First Round: San Francisco - Bryan Danielson vs. Diamond Dallas Page

[FunKay the Inevitable]

How am I wrong? I've gven you my opinion and it's just that. MY OPINION. The Arquette thing is always going to be brought up as a cheap shot that I give you. Because I think he's (DDP) overrated (I spelt it 'ovveratted' once) doesn't mean that I don't think he deserves a world title I just feel that the way he is remembered isn't the way he should be remembered. Christopher Daniels is in the tournament, is he part of this 'great' circle of wrestlers? I'm entitled to my opinion and just because I don't think he's great doesn't make it so. I could think ben & jerry's is a better ice Cream than Hagen Daz but that doesn't make it so. It's MY OPINION. I took Danielson because I felt he has the better in ring ability and that edges him ahead. I'll give you another person who should have won a world title but never did: Ted DiBiase. Just because he won the title doesn't mean he's not a quality in-ring performer. He's better than Danielson & DDP in my book. You have yet to prove that DDP isn't repetitive I think he is. I clearly should look Websters up more often because you are clearly correct. Well done. Tenta, face it, I'm not going to quit and neither are you. It's one or the other and people will vote for whoever. This debate probably won't change anything.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

the best wrestler in the world wins here his moveset and endurance is what gets him over here hes had several matches go over 60 minutes and hes beaten the best all over the globe danielson is the man here

Wrong Statement #1: Doesn't matter if he can go 60 minutes because this match is a 20 minute time limit.

Wrong Statement #2: Name the wrestlers that Danielson has beat that are good as Hennig, Savage, and Flair. Good luck with that.

 

[pun2003hh]

So you're saying that Danielson is on the road to becoming great? If that's the case, then he better become Ric Flair in the next four days if he is going to beat Page. DDP was one of the hottest things WCW had going and beat mostly all of the top guys in WCW at the time. Danielson is good but he is not good enough to beat DDP right now.

This is another argument that I do not agree with. DDP was never a huge big money draw. There, I said it. He was a draw, and he was popular, but he was never THE draw in WCW. Page was the midcard champion during WCW's hottest period and it was during Page's main event run that the company began it's ratings decline. Page won the title in mid 99. The company folded in early 01. Not saying it was because of Page, but this fact negates your argument.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

How am I wrong? I've gven you my opinion and it's just that. MY OPINION. The Arquette thing is always going to be brought up as a cheap shot that I give you. Because I think he's (DDP) overrated (I spelt it 'ovveratted' once) doesn't mean that I don't think he deserves a world title I just feel that the way he is remembered isn't the way he should be remembered. Christopher Daniels is in the tournament, is he part of this 'great' circle of wrestlers? I'm entitled to my opinion and just because I don't think he's great doesn't make it so. I could think ben & jerry's is a better ice Cream than Hagen Daz but that doesn't make it so. It's MY OPINION. I took Danielson because I felt he has the better in ring ability and that edges him ahead. I'll give you another person who should have won a world title but never did: Ted DiBiase. Just because he won the title doesn't mean he's not a quality in-ring performer. He's better than Danielson & DDP in my book. You have yet to prove that DDP isn't repetitive I think he is. I clearly should look Websters up more often because you are clearly correct. Well done. Tenta, face it, I'm not going to quit and neither are you. It's one or the other and people will vote for whoever. This debate probably won't change anything.

It doesn't matter if DDP was repetitive as you claim he was. Look at some of the all-time greats. Hogan, Flair, Undertaker, HHH, and HBK were repetitive all the time yet it didn't seem to affect them from winning most of their matches. I'm not saying Danielson is a slouch in the ring but I've seen enough from both competitors to believe that DDP will beat Danielson.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

This is another argument that I do not agree with. DDP was never a huge big money draw. There, I said it. He was a draw, and he was popular, but he was never THE draw in WCW. Page was the midcard champion during WCW's hottest period and it was during Page's main event run that the company began it's ratings decline. Page won the title in mid 99. The company folded in early 01. Not saying it was because of Page, but this fact negates your argument.

Most of the people in this forum rates HBK as an all-time great wrestler. He didn't draw in the WWE so why does it matter that DDP may not have been a huge draw in WCW? Danielson may have drawn huge in ROH but ROH isn't WCW. If this was a contest to see who was THE draw, then this tournament would have Hogan and Austin.

 

[pun2003hh]

Most of the people in this forum rates HBK as an all-time great wrestler. He didn't draw in the WWE so why does it matter that DDP may not have been a huge draw in WCW? Danielson may have drawn huge in ROH but ROH isn't WCW. If this was a contest to see who was THE draw, then this tournament would have Hogan and Austin.

You are completely right, but you were just using the drawing argument about 5 posts ago! That is the only reason why I brought this up. I still believe that Danielson had the better offense.

 

[Tenta]

How am I wrong? I've gven you my opinion and it's just that. MY OPINION. The Arquette thing is always going to be brought up as a cheap shot that I give you.

Yes, it's your opinion, but I have mine, and unlike using vague defenses (he's a better wrestler, DDP is overrated) I'm bringing you facts which can't be denied.

Fact: DDP has a history of beating wrestlers that are better than him.

Fact: DDP has been a world champion in a big promotion; Bryan Danielson hasn't.

Fact: DDP has beaten some of the biggest names in wrestling; Danielson has a win over a visiting Kenta, who we all know wasn't going to go over, and Nigel McGuiness. Peanuts compared to what DDP has done. Sheer peanuts. Kenta is impressive, but would be more impressive if it wasn't a guarantee Danielson was going over.

Because I think he's (DDP) overrated (I spelt it 'ovveratted' once) doesn't mean that I don't think he deserves a world title I just feel that the way he is remembered isn't the way he should be remembered.

Great, glad to see you cleared that up. But you're still wrong; DDP is remembered as a World Champion, and while not an elite name, still a great hand for WCW at it's best. No arguing any of that, really.

Christopher Daniels is in the tournament, is he part of this 'great' circle of wrestlers?

Well, in all fairness, Daniels has done more outside of ROH. He's actually won something in TNA, and has put some effort in being one of the founding wrestlers of TNA. Bryan Danielson, meanwhile, has done absolutely nothing of note in either the WWE or TNA.

I'm entitled to my opinion and just because I don't think he's great doesn't make it so. I could think ben & jerry's is a better ice Cream than Hagen Daz but that doesn't make it so. It's MY OPINION.

I'm sorry, but this is a forum. If I don't like your opinion, I'm going to debate it, and point out what I feel are flaws in your reasoning.

I took Danielson because I felt he has the better in ring ability and that edges him ahead. I'll give you another person who should have won a world title but never did: Ted DiBiase. Just because he won the title doesn't mean he's not a quality in-ring performer. He's better than Danielson & DDP in my book.

Well, that's great and kind of a rambling sentence, but again, that doesn't mean in a kayfabe tournament, DiBiase is going over. He may be one of the best, but he'll probably be taken out in round one or two. Just like Bryan Danielson.

You have yet to prove that DDP isn't repetitive I think he is.

You're the one that made the accusation; prove he is repetitive. You haven't even done that, really. Until you prove that he is reptitive, I have no obligation to prove he isn't until you prove that he is,

clearly should look Websters up more often because you are clearly correct. Well done.

I'm glad you see things my way.

Tenta, face it, I'm not going to quit and neither are you. It's one or the other and people will vote for whoever. This debate probably won't change anything.

Well, in the span of our debate, DDP has went from being down by two, to up by three.

Yes, you're right. It doesn't change anything.

I love that people are tearing down ROH as a small promotion with no effect, but obviously the people that put this tournament together thought highly enough of the promotion to allow it's world title as a qualification to be entered into said tournament.

Well, clearly, you forget the fact that mod's also had selections of their own that they could make in this tournament. The Berzerker's a mod's choice, so was Marty Jannety. Again, if one mod likes Bryan Danielson, that doesn't mean he's one of the greatest. And that certainly doesn't mean that I have to vote him over a three time World Heavyweight Champion, of an overall better promotion.

ECW was a tiny promotion as well, and they put together shows infront of 100s of fans. Yet they have their stars peppered all over this tournament. Obviously the size of the promotion doesn't matter.

Yes, but most of those stars have done things outside of ECW to warrant being a member of this tournament. ECW was a great promotion, but you'll notice most of the ECW "die-hards" are not in this tournament. Sandman? Fucking knocked out in elimination. Tommy Dreamer? He wasn't even on the list. Axl Rose and Ian Rotten are conspicuous by their abscence, and so is Ball's Mahoney. So, yes, you really do need something else on your resume besides "I filled out a bingo hall in Philly"

Consider your little theory debunked.

The quality of the in ring work does. And I have seen alot of people give great arguments for DDP, defending his work.

What's your point here, again?

But the argument's against Danielson have been shit. I haven't seen anyone comment on his actual in ring work other then the lame "small promotion" "smarky fans" and "12 different armbar variation" crutches that people use to tear down ROH guys.

So here's a little hint;

Get people off their fucking asses to post in this thread and defend him.

Seriously, Doc and Shocky voted for Danielson, and they haven't posted yet. They're both great posters. You think I like hearing "Danielson's a better wrestlur!!!!1!!!1" Fucking fifteen thousand times? I don't. Let someone else come and debate me, but don't defend Danielson by saying "no one's giving a good argument for Danielson". It's probably because they can't, really.

 

[GenMe]

DDP was the hottest wrestler in WCW and I bet if he goes and signs with any wrestling promotion he will be the hottest wrestler in that promotion.

Brian is a fan favorite in any promotion "ROH". He is great in the ring, But IMO he still need a lot to learn, as of right now he seems lost in NXT, And that the reason why I stopped watching NXT.

Therefor DDP hits the Dimond cutter on Danielson and he gets the 1,2,3. Winner Dimond Dallas Page.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I'm not going to respond to the debate because I'm too physically tired to do so and because this will go on for a long time. Personally Tenta I think you so far one of the few people who's actually convinced me that your opinion is very solid and has good foundations.Bravo sir. But just one thing before I leave, did you say this was a kayfabe tournament? Because I didn't think it was. I'm just checking though. Good night all.

 

[Shocky]

I really have nothing to say besides I don't like DDP. He was one of the big reasons I stopped watching WCW in 1998. Never understood the appeal. I'm not going to deny that he got over, and got over big. The Diamond Cutter was sweet when they were running the, How many Ways can DDP hit the Diamond Cutter? angle. I admire the fact that the guy worked his ass off to get to were he was. He didn't get his big break until his 40's, and he made the most of it.

That being said, my personal style of wrestling I like to watch is mat based. I love a good submission wrestler, and Danielson's style is something I enjoy more. I don't treat the ROH world title as an elite world title, but I think it carries more weight then recent incarnations of WCW and WWE mid card titles. I remember DDP as a decent US champion, but a failure as world champion.

It simply comes down to personal taste, yes DDP did more in a bigger company, but I could care a less about 90+% of his matches.

 

[pun2003hh]

Well, clearly, you forget the fact that mod's also had selections of their own that they could make in this tournament. The Berzerker's a mod's choice, so was Marty Jannety. Again, if one mod likes Bryan Danielson, that doesn't mean he's one of the greatest. And that certainly doesn't mean that I have to vote him over a three time World Heavyweight Champion, of an overall better promotion.

No you don't have to vote for him, or anyone else for that matter. But you are devaluing a promotion that is important enough to be included in this tournament.

Yes, but most of those stars have done things outside of ECW to warrant being a member of this tournament. ECW was a great promotion, but you'll notice most of the ECW "die-hards" are not in this tournament. Sandman? Fucking knocked out in elimination. Tommy Dreamer? He wasn't even on the list. Axl Rose and Ian Rotten are conspicuous by their abscence, and so is Ball's Mahoney. So, yes, you really do need something else on your resume besides "I filled out a bingo hall in Philly"

Soooo, you are saying that AJ Styles, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Christopher Daniels, Homicide, Jamie Noble, and Eddie Guerrero have done nothing outside of ROH. Got it, I'll make note of that.

What's your point here, again?

Acknowledging other legit arguments instead of being condesending to those who I am debating. You should try it.

So here's a little hint;

Get people off their fucking asses to post in this thread and defend him.

Seriously, Doc and Shocky voted for Danielson, and they haven't posted yet. They're both great posters. You think I like hearing "Danielson's a better wrestlur!!!!1!!!1" Fucking fifteen thousand times? I don't. Let someone else come and debate me, but don't defend Danielson by saying "no one's giving a good argument for Danielson". It's probably because they can't, really.

First off, you completely missed what I said. I said for those that are shitting on Danielson, give me a real reason why. The "bingo hall" mentality is NOT a valid argument in my opinion. Danielson could wrestle in a damn soup kitchen, but bottom line is his offense is alot more effective then DDP's. Also, I don't know the guys on this forum, and I am not going to call specific people for back up. If they feel strongly about it, they will post something. If not, they won't. I have already mentioned that voters in general need to be more vocal. I'll leave it at that.

 

[shattered dreams]

It should not be as simple as DDP won the big one at a "bigtime" promotion and Danielson has not because guys on their way up beat people like page all the time. Like people have mentioned DDP was a nobody for a longtime. Daniel Bryan, in his debut (sorta depending on how you feel about velocity of heat a long time ago), main evented the first episode of a brand new show with Chris Jericho. If his prime is now then that suggests he is a guy to be pushed. He is clearly a better technical wrestler than Page. So why could this match not be the the time Danielson scores the big victory to start moving to the next level? DDP is not going to be able to hit the cutter when Danielson snaps his arm one-minute into the match.

 

[pun2003hh]

DDP was the hottest wrestler in WCW and I bet if he goes and signs with any wrestling promotion he will be the hottest wrestler in that promotion.

Brian is a fan favorite in any promotion "ROH". He is great in the ring, But IMO he still need a lot to learn, as of right now he seems lost in NXT, And that the reason why I stopped watching NXT.

Therefor DDP hits the Dimond cutter on Danielson and he gets the 1,2,3. Winner Dimond Dallas Page.

DDP was not the hottest wrestler in WCW, by far. The point where he was champion was right around the time the ratings began to decline for WCW. And don't forget Page was with TNA for some time.... and did NOTHING while he was there.

And I again ask, please don't just use NXT as an example of Danielson's work, because it is a piss poor example and about 5% of this man's overall career.

 

[Tenta]

No you don't have to vote for him, or anyone else for that matter. But you are devaluing a promotion that is important enough to be included in this tournament.

I'm devaluing a promotion that can't sell out high school arenas? I wasn't so sure I could even do such a thing.

Soooo, you are saying that AJ Styles

Who got in by his TNA merits...

CM Punk,

WWE...

Samoa Joe,

TNA...

Christopher Daniels, Homicide,

Need I even really say it?

Jamie Noble,

Actually, he has done nothing outside of ROH. Is he in the tourney, Broseph?

and Eddie Guerrero have done nothing outside of ROH. Got it, I'll make note of that.

You seem to be missing the point. All of these guys have credentials outside of ROH, which helped them get in this tourney. Because, otherwise, none of these guys would be in the fucking tourney. Seriously, if you can give me one wrestler who got in based on his ROH merits alone, and wasn't a mod selection, I'll be stunned.

Acknowledging other legit arguments instead of being condesending to those who I am debating. You should try it.

Actually, no, I like being condescending. You should try it, it's fun. But I only do it when I find the logic to be abhorrently skewed. Such as yours.

First off, you completely missed what I said. I said for those that are shitting on Danielson, give me a real reason why. The "bingo hall" mentality is NOT a valid argument in my opinion. Danielson could wrestle in a damn soup kitchen, but bottom line is his offense is alot more effective then DDP's.

Really? Yes, his offense looks so damn good in losing every one of his WWE matches.

You want some arguments? Fine

He can't cut a promo to save his life.
He hasn't been world champion outside a company that makes ECW's Arena look like MSG.
He hasn't even won a match in the WWE yet.
He's accomplished nothing compared to DDP.

And yet, I've been saying this all the damn time. Yet, you seem to gloss over it. Why don't you dispute the fact that Danielson has yet to win a match in WWE? Why don't you dispute that The Great Khali took your smarky favorite, and made him his baby back bitch? Why don't you dispute that he hasn't won anything in the WWE yet.

Oh, that's right, because you can't.

Also, I don't know the guys on this forum, and I am not going to call specific people for back up. If they feel strongly about it, they will post something. If not, they won't. I have already mentioned that voters in general need to be more vocal. I'll leave it at that.

And yet, no one can come up with a valid point against DDP. Even Shocky, your best asset, said more or less he just doesn't get DDP. I think he only said three lines on why Bryan Danielson should win. His post wasn't about why B.D. Should win, it was why DDP should lose.

Mainly because, even he can't argue that DDP deserves the win

 

[Tastycles]

Diamond Dallas Page wasn't the world's greatest wrestler by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact of the matter is is that he was a big deal in WCW at a time when they had a lot of big deal potential. He was able to rise futher up the company than a lot of people, and in the diamond cutter he has a finisher that comes from nowhere, and nigh on impossible to counter. I cannot be arsed to get sucked into a debate, but one of these men's run in the world's biggest wrestling company led to them becoming it's world champion, while the other has a losing streak on the third biggest show. DDP should win this.

 

[shattered dreams]

The diamond cutter is uncounterable? Umm, you just push the person forward or move your head. I would like to know how DDP counters or gets out of something like the cattle mutilation when CM Punk could not do it.

 

[pun2003hh]

Obviously, I can't have a debate with you Tenta without becoming a "Smarky smark that only love teh ROH guyz". So all I will say to the rest of you who have not made up your mind is watch Danielson's final match in ROH against McGuiness. Then watch any DDP match, say the one where he one the championship. Watch both matches and then decide two things.

1) Which was more entertaining to watch?
2) Who do you think would win between DDP and Danielson.

My opinion, Danielson would beat DDP hands down.

EDIT: Just because it is bothering me, the list of ROH guys I brought up was to simply point out these guys have seen tremendous success outside of ROH.

 

[Tenta]

Obviously, I can't have a debate with you Tenta without becoming a "Smarky smark that only love teh ROH guyz".

I'm sorry, but below your avatar you say you are the "Smart Mark". So, aside from sounding pretentious as Hell, yes, that's what it all boils down to. Stick with me, though, I'm going to need you for Funk/Orton. I know you're a smart fan; it's not as though I disrespect your smarkiness. But For God's sake, let Bryan Danielson actually win something of substance before we go off spouting how good he is.

So all I will say to the rest of you who have not made up your mind is

Well, you better hurry. Nore people are voting for DDP. And the less you debate, the less chance Danielson has.

watch Danielson's final match in ROH against McGuiness. Then watch any DDP match, say the one where he one the championship. Watch both matches and then decide two things.

1) Which was more entertaining to watch?
2) Who do you think would win between DDP and Danielson.

My opinion, Danielson would beat DDP hands down.

OOH..... Can I pick the DDP match? Pretty please?

Oh, yay! Thank you!

[YOUTUBE]Mod7yKiX9mE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]dFY-NRWubQ0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


Ok.... I ask the same exact question to the viewers.

 

[pun2003hh]

I'm sorry, but below your avatar you say you are the "Smart Mark". So, aside from sounding pretentious as Hell, yes, that's what it all boils down to. Stick with me, though, I'm going to need you for Funk/Orton. I know you're a smart fan; it's not as though I disrespect your smarkiness. But For God's sake, let Bryan Danielson actually win something of substance before we go off spouting how good he is.



Well, you better hurry. Nore people are voting for DDP. And the less you debate, the less chance Danielson has.




OOH..... Can I pick the DDP match? Pretty please?

Oh, yay! Thank you!

[YOUTUBE]Mod7yKiX9mE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]dFY-NRWubQ0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


Ok.... I ask the same exact question to the viewers.

Hahaha, this post alone just won me over. I am too tired to keep fighting for Danielson when he isn't even the guy I am backing fully. Let someone else take over. And yes, I am looking forward to the Funk/Orton match, though I am still undecided.

 

[Razor]

DDP was big in WCW, and was a world champion back when it was important to be a big deal on WCW.

Danielson....was ROH champion, and has failed to win a single match in the WWE.

Danielson, a ROH Champion, has yet to defeat any other rookies on NXT. He's a champion that has failed to defeat other rookies. Something's wrong with that when you're claiming that since he's a ROH champion he can defeat DDP. DDP almost didn't really beat Goldberg. Gold-fucking-Berg. Danielson can't even beat the Miz.

Sure, if personal tastes move you to vote for Danielson, more power to you. But don't claim that being ROH Champion makes him a better wrestler than DDP. It doesn't make any kind of sense.

 

[Shocky]

With all fairness to the current incarnation of Daniel Bryan, and to break the Kayfabe argument for a minute, dude is clearly the biggest star on that show. I get it, he's lost 7 matches in a row, but NXT has been built nearly entirely around breaking the Indy perception of Bryan Danielson, and the WWE creating Daniel Bryan. Danielson was clearly the driving factor in the foundation of NXT, much like RVD was the driving force of the reincarnated WWECW. Yes he has lost a lot, but would the WWE center an entire show around recreating DDP?

If we're judging based on early WWE Careers, then remember, Daniel Bryan is at least wrestling, while DDP was doing this...

 

[Thriller Ant]

This one is tough for me. DDP was a big success in WCW during its heyday but Bryan Danielson is one of, if not the biggest non-ECW indy star of all-time. For this match, I'm taking who I would think would win in a one-on-one match, no gimmicks or stipulations, and I really think that would be Danielson. DDP has the Diamond Cutter, which is one of the greatest finishers of all-time, but he didn't have the greatest moveset to support it. Danielson, on the other hand, has made tons of men submit to many different submission moves, such as Cattle Mutilation, triangle choke, crossface chickenwing, etc. I'm voting for American Dragon.

 

[The Doctor]

Well, Tenta mentioned me, so I thought I might as well speak up.

Want to know why I voted for Danielson? It has nothing to do with wrestling skills, kayfabe, any of that. I voted because of personal taste.
Danielson just has a persona that I really like. He reminds me a bit of myself, in that he's mellow and really likeable. Maybe DDP has those qualities as well, but when I watch classic videos of him, I don't feel myself connecting like I do Danielson.
We're allowed to vote any way we want, and so I did. You can tell me I know nothing about wrestling or that I'm being an idiot, but I don't care.

Danielson for the win.

 

[Mr. TM]

I remember a Mister CM Punk catching a ride on the car that brought Cena to the Ring at Mania before he made it big in WWE, after departing the indys as well.

I was high on Danielson for being the building piece of NXT, it shows a lot of respect for the guy, but the show has failed it seems. Also, I think Otunga has proven to be the bigger star as of now, so take that as you will.

 

[Theo Mays]

There is no doubt that Danielson is a great wrestler, but I can't see him going over DDP. Page could wrestle well enough to stay with Danielson and Page was pretty fucking epic back in WCW. The guy was a guy that all the fans connected too. While fans may connect to Danielson, he hasn't made the impact that Page has made on this business and there is no way Page loses in my mind.