And I seem to remember his "I'll be back" speech getting no reaction at all.
It's a good job that I wasn't going by that then. And I agree. Gabriel can't talk for toffee.
Yes and those same people are the reason no one outside the Main Event these days has any character or interest to them.
I'll let you in on a secret. Midcarders have characters too. Unless Miz, R-Truth, Christian, Drew McIntyre, Zack Ryder, the Dudebusters and Chris Jericho became main eventers since the last time I checked.
And you're right Danielson was a midcarder and he should've been involved in his feud with Miz and Cole instead someone slapped together this angle with all the NXT guys suddenly being friends in spite of them hating each other previously.
Nothing unites like a common enemy. ANd Danielson has more reason to hate WWE management than anybody.
Bryan's gone and the Miz is back in the US title scene when the original reason he lost it was so the could initiate the grudge-feud with Bryan.
Or, alternatively WWE had/has plans for R-Truth.
Slapped together booking if ever there was.
Not really. This angle is being considered as one of the best in recent years. This would end up being better for Danielson than a feud with Miz and a career in the midcard.
The alternative was to not make the faction.
sending the other 6 to FCW, Bryan to the midcard, and Barrett to the uppermidcard after a feud with Cena.
However with Bryan involved they at least had a chance of looking like a genuine faction were each member is a threat instead of 1 guy and his minions.
Bull... Shit. How exactly does the addition of Danielson make every member look more threatening?
Yes the faction would look stronger because you would have had 2 members who were ready to go,
And considering that Danielson would be in the background like every other member for the beginning of the angle, that's irrelevent.
however the faction now isn't a faction.
Really? I could have sworn it was.
so was the ministry. Was that a faction?
A faction is supposed to have multiple members who could win.
And they can win. It doesn't have to be clean because they're fucking bangbanging heels ffs.
Look at all the factions throughout history, the horsemen, the original nWo, DX, the MEM, Evolution, each member was legit, aside from Barrett who in this "faction" is legit?
And which of those factions were being used to establish largely unknown tallent? The Horsemen wer Legit pre-horsemen. As were nWo, the MEM and Evolution. The only relavent comparason you made was Evolution, and even then it fails because Randy and Batista were midcarders made ME ready. The rookies are unknown guys getting over by this angle. You're making invalid comparasons.
None of them so the "faction" fails because it's just going to be Barrett challenging for the World Title (prematurely) and the others sit there doing nothing.
See: invalid comparasons. The point of this angle as it seems to me is to A establish Barrett as a Upper midcarder/MEer and B get the rookies over. Seems to be doing a pretty good job if it too.
No I don't, that's why it's a bad angle.
How is it a bad angle? It has produced two of the best endings to Raw in recent memory in quick succession, with logical booking and a huge suprise to kick it off. How is this bad. You've got an angle effectively getting 7 guys over as a threat (albeit as a pack. singles credibility comes later)
A month or two of these guys wrestling on the two shows, with subtle elements of a possible alliance would've made it more interesting,
Question, would Hulk Hogan's shock alliance with the outsiders have been more interesting if it had been hinted for months? The start of the angle was a shock, which generated a ton of interest in the angle. Logical show to show booking will take that interest, maintain it and build upon it. Another question, would you think the angle would be more interesting with Danielson in attendence?
instead a group of guys who hated eachother are suddenly aligned and in that shitty situation you at least had 2 guys with some amount of build, now you have 1, therefore pointless faction.
A pointless faction that will get them all over as heels, before starting their midcard singles careers; with the exception of Barrett, who WILL main event.
Ok so lets look at this "Believable fashion" what's believable about 7 rivals teaming up out of nowhere? Nothing!!!
What's believable about Communist hating Nazi Germany alligning itself with the USSR? Nothing!!! and yet it happened, for the (initial) benefit of both parties. The rookies have been treated like shit by WWE management. They aren't strong enough to go against it individually, so they band together against their common foe. Also, when was it shown that they hated eachother? They might not have gotten along, but do you get along with all of your coworkers?
B. "give the rookies spotlight so no one forgets them" are you now forgetting that you've spent this whole time calling the rookies expendable and stating they'll be back to FCW soon?
No. But It's A what everybody thought was going to happen to them and B what would have happened to them without this angle.
What's the point in remembering them? Oh and no one's going too because they're not interesting.
Because they're actually quite good, and they'll fucking remember them now
because of this angle. Win-win for everybody. The rookies get over, the fans get to enjoy this great angle.
C. yeah nothing like gang attacks that will lead to lacklustre squashes against everyone minus Barrett, great television.
Or, ya know they can avoid singles matches and when forced into them get the gang involved. Which avoids the whole credability crushing squashes. Or they could put them in the ring against people who they couls credably beat. Or not book them in squashes. All are possible, doable and forseeable. Unless you're searching for ways for the angle to fail. Which you are. Sit back, stop bitching and enjoy the ride.
Yes and you're calling the people who've been booking RAW for years "competent" nothing screams competency like 2 3/4 hours of idiocy and 15 minutes of beatdown. Yeah real competent.
And has Raw gotten high ratings, the PPVs got decent buyrates, and has the angle gotten massively over? Yes. Where is the incompetance here?
Also, what do you think of as competant booking?
And most of Bryan's opponets had been actual stars. He fought Khali, he got choke slammed by the Big Show, he fought Regal.
And he did great against all of them. Until they hit him. Hit match against Regal was great. It was all danielson. Until Regal hit a northern lights suplez and kneed him in the head. Same with Danielson Khali. Danielson was choking him out, until he had to release the hold and Khali hit his finisher.
Save for some screwy matches with the other NXT guys he at least got seen in the ring with actual WWE stars.
so did most of the uper tier NXT guys.
Danielson is good enough to make the angle,
He is
not good enough to make or break this angle.
however the angle shouldn't have been made. Although this angle has ruined Danielson's push, so it must be a success amirite?
No it hasn't. Danielson's release did that. And he got released for legit strangling someone with a tie. And as for his face push? Wouldn't that have happened anyway after he turned on the group that's been terrorising raw for months, beating up people and stealing the show? Possibly with him getting more over as a face because of it?
And at what point in Barrett's match did he almost have Cena tapping?
At what point in Bryan's match did he have nearfalls? Barrett isn't a submisisons guy, Bryan is. Irrelevent comparasons.
And actually by having Batista crush Bryan afterwards it implied Batista was actually worried he'd have lost.
Or Batista was angry (possibly because of Bryan) and decided to take it out on Bryan. But the effect is the same.
And I'd say if they'd been given two months to develop some level of character the angle would be a lot more enjoyable.
Or alternatively do the angle, and let them develop characters when people will be paying attention to them, while Barrett carrys their asses on the mic.
Well as you can see it was quite memorable
lol, granted.
Brock Lesnar and Goldberg spring to mind.
Granted here as well, though Lesnar was helped by Heyman to get over, and all Goldberg had to do was scream 'YOU'RE NEXT' and squash somebody to get over. But granted.
When's Sheamus lost a 1 on 1 with Cena?
Meh, I was assuming he had. I only started following raw in detail after the NXT angle started.
And also each of those guys has beaten Cena clean.
A lucky push through a table is a credible, clean win?
By the time Orton and Cena faced off both were established, same with HHH.
And by the end of the angle, Barrett at the very least will be established.
Sheamus was the only one who wasn't and because of that it took a fairly long time after he actually became champion to get a solid reaction and he had the backing of HHH.
And Barrett isn't capable of getting established by working a programme with a main eventer?
Sure, but how's it any different than if he'd done it without them?
For one thing, it does kind of give him an out in why he's unable to beat people on his level, but is suddenly able to beat ME guys. For another Heels aren't fucking supposed to win clean. That's the face's job. Gang interference is as effective as it is old.
Ahh yes he beat Otunga who Cena squashed in about a minute and Evan Bourne 2.0.
Coincidentally, who did Evan Bourne 1.0 beat this week?
If the angle had been built properly instead of being slapped together to salvage the terrible show that preceded it, the chances of some guys having success would've been higher.
Except that it wasn't something that had been tought of 5 minutes before the show. Not least because it'd take some time to get the N armbands made and shipped. Shock booking gave the angle a headstart, episodic booking will take it too the end of its run, where everybody involved will have benefitted from it.
With 2 semi-built guys involved it would've been more believable that they were a threat.
Or the fact that they outnumber whoever they attack would make them believable as a threat. Much like how a gang of thugs could take down Brock Lesnar with a combined attack, despite the fact that he'd crush them 1 on 1.
Now they've got 6 guys who will be left to the role of "interchangeable flunky 1-6"
the same 6 interchangable flunkies that would have existed with Bryan?
With Bryan involved the angle had more room. E.g.
They could split the group in 2 one side lead by Bryan, one by Barrett.
That wouldn't have happened until well into the angle. And it's still somethong that could happen. When Danielson comes back, he WILL be involved with the NXT invasion.
And they could've gone multiple ways with that.
Yes they could. All of which wouldn't have happened until the angle was well established, with months of the peons doing nothing spectacular.
They could've had 2 factions one for Smackdown, one for Raw both heels
Making the gang less credible. Which is more believable 7/8 low tier guys taking on John Cena, or 4 guys taking him on? I'm pretty sure Cena's overcome greater then 4 on 1 odds. Also, 2 stables doing the exact same things gets old fast.
or a face team vs heel team.
Which wouldn't be a good thing to do until after the angle is well established as a big threatening gang of heels.
I'm not sure if thinking outside the box is a foreign concept to you but there's a lot of creative option they don't have now that Bryan's gone.
Yes, once they decided to split the gang up. Which would not be a good choice at this juncture.
And the need of the faction? non-existent. Because if he has all the skills there's no need for a group.
Flair also didn't need his horsemen. And yet, he had 'em despite having all the tools.
Yes there is, you think it's odd that Sheamus is already main event level when he went over his opponents cleanly whilst Drew McIntyre went the standard cheat to win route and is far less over?
Drew should be far more over than he is. No idea why he isn't.
Of course not. In the same sense why do you think more people consider Jericho a genuine threat then they do the Miz? Jericho cheats often but he's a credibly combatant against a guy like Cena, Miz isn't.
And Barrett will become established through this angle, just like Danielson would have to the WWE audience.
Why? Because he built a credible background before he challenged the top dogs.
And this is a well booked (so far) express route to the top.
Because it reminds the audience that even though this guy is a heel now he could still go toe-to-toe with the faces and that makes the outcome of the match in his favour more believable.
But when you consider that Barrett's wins over MErs will be tainted at best for the forseeable future, and he can pick up dominating wins over lower tier tallent, he can gain credability throughout the angle.
No, it hasn't. Clean win over a face implies that when push comes to shove he'll win.
and when he tends to lose without them? and how he couldn't get one over on Rey Mysterio without them? that counts as him winning when push comes to shove, does it?
His choice to cheat just means he wants to ensure his victory.
Except that he can't seen to win without cheating.
By comparison guy's who haven't proven they can win on their own, give off the message that they can't win on their own and so they aren't legit threats.
Coincidentally, messages heels should be giving off.
CM Punk's first match against Cena occurred around the time Punk was being jobbed out to everyone for questioning company policy.
Every wrestling news site toher than wrestlezone cofirmed that report was bullshit.
Which proves my point that the angle was slapped together and poorly thought out.
No it doesn't. It is proof that the NXT rookies are boing put in a big, hot angle while there's still residual traces of them in the fans' memories. That is sensible. You don't hotshot guys that the audience doesn't know into high profile angles like this one.
Right, so when Randy Orton pinned Benoit for the WHC he cheated? Didn't seem like it to me.
What happened the next week? He got beatdown gang style and spend the rest of his career trying to recover from how badly his face run was booked.
The difference is that these factions in the past had established stars. the nWo cheated but everyone new Hogan could take on anyone.
The difference here is that these guys will get established through the angle. If for no other reason than they are providing top notch television.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the New Blood
not at all. I seem to remember WCW thinking they were going to get cheered over guys like Sting and DDP though. WWE doesn't seem to be that delusional with this angle.
but allow to help you, the New Blood was packed with minions and a handful of guys meant to get pushed. But because these guys had no build and were targeting established stars no one took them as a serious threat.
Good job that WWE is building the gang as a threat via competant booking then. The fact is that they are being treated in kayfabe as a legit threat, to the point where it is thought of as sensible to get the entire locker room involved to deal with them.
Just like I don't take the NXT Blood as a serious threat either, because nothing about them says they can run with the established stars.
Individually, you'd be right. But as a group, they sure as hell can run with main eventers. If by virtue of attacking them then the've got the numbers edge. Also, strinking when they've got an advantage is heel psychology 101. See Edge cashing in his MitB on Cena after an elimination chamber.
And that's not just Main Eventers, I'd be hard pressed to believe any of these guys could take on Morrison or MVP or Truth.
Fair enough.
Instead I will ask Golberg who had 5 moves, no mic skills and the right look. Now I will ask Taz who had very little charisma but was a great in ring performer?
Outside of the little leagues of ECW, where was Taz a main eventer? In WWE he got exactly nowhere. I've already given you Goldberg.
Apparently it's easier to get over when you're pushed logically no matter what.
It's also easier to get over if you can connect to the crowd. Which Goldberc certainly could. Somehow.
And Bryan has far more personality than Benoit ever did. Go watch his promo against Samoa Joe from ROH when he tells Joe he should be picking coconuts from a tree, it was a better heel promo then anything the WWE's done that didn't involve Jericho or Punk.
I've watched his promo about ECW sleaze. Bored me to tears.
Bret Hart begs to differ, so does early Kurt Angle and Taz.
Taz wasn't over outside of ECW. Kurt Angle has mic skills (and did for as long as I can remember). Bret is one of those rare exceptions to charisma > wrestling skills.
Refer to thinking outside the box and how the angle had much more creative options with 2 credible stars.
refer to not looking for problems and reasons to dislike the angle.
And again learn to think beyond the blindingly obvious.
As soon as you realise that with or without Danielson this is a good angle that would consist of Barrett (and Danielson) and 6 peons. Doesn't matter how you arrange them, but the point is the same. Right now the one big band of rookies is the best arrangement for them.
And once again more proof that the NXT Blood was hastly thrown together when originally Bryan was supposed to break in as a mid-card face against the Miz.
First off, plans change. Second off, I seriously doubt that the NXT Blood was simply thrown together. They may have gone for the whole 'ZOMG SHOCK' beginnig to the angle (which was a very successful beginning to it), but it seems to me that they've planned its course well ahead of time, with the only change to their plans arising from Danielson getting fired. Which wouldn't have changed much this week anyway.
Doesn't make their roles any less pointless. Again you obviously can't see past this angle being used for anything other than pushing Barrett.
Because that is what it's being used for, and what it would be used for with Bryan (with hiom getting the added rub). The rest of the rookies getting over off it is an added bonus.
And it's that one-dimensional thinking that makes angles so much more boring these days, there are so many ways this angle could've gone with Bryan still involved now that he's gone a lot of options are dead.
He'll be back in time for the ending of it. Not to mention that another rookie could lead a breakoff faction. Danielson, wile immensely good in the ring is not indispencible.
PS: Nice job dropping negative rep just because we have differing opinions. I'm not as petty as you so I won't do it back, but seriously grow up.
I didn't drop negative rep because we disagree. I dropped negative rep because I thought you expressed your opinion in a way that annoyed me and made me think less of your inlelligence. Your post also made you look like you were looking for reasons to dislike the angle. It wasn't about your opinion, it was about your expression of it.
