Impact Wrestling LD for 05.19.11
- Thread starter It's Damn Real!
- Start date
Half my life? TNA hasn't even existed for half of my life.
My opinion on their booking and creative ideas is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the people in charge of TNA feel the need to make changes to their product. SD said they have no compelling reason to, and yet very clearly they do, since they've made several major changes to the product over the last week and have plans to continue to do so. So, as usual, SD is wrong.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
When?
X-division received more focus on that show than it has in months. If you want to preach patience in place of overreacting on christian/orton I do not know how you can so blatantly miss that point here.
TIME DOES NOT A GOOD WRESTLING MATCH MAKE.
Aren't you bitching about them obviously not feeling differently? You basically seem to be complaining a lot about misinterpreting the message that you claim you actually didn't misinterpret. Makes a ton of sense ...
It is almost like Immortal is fighting back against those that would benefit from the "changes." But that would require getting the point for once. Not your strong suit when it comes to TNA.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
I think it is pretty clear I am talking about from a booking and creative standpoint X. You are putting out piss poor meaningless comments recently. They changed the set and name!??!?!!? I had no idea ...
There are plenty of compelling reasons to change the way they market and present the product but not to make a huge difference in the product itself in my opinion. Fine tuning certainly but not a full scale creative overhaul with an entirely new direction.
There are plenty of compelling reasons to change the way they market and present the product but not to make a huge difference in the product itself in my opinion. Fine tuning certainly but not a full scale creative overhaul with an entirely new direction.
Really; the general line of the internet seems to be that almost no changes have been made beyond decoration. I haven't spotted much of relevance myself, although I'm pretty glad about it. There certainly have not been any huge changes, and thus far there is little evidence that there are going to be.
I'm not generally in the business of defending Shattered Dreams, but you're doing your little thing where you deliberately misquote people again (and after I gave you that lovely patronizing speech about how quotation marks are supposed to work). In this case deleting the word "huge" from what he actually said. Dreams is correct, there has been no compelling reason advanced by anyone at any point why TNA need to make huge changes.
The product is doing very well, the company is expanding, they have a very positive relationship with Spike TV and are the most consistent ratings draw on the network. I think from a sober and well grounded perspective that's pretty much what a television show should be hoping for.
I'm not generally in the business of defending Shattered Dreams, but you're doing your little thing where you deliberately misquote people again (and after I gave you that lovely patronizing speech about how quotation marks are supposed to work). In this case deleting the word "huge" from what he actually said. Dreams is correct, there has been no compelling reason advanced by anyone at any point why TNA need to make huge changes.
The product is doing very well, the company is expanding, they have a very positive relationship with Spike TV and are the most consistent ratings draw on the network. I think from a sober and well grounded perspective that's pretty much what a television show should be hoping for.
So re-branding your entire television show and company isn't changing your creative product?
They changed the name of their television show and have been injecting constant video packages to emphasize their re-branding. That's very clearly a major change to their product. They're considering changing the name of the entire company for goodness sake.
Changing the name of your television show isn't a major change? They're clearly rebranding their company. Clearly the people in charge DO feel the need to change their product, or they wouldn't be making these changes Gelgarin.
I didn't actually quote him if you read my post, I was simply repeating what he said from memory after having read his post a few moments earlier. My apologies for forgetting the word "huge". Renaming your television show is a HUGE change, and I don't know how you can argue differently. Rebranding your company is a HUGE change. They're doing it.
They have virtually the same TV ratings and PPV buys that they've had for several years now. They are not making significant growth Gelgarin. No, I don't consider a .1 bump in your TV ratings to be a significant growth. They haven't moved out of the Impact Zone, they aren't taking their TV show on the road, their ratings aren't significantly increasing, attendance remains virtually the same, they're basically in the same spot they've been in for several years from a business perspective.
None of that is actually relevant to my initial point though. SD argued that the people in charge of TNA have no reason to make big changes to their product, when it's abundantly clear that they in fact DO feel the need to make big changes to their product, hence the re-branding of their entire company.
Seriously, how is re-branding your entire company not a major change?
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
You're seriously going to dispute TNA hyping change?
Yeah, it sure did. Kaz lost to Abyss in a 5 minute match, Samoa Joe destroyed Amazing Red, Matt Hardy beat Gen Me, by himself basically.
The Kaz/Abyss match was what I expected, not all that upset about it, as it will probably lead to some sort of angle. Red shouldn't have even had the match with Samoa Joe, that was idiotic. I'm not nearly as upset about Bischoff getting the pin as I am Matt Hardy being able to defeat a tag team by himself.
I thought about that last night, but I also thought about the differences. While WWE may not be as great as it once was, the things they do usually pay off, or work out. I have faith that the Orton/Christian thing is going somewhere. In all honesty, I wouldn't be shocked if that was the end of the X-Division guys. Probably won't be, but I wouldn't be surprised. TNA doesn't have the track record, over the past year and a half, when it comes to the X-Division and how they're handled.
Sometimes this is true. However, given this new "focus" on wrestling, how about a longer match? For once, on Impact, I would like to see a match that goes past 7 minutes. They will let a total mess of a brawl take up ten minutes, but not a match. It's fucking stupid.
Not exactly sure what you're getting at here, but it's obvious they feel the pulse of the fanbase. They know a lot of people want a lot of things to change. They know it. So they tell us things are about to change, BROTHER, we're going to change the wrestling world forever, blah, blah, blah, and on goes the bullshit. They talk about change, because they know, on some level, it's needed. Executing change is an entirely different monster. They talk about change, and believe talking about it is enough. They wouldn't constantly bring it up if they didn't know a lot of people are unhappy.
Solid theory, but how would we know that? Foley wasn't even there. Immortal was still completely in charge, so the Network Rep meant nothing. If Foley isn't there half the time, how can he change anything? This was supposed to be a big night for TNA, and the guy (kayfabe) making all of the changes wasn't even booked to be on the show. From where I'm sitting, the whole thing was botched. Doesn't mean this is an overall failure, but it sure as hell isn't off to the great start you're claiming.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
I really hope X intentionally engages in his selective reading "skills." If he is actually that blindly self absorbed then it really is one of the saddest things I have ever witnessed.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
The "it's TNA" defense. Been a while since I have seen that one busted out. People must be getting more desperate than I thought. That was a clear story set up for the X-division people. Where it goes who knows but that was a clear story, no speculation involved. Everything surrounding Orton/Christian was purely hypothetical.
How does Immortal dominate that show if Foley is there? A struggle emphasizes the "change" people want to root for. This was the first show and they mentioned Foley and Hogan feuding with the other powers that be elsewhere and you tune in to see what comes of that. The only initial goal was generate interest and I think it seemed to do that. What happens from here who knows?
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
It's a valid argument, like it or not. The X-Division has meant absolutely nothing over the past year and a half, so why should I believe this storyline is actually going somewhere?
Actually, you just threw out a shit load of speculation. What exactly did we see? Bischoff said his goal was to destroy the X-Division, last night. What happened? The X-Division guys lost all of their matches. In all honesty, if we're ditching speculation, that's the end of the angle. Bischoff won, no?
It was the first show of a new "era" in TNA. Foley was put in place to provide change. On the first show, of this new TNA, what happened? Immortal ran crazy, again. Not one thing changed. You don't need to change everything in one night, but Foley should have been there to make at least some changes, if only to show this is for real. Instead, we saw the same ol', same ol', once again. This angle needed last night to show changes are coming. That didn't happen, Foley wasn't even there. Immortal dominated, once again.
Joe's Gonna Kill You
The Hunt is On
Looks like there is going to be an all X-Division PPV with the 6sided ring
Looks like there is going to be an all X-Division PPV with the 6sided ring
They're bringing back the 6 sided ring for the PPV? Cool. I know they'd been planning on making the PPV X-Division themed, didn't know they were going to bring back the six sides.
I honestly hope they just have nothing but X-Division matches on the show. Fuck the other divisions and feuds.
It's Damn Real!
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
Wow...
Wholesale change!
And no, it's not a big change. It's a very small change, around the same level as WWE wanting to be referred to by it's initials, or Marathon becoming Snickers or any of the thousand other rebrandings that have happened in recent memory.
Jif didn't change what was in the bottle, they just changed the first letter so that ethic folk could pronounce it.
Marathon didn't change what was in the bar. The WWE didn't change it's product. KFC still serves up the same chicken. Backrub didn't introduce new software until they'd already been Google for quite some time.
Changing the name indicated one thing and one thing only, that the name is going to be different. It's an advertising ploy, it has always been an advertising ploy and that is all it will ever be. Hell, TNA have gone on the record as saying that the basic reason for the name change was simply to get rid of the negative association with tits and ass.
It is not a huge change.
But they haven't changed the product. That's what the internet media is complaining about at the moment. The product is pretty much the same, it is simply being marketed differently. "Wrestling matters" is nothing different to "Cross the line" or "We are wrestling". It's a slogan, not an omen of change within the company.
Err... yes you did? Look...
See; quotation marks. That makes it a quote, or in this case a dishonest and misleading misquotation. Quote marks indicate something as a direct transcript of what a person has said, so yes, you absolutely did quote him.
I did try to explain this once before, as memory serves it was just before you started raving about how everyone hated me, so perhaps you missed it last time around. Here's hoping for some better luck this time.
No, it is not. It would be a huge change if it were accompanied by huge changes, but thus far it has not been.
So? Seriously, what does that actually show? TNA's ratings are very, very good for the network it is on. That is why there are approximatively zero shows on Spike at the moment that are delivering stronger ratings. Spike was over the moon issuing press releases galore when the debut episode of Jesse James Is a Dead Man came in with a similar rating to TNA. Manswers (the show Spike usually airs right next to TNA) comes in comfortably lower than TNA every week. The only show Spike has ever aired that managed to reliably outdraw TNA was UFC, and I'm given to understand that Ultimate Fighter has fallen by the wayside as well now.
TNA's ratings goal is to please Spike TV because that is where the money comes from. TNA is the most consistent ratings drawing property Spike TV has. Spike TV is happy enough with TNA to poor large sums of money into paying the talent. As such I conclude that TNA's ratings are good enough.
Attendance's have increased significantly actually, especially for house shows. The house show schedule has been expanded. The number of shows coming from outside of Orlando has expanded. TNA's international presence has expanded, with highly successful tours happening across the UK and more recently the EU.
And even if none of that were true, being in the same spot is NOT A BAD THING, it's a good spot to be in.
Because it doesn't involve any major changes?
The product has stayed the same.
All the staff have stayed the same.
The business model appears to have stayed the same.
All that has changed is a name, which you are getting tremendously over excited about.
Looks like there is going to be an all X-Division PPV with the 6sided ring
That is fucking awesome. First time in memory that I have been legitimately excited by a wrestling poster.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
And when in the last 10+ years has Vince cared about Christian? Why should I believe they are going somewhere significant with it?
Out of curiosity, how does the it's TNA defense gel with the I watch because it might get better excuse?
In a kayfabe world where you purposely choose the stupidest possible outcome maybe. With the smallest amount of common sense you can tell there is a story brewing here. Just like there is a story with Orton and Christian that remains to be told. It is like you said X-division has been irrelevant for a while. Now on this big show they are getting a large amount of focus. That is an undeniable step up. How far it goes is speculation but to suggest it is just to bury them is ridiculous and ignores an orgy of rather obvious evidence to the contrary. Much more evidence exists for some attempt at X-division revitalization than a Christian is a big deal story.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Looks like there is going to be an all X-Division PPV with the 6sided ring
MTFO.
JJYanks121
The Mouth of the South Shore
You just completely miss people's points, don't you? Nick is saying that there COULD be a big story here, but evidence of the Hogan/Bischoff regime since last January suggests that there won't be. This evidence isn't only for 18 months though, as you can ask Jericho, Mysterio, Benoit, Guerrero, Milenko, and others whether being undersized made you a star under Bischoff.
We are all hoping that this leads to something big, but evidence says to us that it won't be big. If anything, that Destination X show will be like Hardcore justice last year, where we "remember" the X-Division days of old and put it to bed for good. There's just as great a chance at seeing that as there is seeing Kendrick using this storyline to propel into stardom. Granted he should as he has more talent in his pinkie than most of the roster (personal opinion of course), but he's small and that's not going to happen. Hell, AJ styles is nowhere near the top of the card anymore and he used to be considered the face of the company!
Comparing this to Orton/Christian is stupid because both guys are incredibly more important than the X-Division. Complain all you want about Christian and whether Vince likes him or not, but he's main eventing a PPV with Orton and has a solid position in the company. It's probably not where marks would like to see him (and I am a Christian mark), but it's way better than where Brian Kendrick and Gen Me are at with TNA. Yes, Orton could win Sunday, end the feud, and Christian could be the #2 face on the show and feud with Mark Henry. Guess what? He's STILL more important than this storyline. That's not important here though. This is TNA and this is an Impact Wrestling thread.
The point Nick made was that to say where either story is going is speculation. Yes, you might understand the business and have a guess where it's going, but you could also be very wrong. The X-Division stuff MIGHT lead to something awesome, but it might lead to its demise as well. It's all speculation. Honestly though, who cares. It's not leading to Kendrick getting a push, and no one else in that division is remotely worthy of moving up the card except Jay Lethal who is gone. Speaking of which, Randy Savage died today and you are all still bitching like babies. Respect people!
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
May 1st, 2011, when Vince allowed him to win the WHC.
Because WWE has a better track record of following through on angles/storylines. If you thought it was even possible for Christian to immediately drop into the mid-card, you're nuts.
Easily, actually. Those in charge, who aren't stupid people, could wise up, and change direction. Dixie could hire new writers, or different bookers. When I say I watch in hopes of the show improving, that doesn't necessarily mean this exact group running TNA is going to make that happen. You make things that are very simple quite complicated. I shouldn't be surprised, it's what you do.
In a kayfabe world where you purposely choose the stupidest possible outcome maybe. With the smallest amount of common sense you can tell there is a story brewing here. Just like there is a story with Orton and Christian that remains to be told. It is like you said X-division has been irrelevant for a while. Now on this big show they are getting a large amount of focus. That is an undeniable step up. How far it goes is speculation but to suggest it is just to bury them is ridiculous and ignores an orgy of rather obvious evidence to the contrary. Much more evidence exists for some attempt at X-division revitalization than a Christian is a big deal story.[/QUOTE]
You wanted to get rid of speculation, and that's what I did. It's what you asked for. If we're dropping speculation, and sticking with what we saw, Bischoff accomplished his goal, no? Fucks sake SD, at least read what you've already posted.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
One day in 10+ years? Quite convincing.
Yep TNA never revealed the mystery person influencing the show and WWE did. Oh wait ...
I do not think Christian is going to mid-card. I actually do not care what happens with him. I am just pointing out that the idea that the story could be a positive for Christian is pure speculation because he was already in a pretty good spot before it. The X-division was in a spot where literally anything was better. They are at the very least getting something and thus it is an improvement. With Christian it remains to be seen if it is an improvement.
What is complicated about what I said? You have no confidence in those in charge doing something you might like yet you watch in hopes it gets better. Oxymoronic IMO. If that is the case why not wait until they change the people in charge to watch again?
Yes. Wrestling storylines always end when the heel accomplished his goal. For fucks sake man read what you are writing.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Why are we even talking about being a star? We are talking about the current X-division. If you want them to be a star in a few months then your expectations are a tad bit ridiculous. Bischoff gets a bad rap when it comes to the smaller guys and especially the "X-division" style. I do not think many of the cruiserweight guys are necessarily obvious main event material and your list doesn't do a lot to change my mind on the subject. The style is useful on the rest of the card though and Bischoff has often used it. Thus, he is giving the guys a chance and if they rise to the occasion then they can advance to a decent spot.
I assume by put it to bed for good you mean several people prominently featured for months afterwards including on the biggest PPV show of the year.
So the guy who did the opening promo going head to head with Bischoff on a hyped show is not getting any push whatsoever? Interesting take ...
This how me and nick discuss things. Doesn't really seem like bitching to me. Life goes on JJ.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
He won the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP. One hour, one day, one week, one year -- either way, it's an honor.
Is the Mystery GM angle dead and buried, and no one told me? As far as I know, it's still going. Maybe interest isn't where it needs to be, not as big of a deal as it was months ago, but it's still in play. Again, you're missing the point. Well, it's that, or you understand what I'm going for, but choose to take it in your own direction. Either way, you're off base.
I do not think Christian is going to mid-card. I actually do not care what happens with him. I am just pointing out that the idea that the story could be a positive for Christian is pure speculation because he was already in a pretty good spot before it.
And, for the 1,234th time, I dropped the speculation angle, which was your idea. You are one frustrating mother fucker sometimes.
That's assuming this goes somewhere. It probably will, but again, I have no faith in TNA's ability to stick with a storyline, especially something in the mid-card area.
If we're going by what we saw, actually saw, like you suggested we start doing, what then? The X-Division had a terrible night, Bischoff won, and it's over. ONE MORE TIME -- this is if we drop speculation, completely.
If I did that, I wouldn't be able to have these weekly arguments with you.
There you go, SD, great job. Keep ignoring your own request to stop the speculation.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Call it "degree" of speculation if that will appease you. I'd bet everything I own and then some that the story with the X-division did not end last night. Beyond that the entire premise of your argument is your own personal biases. Not your best work IMO. Being optimistic about WWE and pessimistic about TNA doesn't prove a point to anything but your own opinion.
