Championship Final: (1) The Rock vs. (3) John Cena

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, May 31, 2012.

?

Who Wins The Tournament?

  1. The Rock

  2. John Cena

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,911
    Likes Received:
    1,516
    Kevin Federline beat John Cena. Jay Leno beat Hulk Hogan.

    Lawrence Taylor headlined WrestleMania XI, Dennis Rodman headlined Bash at the Beach. Twice.

    Mr. T headlined the first WrestleMania PPV. Mike Tyson influenced the result in one of the most defining moments in WrestleMania history.

    I don't think anyone is saying it will be forgotten, I think they are saying that a solitary singles win 8 years removed from his wrestling career shouldn't be considered part of that career. I don't think that's that ridiculous a position.
     
    #76
  2. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    769
    You keep ignoring the simple fact that Cena is worn down by Hogan and Taker. While Rock is going into this pretty fresh, you guys keep acting as if both men are going into this match on the top of their game. Also your trying to argue Cena's theoretical internet wins to Rock's real one's? Really? Neither of these have been known to win a one night tournament so I'm siding with the person who has had the easier matches the whole night.

    I doubt either of these happened on a big of a stage as Wrestlemania.

    LT I can't dispute, but Bash at the Beach isn't as big as Wrestlemania

    The Rock is bigger than Mr. T and Rock/Cena had a bigger build and was overall better.

    I think ignoring every other single rule of the tournament while also trying to sweep Rock's already dominate win over Cena under the rug is ridiculous.
     
    #77
  3. Johnny Scumm

    Johnny Scumm InZayn In The Membrane

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    542
    Likes Received:
    1,027
    Sorry, but since when has "Wearing down" ever been a problem with John Cena? Unless he's sustained an injury in one of those two matches, which hasn't happened or been stated, John Cena NEVER gets "worn down". At any given point, he may act it, but again, at any given point he can break out of it and get back into the fight as if it had just begun.
     
    #78
    Mustang Sally likes this.
  4. FlexAmerican Dynamite

    FlexAmerican Dynamite RIP Cooper's Title Reign

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    769
    It's the simple rule of the tournament. Yes it's wrestling and were supposed to suspend disbelief but Cena's no Hogan. Cena isn't 100% after facing Taker and Hogan and he's enemy territory. To say he's never been tired or just physically drained is ridiculous.
     
    #79
  5. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    863
    So I guess because The Rock isn't a celebrity in this match he would lose. This is bullshit!

    I hate to break it to you guys but I don't recall Cena facing guys that were the likes of Austin, Foley, Undertaker, HHH, ect. While these guys were in their prime no less. Don't give me some "well Austin was the face and so was Cena, Austin always beat Rock so why wouldn't Cena?". Simple answer, Cena ISN'T in Austins league. I like Cena but I can't stand when people compare him to guys like Austin and Hogan, Cena isn't a tenth of the draw those guys were and he isn't a tenth of a draw that The Rock is, heel or face. Note this has nothing to do with any hate of Cena, these are just facts.

    Cena did dominate but he wasn't dominating against legitimate wrestling draws and when he did all of them were older, past their prime and it was THEIR JOB to put over the face of the company, simple as that.

    Did The Rock win at WM28 because he's a celebrity? Probably. But there is a massive difference between The Rock and every other celebrity. The Rock was the only one that was and is a legit draw in wrestling, the fans don't see Rock as a random celebrity and those celebrities don't beat the top guy in the center of the ring clean. There's a big difference between Cena's loss against Federline and The Rock, huge massive difference. No one remembers his Federline match and it was done to enhance a small feud with Morrison back in his Nitro days and it was a random throwaway match on RAW. The Rock won in the main event of the biggest event of the year. All other celebrities weren't beating top guys and if they did they never got the pin. Mr. T didn't pin Piper, Leno didn't pin Hogan, when those celebrities won it still protected the top guy.

    Nonetheless I don't care about WM28 and other celebrity wins, its irrelevant to the point at hand. Cena can't touch The Rock as a draw. This is also a tournament that doesn't have any storylines or other things surrounding it. This is 2 guys in their prime in a KOTR scenario in The Rocks hometown in the finals. Chances are booking would be to send the fans home happy and The Rock would win. He's the more memorable wrestler, he's one of the top 3 draws in wrestling history and Cena will never come close to touching The Rock in the long run. If from a kayfabe perspective The Rock was gonna lose he would lose before the finals that take place in his own hometown.

    I get on paper Cena had a better career, I get on paper he had a better record but that's on paper. In actuality The Rock had the better career, was bigger, better and beat every big name in wrestling he possibly could have.
     
    #80
  6. ThUgNiF1c3nT

    ThUgNiF1c3nT Dark Match Jobber

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    1
    Another reason to vote Rock over Cena is the fact that Rock has beaten the top 2 star of the 80's in Hogan and Flair he has beaten 4 of the top 5 stars of the 90's in Hart, Austin, Taker, and HHH you could throw in foley if you put him that high with the stars of the 90's to round out a perfect 5 out of 5.
     
    #81
  7. The_Sharpshooter

    The_Sharpshooter Always a Contender

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    7
    I know what I'm voting for: I'm voting to get Johnny Scum & Super Dynamite off this page. Out of 9 pages, there replies probably take about 4 pages each. Is Scum getting paid if Cena wins? Just wondering.

    With Jericho going over Harley Race, Punk over Bret, & Cena over Hogan AND Taker to add to this lackluster final, I've put on my "who gives a fuck" hat. This isn't a kayfabe tourney. Its a popularity contest. So I'll pick the guy I like more: the Rock.

    I remember HATING the Rock, wishing that this guy would stop getting shoved down my throat & show some real talented WRESTLERS. But I was a teen then, & my emotions were all over the place. But as I watched him learn his craft & perfect his character, I slowly came around to appreciate the talent that Rock is.

    Now I'm a man & have learned to chill a bit. But about a year ago, the word HATE came to mind when watching Cena. When he won the belt from Mysterio in San Diego, I almost gave up on wrestling. Thank goodness for CM Punk. If Cena was contending/holding the championship right now, I probably wouldn't consider myself a fan anymore. But they took the belt away from him & had him focusing on character development, and just like Rock, I'm slowly starting to appreciate Cena. With the being said, Rock has entertained me way more than Cena, through promo & matches.
     
    #82
  8. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,608
    Likes Received:
    2,741
    No, he would lose because Cena has had the better career, and one match does not account for someone in their prime. As has been mentioned, Cena has been pinned by Kevin Federline while most certainly in his prime, yet he rebounded to beat the (then) undefeated Umaga twice.

    Point being, you have to look at the body of one's prime, not a singular match. And Cena's prime, which he's still in, was better then Rock's.

    .
    He made HHH tap out in the main event of Wrestlemania 22. HHH would go on to have 3 WWE Title reigns following that match, so he was certainly in his prime. He has beaten Undertaker, twice, and pinned an (out of his prime) Foley as well. Edge, Orton, HBK, and HHH are comparable, and Cena's W/L record against all of them is very favorable against all of them, and he definitively won feuds against all men. On his first try, no less.

    How long did it take an in-his prime Rock to win a feud against Austin? Foley? HHH? The answer is "several tries."

    Both were the faces of the company in their respective eras. Austin and Cena, that is. And Cena has been the face of the company longer then Austin was, won more titles, had longer reigns, and a better W/L record, so there's an argument to be made that Cena is a greater superstar then Austin.

    Am I saying that's the case? no. But before someone replies with the typical "hotshotting the titles" garbage that prolifilates arguments against Cena, Austin performed in an Era where the titles were hotshotted even more then they are now.

    Actually, they're your opinion. Saying "Cena isn't in Austin's league", even if it's an opinion shared by 95% of the IWC, doesn't make it fact. It's not tangible, rendering it speculation, not fact.

    I had this argument previously, and I'll restate it: HBK had numerous matches of the year after tapping out to Cena at Wrestlemania 23, so how was he out of his prime? He was also in numerous main events, at Wrestlemania, no less. HHH won three more WWE Titles after tapping to Cena at Wrestlemania 22, and had his second longest title reign in 2009.
    How does that put either man out of their prime, exactly?

    And then there's Edge and Orton, 11 and 9 time champions, respectively. Both men came into their primes with Cena, yet lost feuds to him. Was it "their jobs" to lost to him? Sure. Does that mean anything, kayfabe wise? Nope.

    The feud actually wasn't with Nitro, as Cena never feuded with Nitro. It was to enhance his feud with Umaga, who was the one that laid Cena out, allowing Federline to win. It was also highly promoted, highly hyped, and was done on the New Years Day episode of Raw. It wasn't given a year long Wrestlemania build, but they had "started" their feud at Cyber Sunday, when Federline attacked Cena and cost him the Champion of Champions match. So it had a two month build to it, which isn't bad considering it was "just Kevin Federline" and done simply to advance a feud.

    But he can touch him as wrestler, a champion, overall dominance, and caliber of superstars beaten. There's no star of Cena's era that he doesn't have a winning record against, and hasn't definitely won feuds against.


    Yes, because wrestler's never lose in their hometowns. :rolleyes: Cena lost in Boston at Summerslam 2006, and Edge, who was the face at Unforgiven 2006, lost in his hometown, in a TLC match to Cena, no less. I just listed two, ones relatable to Cena.

    That's simply opinion. The more memorable name? Sure, but his career in Hollywood may have something to do with that. But you have to seperate Rock the wrestler from Rock the movie star when looking at his prime. So to say he's the more memorable "wrestler", especially considering all Cena has done over the past 7 years, is highly debatable.

    Again, opinion. If you're to look at number of reigns, length of reigns, and feuds won, Cena has surpassed Rock.

    That's irrelevant here, as each match has been voted on. Using the "well, he got this far, so no way he loses now" argument is silly. It's a match seperate from the others except for the damage taken, which in this case, is in Rock's favor.

    If those things existed on paper, then they hold true in the wrestling world as well. Why? Because they happened within the wrestling world. Cena was more dominant in his career, had better title reigns, beat the greatest superstars of his era in the same way Rock did his, and won feuds his first go-around with all of them when in his prime. The Rock can't say the same. So while Rock may have beaten those big names, it took him several tries to do so.

    Cena beat every big name wrestler he possibly could have as well, but he did it quicker and in more dominant fashion. He simply had the better career then Rock. While it may not translate to him winning this match, or their match at Wrestlemania, it does translate to him having the superior career over Rock.
     
    #83
    Mustang Sally likes this.
  9. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    863
    The Rock did more for wrestling in 5 years than Cena will do in a life time. It may be opinion, but its an opinion coming from common sense. Also Cena having a better career is irrelevant to the argument. Its not about who had a better career, its about who had a better prime. If it was based on career Flair would probably win every year.

    How so? The Rock won numerous world titles in his prime, was in some of the highest rated segments in wrestling history, was champion during the WWE's most profitable years and like Cena literally beat EVERYBODY he was in the ring with. The Rock became so big in his prime that he was bigger than the WWE. Say what you want about Cena but he isn't bigger than the WWE and chances are wouldn't survive long in the public's eye without it.


    Cena was light years ahead of guys like Edge and Orton when it came to drawing power and being the top guy, which is why he won. He beat HHH and HBK because their roles went from being the top guy to helping out the younger roster. Shawn did have his best matches in his last 5-6 years, I agree but his role was different. All HBK did was put over the younger roster. HHH started to as well often putting over the younger guys on the roster. Did HHH beat the younger roster, sure he did but only to enhance feuds and to raise them to a higher level.

    Lets get something straight. The only feud he DIDN'T win his first time was against Austin. He won his feud against HHH at KOTR 2000 when the feud ended (he lost his first feud BEFORE his prime against HHH that's true), he won his feud against Foley the night after St. Valentines day Massacre, once again on his FIRST time. So during his prime he won his feud against HHH and Foley on his first try as stated. His first match against both guys in his prime he won too. Survivor Series '98 against Mankind and Fully Loaded '99 against HHH. So in his prime the only feud he lost the first time was against Austin and he was the top draw in wrestling history, during its most profitable era, not a downtime era.

    Once again longer doesn't mean anything, this is a person in their prime. Once again if that mattered Lou Thesz or Flair would take the tournament hands down.

    Fair enough but I never made that argument. Its hard to say Cena hotshotted the title when his first reign was 8-9 months and his third reign was over a year.

    Its not an opinion it actually is fact. Just like Bret Hart in the long run isn't in Hogan's league. At the end of the day all that matters is drawing power and in all fairness the drawing power of Hogan, Austin, and The Rock is light years ahead of anyone. I'm not saying he's not in Austin's league when it comes to in ring work, promo's or anything like that. When it comes down to it though its about making money. Cena made a lot of money, he was a better draw than most but not to the extend of Austin that's all I'm saying when I say "he's not in Austin's league".

    Once again it wasn't their roles to be top guys anymore. 9 times out of 10 when HBK was fighting against younger, top guys (like Cena, Angle, ect.) he lost. HHH being champ was different as well. Being champ in '08 wasn't a nod to being the top guy because the top guy was still Cena. Cena had other things going on and wasn't on TV much, not to mention he was still recovering from an injury that was supposed to take 8 months to heal, so the title went to HHH. CM Punk when he got no reaction as a baby face was also champion in '08. HHH may have been champ, but he was in no way a focal point of WWE programming at the time after his feud with Orton ended when he injured his collar bone. The main program was Jericho vs. HBK and Edge vs. The Undertaker.

    When Edge came back HHH dropped the title to him. He held the title in '09 for a few months (from Elimination Chamber to Backlash) because Orton won the Rumble and it was to establish their feud and his upcoming feud with Legacy.

    Both are completely different situations. HBK and HHH were in the twilight of their careers, of course they are gonna put over younger talent like Cena. Even when HHH was champion he was still putting over younger guys in feuds.

    Both men were heels, Cena was the face. Who is to say that Cena wouldn't be facing a face Rock in the tournament which I think would be a good assumption? Cena loses just as much as he wins against big face wrestlers. He lost to HBK and Batista both clean during his prime. Sure, he beat HHH, HBK and Lashley as faces but he's certainly not infallible when it comes to face vs. face match ups.

    The Rock's only losing record is against Austin. He has winning records against everyone else he feuded with. Austin as a draw was greater than everyone. Cena isn't Austin, he's not greater than Austin, he probably never will be.

    I never said hometown guys didn't lose. Not once did I say that. But I will say Cena did lose to a hometown guy at WM28.


    The Rock was a household name before he went to Hollywood. If you don't watch wrestling you probably don't know who Cena is. Even people who didn't watch wrestling in the late 90's were very aware of who The Rock was, that's why he hosted SNL over every other superstar before he ever made a cameo in a movie let alone starred in one. I'm not looking at The Rock as a Hollywood star, never have, I'm looking at Rock the wrestler during his prime, nothing more, nothing less. The SNL example was to show just how big The Rock was in mainstream.

    Yeah and if you look at sheer dominance and feuds won Ultimate Warrior trumps Cena yet he still lost to Cena earlier in the tournament. There's more to wrestling than title reigns and feuds won, a lot more. To constantly use that is not an accurate measurement of greatness. Drawing power on the other hand is.

    Once again the only person that it took The Rock more than once to beat in his prime was Austin, both in feuds and matches. He beat Foley first in his prime, he beat HHH first in his prime.

    Cena took numerous tries to beat Batista in all fairness. Batista won their first feud and their first 2 matches against each other.

    The Rock also beat every big name wrestler put in front of him as well. Most matches Cena didn't dominate, he got whipped most of the time to pull out the victory from coming behind as that's his match style. I would also argue that he had a better career than The Rock because he didn't.

    The Rock in 5 years did more for wrestling than almost any wrestler in history, including Cena. He brought tons of fan's into wrestling and helped sustain those fans even when Austin was gone. He was in the highest rated segment RAW history and 2nd overall (1st being Hogan vs. Andre in '88 on the Main Event) and through his short career became bigger than the business itself. The Rock was in 5 consecutive Main Event matches at Wrestlemania (his 3 with Austin, his fatal 4 way and his Hogan match) and 6 overall. The only reason that streak stopped was because he left.

    My point in all of this is simple. When it comes to career what's more important quality or quantity? I would say quality wise The Rock has had a better career. Of course that's just opinion.

    It may be opinion but chances are if he stuck around and didn't go to Hollywood Cena may have never become the top guy at all and if The Rock and Lesnar stuck around Cena would never have been a top guy. Do I know that? No. Is it a very good possibility? Yes. A much better possibility than Cena being the top guy with The Rock and Lesnar around.
     
    #84
    LSN80 likes this.
  10. ThUgNiF1c3nT

    ThUgNiF1c3nT Dark Match Jobber

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    1
    Let the record show against HHH, The Rock was 13-9 thats only singles matches on Raw, Smackdown and PPV's not including House Shows. Against Foley in singles matches The Rock is 7-6. Against Undertaker he is 3-3. Against Angle he is 8-5. Against Jericho he is 5-3. His only losing record is against Austin at 3-7. Mind you these are all single match records against the Stars of the Attitude Era. plus his 2-0 record against hogan.
     
    #85
  11. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,608
    Likes Received:
    2,741
    How is that an opinion coming from common sense? Rock did more for wrestling by getting to the top...and then leaving? Im not faulting him there, but it's not an argument in his favor. His accomplishments may have surpassed Cena had he stayed, but he didn't, so we only have the body of work that he gave us. And that body simply isn't as impressive as John Cena's. Further, when I say career, I'm equating it to prime, because I'm referring to 2005-now with regards to Cena. In that time, Cena has won more championships, has had better reigns, and more dominant ones. Rock was part of an era that revolutionized the business, yes, but it didn't last.

    Cena has done far more for wrestling then Rock has by staying with the business longer, getting stars over, and being an ambassador for the company. This isn't a knock on Rock, it's simply putting over Cena.

    You can't compare ratings using "the highest in wrestling history." If you were to simply do that, then you might as well disqualify anyone from the tournament who wrestled before TV. Profitable has nothing to do with career success from an in-ring standpoint, and while Rock may have beaten everyone from his era in the same way Cena has his, Rock lost far more feuds, had shorter title reigns, and far less dominant reigns as well.

    And you have to be kidding me that Cena isn't bigger then the WWE. He owes what he's gotten due to his time in WWE, but guess what? So does Rock. "Nobodies" outside of the WWE don't present awards and Grand Marshalls Bowl Games.

    You realize Orton won his first World Title before Orton did, correct? And Cena being ahead of those guys is an argument for him, you realize that, correct? If Rock was truly far ahead in terms of drawing power, with eras being relative, he would have had similar success. But he simply didn't. In swapping the titles, he swapped victories with the stars of his era. Cena may have lost to the stars of his era, but it wasn't swapping victories. And outside of Punk, what feuds to men in his prime has Cena lost?

    So HHH winning 3 WWE Titles, including his second longest reign, after Cena beat him at Wrestlemania 22 equates to him transitioning from a top spot? I don't follow that logic.

    Yet Cena was one of the few during the second half of HBK's career to beat him clean. And how many of those that did get a clean victory over HBK made him submit? There's Cena, Kurt Angle....and?
    And how many feuds did he LOSE against those men? He lost feuds to Angle, HHH, Austin(twice), and Jericho, to name a few, during his prime. How many people has Cena ultimately lost feuds with while in his prime? CM Punk is the only real name that springs to mind as someone who beat Cena in a feud. The fact remains, Rock against the top wrestlers of his generation were men that he traded feuds with, and swapped titles back and forth with. He never had a definitive title reign where he beat everyone in the company on the way through the way Cena did.

    .
    Cena's prime has been longer then Austin's, or Rock's. Cena entered his prime in 2005 and is still in it. He won three WWE Titles last year, had the match of the year with CM Punk, and possibly the MOTY with Brock Lesnar this year.

    No, it's an opinion, and nothing more. Seeing how Cena's career is far from over, it's hard to say that Cena isn't/won't be in Austin's league when we look back ten years. Cena has had more runs then Austin with the title as well, longer runs, and more dominating ones as well.

    But this is about Cena and Rock. Not Austin and Cena, or Hart and Hogan. Hart and Hogan's careers are over, so you can definitively compare and contrast now. But there are things Cena has done better then Austin, as mentioned above, that allow for the argument that Cena is in Austin's league.

    No, drawing power isn't the only thing that matters, there's this thing called "accomplishments in one's prime" that matters, and Cena's accomplishments in his prime are more substantial then Rock's.


    He lost his feud with Cena, but he didn't lose his feud with Angle. He tapped at Mania 21, beat Angle at Judgment Day, then wrestled to a tie in their IronMan match on Raw. How is that him losing that feud? Yes, HBK put over alot of talent, but the clean victory against HBK in a non-gimmick match was rare. Even more rare? A submission victory over HBK in the main event of Wrestlemania, something even the 20-0 Undertaker couldn't achieve.
    The top guy is still John Cena, but being WWE Champion isn't a nod to CM Punk? And you do realize that one of his victories during his reign(HHH's) was over Cena, correct?

    The only times Cena missed TV was during his injuries in his prime. They went with HHH as champion when HHH won the Fatal Four Way Elimination Match that included Cena. That kicked off HHH's most dominant title reign, he beat the face of the company in Cena,(who Cena would later make tap out at EC 2010 and then pin again on Raw), so how again is that not pushing HHH as a top guy?

    What younger guys, other then Cena and Batista, did HHH truly put over post-2005? He beat Jeff Hardy at 2 or 3 straight PPV's, beat Randy Orton at 2 straight PPV's, and only lost the title on a fluke. He then beat Orton at the next Wrestlemania, and only lost the title to him in a six-man tag match.

    And what you're conveniently leaving out here? All of these things happened AFTER Cena made him tap out at Wrestlemania 22, pinned him clean at Backlash the next month, and pinned him again on Raw. HHH had plenty of victories over the top stars, and two title reigns of decent length. He was hardly in the twilight of his career, no more then Cena is now.

    Since the logic of judging a man in his prime is the basis, it's a fair assumption that Cena would be a face as well, if for no other reason then Cena has been a face during his entire prime. And John Cena's clean losses as a face during his prime have been few and far between.

    In matches that truly meant very little. When he faced them with the title on the line, and in closing out feuds, he beat both men. Yes, Batista was a heel when they feuded again, but Cena still owned 4 consecutive victories over him, 3 in title matches. HBK did beat him in a non-title match, but lost the two title matches sandwhiched in-between.

    And men where Cena has had more then one match with, who does he have a losing record against? Not HHH, not HBK, not Orton, not Edge, and not Punk. And as stated earlier, there are things Cena has on Austin, and he's been booked stronger(longer reigns, more runs) then Austin as well. If Cena has been booked stronger then Austin, why wouldn't he be booked stronger then Rock, who does have a losing record against Austin?

    Logically, it would suggest that Cena would be booked over Rock.

    Returning celebrity Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson beat John Cena in his hometown. Not "in his prime" Rock.

    I think you'ld be quite surprised by this. Cena has been interviewed numerous times on ESPN, Larry King, he's Grand Marshalled parades, done commercials, was in several movies(The Marine, 12 Rounds) that were nationwide in theatres, so to suggest that Cena isn't a household name is silly.
    It's not the only argument that Im using, but to deny how one performs in their prime doesn't matter is asinine. Warrior was never able to sustain dominance or feuds the way Cena has, as his time on top was very short. I've been arguing the body of Cena's career, which includes the elevation of stars such as Orton, Punk, and Edge, all who had drifted between upper-mid and main event before Cena, and were full-time main event after.

    One match hardly constitutes a feud. The true feud that Cena had against Batista was one that went more then one match, and Cena only lost his second match against a fresh Batista after just competing in and winning a 45 minute EC match. He then won the next four matches against Batista, making him tap out, won the LMS match, and made Batista quit. That feud was a continuation of their feud from 2008, which was cut short when Cena broke his neck.

    A feud that Cena definitively won, as he has every feud during his prime, save CM Punk. A man whom, despite that, still has a losing record against John Cena.

    I'm assuming that you're saying that you would argue that he hasn't had a better career then Rock. But based on what? Drawing power? You can't fault Cena for the era that he's in, especially since the Chris Benoit tradgedy turned off a lot of viewers. And the fact remains that Cena is the top draw going today(and it's not close), and it shows in the number of reigns, his place on the card(main eventing EVERY PPV, title match or no) and, once again, the length of his reigns. His accomplishments and the way he's been booked suggest that he would very much so go over Rock in a match between both in their primes.

    Cena's elevated more stars, has been the better ambassador for the sport, and has carried the company during the last 7 years. Rock did alot of good for the industry as well, no doubt. But to suggest he's done more then the man who's carried the company on his back for 7 years? Quite the stretch.

    I can live with everything else you're saying, but to suggest that Cena wouldn't be "the guy" is simply asinine. Cena would have been elevated to the spot he's in irregardless simply due to the fact of his tireless work ethic, undeniable charisma, and his in-ring skills.

    The fact of the matter is this: Both men have done alot, and their contributions to the wrestling industry simply can't be denied. But I look at a matchup like this one, prime vs prime, and believe that Cena would be booked to win this very type of matchup. Cena had consistency in winning main event matches where Rock simply has not, and had a great deal of trouble against Austin, Undertaker, Jericho, Foley, Angle and HHH. The kind of difficulties Cena simply hasn't had against the top stars from his era. The way both men were booked indicates that John Cena would win this match.
     
    #86
  12. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    789
    This is quite simple. Bigger Star? Rock. Better on the mic? Rock. Better in the ring? Probably a push. Have they ever fought before? Funny you ask. Just a few months ago a prime John Cena in the biggest match of his career, at the biggest ppv, in the main event, lost completely clean to The Rock who was having his first singles match in nearly 9 years.

    You can make an argument for Cena but it's bound to be an awful one.
     
    #87
  13. Daniel

    Daniel Of Ace Stevens fame.

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    775
    Likes Received:
    652
    The "Rock beat Cena" argument is a pretty bad one, if you actually analyse it properly.

    There's a difference between booking a tournament (so, um, this) and booking for television (so, um, that). The Rock went over Cena at WrestleMania because Cena's a regular worker. WWE realised that Cena could easily bounce back from such a loss because he's always on TV and could regain his momentum like that. Rock isn't, and therefore couldn't.

    But this is a tournament. We don't have to be concerned with the aftermath and shit. It's a one-off deal to crown the greater professional wrestler. Now if you think that's The Rock, I'm not arguing with you. A strong argument could be made for him, as could one for Cena.

    My point, however, is that the match in April - and the hypothetical match here - are under completely different circumstances. Using WrestleMania as justification for Rock going over isn't particularly smart.
     
    #88
    LSN80 likes this.
  14. ThUgNiF1c3nT

    ThUgNiF1c3nT Dark Match Jobber

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    1
    LSN80 its funny how you talk about The Rock losing feud's when it comes to going 1v1 he has more wins than losses against all the stars of the attitude era except Austin. As a matter of fact I'm going to go back and tally up all the matches against with The Rock and the stars of the Atitude era and see who came out on top more.
     
    #89
  15. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    99
    The right guy is going to win. I have no idea how anyone can, with a straight face, say that Cena has had a better career than the Rock. They know that he's the face of the company while the company is in a down period, right? They know he doesn't control the crowd's reaction to him, which is something the Rock excelled at: when he wanted you to cheer, you cheered; when he wanted you to boo, you booed. How has Cena had a better career? By what definition? Who will be more remembered 25 years from now? The Rock, and it's not close.
     
    #90
  16. ThUgNiF1c3nT

    ThUgNiF1c3nT Dark Match Jobber

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Rock's overall record vs The Undertaker is 13-9. Against Foley he is 8-7. Against Angle he is 31-15. Against Jericho 13-7. Against HHH he is 31-23. Against Austin his only losing record against the stars of the 90's he is 7-14. These include singles, tag, triple threat, and fatal 4 way or and any other match type. So the only true feud The Rock lozt was against Austin. He was normally wiping the floor with HHH when they fought Angle was his practice dummy, Jericho started bating the Rock afterthe Rock began to put him over, He won his feuds againt Undertaker, and Foley. The Rock was not losing qas much as you think.
     
    #91
    Natural Selection likes this.
  17. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    863
    The Rock did more for wrestling by drawing in more fans than Cena, many of those fans that continue to watch WWE today. If he brings the WWE mad publicity, puts asses in seats, brings viewers to the show and is the face of the WWE during its most popular and profitable year than yes The Rock did a ton for wrestling. Just by sticking around doesn't equate to doing more for the business, if that was the case Johnny Rodz has done more for wrestling than almost anybody. If lengthy, better, and more dominant title reigns equate to being better than Sammartino is hands down the greatest wrestler in WWE bar none.

    All Cena did that The Rock didn't was stick around longer than The Rock. Rock put over many different stars such as Triple H, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar and Goldberg just to name a few and please don't use the argument that 3 out of 4 guys left because that has nothing to do with what The Rock did for those guys. He was a great ambassador for the WWE when he was full time, much like Cena. To use your words, its not a knock on Cena, its simply putting over Rock.

    Profitable often correlates from an in-ring standpoint, The Rock had a massively successfully career while he was there. In less than 5 years The Rock already had more title reigns than Hogan, the previous record holder. Also back in The Rocks era nobody had a long title reign. In Cena's era many have had lengthy title runs such as Orton, Batista (who had a huge reign before he got injured), Triple H, and The Miz. Its not the same thing.

    Both guys got noticed because of WWE but The Rock survived and flourished without the WWE. I'm not saying Cena can't but the only movies I see Cena in are WWE films where they simply hand the roles over to their own stars, he certainly didn't earn the roles.

    Also The Miz has presented many awards, been on late night TV shows and has done everything Cena has outside the WWE sans Grand Marshall. With that said I wouldn't say The Miz was a draw or is bigger than wrestling and I have my doubts that either guy could survive in pop culture without WWE. What's Cena gonna do? Put out a rap album with no publicity? What's Miz gonna do? Be on another reality show? What's The Rock gonna do? Star in multiple movies that gross over $100 million dollars.

    Even when Orton won his first title it was quite clear they were sold on Cena being the new face of WWE. Cena had a dominant US title run that was far more memorable than Orton's 1 month title run where he was basically Triple H's bitch. Also if Cena lost 12 world titles (1 being a forfeit) then he had to be swapping victories against some people (Edge and Orton for example).


    After HHH finished his feud with Orton he was pushed to the background as champion and didn't do much as champion, even if it was his second longest reign. It may have been his second longest, but it was one of his least memorable. After his Orton feud I am honestly drawing a blank his entire run. All I remember from June '08 - November '08 was his match against Jeff Hardy at No Mercy (where even though Hardy lost he was MASSIVELY but over by Triple H) and losing the title in one of the worst matches I've ever seen. It was a long, drawn out, utterly boring title reign that was hugely eclipsed by The like of HBK vs. Jericho and Edge vs. Undertaker. Hell CM Punk's title reign was more memorable that year than Triple H's was.

    Not true at all. Many people beat HBK clean during his title run. Lets go through as many as I can remember of the top of my head, no research:

    Cena
    Angle
    HHH
    Benoit
    Jericho
    The Undertaker
    Legacy (LEGACY for god sakes)
    Edge
    Orton

    That literally took me 30 seconds to think of all those guys. Losing clean pinfall or submission is one in the same, its still a clean loss. Does it matter if Bret beat Shawn by Sharpshooter or pinfall? Not really no and yes Bret did beat HBK clean by both methods.

    He lost 1 match to Angle but won the feud at No Way Out, a month before Wrestlemania, hardly losing a feud. He lost his feud to Triple H before his prime and he lost his feud to Jericho because Hogan came back. Everyone lost to Austin, he lost to nobody in his prime when it came to feuding unless he was leaving or was injured. The Rock only lost to circumstance, not because he was lesser. Also you can't use the definitive title reign because during that era only 4 people had title reigns that lasted more than 2 months. Austin, Triple H, Angle and who was that last guy? Oh yeah, the Rock and his title reign in 2000 was in fact the LONGEST reign of that era which was 119 days. So during the WWE's most profitable era, The Rock had the longest and most dominant title reign.


    And The Rock had amazing feuds with Austin, The Rock, and Triple H, all of which stand the test of time. Also had match of the year at Royal Rumble '99 and Wrestlemania X8.

    Technically I didn't say Cena wouldn't I said chances are he wouldn't. Not that Cena isn't great, but those are big shoes to fill to be in Austin's league, shoes that in my opinion (just opinion) only Hogan and The Rock have come close to filling and you could even argue The Rock made bigger shoes than Austin.

    Even though its irrelevant to the argument what exactly has Cena done better than Austin?

    Never said drawing power is only thing that matters but its definitely the thing that matters the most. That can't be disputed. Also when it comes down to it stuff like title reigns and title reign lengths don't matter that much in the long run, its nice to have on a resume but it doesn't matter when it comes to who had the better career. Do you think Jerry Lawler (a 23 time world champion and has more titles than anyone) is greater than someone like Austin, Hogan, The Rock or even Cena?

    Like I said what's the big difference between a clean tap out win and a clean pinfall win? Both establish your dominance over your opponent. Also Wrestlemania wins trump everything else because its Wrestlemania. For the most part your average fan doesn't care about matches on RAW, they care about what happens at Wrestlemania, much like most people only cares about who wins the Superbowl, not who wins the AFC or NFC title games.

    Its a nod yes but it doesn't establish their dominance over that person or makes them better. In all fairness, HHH lost to the Brooklyn Brawler, that's how much wins and losses mean right there in the long run.

    After HHH won that title match and his feud with Orton he did basically nothing as champion. He may have held the title for his second longest reign but was that title reign memorable? Foley's short title reigns in early '99 were more memorable than Triple H's second longest reign by far.

    Putting guys over and beating them are 2 entirely different things. You can put over a wrestler without beating them. He did put over Jeff Hardy, see his match against Triple H at No Mercy '08, he put him over big time. Bret Hart put over Austin in defeat. Triple H put over a lot of guys, whether he was winning or losing. The guy even put over guys like Rhodes, Dibiase and Edge in victory. You don't need to lose to put someone over.

    As a face The Rock almost always won feuds as a face when it came to closing out feuds. As a face in his prime he only ever lost as a face if he was leaving or because he was doing other things that were much more important such as facing Hogan. Wrestlemania X8 before Hogan came back was built towards Triple H's return and becoming champ against Jericho, the guy who helped put him out of commission kayfabe wise. They kept the title on Jericho so he could lose to Triple H and chose The Rock (over Austin I might add) to go over and defeat Hulk Hogan, the Babe Ruth of wrestling. The Rock losing feuds as a face were always due to circumstance. Cena losing to Punk however WASN'T due to circumstance. It was done to make CM Punk a top guy.


    Once again, different circumstances made Cena being booked stronger than Austin and even with those circumstances that greatly favor Cena I don't think he did in fact get booked stronger. Austin was consistently in the main event, dominated RAW every week doing humiliating things to Mr. McMahon, beat The Undertaker clean, his first clean loss since The Ultimate Warrior (something BTW Cena has NEVER done) and Austin's face was seen literally everywhere. Austin closed out EVERY PPV from No Way out of Texas '98 - No Mercy '99 (21 straight PPV's) and that ended because he got injured. Austin comes back, and he closes out every PPV AGAIN from Survivor Series 2000 - Invasion 2001 (9 straight PPV's). Has Cena ever main evented 21 Straight PPV's?

    Very true, I've said that numerous times.

    Not really no. Once again, is The Miz a household name? Outside of being Grand Marshall what has Cena done that The Miz hasn't done that was outside WWE scope (remember his movies don't count because they were WWE)? Also, I said Cena isn't bigger than the business like The Rock. Like The Rock got noticed because of the business but unlike The Rock he hasn't survived without it. The Rock simply surviving outside the WWE scope for as long as he has is absolute proof he's bigger than wrestling. Could Cena do that? Possibly. I doubt it but possibly.

    I never denied how Cena performs in his prime, I deny that he had a better prime than The Rock, that's all. I also deny he would win this match. I would never deny Cena's success as its a great disservice to one of the hardest workers the WWE has ever had.

    Ok fair enough but once again name me one feud The Rock lost, as a face that wasn't due to simple circumstance of him leaving for a movie or going on to better things that eclipse who he's feuding (like losing to Jericho to face Hogan)?

    The ratings, buys and profit drop and people being turned off from WWE and wrestling directly correlated with Austin and Rock leaving A LOT more than the Benoit tragedy. The WWE bounced back pretty good since Benoit, they never bounced back from Austin and Rock leaving.

    It's not at all a stretch considering how much The Rock did between the years of '98-'02 which included drawing a but load of money to such an extent Vince probably had to build a Scrooge McDuck like Money bin so he could swim through it. Vince was worth over a billion dollars when Rock was face and that was before Vince had only his wrestling product to generate revenue, not all his other ventures currently going on such as WWE studios and his WWE network. Even with all those extra divisions under WWE Vince doesn't make nearly as much as he once did, which means WWE doesn't make as much as they once did.

    Also, don't think its a stretch to say Rock brought much more mainstream attention to WWE than Cena ever did. The Rock has done so much for WWE that he deserves his own wing when they actually build a physical HOF.

    Lots of guys have a tireless work ethic, had great charisma, had great in ring skills and never made it to top guy status (such as Mr. Perfect or Roddy Piper). I'm not knocking Cena but his spot as "the guy" had a hell of a lot to do with circumstance and people leaving. Cena basically got Lesnar's spot when Lesnar left, once again not a knock, just an observation, you need luck to succeed. The Rock was in a much more hostile situation when he became huge and had a lot more competition to fight against, surely you can agree that Cena never had to compete with someone as big as Austin.


    I'm looking at the same thing you are but the thing is we see it differently. I don't think Cena would be booked to win this type of match up. I think in such a tournament they would give it to a prime Rock because he's a bigger star and bigger draw, at least that's how I see it.

    I'm not even saying your point of view is wrong, its just different and we see the situation differently, but in all fairness I don't think I'm wrong either.
    We both have logic behind our posts and honestly LSN I like you, I respect your posting abilities and you aren't talking out of your ass. I don't agree with saying Cena would beat Rock but at least you come with your guns loaded and have actual reason behind that. Although it doesn't mean much for what its worth I'll give you that.
     
    #92
    IHW likes this.
  18. UltimateHitman

    UltimateHitman Old School Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    165
    I've been reading this simply because I've been intrigued by the debates. But there is one thing that I have not seen mentioned (or maybe it has, I made it to page 7 before I stopped looking for it).

    The people that are voting for Rock are NOT voting for "prime" Rock. If we're looking at people IN THEIR PRIME, then WM28 hasn't happened yet.

    Also, Rock's status as a legend and a Hollywood success hasn't happened either. What people are arguing is irrelevant for an IN HIS PRIME Rock.

    Rock, in his prime, is not this "untouchable legend" that people are arguing for. Rock, in his prime, has not achieved this status that you give him credit for. That is "legend, past his prime, Hollywood actor" Rock. Not prime Rock.

    And it's not a ridiculous notion to mention the celebrity win angle. Why was Rock brought back? Because he's been gaining momentum in his acting career and Vince wanted some outside exposure. That's why he was booked to win, too, because his ego and his career as a Hollywood action star may hae been hurt and he wouldn't sign off on passing the torch.

    None of these reasons are enough to convince me that "prime" Rock could beat "prime" Cena. "Writing his own contract and terms because he's an in demand Hollywood actor" Rock beat Cena because of business matters, not a "wrestler" Rock against a "wrestler" Cena.

    People need to realize what they're voting for, and also realize their arguments are hypocritical by mentioning "prime" Rock and then arguing for "already left and became an actor" Rock.

    Two different Rocks in both a wrestling and a come back strictly for business sense.

    In other words, there is no reason why Cena could not beat Rock in this tournament, if even just for the simple matter that I remember prime Rock losing more than prime Cena.
     
    #93
  19. Mr. Book This Section

    Mr. Book This Section Getting Noticed By Management

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2010
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    50
    John Cena is better than Rock at everything..

    - Better on mic.
    - Better wrestler
    - Better at eating chips and more.

    Vote - John Cena.

    You would have to be a stupid virgin who is currently dressed as a member of the opposite sex to vote for Rock.
     
    #94
  20. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    863
    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, everything about this post is wrong, just plain wrong.

    Cena isn't better on the mic, at most Cena is equal as a wrestler to The Rock and no way he's better than eating chips, have you seen Dwayne eat? It's like watching a lion devouring a zebra.

    Lastly, I'm not a virgin, don't dress a girl and voted for The Rock. Why? Because he is simply BETTER than Cena. Better draw, better on mic, more entertaining and did it facing much stiffer competition than Cena did during his prime. I would love to see how Cena would fare facing the likes of Austin, Foley, HHH and Lesnar on a regular basis, while all 3 were in their prime no less. If that happened I guarantee Cena wouldn't have been nearly as dominant as he is now.
     
    #95
  21. UltimateHitman

    UltimateHitman Old School Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    165
    To answer a question I've seen a few times. How would Cena fare against the ME competition from Rock's era?

    I would say just fine. Number one, he would be booked according to that era. This would not be "PG John", this would, I would wager, be "Thuganomics, hard ass John". And, if you go back and listen to those scathing raps the guy did, allowing the crowd to finish his obsenities at the end, etc. etc. you would realize that Cena would do just fine in the "Attitude Era" (since he technically WAS a part of it, albeit the end of it).

    Cena, as the heel rapper, was actually more "edgy" than Rock ever was. All Rock did was throw a few "candy asses" around and say bitch once in a while. Sure it was funny and all, but compare that to some of the shit Cena said in his raps. It's the equivalent of Imus vs. Howard Stern.

    If Cena would have been rapping at the time of Rock/Austin/Mankind/HHH/etc., even the "attitude" crowd would be pulling a Ron Simmons "DAMN!"
     
    #96
  22. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,974
    Likes Received:
    863
    Personally I think Cena would be fine as well. My question is though would Cena be as dominant as he is now? Would he have bee the face of the company over Austin and The Rock?

    Personally I don't think Cena would be as dominant. I could see him in the main event but he wouldn't have been nearly as dominant dealing with the likes of Rock, Foley, Austin and HHH, not by a long shot. I'm sure he would have been facing these guys but I have my doubts he would overcome these guys to become the face of the WWE in that era.
     
    #97
  23. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    99
    Rock's promos were filled with sexual innuendo. Cena's Thuganomics character just doesn't compare in "edginess".

    Ask yourselves this question, if Cena was there in the Attitude Era, would he have a higher position in the company than the Rock did? The answer is "Of course not, are you high?" Vote Rocky.
     
    #98
  24. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    5,099
    Likes Received:
    3,003
    The Rock is just simply better than John Cena.

    Better in the ring, better move set, better as a heel, better as a face, bigger draw, bigger name, better movies, better on the mic. He is the only pick in this match.

    Cena is good, no denying that. He is undoubtably the biggest name in the business right now, but he has so little competition. Since Cena has become the man in WWE, Undertaker and Triple H have become part-timers, Batista has left, Angle has left, Edge has retired and WWE is in a period of transition with very few bona-fide stars.

    When The Rock was on top, and believe me other than Austin he was the biggest star there was, he had to compete with many stars on the rise- Triple H, Kurt Angle, Jericho, plus others in their prime like Undertaker, Kane, Big Show and even Mankind. Far more competition for Rocky.

    He electrified millions, got them hanging on his every word, made a simple elbow drop into the most electrifying move in the business, created millions....and millions....of catchphrases that people still love today, had some world class matches and was one of the key figures in WWE destroying WCW. Cena has been the top guy while WWE has been losing fans to UFC.

    And the final point, which everyone knows...a rusty, past his prime Rock vs an in-prime Cena at this years 'Mania? Who won? The Great One.

    Vote Rock
     
    #99
    LSN80 likes this.
  25. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,651
    Likes Received:
    985
    The Rock...


    Ah my pick.

    The departed poster known as Talon beat me to a campaign HQ for this man, because simply put, when this man started boasting his credentials heading into Mania vs Cena, they were impressive. When he beat Cena, he was a shoe-in for this internet bingo hall.


    The Rock was a top draw. Was and STILL is synonymous with the wrestling world (not to mention being a movie box office draw now). His peak was shortlived though but he never stopped being a draw. The Rock's legacy is one to be marvelled at, and now we have this match.


    He just beat the man as a part-timer and people can argue all they want that Cena's peak is gone.

    No it hasn't.

    Cena is still in his peak, there are just newer faces as the top names around him.

    The Rock has beaten the biggest draw on the biggest show.



    I don't have anymore to say.
     
    #100
    Danger Burger likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"