Miami Region, Sixth Round: (1) The Rock vs. (4) Lou Thesz

[Con T.]

I read it; it comes across as apologist tripe. I also find it hilarious that you attribute Rock's success to Stone Cold and the nWo, especially considering

1. The Rock did his best business, and the best business the WWE has ever done, during a period Stone Cold was out with neck surgery.

2. WCW was on it's dying legs when Rock did his best business; by the time Rock had done what he did, the nWo had become Jeff Jarrett, Ron and Don Harris, and Kevin Nash

.... Ooh.

Look, Rock did what he did because of how great of a draw he is; you can sit here and argue that he had the backing of the WWE, but then you'd have to answer why they haven't done business like that when he left.

And, for that matter, he's still a draw; he and Cena just broke the record for Wrestlemania buys.


I get it Thesz was a huge draw; The Rock's a bigger one. And your attempt to marginalize this makes you sound more like a fool than you know.


And again, wrestling's all about drawing money. Your attempt to try to split the two... Well, you can see where I'm going here

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I don't understand this IWC myth that the Rock came back because he needed the WWE. I'd best describe that as wishful thinking by those determined to continue disliking him. While I use to kind of buy into the "Rock turned his back on wrestling" argument, I have since seen the folly in that. If you can respect his transition, then you have to respect the process that led to the success.

So why did he come back then? He's a rich man, it can't be the money. Maybe it's all the friends that he has there... . Must be his love for the industry then... a love that saw two pre-taped appearances in 7 years (not including the induction of his dad and grandfather to the HoF and how could he turn that down?).

Dwayne Johnson dropped 'The Rock' moniker to get more serious roles. When these attempts at being a serious thespian failed, he returned to what did bring the success (namely, playing The Rock). What better way to accentuate this than by returning to where that character was created?

Any belief I had in that was most likely residual Rock dislike from when he (correctly) took Austin's spot.

Erm... no. If I dislike Rock for ignoring the industry once he left, why would I love a man who walked out on it a number of times because he didn't like how he was being booked?

Rock has given a lot to prowrestling and I have tired of this idea that he is selfish while others aren't, such as that spotlight hog Cena. Why should I believe Cena isn't a selfish glory hog? But but shattered dreams it is the booking, it couldn't possibly be the guy that visits those kids in the hospital. If it is the booking when Cena wins, then it should be the booking when the Rock wins (like at WM). If you have an issue with what happened at WM take it up with creative. Anyone that doesn't think the Rock still put Cena and the WWE over is being extremely shortsighted. The fact that you care so much that Cena lost is the first clue. If I am looking for disrespect, I am going to start with the comments Cena made about Rock.

Have you me confused with Sly? While I don't share the hatred many have for Cena, the SuperCena shtick does piss me off on occasion.

As for it being the booking, that's something neither of us can know SD. However, I'd be amazed if Rock didn't have some pretty major creative control. You've pointed out yourself about Cena's comments, Trips has also had his share of digs at the Great One. Throw in that it was in his own backyard and is it a stretch to believe that he was always winning? It would really accentuate his Rockiness heading in GI Joe 2.

Lest you be swayed by this absolute moron, Fitfinlay4life, who is bantering about the old Rock sold out argument, I wrote up a nice little argument. Unfortunately, someone that knows more about wrestling than this fool said it first, so I'm going to post it here, feel free to skip to 3:58, if you want to avoid a kinda pointless story, and feel free to not judge it just because it's a guy who people dislike, for some reason I still don't get

[YOUTUBE]n_JXNcbpmRs[/YouTube]

Hmmm, have you and I butted heads at some stage, sir? You appear to have some deep seeded resentment going on.

Hate to point this out to you, but Mr Meltzer's opinion is exactly that - an opinion, just like mine. Does John Cena and Triple H's opinions on the Rock hold more weight than Dave's? I have followed wrestling for well over 30 years and I have been a massive movie buff for almost as long, I know exactly how good the PR is to Rock now that he has returned to action movies. Plus, with their emphasis on the kids at present, this is bound to be a feather in his cap for the Disney style shows as well.

I've already said that my issue with Rock wasn't his move into Hollywood, it was that he completely vanished from the world that got him there. A world were he was held in such high esteem that they named a programme after him. They have always had a fondness for celebrity endorsement and yet, Rock was conspicuous by his absence.

Now, I won't be voting, but I will say this; if you're that petty because Rock left that you won't vote for him, that says a lot more about your petulance than anything else, old chap. If you legitimately think Thesz is better, great; frankly, I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that he is. But of you're still butthurt because the Rock got a better job, do me a favor; look in the mirror, accept that you take this shit way too personally for your own good, take a step back, and think about Rock the wrestler. Lou Thesz won't win this match because he's a better guy than The Rock; he'll win this match of he's actually better

'Old chap'? I'm from Norn Iron, not England, so 'fella' will suffice.

Kayfabe, both guys can be argued to win here. Draw wise, Thesz pulled them in for decades without massive television or cinematic assistance - I think that could be called either way too.

For the last time, I've no issue with him leaving for Hollywood, it's my right to not like him forgetting how he got there.

Finally, if it's me taking things too personally, ask yourself this - who is firing out the personal insults?

 

[ThUgNiF1c3nT]

This has to be on of the saddest things I've ever read from most of you people hating on a man because he left the business on top of his game having been named one of the greatest of all time while being on top for only 4years for a better job. You get mad because he didn't want to end up like SCSA, HBK, Undertaker, and HHH with nagging injuries that they will have to deal with the rest of the life. In 4 years he became on of the biggest draws behind Hogan and Austin. Thesz is a better wrestler and technician than the rock but that's it trick is more popular better on the mic and a better business man. The Rock has a tendency of beating the G.O.A.T.S. ie. Hogan, SCSA, Angle, Taker, HHH, Benoit and Foley.

 

[shattered dreams]

So why did he come back then? He's a rich man, it can't be the money. Maybe it's all the friends that he has there... . Must be his love for the industry then... a love that saw two pre-taped appearances in 7 years (not including the induction of his dad and grandfather to the HoF and how could he turn that down?).

Dwayne Johnson dropped 'The Rock' moniker to get more serious roles. When these attempts at being a serious thespian failed, he returned to what did bring the success (namely, playing The Rock). What better way to accentuate this than by returning to where that character was created?

Serious thespian? Give me a break. He wanted to be an action hero, one that is often comedic, sounds a lot like he was always trying to be the Rock character but he changed his name. He also had not failed at all, failure would indicate he did need the money. Failure would indicate he was not still getting or had already filmed good roles. He did what he needed to be a success. No one else from wrestling has succeeded in movies like he has. I have a hard time believing his approach had nothing to do with it. I think it is disgusting that people act like Rock doesn't like pro wrestling at all. I also find it amusing that people really think the WWE is so huge profile booster. What has it done for Austin's movie career? My god that thing really took off after his latest appearance Just look at how big those stars were consistently lining up to host RAW every week It really baffles me that people think Rock is in WWE to promote himself, not to promote the WWE to everyone else.

erm... no. If I dislike Rock for ignoring the industry once he left, why would I love a man who walked out on it a number of times because he didn't like how he was being booked?

That was me explaining why I personally had felt that way in the past and was not supposed to have any relevance to you fwiw.

Have you me confused with Sly? While I don't share the hatred many have for Cena, the SuperCena shtick does piss me off on occasion.

As for it being the booking, that's something neither of us can know SD. However, I'd be amazed if Rock didn't have some pretty major creative control. You've pointed out yourself about Cena's comments, Trips has also had his share of digs at the Great One. Throw in that it was in his own backyard and is it a stretch to believe that he was always winning? It would really accentuate his Rockiness heading in GI Joe 2.

Cena was just a prominent example. I'd be amazed if Cena did not have creative control at this point as well. I don't really see why Rock should come back and put over someone that attacked him seemingly unprovoked in the media anyway. If the Rock had creative control why would he still put Cena over in so many other ways? Why is the pinfall all that matters? Even if in some absurd parallel universe he did say I will only come back so I can beat Cena, the powers that be still signed off on it. If you are correct and he needed the WWE more than they needed him then it should have been easy for them to get the booking they desired opposed to this hypothetical major creative control.

 

[aza1294]

I don't see how people are still making a valid argument for Thesz. Sure he is the greatest technician of all time and a good draw in a dark time for wrestling, but that means nothing in kayfabe. In kayfabe Rock is the better superstar and unless this was a feud would win. Since this is tournament format Rock advances.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Serious thespian? Give me a break. He wanted to be an action hero, one that is often comedic, sounds a lot like he was always trying to be the Rock character but he changed his name.

Dwayne Johnson
"From now on please call me Dwayne Johnson. I want to be known as Dwayne Johnson the actor, and not The Rock. I loved The Rock; The Rock was a nickname but what's happened is it's naturally progressed into Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson. When it becomes just Dwayne Johnson, as it will in the next movie Southland Tales, that's fine. I never wanted to make that defining statement. It just didn't feel right to me."

Southland Tales was Rock's attempt to move into more serious roles - it flopped and flopped big. It was the much anticipated follow up to Donnie Darko and it encountered problem after problem before finally being released to tepid reviews and even worse box office.

He also had not failed at all, failure would indicate he did need the money. Failure would indicate he was not still getting or had already filmed good roles. He did what he needed to be a success. No one else from wrestling has succeeded in movies like he has. I have a hard time believing his approach had nothing to do with it. I think it is disgusting that people act like Rock doesn't like pro wrestling at all. I also find it amusing that people really think the WWE is so huge profile booster. What has it done for Austin's movie career? My god that thing really took off after his latest appearance Just look at how big those stars were consistently lining up to host RAW every week It really baffles me that people think Rock is in WWE to promote himself, not to promote the WWE to everyone else.

I believe I've already stated that he doesn't need the money.

The A-Team, Real Steel, the Three Stooges - just three examples of Hollywood using RAW to promote their products. Are you telling me that the press releases for GI Joe 2 won't be using footage of WM to highlight what a bad ass Mr Johnson is?

As for SCSA, he doesn't really have the look for Rock roles and the genre he is most suited for has been on the decline since the 80s... but he's still getting steady work 9 years after retiring in ring, so I'd say he hasn't done to badly from being a WWe wrestler.

That was me explaining why I personally had felt that way in the past and was not supposed to have any relevance to you fwiw.

My apology, you've a habit of single paragraph replies - it gave the implication that you were still addressing my post.

Cena was just a prominent example. I'd be amazed if Cena did not have creative control at this point as well. I don't really see why Rock should come back and put over someone that attacked him seemingly unprovoked in the media anyway. If the Rock had creative control why would he still put Cena over in so many other ways? Why is the pinfall all that matters? Even if in some absurd parallel universe he did say I will only come back so I can beat Cena, the powers that be still signed off on it. If you are correct and he needed the WWE more than they needed him then it should have been easy for them to get the booking they desired opposed to this hypothetical major creative control.

Who needs who is a mute argument, it is a mutual thing - WWe benefits from having a guy both revered by wrestling fans and a Hollywood star to boot. Rock benefits from re-establishing himself with the role that made him a Hollywood star and the PR that will entail.

You say that he doesn't need to do this but I ask you this, what was the last film to open solely on his name and be a box office smash?

GI Joe 2 (2013) - a sequel to a film he wasn't in AND it also features a certain Mr Bruce Willis.
Journey 2 (2012) - again, a sequel to a film he wasn't in: budget $79m; domestic gross $102.
F&F5 (2011) - another sequel, again his first appearance in series: budget $125m; domestic gross $205m.
Faster (2010) - Budget $24m; domestic gross $23m.
Tooth Fairy (2010) - Budget $48m; domestic $60m.
Planet 51 (2009) - Budget $70m; domestic $42m.
Race To Witch Mountain (2009) - Budget $65; domestic gross $67.
The Game Plan (2007) - Budget $22; domestic gross $90.
Gridiron Gang (2006) - Budget $30; domestic gross $38m.
Southland Tales (2006) - Budget $17m; $275 thousand domestic... hmmm, serious REALLY didn't work out!
Doom (2005) - Budget $60; domestic gross $28.
Walking Tall (2004) - Budget $58; domestic gross $45.
The Rundown (2003) - Budget $85; domestic gross $47.
The Scorpion King (2002) - Budget $60; domestic gross $91.

So the only film that has really sold in the US on his name value alone is the Game Plan. Asides from that, he is only regarded a safe per of hands when the original star(s) jump ship or if a action background supporting guy is needed (like The Other Guys or Get Smart).

Simple fact: Dwayne Johnson's movie career immediately prior to WM27 wasn't overly rosey. Strangely, his Hollywood career looks one hell of a lot stronger since the collaboration.

If you guys want to believe he came back for love of the industry, that's your prerogative. Don't feel you have any right to lambaste me for mine though, as far as I'm concerned circumstances, evidence and his luminaries have carried me to my opinion.