This theory you're trying to present about most people hating Russo because they can't differentiate between his on-screen character and his booking/writing abilities is absolutely asinine, and it takes about 5 seconds to debunk it. Is Vince Russo an on-screen character in TNA today? No. Do people criticize his booking today? Yes. There you go, your entire theory has been debunked, happy? Was that the adult conversation you were looking for? You'd have to literally be mentally ******ed not to be able to differentiate between Russo the character and Russo the booker. But here you are, making up more wild excuses to try and justify the insane amount of hate Russo has gotten over the years. Russo gets hate because of his booking, not his character. Your theory holds no basis in reality whatsoever.
IMPACT Wrestling LD for 06.16.11
- Thread starter It's Damn Real!
- Start date
This theory you're trying to present about most people hating Russo because they can't differentiate between his on-screen character and his booking/writing abilities is absolutely asinine, and it takes about 5 seconds to debunk it. Is Vince Russo an on-screen character in TNA today? No. Do people criticize his booking today? Yes. There you go, your entire theory has been debunked, happy? Was that the adult conversation you were looking for? You'd have to literally be mentally ******ed not to be able to differentiate between Russo the character and Russo the booker. But here you are, making up more wild excuses to try and justify the insane amount of hate Russo has gotten over the years. Russo gets hate because of his booking, not his character. Your theory holds no basis in reality whatsoever.
Makes perfect sense to me. Maybe you should try actually having a discussion instead of countering every single post SD makes with 'you're a stupid, blind TNA mark'.
People hate Vince Russo because he was an on screen character, and as such served as a convenient target for people to direct all of their randomized bile regarding the product on to. The exact same thing happened to Stephanie McMahon when she appeared on screen and was believed to be heading up creative. Nobody hates Brian Gewirtz or Ed Koskey because nobody knows who they are. Being a recognizable face (especially a heel, (especially especially a heel who draws on real life issues)) on television whilst simultaneously booking a successful television show is going to draw bile from the internet community simply becasue booking a wrestling show, or at least, booking a successful wrestling show, is one of the most thankless jobs in the industry.
I've been on this forum for longer than I care to remember at this point, and I don't think I have once seen a thread talking about the success of the bookers or writers. If something is good then people lay the credit on the wrestlers, and if something is bad (especially if it as involving a wrestler people like) then creative gets blamed.
If Brian Kendrick of Desmond Wolfe debut with a new and interesting gimmick and cut a bunch of highly entertaining promos then it is taken as absolute proof that Brain Kendrick and Desmond Wolfe are tremendous talents. Conversely, if Black Reign or Robbie E get their hands on a microphone and stink the joint up it usually takes about five minutes for somebody to be blaming creative.
If the matches on TV aren't very good or aren't long enough the the booking staff get the blame, but if the show is booked to involve some really good matches like a best of 5 series between to MCMG and Beer Money or a 20 minute main event between Kurt Angle and AJ styles then the closest thing whoever booked the match gets to credit is people saying "thank god they didn't ruin it".
For some reason this trend completely abates and in cases even reverses once you get down to a indy level. People who book network television swiftly become the wrestling incarnation of the devil, but for some reason if you book unsuccessfully at a lower level you can still achieve deistic status online. Fuck, even I like Gabe Sapolsky, although I can say with absolute confidence that it has nothing to do with his booking philosophy.
Personally I'm not going to shit on somebody who is transparently good at their job, as as has been shown countless times before, Russo does his job very well, no matter what the dirt sheet community thinks. He's certainly not driven fans away from his show in the past five years, which is more than can be said for anybody else operating at his level.
Joe's Gonna Kill You
The Hunt is On
These LDs never fail to entertain me.
Thanks Guys
Thanks Guys
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Vince Russo is good at his job. Now I've heard everything.
At no point in my post did I once insult SD. Not once.
Yes being a recognizable face on TV while simultaneously being the booker is going to lead to more people criticizing you because they know who you are, you're right there. That's not what SD said though, is it? He said that most people were unable to differentiate between the character and the booker Vince Russo. Which is ridiculous, especially since he hasn't been an on screen character in a long time now while still booking, and people still hate on him, regardless of any character he plays. People were hating on Russo back in the Attitude era, before he ever even became an on-screen character, trust me. Saying that most wrestling fans who are intelligent enough to know what a booker even is can't differentiate between Russo the crazy on-screen maniac hugging Scott Steiner and hitting people with chairs and the angles and storylines that have been Vince Russo's work over the years in this business is downright insulting honestly.
Then you definitely have not invested a reasonable amount of time actually searching for discussions on the successes of various bookers or writers. There are threads praising the booking of Paul Heyman, Vince Russo, Gabe Sapolsky and many other bookers started very frequently. Especially in Heyman's case.
Except Kendrick and Wolfe both weren't "given a new and interesting gimmick" at all, they were playing pretty much the same gimmick they've always had. Nigel as the cocky, arrogant British heel and Kendrick had been working his crazy stoner guru gimmick for quite some time before coming to TNA.
But I get the point you're trying to make and actually agree with you that creative members sometimes do not get the credit they deserve.
I disagree, people seem pretty quick to praise TNA for any positive things they do booking-wise like booking that Beer Money-MCMG feud. People raved about that feud and gave credit where it was due. Because people are so used to not liking TNA's booking decisions in fact when they DO like their decisions, they will usually rave about it. Take for example Aries, Rave and Kash showing up on Impact this week. Everyone loved it and raved about it and said "Good job TNA". People are willing to give credit where credit is due more often than not.
I don't disagree. I'm a big Sapolsky fan as well and thought his ROH run was one of the best booking runs of the last decade. Just because he wasn't on network television though that doesn't mean he didn't book a more cohesive, interesting, engaging and logical product than some of his peers like Russo.
That depends on what you think "his job" is though Gelgarin. Yes it's his job to book/write a weekly wrestling show that never has any breaks, and it's a tough one. But it's how he books that turns people off of him. I don't consider booking angles like the Hogan/Abyss one last year or Samoa Joe being kidnapped and then never having that explained to be "doing his job very well". I'm sure he's putting forth effort, but I think his creative output for the most part sucks, and I'm entitled to having that opinion just as much as you are yours. I see no huge injustices that you're complaining about right now honestly.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I know who Russo is, thanks to his on screen character. However, kayfabe heat isn't permanent. People hate Vince Russo, with a passion, and I doubt the majority of that hatred comes from his temporary career as an on screen talent in WCW.
Not even a little bit?
That's insulting? But telling somebody that their ideas would only make sense to the mentally disabled isn't?
Semantics rape.
I'll concede Hayman and Sapolsky; but they both fit into the category of 'deified because they work at a lower level' (ECW being lower level is slightly rocky territory, but I think when held in comparison to the wrestling industry at the time I'll get away with it). You almost never see praise for Russo that isn't coming from somebody trying to troll people. The same goes for Vince and Stephanie. The absolutely see far more threads criticizing them than you do offering credit.
Good oh.
Oh, and is that what "Spanky" was. I remember seeing people constantly demanding that Brian Kendrick becomes "Spanky" again back in the day. I always assumed that it was just some weird sex thing.
I didn't watch it, but it probably was more cohesive and logical. Anybody operating at an indy level has things infinitely easier in that regard though. There is a much lighter focus on storyline, and programs are given much longer to develop. A feud between CM Punk and Raven can last for twelve months without the person writing the show really having to do very much. In contrast in the world of weekly episodic television the booker has to be advancing and juggling a dozen different story threads every single week. As such plot holes happen. Then happen in every televised wrestling broadcast, and they also happen in every soap opera (and soap operas have a much easier time of it). They are in no way exclusive to Vince Russo.
Plot holes in TNA are no more prevalent than they are in WWE. Joe got randomly kidnapped and nobody mentioned it. Then again, Edge and Christian used to be related by blood, and nobody brought that up either. At the moment Russo is no worse than anybody else.
Where he may have been worse is WCW, but I'm absolutely not going to blame him too much for that. We've heard in no end of interviews what a nightmare than show was backstage. Loads of the top guys were constantly refusing to job or demanding angles be rewritten. I've heard time and tie again that Nitro was frequently being rewritten as it went on the air. NOBODY could book a cohesive program under those circumstances, and those circumstances had nothing to do with Russo. You might be able to blame Bischoff or Hogan for it, but Vince Russo really wasn't at fault.
I consider his job to be to book TNA in a way that appeals to TNA's audience. Since TNA's audience has repeatedly failed to go anywhere no matter how many times Samoa Joe has mysteriously vanished I can only assume that they are being satisfied by the product. Booking a product that you don't like doesn't make a person bad at their job, just as booking a product that I happen to enjoy doesn't make a person good.
However; booking a weekly product which has retained it's entire audience for years during a period where the wrestling industry is in decline, does make a person good at their job. And Vince Russo has been doing that under less than optimal circumstances.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
I thought you were purposely changing the point but maybe you really do not get what I am saying. I am saying that the relative quality of Russo is greatly exaggerated towards the negative by many. That isn't saying he could not still be perceived as bad, just that in the majority of the cases he isn't as bad as people claim. I am saying the root of this issue goes back to WCW and that his character on TV had an influence on the matter. How much of an influence is up for a debate but calling me stupid isn't a debate. This is an influence that pretty obviously people still care about because you rarely see a Russo discussion without predominately referencing WCW more than TNA.
It is silly in general to place everything on Russo. What is the constant excuse for ignoring the obvious good he contributed in WWF? It was a long time ago and he wasn't responsible for everything. Well, call me crazy but WCW was a long time ago too and he wasn't responsible for everything there either. Just like he isn't responsible for everything in TNA. How do you know Russo had anything to do with Joe getting kidnapped? You do not. You just attribute it to him because as Gelgarin explained people need someone to lash out at emotionally over such issues. Russo made himself such a target back in WCW. When they went out of business that was a tough time for a lot of fans emotionally, so of course we need to find someone to blame. Thus, the legend of Russo we now know was born, and it never stopped growing, regardless of if the actions attributed to him were really his doing or not.
Another reason some old school fans hate Russo is that he became the poster boy for the end of the old way and the beginning of the new way. Once again just by being on tv and talking about such things he got the majority of the blame for something that was basically out of his control. The change had to happen but it was going to be unpopular. Some people think the old school way is the ROH/indy way. While I understand how some people might think that I disagree but that is another topic. The problem is that anybody that loves that type of style needs someone to lash out at when they do not get what they want. Queue up Russo. The guy is a scapegoat for everything and it is rarely the result of rational thought. Hence, it is usually exaggerated or downright false.
It is silly in general to place everything on Russo. What is the constant excuse for ignoring the obvious good he contributed in WWF? It was a long time ago and he wasn't responsible for everything. Well, call me crazy but WCW was a long time ago too and he wasn't responsible for everything there either. Just like he isn't responsible for everything in TNA. How do you know Russo had anything to do with Joe getting kidnapped? You do not. You just attribute it to him because as Gelgarin explained people need someone to lash out at emotionally over such issues. Russo made himself such a target back in WCW. When they went out of business that was a tough time for a lot of fans emotionally, so of course we need to find someone to blame. Thus, the legend of Russo we now know was born, and it never stopped growing, regardless of if the actions attributed to him were really his doing or not.
Another reason some old school fans hate Russo is that he became the poster boy for the end of the old way and the beginning of the new way. Once again just by being on tv and talking about such things he got the majority of the blame for something that was basically out of his control. The change had to happen but it was going to be unpopular. Some people think the old school way is the ROH/indy way. While I understand how some people might think that I disagree but that is another topic. The problem is that anybody that loves that type of style needs someone to lash out at when they do not get what they want. Queue up Russo. The guy is a scapegoat for everything and it is rarely the result of rational thought. Hence, it is usually exaggerated or downright false.
You know who never seems to get the heat he deserves? Dutch Mantel. The jerk messed up Abyss and AJ Style as well as sponsor Russos love for gimmicks, but he also added his own stupider ones.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I remember Russo far more for his shitty booking than I do his on screen role. That, I know.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Wasn't that the goal of his on screen character though? Make you hate him for that "shitty" style he used to ruin the "sanctity" of prowrestling.
I do not know how people think they know so much about what Russo supposedly did. WCW creative had so many ridiculous factors that had nothing to do with Russo. In TNA it is fairly common knowledge that he is blamed for things he had nothing to do with. Why do you think people respond so emotionally to the guy if I am wrong?
I do not know how people think they know so much about what Russo supposedly did. WCW creative had so many ridiculous factors that had nothing to do with Russo. In TNA it is fairly common knowledge that he is blamed for things he had nothing to do with. Why do you think people respond so emotionally to the guy if I am wrong?
Tequila Dave
Flame on.
I'm wondering the same thing
Tequila Dave
Flame on.
I agree, this is the first time I've watched Impact in ages.
I bet Hardy couldn't wait for this segment to be over. I'm guessing he gets the leftover food.
I bet Hardy couldn't wait for this segment to be over. I'm guessing he gets the leftover food.
Joe's Gonna Kill You
The Hunt is On
I think that this is just a 1 week thing
Sudden announcement by Spike. hope it stays.
vampireblade
Simply Amazing
impact replay sweet
vampireblade
Simply Amazing
knockouts twice a week hell yea
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
It wouldn't surprise me if it was more than a one week thing where sooner than later one of the nights morphed into another program.
UnBEARaBULLfan
Getting Noticed By Management
Would be nice if they would start a second show and be able to feature more of their talent.
