Miami Region, Fifth Round: (4) Lou Thesz vs. (11) CM Punk

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, May 17, 2012.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Lou Thesz

  2. CM Punk

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Actually, Punk probably would job to a powerbomb, depending on who delivers it. Thesz's original variant dropped the recipient on his head and neck, certainly enough to keep Punk down.

    Thesz skill with the move surpasses Cena's meaning Punk'll have a harder time getitng out and Thesz is more likely to secure a submission with it.

    I'll just leave this here.

    [YOUTUBE]uRLB3CONnq0[/YOUTUBE]

    Angle doesn't bridge after his Germans. Doing that makes it harder to kick out because you're stunned and have no time to recover.

    Different type of wrestling. Thesz was a hooker. The aim of that type of wrestling is to hurt the opponent. Angle is a freestyle wrestler. The aim of that discipline is to pin the opponent. Thesz did beat numerous olympic level wrestlers though.

    What, the white belt (ya know, the one that comes with the gi) he has and the complete lack of evidence for actual Martial arts training? Yeah no he didn't.

    And yet he drew more fans than Punk ever will. Speed isn't everything.

    And that matters to whether or not Thesz shoudl go over an overrated jumped up midcarder like CM Punk because?

    Yeah, the fact that you're citing the piece of shit federation that is ROH indicates that you're a moron.

    Fair enough.

    A guy who spent a decade holding world titles is likely to lose to a jumped up midcarder?

    Yes, well over a decade would certainly qualify as "a good period of time" :lmao:

    :lmao:

    And this is an argument for his cardio against Lou Thesz's because?

    Wow, a bunch of titles held in irrelevent federations copied and pasted from Wikipedia.

    The fact that you're even citing these feds in comparason to the territories is fucking laughable. The indies and the territories differ in two main regards. The (well run) territories drew money, whereas no indies do on a large scale (ROH can't pay the likes of Lance storm a fair wage). The second is that the territories were relevant. The indies aren't even close to that.

    No, you should count Punk out because he's not as good as Thesz, achieved less than Thesz, isn't as notable as Thesz, wasn't as innovative as Thesz and didn't draw as much as Thesz. No matter how you want to compare the two Punk comes out as the bitch.

    Vote Punk, unless you support pathetic arguments that rely more on word forts than actual merit.
     
    #26
  2. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    The skill with the move? Did he have a magical secret he never let the rest of the wrestling world in on? A special amulet that allowed him only to do the move properly?



    good. RL and kayfabe do differ. Here is an example: I can gouge out your eyes and really blind you in RL. In wrestling an eye gouge is considered a very simple tactic to distract- you dont win with it.





    Not with that variation, your right- but he does do the bridge. Look at others like RVD- great bridging German, doesnt win with it. Malenko? Others? It is a basic move that hasnt pinned anyone in so long its crazy.



    Funny because I swear he was an 'accomplished' freestyle wrestler. You know- a thing Kurt was considered fantastic enough to win a gold medal at? Thesz later trained as a 'hooker' and his freestyle backround was brought up alot to make him more credible in his style while being a pro wrestler.




    I still beg to differ on this, based on the fact that the current product is seen by millions of people across the globe. The older days were viewed by nowhere near as many people. His 'draws' were based on attendance in smaller venues that the WWE trumps in PPV shows and the tv audience was vastly smaller than now considering there are tv's in every home now as opposed to back then when they werent. More people had radios than tv sets because they were a high priced item and most people couldnt afford them. It took a while for a tv set to be in every home and mass produced to be affordable. The heyday of Thesz was in the 50's where roughly half of americans had tv sets. It wasnt until 63\64 when they were in almost 90% of homes by that time Thesz was on his 'semi-retired' run.





    2 reasons it was said. 1- people 'loving' Thesz so much and voting for him, yet could give two shits about him any other time. 2- to point out you should vote on who you believe to be better, not who its 'cool' to because others who actually know what Thesz is about.

    Never said that my statement there was why Punk should win. You fail at making your point.



    Well given the context its relevant despite if you like ROH personally. It is akin to the smaller run promotions in the past.



    Again you fail at making a point or discrediting mine. Where exactly did i say anything about 'better cardio'? I made the statement in regards to matches that were similar in length yet one was more exciting to me. It was a reference to how people always bring up Thesz wrestling long matches. Punk has also back in his day, his were more exciting to me.

    Context. When I put words into sentances and then together to form paragraphs- its for a reason. Its the flow of conversation and structures what i am saying. This isnt mad libs where you throw whatever words you want in my sentances and try to make a point that was never there.



    Point was that he fought through the Indy territories and was a champion. Something that is foreign to many guys nowadays. Who cares if it was from wiki. You have a personal hand-written list of all the titles ever won that you recite from? Alright then, thought not.

    And yet that is the closest we have now to back then. Reason why indy territories make little money? Because they have major global competition due to Vince and his empire. If there was a powerhouse global fed then like Vince has now- bet your ass the territories would draw shit. You know why the indy shows dont draw very big? Because the fans are at the WWE shows watching guys like CM Punk- the WWE champion.




    So you agree to vote Punk then, yes? Your statement seems to infer that the 'pathetic word fort' arguments are from Camp Thesz. Once again, context. Learn to use it before you make an ass of yourself and tell people to vote for the wrong guy. Like you just did.


    Vote Punk, because he can\has won big matches against huge draws. And because Kotre Ibushimix said so earlier.
     
    #27
  3. pumpkinking8987

    pumpkinking8987 PuMPKiNKiNG

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    In the last round, I could justify Punk winning over Andre because Punk had the stip advantage and was hands down the better In-Ring Talent.

    There is no Stip in this round it is a straight up wrestling match, and I can in no way make an arguement saying Punk is a better In-Ring wrestler. Punk just doesnt have the experience yet to win in this matchup.
     
    #28
  4. aza1294

    aza1294 Occasional Pre-Show

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    Gelgarin versus mindless Punk fans, who's gonna win!? In all seriousness though this is Thesz' match to win. Punk only got past Andre due to the stipulation being in his advantage and that barely got him over the line. with no stipulation to aid him against arguably the greatest ring technician of all time Punk doesn't stand a chance
     
    #29
  5. Pyro180

    Pyro180 Dark Match Jobber

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    I have all the respect in the world for Lou.
    However. Punk has evolved into something of a wrestling masterpiece.
    If im not too bold by saying that.
     
    #30
  6. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    This works in baseball, but it has been proven time and again not to be the case in professional wrestling. Jerry Lawler's prime was in the early 70s. He beat Jack Swagger in 2011, 40 years removed from his prime. Now, as you say at some stage, there's a difference between 40 years and 60 years, which is true, certainly. However, Jerry Lawler had also aged 40 years in that time, and was clearly slower etc. My point is this - someone who wrestles with a completely out of date style can succeed in kayfabe and it has been proven time and time again. I can't show you someone from the 50s in their prime beating someone from the 2000s in their prime, because it's obviously impossible. I can show you people from the 50s beating people from the 80s, thirty years out of their prime and people from the 70s beating people from the 2010s beating people from the 2010s.

    You're right. I don't know anything about MMA, and I won't pretend to. But when I googled "kimura", there seems to be an awful lot of people winning MMA bouts using it. Seems the guy who invented it would be a pretty good jiu jitsu practitioner too, no? Seeing as it's ubiquitous there now? You've actually posted a video of someone doing it:

    So Thesz fought the guy who invented that, and Punk has never been seen to do it on anyone in the history of the earth, I'm pretty sure it will be ok. Funnily enough, when Gotch crossed Thesz in 1964, Thesz used a (legitimate) double wristlock to win. Again, I don't know anything about that, but it would seem that is a common submission in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

    So, on this Jiu Jitsu front - Thesz wrestled the guy who invented one of the strongest submissions, and won a match using one of its most common. Punk practiced Jiu Jitsu to some level at some point when he was under 18, yet there is zero hard evidence for how much he progressed in that or even if he fought a single bout in anger.



    An absolute joke that has headlined more PPVs, including a WrestleMania than CM Punk in a shorter career. But ignoring that fact, my point stands - Lawler beat Booker T in the mid 2000s. Sting is still winning now aged 50, wrestling a very 90s style, the Rock just came back and won, Hogan was the world champion in the 2000s, Foley was the TNA champion in the last 4 years - age and being out of the right era are irrelevant in pro wrestling, and the facts are there to prove it.



    Thesz would still be in great shape

    1) That's because it's a modern pro wrestling forum. Do you think if you went on a car forum there'd be an abundance of people who love Model T Fords? No. They're specialist and niche, so they go and make their own forums, like the Lou Thesz forum.

    2) You have to remember that as an all-time tournament, you have an all-time audience. This is hard to conceptualise, but you have to imagine that the crowd would be from all of time. Sure, a lot of people now are bored by 1950s wrestling, but the audience members with past attitudes would think that CM Punk looked ridiculous and like a complete phony.

    How can you know you'd like something you've never seen? But again, by all means backtrack to save face.

    But it isn't. If this tournament was judged on the entertainment of the IWC, there's plenty of people who'd go nowhere when they should. If entertainment should be measured at all, and being a subjective thing, then all you can say is "did people choose to watch the wrestler over his contemporaries". The answer is an overwhelming yes for Thesz and a no for Punk.

    I'm not sure I agree with that. If you showed this:



    to the Transformers 2 audience, they'd say "this is boring and shit", as would happen if you played Liszt at a Metallica concert, but we aren't looking to find the wrestler who would be the most entertaining in 2012, we're looking to find the best wrestler of all time.
    http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=10

    You're missing the point anyway. The preferences of an audience now have no bearing on the quality of product from the past. More people now like Justin Bieber than the music of Mozart, does that mean Bieber goes over Mozart in a musicians tournament?

    If the same promoter in the same arena draws 5,000 people for a match between Watson and George and 15,000 for Thesz and Watson it means one of two things:

    1) Gorgeous George drove audiences away
    2) Thesz is responsible for bringing them in.

    General wrestling knowledge says that 1) isn't true. Therefore Thesz is the reason.

    Doesn't that imply it? Thesz may have started in a better place genetically, but his achievements are so far out of Punk's league that for Punk to have overcome "par achievement" in the same way he would have had to have been someone Helen Keller described as unfortunate.

    Firstly, Thesz had sway because he was so good. They had to keep him onside. Secondly, Ed Lewis trained Thesz, but Thesz helped him out by having him ringside. Lewis was basically broke, and certainly didn't open any doors for Thesz.

    To say Punk didn't luck out is an absolute joke. He won his first MITB because Jeff Hardy got suspended. Winning the world title because somebody else can't stop taking crack is pretty fucking lucky in my book.


    When Punk was the world champion in 2008, he couldn't make the contemporary crowd give a shit about him, despite the fact he went over Edge, the biggest heel in the company at the time. Then he feuded with JBL, again a hugely hated heel, and got no reaction.

    Punk hasn't been able to captivate the crowd for the entirety of his own era, let alone anyone elses. Thesz last wrestled in 1990, and the crowd still cared.

    You are too bold. What does this even mean? Zero.
     
    #31
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  7. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    It pains me to say it, but I have to go with this guy.

    I could envision the stipulation in the last match it the point where it was more than feasible, it was more likely that Punk would win. I can't do that here, there's so little to go on.

    I would love to vote for Punk but my brain has engaged and told me off, so I just can't.
     
    #32
  8. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    This is just incorrect. Right now the most high profile judoka in MMA is, as you so eloquently put it, "GIRL" (ooohhh, cooties!), but there have been several high profile judoka who have succeeded in MMA. Manny Gamburyan, Karo Parisyan, Hidehiko Yoshida, Kazuhiro Nakamura, and even the great Fedor Emelianenko has a significant amount of judo training. He focused on sambo competitions because he wasn't good enough at Judo. That's just right off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.

    ANyway, vote Thesz. He's the better, more popular, and more dominant wrestler. He's in the discussion for the greatest wrestler EVER. Punk...is not.
     
    #33
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  9. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Gelgarin and Tastycles... I will be responding to your posts either sometime tomorrow or Monday. For now I just want to address this.

    Depends on your definition of succeeding.

    But, even if you consider the guys you named (outside of Fedor) to be true successes, are they still succeeding today? Nope. How many Judos guys are in the sport TODAY? None. Only a girl. And why is that? Because the sport of shoot fighting has evolved in just five years time to eliminate judo guys as any sort of threat in an actual shoot fight.

    That happened in simply five years time... now imagine the evolution fighting has taken in over 60 years time? It's exactly why no one from today who is in good shape and has any kind of extensive training in the martial arts of today would ever get beat up by a grappler for over 60 years ago.

    That has been my point this entire time, and it cannot be disputed no matter how hard someone tries.

    Karo is the only man on your list with only any real success, and even that isn't anything to harp about. Every other person you named barely has records over .500. How exactly are those successful?

    No, he focused on Sambo because it's a huge deal in his homeland. Judo is apart of Sambo, yes, but much more goes into it than just that.

    If Fedor only trained Judo then he wouldn't have amounted into anything in MMA. However, since he also worked extensively in striking and submissions, he became the greatest Heavyweight fighter the sport has ever seen. Judo only played a very small role in his success, so this was a horrible example. Shinya Aoki would have been a much better one, but even his success comes more because of his Jiu-Jitsu training than his Judo training.
     
    #34
  10. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Not really. Unless you only consider "winning the UFC/Pride championship" as success. Yoshida and Nakamura were both top 10 fighters at their weights at different points in their careers.

    Manny Gamburyan fought for UFC Featherweight title less than 2 years ago. Karl Amoussou and Gegard Mousasi are both Judo black belts. Even the great Anderson Silva chooses Judo for his takedown/grappling training as opposed to wrestling, as he is a blackbelt in Judo and rarely gets taken down.

    As I just showed you, Judo is alive and well in MMA. Just because most fighters are crosstraining and don't identify themselves as Judoka is just an evolution of the terminology. Almost everyone crosstrains and just thinks of themselves as "MMA fighter". You rarely see guys like Matt Hughes being billed as a wrestler or Mirko Cro Cop being billed as a kickboxer (although you're more likely to see it in the less skilled HW division).

    Jon Jones main base coming in was Junior COllege wrestling, but he's not really known for that in his fights, it's his dynamic striking and long limbs which make his chokes dangerous.

    Georges St. Pierre never wrestled a day in his life until he started fighting MMA, and now he's known for his takedowns. That's just the nature of MMA now. Plenty of guys still use Judo. A woman just happens to be most well-known for it because the women's game is far less developed.

    Already established, but Gamburyan fought for a UFC title recently, and Yoshida and Nakamura were both ranked in the LHW Top 10. Mousasi is top 10 right now.

    In Russia, Olympic Gold Medals set you for life. Trust me, if Fedor could have succeeded on the World Level in Judo, he would have been there. Have you ever seen world Sambo championships? It's hilariously sloppy.

    Judo includes submissions, and all you're pointing out now is that fighters need to crosstrain in MMA to be successful. That's obvious. But to tie it back your very original point, CM Punk isn't cross trained in real life. He actually has almost no training in anything.
     
    #35
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  11. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    A year of being on top versus decades... sorry, Punk, but you are still way to inexperienced at the top to go over a pioneer of the industry.
     
    #36
  12. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Uh... no, you're a much bigger Lou Thesz fan than I am CM Punk fan. You believe Thesz is the greatest wrestler of all time and would vote for him over anyone. Would I do that for Punk? Absolutely not. But I do believe he's better than Lou Thesz and I've gone into great deal why.

    While I strongly discredit Thesz in a lot of ways, I still give him at least some credit, whereas you haven't thrown one compliment towards CM Punk's way this entire thread. So, who's really the person letting bias play a role in their posting?

    No, people should vote for Punk because he's a better wrestler now than Thesz has ever been, and would kick his ass in a match. The only reason I bring up the "years down the line" example is because the main thing Thesz has on Punk, outside of his drawing numbers, is that he was around much longer, which any rational person would realize shouldn't be a huge deal since Punk UNDOUBTEDLY has many glorious years in this business ahead of him.

    So a theory can't be a true? All my "theories" are based around common sense and anyone unbiased to the match would realize it.

    If I'm wrong about that then fine... you got me. Big deal. But what about the GTS or much of other Punk's arsenal? Has Thesz seen that? No, so my prove still holds true.

    And as I told Davi, Daniel Puder is also a white belt, yet he knew enough BJJ to where he could have ripped a guy's arm off who has zero training in Jiu-Jitsu, yet is an Olympic Gold Medalist wrestler.

    That example right there proves my point. Just a little training in Jiu-Jitsu is more than enough experience against someone who doesn't have the first clue about it, especially a guy as big and athletic as CM Punk is.

    And where are those people today? That's right, there are hardly any. If his era of entertainment was truly entertaining, then it would still somewhat hold up today. But it doesn't. And you can't blame the business or wrestling fans today. Like I've said, films and television have heavily evolved, yet you can find many people who still like films and television broadcast from the 1950's. You can't do that for the wrestling of that era though, can you?

    Yeah, and there's a LOT of people, including many on this forum, who find Hulk Hogan's work to still hold up. Now, where are the Lou Thesz fans?

    No, I'm saying big events didn't happen near as much back then as they do now. Wrestling didn't have a huge show every week. There wasn't high profile MMA and Boxing fights 3 times a month. Important sporting events every week. Concerts in every city every week. Blockbuster films weren't released at nearly the rate they are today. Do you not get the difference?

    They had all those things in limited doses. There wasn't much variety of anything back then. How many true music superstars were there in the 50's? How many famous actors? Boxers? Wrestlers? How many restaurants to eat at per city for Christ sakes?

    It was a much, much different time, and it was a big reason why Thesz' wrestling matches drew people.

    So 3 years is half a decade?

    No, my original argument was that WRESTLING is what drew the people there, not just one man. And then I built on top of that argument with more "theories" in a later post.

    So, who is really backpeddling here? Instead of disproving my theory, you just throw up a bitch storm about me switching gears a bit in my argument, even though my argument has always been the same that the overall wrestling product (which includes the BOOKING) is what drew people to the arenas more than anything else. Yes, people of that era having nothing else to do is also apart of my argument. I can't have two reasons to believe why people would show up to a wrestling event?

    Back then people thought wrestling was real. It was the reputation that nobody could beat Lou Thesz why more people showed up than usual as his reign went longer.

    Talk to anyone who knows anything about Jiu-Jitsu and they'll tell you that it gives you a significant advantage in a fight if you have just a little training in it against someone who has zero training in it. What part of that do you not understand?

    I backed it up with the Daniel Puder/Kurt Angle match. Would you like another example?

    Maybe because by the time O'Connor won the strap Thesz still had that "unbeatable" reputation about him? It's not like Thesz went on some big losing streak. He only lost clean once by the time O'Connor had his reign. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you'll tell me if I am, but if not, then let me ask you this...

    Would you rather watch the World Champion vs. someone, or a former World Champion who in the last 10 years was pretty much undefeated vs. a big name? As long as Thesz kept winning, his "unbeatable" reputation would stick with him. That's simply good booking more than it is actual talent.

    I strongly believe they would if either one were booked like Thesz was.

    But, yes, okay... I was wrong to say that. I made a mistake when, yes, including the 'long reign' thing should have been apart of my argument the entire time. But better late than never, right? It doesn't make that theory wrong because it popped into my mind as our arguments progressed.

    Now let's see you admit that almost any top name from that era who would have held on to the championship for close to ten years would have started to get huge houses as the years went by. It's common sense, especially since we're talking about an era where PEOPLE THOUGHT WRESTLING WAS REAL and promos/entertaining matches wasn't what put asses in the seats, but let's see if you can admit it. I strongly doubt it, though. I also doubt you'll admit that 3 years isn't half a decade.

    How was I wrong about that? O'Connor didn't hold the belt nearly as long as Thesz. You say multiple years, but it was only TWO. Way to try to manipulate anyone reading this. First you claim I'm half a decade old than you, but it's only 3 years, and now you put multiple years instead of two, when Thesz was champion (and more importantly cleanly unbeaten) for much longer than that. It's obviously going to take much longer than a couple of years to develop the reputation Thesz had.

    Lawler has also been apart of the business all of this time, and has seen it progress first hand. Lou Thesz doesn't have that going for him though, does he?

    Wait... when did Thesz "fight" Masahiko Kimura? Did he even have a wrestling match against him? And I've never seen someone win an MMA fight and Jiu-Jitsu exhibition with a double wristlock.

    Besides, it doesn't matter anyway. Does Thesz know about the triangle? Various leg locks? Various neck cranks? Body locks? All the different transitions and defenses that have been invented far after his death? No, he doesn't, and Punk has the advantage to learn just enough with limited training, which he has done under the founding family of the art.

    I looked up the Lou Thesz forum and it seems to average about a post a day, if not less. Very impressive....

    You're grasping at straws here, man. Be unlike Gelgarin and admit that there are only very few out there who find any enjoyment watching any of that stuff today.

    But as soon as he went in there and kicked ass, their opinions would change. ;)

    Because it's obvious? Baseball is baseball. Not much has changed about it, Tasty. Pro wrestling over the years, however, has changed for the better. Much better.

    But I'm not arguing about the entertainment of the IWC, but of people period. And the fact is, hardly anyone today would ever find any entertainment value in watching a Lou Thesz match.

    Lou Thesz = Wrestler from the 1950's. CM Punk = Wrestler from the 2000's. On the Waterfront = Movie from 1956. Transformers 2 = Movie from 2009. Fans of film (not just anyone, but true movie buffs, which are millions and millions of people) from the age range of 18-42 will find more enjoyment out of On the Waterfront than they will Transformers 2. Now, can you say the same about wrestling fans from that age range would find more enjoyment watching Thesz instead of Punk? No, you cannot. Why? Because Thesz's work is simply does not hold up.

    That doesn't look like a lot of people to me, Tastycles. I never said no one could enjoy a Thesz match in a literal sense, but those who could are very few and far between. Even Uwe Boll has a fanbase out there.

    No, since Mozart's music is still enjoyed by millions, if not billions, of people to this day.

    What does that have to do with what I said? I meant booking from the sense of Thesz continuing to win, which at that time having a long term champion was the right thing to do.

    No, it does not. It implies that the level of success Punk has reached is more impressive than what Thesz was able to do. I'm not claiming Punk has more "achievements."

    Obviously a wrestler who had a shit ton of success in the 1930's doesn't mean he's going to be financially secure for the rest of his life. However, it's not ridiculous to think that if Thesz never met Lewis than he wouldn't have amounted to anything in the business. Punk was trained by Ace Steel... do you not see the difference? If Ace Steel wasn't there Punk could have simply gone somewhere else and got the same results. But if Lewis wasn't around for Thesz, who knows what would have happened.

    No, it wasn't luck. They had 6 others to choose from and they chose Punk. And that first World title reign held Punk back more than it helped anyway. His title run was booked pathetically. The fact he was able to recover from it to now be one of the biggest faces in the company today speaks highly of Punk's talent.

    And the booking had nothing to do with it? You know as well as I do that WWE made Punk as generic as possible. His mic work was only given very limited time, and he was made to look weak quite a bit.

    Yeah, the Japanese were intrigued to see a 70 year old wrestle. Would have loved to seen how that would have gone over in the states.

    By the way, I have Thesz's induction into the WCW Hall of Fame on video tape at Slamboree 1993 somewhere at my mom's house, and the crowd didn't seem care all that much IIRC.

    Lol... give me a break, man. Yoshida beat Japanese bums, a washed-up Don Frye, a Mark Hunt who had yet train any form of ground game, and Tank Abbott. And Nakamura lost to every big name he ever faced and whose name is only remembered because of Wanderlei's knock out of him.

    And now he's on a 3 fight losing streak, 11-7 overall, and has only one good win his entire career. The only reason he got a title shot was because there was no one else.

    Amoussou sucks, and Mousasi might be a black belt, but his striking is what got him this far. Bad examples, again, because we're talking about Lou Thesz beating a guy who ONLY knew Judo, nothing else.

    And we saw how well that worked out against Chael Sonnen and Travis Lutter, huh? Not so well, did it? Nope, but what bailed Anderson out? JIU-JITSU.

    I'm not arguing with you whether or not there are some guys in MMA who use Judo for their benefit; I'm saying pure Judo practioners are nothing to harp about and that most guys who started in Judo and made the transition to MMA have not done well. Those are simply facts.

    And ridiculously popular and much more beneficial to someone in MMA or in an actual fight than judo is. Fedor and the Diaz brothers > Any Judo practitioners.
     
    #37
  13. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    He was active in wrestling from the 1930s until the 1990s. I'm pretty sure he would have seen some development in that time.


    Yes, he wrestled in tag matches with him in Japan in the 50s when Kimura first became a wrestler.

    We're getting drastically off course with this. Until I see some hard evidence that Punk has anything above a child going to martial arts class level of training, I don't think it's relevant.


    I'm not saying it's popular, but there is clearly an audience for it, which is not what you claimed.


    But he wouldn't? Even if CM Punk is a fully trained jiu jitsu practitioner, he'd still get whipped by one of the best legitimate wrestlers in the world. As a professional wrestler, he'd look like a tool.

    If baseball hasn't changed why would Babe Ruth be worse now? Your suggestion, not mine.


    And hardly anyone in the 1950s would find entertainment value in a CM Punk match, because it looks lame and phony to them. This is an all time tournament, not a 2000s tournament.

    I think your barking up the wrong tree with this. Firstly, films from the 50s have far more exposure than wrestling from the 50s, which either wasn't televised or filmed in an era when tapes weren't kept. Secondly, Thesz was about the arena, not about televison audiences. They're two very different things. There's a greater difference in wrestling between 1981 and 1985 than there is between 1985 and the present. The reason for that is because of who it is aimed at. Comparing the quality of one to the audience of the other is an unfair comparison.

    This would make sense if Thesz was the world champion for all his big gates, but he wasn't. It would also make sense if all world title holders drew as well as him, but they didn't.

    Fair enough.

    Given that Thesz was an established professional wrestler before he met Lewis, and was a world champion shortly afterwards (and probably before any serious training had taken place), I think you're wrong.

    While I was researching that point, I found this though, stating that Ed Lewis was a jiu jitsu expert seconded to training the Marine Corps:

    I believe "pipe bomb" is the term.

    The fact that the World Champion had to recover from his reign shows that he couldn't handle being thrown in at the deepend. Unlike Thesz, who was a popular world champion at 21 years old.

    So your suggesting that the WWE wilfully made their champion a damp squib?

    Well, whenever other old guys get wheeled out, they seem enthusiastic. Snuka could hardly move at WrestleMania the other year, and the crowd still cheered.

    I don't think you can read much into this. The WWE Hall of Fame presentation rarely gets the crowd going wild.
     
    #38
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  14. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Punk has been in the WWE for, what, 4 years? 5? He hasn't even shown he can sustain a run as a "top of the card" draw yet! Serious question, has Punk ever gone on last at a PPV in a singles match without Cena? I honestly don't know if he has, but I will rescind this point if he did. The overall point stands, though: he has yet to even be a consistent Top of the Card wrestler. He doesn't belong here at all, let alone beating Thesz. He should have lost 2-3 rounds ago.

    What is with people's constant need to elevate these guys just because they're IWC favorites. Give Punk 10-15 years at this level and maybe we can talk about him beating Bret Hart or Andre the Giant or Lou effing Thesz, but now? He quite simply hasn't done enough.

    Voting for Punk signifies that, if Punk retired tomorrow, you think he's better than Thesz' entire career. Let's be serious here.

    Vote Thesz.
     
    #39
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  15. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    As I said, if it was pointed out to me that I was wrong about Punk ending PPV's without Cena, and it has been pointed out to me in my Rep section that I was. So that individual point is rescinded, but my overall point stands. CM Punk hasn't done enough to be in this Final 4, let alone beating Thesz. He's been on the Main Event scene for less than 3 years.

    Vote Thesz.
     
    #40
  16. Larry

    Larry Getting Noticed By Management

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    I'm so tired of this crap with Lou Thesz, it's absolutely repugnant and ludicrous as JMT originally pointed out. All this filibuster over Thesz and his ability, drawing power, etc... is so over exaggerated, if it were even half of the truth it's said to be, he should be awarded the tournament without going through any more motions so we don't have to hear any more of these asinine arguments in his favor. JMT's first argument and those that came after made perfect sense to anyone not blatantly drinking the Thesz Kool-Aid and sewed this one up perfectly. I can't stand for this shit anymore with Thesz, and Gelgarian making the same fucking argument round after round for him, and it being twisted and cajoled to equal Thesz miraculously beating every person you put in front of him. Thesz wasn't even the biggest star of his day, and had nothing good to say about anyone who was as big as him, namely Buddy Rogers. Frank Gotch or George Hackenschmidt would have absolutely destroyed Thesz and they wrestled when it really was REAL and won REAL matches. Thesz was a journeyman titleholder at best, and a jealous asshole at worst. Punk is a superior modern athlete/wrestler who could work circles around a guy like Thesz and break him apart with a modern offense that would be too overwhelming for a mat wrestler like Thesz. I think JMT hit the nail on the head with that argument and it should stick.

    VOTE CM PUNK OUT OF SPITE FOR LOU THESZ.
     
    #41
  17. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    I read his first argument and the only thing I got out of it was that since Thesz wrestled in the 1950's, that's he boring and doesn't go over Punk. Punk doesn't exactly do a lot that Thesz hasn't seen either. I'm sure he would be afraid of a GTS and its complexity. At the end of the day, Punk can't even be a big draw when he's champion and has routinely failed against the top guys of his era. What makes me think that he would go over Lou?
     
    #42
  18. Davi323

    Davi323 semi-retired from WZ

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    I'm so tired of this crap with CM Punk, it's absolutely repugnant and ludicrous as Tastycles originally pointed out. All this filibuster (I think you meant bluster, as a filibuster is a tactic used by politicians to stall bills from being voted on) over Punk and his ability, drawing power, etc... is so over exaggerated, if it were even half of the truth it's said to be, he should be awarded the tournament without going through any more motions so we don't have to hear any more of these asinine arguments in his favor. Tastycles' first argument and those that came after made perfect sense to anyone not blatantly drinking the Punk Kool-Aid and sewed this one up perfectly. I can't stand for this shit anymore with Punk, and Ba-Bomb making the same fucking argument round after round for him, and it being twisted and cajoled to equal Punk miraculously beating every person you put in front of him. Punk isn't even the biggest star of his day, John Cena, The Rock or Brock Lesnar would have absolutely destroyed Punk and they wrestled when it really was REAL KAYFABE and won REAL KAYFABE matches. Punk is a transitional titleholder at best, and a jealous asshole at worst. Thesz is a superior athlete/wrestler who could work circles around a guy like Punk and break him apart with a legit shoot offense that would be too overwhelming for a spot monkey wrestler like Punk. I think Tastycles hit the nail on the head with that argument and it should stick.

    VOTE LOU THESZ BECAUSE HE IS FUCKING SUPERIOR TO CM PUNK IN EVERY SINGLE WAY.
     
    #43
  19. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    And there you have more convincing proof than I could ever hope to produce that the people voting for CM Punk are idiots.

    Vote Lou Thesz; because Ba-bomb didn't, and who the fuck wants to be like him?

    And just for the record...

    1) Buddy Rogers was never as big as Thesz - anyone who wasn't oxygen starves as a child can come to that conclusion; you just need to be able to count. Rogers only drew in one small part of the country and his relevancy only lasted about three years.

    2) Nobody from that era has a nice word to say about Buddy Rogers. Man was a cunt who regularly no-showed, refused to travel, refused to job, refused to sell, refused to work longer than 20 minutes, treated women in a manner I'd consider appalling even for the time period, disrespected veterans and generally pissed people of for a hobby. There's a reason Karl Gotch snapped this guy's wrist.

    3) Thesz has had plenty of nice things to say about names from his era; namely Gagne, Gotch, Gorgeous George, DLJ, O'Connor, Sammartino or a hundred other names you probably don't even know. Stop trying to join in; you're too stupid to be allowed an opinion.

    You're an idiot.
     
    #44
  20. Larry

    Larry Getting Noticed By Management

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    But JMT was right, Thesz is boring. If we're holding everyone to the same standards, Thesz wouldn't draw flies today if he was covered in shit, there just wasn't anything compelling about that style which is why the business moved away from it as JMT noted. It doesn't have anything to do with it taking place in the 50's, that just happens to be when it did. It has everything to do with him wrestling a boring, out of date, insufficient style to draw a crowd by todays standards, or beat a modern day athlete like Punk. As for Punk's drawing power, the lot of you sure were drawn in when he did that promo last summer and for the time following after that, what's wrong? The bandwagon got overpopulated so it's not cool anymore?

    Fucking Lame Dude! You just botched my post man! Half of that doesn't even work the way you did it.

    I don't even give a shit about CM Punk, I'm just tired of all this crap over Lou Thesz and "How Superior He Is" "supposedly". I don't buy it, and frankly I'm embarrassed for most of you that you have been swayed into somehow believing it too. I understand it's easier to nod your head in agreement than to have to deal with the incessant shit from Gelgarian polishing Thesz's ass for him and lashing out at anyone who refuses to do the same, but for God's sake have some guts and don't let his overblown bullshit form your opinion for you.

    BTW, I did mean filibuster. It can be used outside the political field, and really just represents an attempt to impede a process via a long speech or any obstructive tactic. In this case the long speech and obstructive tactic generally has come from Gelgarian and has been used to stop people from voting against Lou Thesz and keep them from voting for CM Punk.
     
    #45
  21. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the curious species of Moronus Ignoramus. I'd leave it there, but lets look at it in a bit of detail.

    He consistently outdrew every single wrestler of his day, and just about everyone in wrestling at the time is of the opinion that Buddy Rogers was a bit of an ********, but lets look at some of that bitterness Thesz had.

    FEEL THE IRE.

    Whereas they'd lose to CM Punk? This is debatable in the first place, but even if we accept it, it's irrelevant. Hulk Hogan would lose to Jack Swagger in a real wrestling match.

    Yes, the longest reigning title holder of all time is a journeyman. Lets hear more of that jealous spite:

     
    #46
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  22. Davi323

    Davi323 semi-retired from WZ

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    I don't give a shit who Gelgarin favors. I vote the way I want to vote, and for you to imply any different makes you one extremely stupid idiot. Did it ever occur to your extremely tiny mind that not everyone has as limited amount of wrestling knowledge as you do? You want to know why I support Lou Thesz in the matchup? It's because he was flat out better than Punk.

    And this coming from a guy who argued passionately on Punk's behalf in the previous round against ANDRE THE MOTHER FUCKING GIANT. I dare you to try to call me just a Punk hater...I dare you.

    What's not to get about Lou Thesz? The guy's record as a professional wrestler is unsurpassed. 18 World Championships in a career that spanned multiple decades isn't good enough? It's got to be because everyone who thinks differently than you is just kissing Gelgarin's ass? Fuck you.
     
    #47
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  23. Larry

    Larry Getting Noticed By Management

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    Of course, because anyone who doesn't agree with you is then an idiot apparently. Fuck your mother.

    Fuck your sister (if you've got one).

    OK hot shot, prove it. Rogers was every bit as big as Thesz, and he had a great deal of animosity towards him not only for that, but because he wasn't a traditional guy like him. Buddy Rogers is the guy that defined what would become the modern day heel, he was different than anyone else at the time, he was a great influence to none other than Ric Flair who took everything from Rogers to make it his own and I don't need to go on about him, and he certainly did draw the most in a small part of the country, but that small part of the country was also the biggest market in the country, so much so that at one time it controlled 80% of the NWA's bookings everywhere else, so don't play your revisionist history bullshit with me, because I'm smart enough to know, unlike a lot of the people you've been able to buffalo into just buying into the shit you spew.

    I bet you Ric Flair has a lot of nice things to say about Rogers. And hey, your a cunt but nobody goes around talking about it. Bottom line, Buddy Rogers was a master at what he did, anyone would tell you that, and if you've got a problem with him outside the ring, too fucking bad, he was a legend in it. I bet he did disrespect veterans, wrestle for ridiculous time periods, refuse to sell or job, and called a lot of his own shots. He was big enough at the time to do that. And what respect do you suppose he got from those veterans? How many of them were going to job to him? How many of them were going to sell for him? They couldn't stand him because he was a bleached blond pretty boy who walked around like a peacock with his feathers spread, knew he was the shit and let everyone know it, and also took the business in a direction that made them dinosaurs go extinct because he made it more of a show as well, where they all wanted to pretend to be legit shooting tough guys and he wasn't going to play their bullshit games. He was an outsider to them, they hated him for it, and he responded in kind and spit in their eyes by being bigger and better than the lot of them. True Story, go look it up, and chew on that.


    But, the guy from "That other Territory" that he never got over in, the biggest territory in the country, now he was an asshole, non-traditionalist, who watched his own back and didn't bow down to the "greats" before him. Too fucking bad, he wasn't blown over by their inside bullshit, and like anyone who wasn't they tried to cause him real physical harm, run his name in the ground and talk as much shit about him as possible, discredit him in any way they could, and blacklist him, but none of it worked or mattered because he WAS bigger than them, he WAS the main man in the biggest territory, and he WAS better than them, a revolutionary that took the business in a new direction making it a true success again. They were too short sighted and stuck in their own ways to see the shift coming, and had to sit back and cry in their kool-aid when he made that a success, and they floated along trying to keep what they knew a success. It's all the other side of the story fuckfaces like you refuse to tell.

    Fuck Your Grandma.

    Most of all, FUCK YOU!
     
    #48
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  24. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    Can we relax the rules just this once so that I can simply call this guy a ****** and more on?

    No?

    Lame.

    OK then; because spit-roasting the intellectually handicapped never gets old.

    She's probably out of your league.

    She's definitely out of your league. Nice temper tantrum though.

    You know you would think; after all these years, after more debate than I can count, that people would have learned to stop saying this to me. It has never once worked out well for anyone.

    I'd be happy to prove it.

    Buddy Rogers début was in 1939.

    Between 1939 and 1959 Buddy Rogers managed to draw a gate on over 10,000 on forty-two separably occasions. That's only two major gates per year. Contrast this to Thesz, who literally doubled Rogers' numbers, pulling twice as many big gates between 1950-59 than Rogers had managed in his entire career up till that point.

    Buddy Rogers only became a relevant draw when he was handed the NWA championship in 1961; and he retired from wrestling after faking a heart attack in 1963. Hence my assertion that he was only a relevant draw for three years.

    You're an ignorant fuckwit.

    Err... Gorgeous George? The guy that non-******ed people attribute the invention of the modern heel to. Wrestled in the 40's and drew twice as many fans as Buddy Rogers. Tell me; are you capable of feeding yourself?

    Did Ric Flair wrestle during that era? Oh my goodness me he didn't. In point of fact he was only 14 years old when Rogers' relevancy came to an end. So I guess we can add being unable to count to the list of reasons that you're a fucking buffoon.

    That's the difference between me and you. People actually are talking about what an ignorant fuckwit you are.
     
    #49
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  25. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Okay, lets look at the prime of CM Punk:

    1. Money in the Bank; Won WWe Title against Cena. Main Event.
    2. Summerslam; Won against Cena, Lost to Del Rio. Main Event.
    3. Night of Champions; Lost to Triple H. Main Event.
    4. Hell in a Cell; Lost in triple treat against Cena and Del Rio. Main Event.
    5. Vengeance; Lost tag team match with HHH against Awesome Truth. 5th of 8 matches.
    6. Survivor Series; Won against Del Rio. 5th of 6 matches.
    7. Tables, Ladders and Chairs; Won against Del Rio & Miz. Main Event.
    8. Royal Rumble; Won against Dolph Ziggler. 5th of 6 matches.
    9. Elimination Chamber; Won RAW EC. Curtain Jerk of 5 matches.
    10. WrestleMania; Won against Y2J. 7th of 8 matches.
    11. Extreme Rules; Won against Y2J. 6th of 8 matches.
    12. Over the Limit; Won against Daniel Bryan. 7th of 9 matches.

    Soooooooo... Punk's 'prime' has lasted 12 PPVs, he has been part of the Main Event only 5 out of these 12, only headlined ONE where the names Cena or Hunter weren't involved and ultimately ended up a loser as three of these five events ended. Oh, and he hasn't headlined a single PPV this year yet!

    ... yup, I'm a sheep, it required Gelgarin to mind wash me into voting Thesz over this incredible resume:rolleyes:!
     
    #50
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