Because it needs to be said

[justinsayne]

I'm debating that people should enjoy watching recorded human dismemberment and depictions of barbarity, implied or not.

People should enjoy watching whatever entertains them, as long as they don't take it beyond just watching fictional accounts of it, I really don't see an issue with it at all, I may find it sick, twisted, or disgusting, and not understand how people could derive any enjoyment what so ever from it, but if they're able to then who am I to tell them they shouldn't be watching something they get enjoyment out of?

Please keep this on topic.

You posted this in teh cage & really expected people to stay on topic? you picked the wrong section for that broski, prolly should've posted this in the Cigar Lounge or something if you wanted a serious discussion on the issue

Doc, do you even posess the physical capability to say someone is wrong, and that what they do or like is fucking stupid?

No Doc is too nice for that, that's one of the qualities I find rather refreshing & respectable about Doc, it's nice to know there are still people in this world that arrn't close minded bitter douchebags

 

[Mighty NorCal]

No Doc is too nice for that, that's one of the qualities I find rather refreshing & respectable about Doc, it's nice to know there are still people in this world that arrn't close minded bitter douchebags

well you have to be able to draw the line somewere, and not just be some passive prison bitch meatsock.

No, motherfucker you are WRONG


It needs to be said when it needs to be said.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think the point that I'm trying to say is that watching a movie doesn't make you a sociopath. At all. By your logic or mine.

No, not entirely, but enjoying sociopathic content is sociopathic.

Except... you're wrong. And you've missed the mark by about a mile.

People enjoy movies that can get a reaction out of them, whether it makes them laugh, cry, make them anxious. Shocking and grossing them out is absolutely no different. They know it's fake, and they can appreciate when something (fictitious) can have the same effect. That doesn't mean they have mental problems. The fact that these movies even have an effect in fact proves that they don't have mental problems.

The trainwreck effect also comes into play here.

If they know it's fake, why was the director of Cannibal Holocaust brought up on legitimate murder charges, albeit charges that were later dropped once he proved the content in his "film" was not real (the human parts, at least)?

You think someone who not only enjoys watching films where a man rapes a woman, implied or not, for nine minutes, or where a man dismembers another human being in gruesome detail, but doesn't feel the urge to turn away and to label the acts and depictions deplorable is 100% sane and sound of mind? Seriously? Worse yet, you think they're as human as the rest of us who actually do label it deplorable?

A hugely ignorant, most likely politically based arrest and hearing doesn't really give your argument any water. Anybody reading that would be like, "Seriously? That court was fucking stupid," rather than actually believing that someone tried to release a snuff film.

It's silly to even bring it up. There's no reason why anyone should have believed that they were watching a snuff film.

By that same account, they never should have thought the animals in the film were truly tortured and killed either, right?

I'm sorry, but just because you have the mental capacity/understanding to differentiate between implied violence and real violence (which I honestly don't believe is true anyway, at least not in the sense that you could do so with any content presented to you without ever getting anything wrong) does not mean others are wrong or stupid for not having the same abilities.

Did you just compare violent movies with snuff-rape-child porn?

Yes, because they're on the same level as being sociopathic. Please do not insult my intelligence or anyone else's here by trying to split hairs with what exactly constitutes ultra violence and what does not — acts of barbarism are acts of barbarism, and some of these films, from what I've read, tread the waters of sociopathic content greatly, regardless of whether they depict snuff-rape child porn or simply a nine-minute scene where a man rapes a grown woman.

 

[JGlass]

I remember there was a thread made a while back that discussed things that should never be portrayed in a movie, and general consensus was things like child murder, rape, etc.

I was talking with Uncle Phatso last night about this subject and it got us to discussing various painful shit that has happened over the course of our lives. Without going into too much detail, I don't want to watch similar things happen to people in more brutal fashion. It could be a result of having a very active imagination, but I almost feel as if I'm being physically harmed when I watch really grotesque and brutal movies or videos, which is why I tend to stay away from them.

That said, I fall on Doc's side of the debate here. Just because I don't like them doesn't mean they're objectively wrong. As long as no one or nothing was actually harmed in the making of the scene, I see no reason that they shouldn't be made if there's a sizable group of people that get enjoyment out of it.

 

[jmt225]

Dexter is one of the best and most critically acclaimed television shows of the last decade... it contains a ton of gore and violence, and it asks the audience to sympathize with the title character, who is a serial killer.

I rank I Saw the Devil a 4.5/5 in my sig... that movie contains some of the most violent and goriest scenes I've ever seen in film.

Now, why are these two examples consider such high entertainment when both are so violent? Because A) the violence is fake, and B) by witnessing the "bad guys" commit the crime, we as a viewer grew legitimate hatred for them, so when the "revenge" comes... it's all the more satisfying and enjoyable. It would be much harder to root for the good guys in these films if the bad guy's acts are only "said" and we don't get a glimpse of the terror they caused.

Pieces of shit getting what they deserve make for awesome movies since it hardly ever happens in real life, but most of the time, it'll only work if we get to see the bad guy in action. If we saw the Teenage Mutant Turtles go kick Shredder's ass just because of something they heard he did, and we actually didn't get to see it ourselves... wouldn't that take away from the story? Of course it would. If we don't see Joker cause the havoc like he did in the Dark Knight first hand, does the movie remain as good as it is? Nope, it doesn't. Some films just go to a more extreme measure to evoke a reaction out of the audience, and sometimes it works, like in the film I Saw the Devil.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

We all realise that pretty much everyone in this thread hasn't seen half the films they're bitching about right? Cool just clearing that up.

 

[justinsayne]

[youtube]1C-PUkTQvnc[/youtube]

That is literally what keeps popping into my head after reading the last few posts made by IDR, you had a valid point at the beginning of this thread, however now you're get being ridiculous bro

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I remember there was a thread made a while back that discussed things that should never be portrayed in a movie, and general consensus was things like child murder, rape, etc.

I was talking with Uncle Phatso last night about this subject and it got us to discussing various painful shit that has happened over the course of our lives. Without going into too much detail, I don't want to watch similar things happen to people in more brutal fashion. It could be a result of having a very active imagination, but I almost feel as if I'm being physically harmed when I watch really grotesque and brutal movies or videos, which is why I tend to stay away from them.

That said, I fall on Doc's side of the debate here. Just because I don't like them doesn't mean they're objectively wrong. As long as no one or nothing was actually harmed in the making of the scene, I see no reason that they shouldn't be made if there's a sizable group of people that get enjoyment out of it.

I'll ask again:

Hypothetical scenario — my neighbor enjoys watching implied snuff films where six-year old girls are raped and then have their throats cut. There's nothing wrong with this? Seriously?

You think it's OK that he finds this content acceptable, or that it's actually made accessible? You think it's OK to depict, despite the fact it's only implied and not real, content that could actually be mistaken for a legitimate snuff film where children are raped and then murdered?

I'm sorry, but freedom has it's limits.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

No, not entirely, but enjoying sociopathic content is sociopathic.

I enjoy the show Dexter. Regularly depicts sociopathic behavior, considering the show's title character is a sociopath.

You calling me a sociopath?

If they know it's fake, why was the director of Cannibal Holocaust brought up on legitimate murder charges, albeit charges that were later dropped once he proved the content in his "film" was not real (the human parts, at least)?

That's a great question. They were fucking ******ed charges, and the person bringing them up on those charges should be barred from practicing law in their country.

You think someone who not only enjoys watching films where a man rapes a woman, implied or not, for nine minutes, or where a man dismembers another human being in gruesome detail, but doesn't feel the urge to turn away and to label the acts and depictions deplorable is 100% sane and sound of mind? Seriously? Worse yet, you think they're as human as the rest of us who actually do label it deplorable?

Rape scenes are almost universally portrayed in an extreme negative light, and only exist to serve a narrative purpose. Show me a credible film where a rape scene is just there for fluff/fap material.

If you say Irreversible, I am done having this conversation with you.

By that same account, they never should have thought the animals in the film were truly tortured and killed either, right?

That's a completely different law dealing with a completely separate group of people who deal with animal violence.

I'm sorry, but just because you have the mental capacity/understanding to differentiate between implied violence and real violence (which I honestly don't believe is true anyway, at least not in the sense that you could do so with any content presented to you without ever getting anything wrong) does not mean others are wrong or stupid for not having the same abilities.

Dude, you don't even know my first name, let alone knowing anything about my mental capacities. How about I flip this on you.

Just because you lack the mental capacity/understanding to differentiate between implied violence and real violence, does not mean others are mentally insane for having the ability.

Yes, because they're on the same level as being sociopathic. Please do not insult my intelligence or anyone else's here by trying to split hairs with what exactly constitutes ultra violence and what does not — acts of barbarism are acts of barbarism, and some of these films, from what I've read, tread the waters of sociopathic content greatly, regardless of whether they depict snuff-rape child porn or simply a nine-minute scene where a man rapes a grown woman.

Look, you can't differentiate between real, fake, or implied violence, but that is a personal problem. People aren't insane simply because you can't comprehend ideas that don't revolve around your own mental (and quite frankly, intellectual) capacity.

One last thing: This is the cage, right?

You're a fucking moron, to Sully degrees, for comparing a violent movie to snuff-rape-child porn. And an asshole.

 

[JGlass]

I'm sorry, but freedom has it's limits.

That's some George Orwell shit right there.

And you're hypothetical scenario is invalid, because that type of film wouldn't be allowed to be produced, much less distributed, by most governments, meaning your neighbor is partaking in illegal activity and changing the situation completely.

If it was an 18 year old woman, though, I'd still find it very disturbing, but if he gets some sort of morbid enjoyment out of it, who am I to judge? I don't understand it, but most people don't understand my fascination with professional wrestling, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't keep on watching it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Freedom does NOT have limits, however, it doesnt make the people who abuse that fact fucking scumbags.

 

[justinsayne]

I'm assuming I'm wrong & am a bad person for finding that humorous...

 

[Coco]

I refuse to accept that extreme violence being used to draw a reaction and enhance a story has no place being appreciated by any mature film-goer. I also have trouble believing that just because the violence makes the strongest impact on the viewer that there's no other possible redeeming quality to a film.

You know what used to be criticized for its depictions of violence? Sergio Leone's westerns. And now they're blown on a regular basis for their artistic value. In a similar way, I think future standards will validate select films that use today's standard of ultra-violence to supplement and enhance and already fantastic film.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I refuse to accept that extreme violence being used to draw a reaction and enhance a story has no place being appreciated by any mature film-goer. I also have trouble believing that just because the violence makes the strongest impact on the viewer that there's no other possible redeeming quality to a film.

You know what used to be criticized for its depictions of violence? Sergio Leone's westerns. And now they're blown on a regular basis for their artistic value. In a similar way, I think future standards will validate select films that use today's standard of ultra-violence to supplement and enhance and already fantastic film.

when that becomes the standard result, yes. Hardly the case now.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I enjoy the show Dexter. Regularly depicts sociopathic behavior, considering the show's title character is a sociopath.

You calling me a sociopath?

No, for two reasons:

1. I said people who enjoy sociopathic content are sociopathic, not sociopaths. The former implies tendency, the latter is completely defining. In a sense we're all sociopathic in one way or another, but the degree to which we are is what is at stake here.

2. Dexter depicts sociopathic behavior that's been given a heroic twist where though the main character is in fact a sociopath who murders other human beings, his moral code drives him only to murder those who've wronged others and "deserve" to die. There's a degree of his acts being admirable you're miring to make an overly generalized point that all things sociopathic are committed by utter sociopaths.

That's a great question. They were fucking ******ed charges, and the person bringing them up on those charges should be barred from practicing law in their country.

Look, this point is moot, because I'm never going to actually watch the scenes written about in this "film", so I can't attest to the degree of realism they portray.

Rape scenes are almost universally portrayed in an extreme negative light, and only exist to serve a narrative purpose. Show me a credible film where a rape scene is just there for fluff/fap material.

If you say Irreversible, I am done having this conversation with you.

I can't, because I avoid watching them, but I can tell you that having nine minutes of a film depict an act of rape is overboard. No question about it.

That's a completely different law dealing with a completely separate group of people who deal with animal violence.

I'm not questioning the law, Roach, I'm questioning the humanity behind anyone who enjoys watching it.

Dude, you don't even know my first name, let alone knowing anything about my mental capacities. How about I flip this on you.

Just because you lack the mental capacity/understanding to differentiate between implied violence and real violence, does not mean others are mentally insane for having the ability.

Read what I wrote to Doc:

No one said it makes you insane. READ what I wrote. I'm not going to type the same things twice. If you continue to blatantly ignore what I am saying, I'm not going to bother wasting my time responding to your responses here.

I said it is inhuman to enjoy these things. I said there is something wrong, mentally, with anyone who enjoys these things. That is not the same as saying they are "insane". Insanity is a generalized term that's too often used to describe people who are "crazy". I'm not so obtuse as to generalize anyone who enjoys sociopathic content as just "crazy", but I wouldn't disagree that they themselves are in a sense sociopathic for enjoying it.​

Look, you can't differentiate between real, fake, or implied violence, but that is a personal problem. People aren't insane simply because you can't comprehend ideas that don't revolve around your own mental (and quite frankly, intellectual) capacity.

See above.

You're a fucking moron, to Sully degrees, for comparing a violent movie to snuff-rape-child porn. And an asshole.

Then we're done here, since you can't have an objective discussion without having to revert to childish insults as part of a retort. When you want to act like an adult again, I'll read what you have to write.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Ehhh. Seriously? We're going to let this happen?

We're letting another poster get away with spouting sensationalist shit without any basis behind it besides his own moral views just because he can string a sentence together?

I feel like I'm calling people out on this every year.

 

[Coco]

when that becomes the standard result, yes. Hardly the case now.

You've already admitted to having not watched any of the films in question. What would you know about it?

 

[JGlass]

Ehhh. Seriously? We're going to let this happen?

We're letting another poster get away with spouting sensationalist shit without any basis behind it besides his own moral views just because he can string a sentence together?

I feel like I'm calling people out on this every year.

This thread has a distinct Animal Farm feel to it, and the TNA fan is a pig.

 

[Coco]

You know what else is inhuman? Enjoying 90% the meat you eat and not thinking about the way those animals have been abused needlessly. I want to see IDR up in arms about this as well. Or does the fact that we aren't invited to watch this violence on a regular basis make it less inhuman?

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

This thread has a distinct Animal Farm feel to it, and the TNA fan is a pig.

I'll be Farmer Jones, who just gets the fuck out and doesn't deal with any of that windmill shenanigans.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

You've already admitted to having not watched any of the films in question. What would you know about it?

Possibly what the people whom have seen them have said about them?

Ive read up on all of them, as well. Every one, the overwelming reaction was the explicit violence, not filmaking, story, or character development

Do you not recall the conversation we had about the series Sparticus? Do not tar me with the same brush as IDR, my good man

 

[It's Damn Real!]

You know what else is inhuman? Enjoying 90% the meat you eat and not thinking about the way those animals have been abused needlessly. I want to see IDR up in arms about this as well. Or does the fact that we aren't invited to watch this violence on a regular basis make it less inhuman?

Topic for another discussion, but I'll gladly discuss it with you if you want to know my feelings on the matter.

 

[Coco]

Possibly what the people whom have seen them have said about them?

That's nice. Most people I know who have seen The Wire overemphasized Omar Little being a faggy badass. Does that mean the show has no merits beyond that? I wouldn't take people's word for anything.

Ive read up on all of them, as well. Every one, the overwelming reaction was the explicit violence, not filmaking, story, or character development

Early reaction to Sergio Leone's westerns also emphasized the violence. You shouldn't trust those early gut reactions.

Do you not recall the conversation we had about the series Sparticus? Do not tar me with the same brush as IDR, my good man

I might have done it in a glib, joking way. But I'm not in the same boat as IDR. That show bored me if anything. I have no problem with some violence in an awesome show though. I'm on a decent Game Of Thrones kick right now.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

That's nice. Most people I know who have seen The Wire overemphasized Omar Little being a faggy badass. Does that mean the show has no merits beyond that? I wouldn't take people's word for anything.


Early reaction to Sergio Leone's westerns also emphasized the violence. You shouldn't trust those early gut reactions.


I might have done it in a glib, joking way. But I'm not in the same boat as IDR. That show bored me if anything. I have no problem with some violence in an awesome show though. I'm on a decent Game Of Thrones kick right now.

I mean folks who fancy themselves as aficianado's on such films. None of them have claimed they are anything special. Just go look at the thread in question.

Your last paragraph has been my point all along. Regaurdless, it is my personal feelings that some things, in no way, benefit anything other than being subtle. Rape, child killing, etc etc. In any case ive seen, such things are just as powerful and well represented in conveying what they are to convey without being overdone and gratuitous. Its just simply unecessary in every case that I have seen. Mind, I feel the same way about sex scenes, most of the time. Far too often these things are just there to be there, and do nothing to further anything that subtlety could not have done just as well.

Even Sparticus, which was a series I fucking LOVED and watched non stop for two days, had FAR too much explicit, over the top material for my tastes. However, the story it was attached to was just far too fucking good to quit on.


Very rarely the case.

 

[jmt225]

Alright IDR, sorry but man I need to call you out on some major hypocrisy here, bro.

I remembered you mentioning your fandom of Death Metal in the past, so I decided to look up some of your music posts and see what kind of songs you've passed around here as good. Here's one example, it's called Bloodrocuted by Dethklok. I'm sure there are worse cases, but I just picked this one right away based off the name. Here are the lyrics:

You've been targeted in the night
By violent mercenaries.
Your identity's been confused
With one that looks like you
You're a simple man living life.
You are an electrician.
But there's a bounty on your head
A billion unmarked travelers checks.

RUN

Find your way deep into the woods.
The dogs can smell your path.
Try to find a way out of this.
There seems to be no chance.
Bounty hunters closer to you.
Start to remember back.
When you studied biology
Back in your high school class.

Wait now, what did they say
About the human body and proportions of things?
Blood is an energy conductor.
I am full of that all I need is an outlet.
They're getting closer
But now you have a plan.
Lead them to the generator
Where there's solid land.
The concrete floor will do just fine
And electric outlets.
Open up your veins and splash the blood
And hit the power lines.

Bloodrocuted
Bloodrocuted

You'll be bloodrocuted
You'll be bloodrocuted

You'll be bloodrocuted right now

Enemies stand dead in your blood.
The stench of cooking skin.
All of them with their hair on end
Their eyes exploded in.
You stand with your arms bleeding still
You cannot stop the flow.
Though you are the victor tonight
Your time has come to go.

Go go go go go go
Your time has come to go
Go go go go go go
Your time has come to go

Wait now, what did they say
About the human body and proportions of things?
Blood is an energy conductor.
I am full of that all I need is an outlet.

Bloodrocuted

You said this earlier in this very thread:

I value human life. Visualized, scripted and recorded acts of barbarism and brutality do the exact opposite and objectify the very acts to the point they can be voted upon the way people might vote on best comedic act in a play or film, which IMO is wrong.

Now, imagine I take the lyrics to that song and made a movie about it... where exactly is the difference? Do you not see how hypocritical that comes off?

You also said:

I said it is inhuman to enjoy these things. I said there is something wrong, mentally, with anyone who enjoys these things.

Shouldn't that same statement apply to you since you like music such as the trash I posted above?

Dude, death metal contains more filth than any movie I've ever watched. It's shitty, no talent noise that does nothing but spread violence and negativity. There's no "art" behind it, yet you enjoy it enough to glorify it and recommend other people to listen to it.