he had. Not once in the series does a fighter not know their own limits. Sure, they sometimes surpass their limits with transformations and such, but Cell was in his final form and new exactly, at that time, what his limits were. Remember when he fought SSJ2 Gohan, he said, "For I have yet to show you young warrior what I am truly capable of." How would he know what he was truly capable of if he didn't know his limits? So I think when Cell said that Trunks had surpassed him in strength, he wasn't wrong. Also, we don't know how strong Trunks actually was. We're not sure if that was his max or not. He could have kept going for all we know.

Of course, the potential for USSJ Trunks having the power to destroy Cell does not prove that he was as powerful as SSJ2 Gohan, who is suggested to be far superior to even Super Perfect Cell.

I agree with this.

Personally, I would say that USSJ was not as strong as SSJ2 if only because of natural progression. Could USSJ Trunks up his power level higher and higher? I do not see why not but if he was too slow to hit anyone either with punches or ki blasts then what use would it be beyond destroying the planet?

He may have coaxed Cell into testing his strength in a power struggle. Remember, Cell was part Vegeta and Frieza. Trunks could've said, "Why don't we see who is stronger? Your best energy blast against mine." Cell would probably have done that.

 

[Барбоса]

Let's dispense with the theories of Cell not knowing how strong he actually was. I think it is safe to assume that Cell knew exactly how much power he had. Not once in the series does a fighter not know their own limits. Sure, they sometimes surpass their limits with transformations and such, but Cell was in his final form and new exactly, at that time, what his limits were. Remember when he fought SSJ2 Gohan, he said, "For I have yet to show you young warrior what I am truly capable of." How would he know what he was truly capable of if he didn't know his limits? So I think when Cell said that Trunks had surpassed him in strength, he wasn't wrong. Also, we don't know how strong Trunks actually was. We're not sure if that was his max or not. He could have kept going for all we know.

But the only gauge we have for the power level of USSJ is when it is used in battle and who is it used against and if Cell does not know how strong he truly is then his suggestion that USSJ Trunks had surpassed him, the one real piece of evidence for its power, is rendered uncertain at best. Furthermore, while the suggestion that Super Perfect Cell killed Trunks is because he was a real threat is somewhat attractive, it is pure speculation on my part. A direct hit from a USSJ Trunks could easily only have done similar damage to the direct hits that Vegeta and Goku inflicted on Cell.

He may have coaxed Cell into testing his strength in a power struggle. Remember, Cell was part Vegeta and Frieza. Trunks could've said, "Why don't we see who is stronger? Your best energy blast against mine." Cell would probably have done that.

But Cell did do something similar with Vegeta and ended up showing fear and slightly dodging a blast that he said he would take head on. This, and the fear he showed in the face of Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha, would suggest that Cell really did not know his true potential on either of those occasions. He certainly did not fulfil his top power against SSJ2 Gohan even when his life was in danger and he seemed surprised not only by his survival of his own self-destruction but also of the Saiyan infused power boost he got.

As you say, it was not until Cell had succumbed to his Freiza/Vegeta induced arrogant pride that he would face the might of SSJ2 Gohan head on and even then only when Gohan was injured. And even with that, SSJ2 Gohan was able to obliterate Cell when he was in a stronger state than that which USSJ Trunks, ASSJ Vegeta and ASSJ Goku faced with relative ease.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I guess all that we have on this argument is speculation and theories. It's an interesting case to say the least.

Another thing that I wonder about is the strength of Ultimate/Mystic Gohan. He was obviously stronger than Super Buu(not Buutenks). So could he have taken out Kid Buu a lot easier than Goku could have? Also, was SSJ3 Gotenks stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Remember, Goku said on a number of occasions that Super Buu was stronger than him, but Gotenks was even with Super Buu.

Anyone want to take a stab at this one?

 

[lenguy]

I guess all that we have on this argument is speculation and theories. It's an interesting case to say the least.

Another thing that I wonder about is the strength of Ultimate/Mystic Gohan. He was obviously stronger than Super Buu(not Buutenks). So could he have taken out Kid Buu a lot easier than Goku could have? Also, was SSJ3 Gotenks stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Remember, Goku said on a number of occasions that Super Buu was stronger than him, but Gotenks was even with Super Buu.

Anyone want to take a stab at this one?

I think its arguably clear that by the end of the Buu Saga that Mystic Gohan was the strongest non-fused character easily, I often wonder why Goku and Vegeta never bothered to recruit Gohan and Gotenks during their fight with Kid Buu, I think they could of easily made a difference had they all worked together.

Gotenks might have been stronger than Goku at the time. But I would argue that they are probably almost even. In Goku's case if he was still dead then yes he would be stronger but once he regained his life his Super Saiyan 3 would become a bit weaker since his living body could not handle the strain of all that power. In otherworld there was hardly any limit to what Goku could of pushed himself to do.

In Wrath of the Dragon in particular I noticed that Hirudegarn was quickly able to dispatch of Gotenks at Super Saiyan 3 while Goku at the same level proved to be a much tougher challenge. So I think that this might prove that over time Goku had gotten a bit tougher since his fight with Buu, Remember a Saiyans power increases after every fight. In a fight I think Goku would win not only because of the fusion constrains for Gotenks but also because Goku has a higher sense of battle instincts and more fighting experience.

Its also interesting to point out that Hirudegarn easily deposed of everyone including Gohan without much effort, but who really knows though. I would say Gohan by the end of the Buu Saga is the strongest but then there are those kind of events that make you question.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I don't count the Feature Films as apart of the main storyline of the series. The only one that could possibly count is the Dead Zone.

So, not counting the Feature Films, was Gotenks stronger than Goku during the Buu Saga?

 

[lenguy]

Possibly, its debatable really. As I've said, Goku has more of a fighting sense and battle instincts. In strength I'm not sure, I would say that by the end of the saga it would of been Goku who was stronger but then again an argument could be made that they are almost even in power. But in my personal opinion I think Goku was the stronger one in the end.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

I don't understand some of the things you guys are saying. Most likely it's because I only skimmed through the posts; but either way, I always thought and believed that:

1) Goku SS3 is the strongest in the series. No questions asked.

2) Kid Buu is stronger than any other Buu.

3) Gotenks SS3 was strong; but not as strong as SS3 Goku.

4) Super Buu was stronger than Gotenks SS3

.....