WWE New York, Round 3, Match 2: #5 Randy Orton vs. #12. The Ultimate Warrior

[Milkyway!]

You guys have to help me here. I'm 50/50 I probably wont even vote on this one. I'm a huge Orton mark, and a loathe the Warrior. Orton can work some pretty nice stuff here and there, I love to watch him in the ring unlike some people. His promos, make him dang near amazing these days though. Based on inring skills, my concious will not allow me to vote for Randy Orton in this match. Warrior, has a pinfall over Hulk Hogan, when Hulk was damn near unbeatable. Randy is no Hulk Hogan, I mean, he has the potential to be, but potential, doesnt win matches. But the fact of the matter is, Randy takes advantage of your mistakes, plays a head game, and plays it great. Warrior was botchy, and made A LOT of mistakes. Leaving lots of room for an RKO, and possibly a punt to the head.

 

[SavageTaker]

People say that The Ultimate Warrior was, well botchy.

I think that actually works in his advantage. Now let me explain myself:

You see if he botches a move, he can possibly injure someone, which would then increase his chances of winning the match.

So if he injures Randy Orton, because of a botched move, he has the advantage because Orton won't be able to perform at 100%. And Warrior will be at 100%, so that wouldn't work out to well for Orton.

So overall, I think that being botchy, somewhat works to his advantage.

 

[gd]

Please tell me you are not seriously implying that Warrior is as intelligent as the Cerebral Assassin, Warrior is the guy who sprinted to the ring, then sprinted laps around the ring then when he finally got in the ring he would shake the ropes violently, half the time he was spent before the danm match ever started which is the reason most of his matches lasted less than 5 fucking mins., smart wrestlers don't "blow their wad" before the match begins, they pace themselves, ever notice that the guys who are known for being ring great ring psychologist tend to walk to the ring slow (Taker, Trips, Orton, etc.), they take their time and make their opponent think about it, they also see to be the guys that can go the distance if necessary, Orton just has to last 10-15 mins. by then Warrior will be completely exhausted and when he goes for his Gorilla Press slam, Orton will just counter out hit the RKO and Punt Warrior skull off his damn shoulders and pin Warrior for the win

By no means am I saying that Warrior is smarter than Triple H. I'm saying that Randy Orton's smarts wouldn't be a huge advantage. Warrior's size and strength advantage would far outweigh Orton's "smarts" advantage.

 

[Tastycles]

There have basically been a few arguments levelled at Warrior, pretty much all summed up by the post which I will look at below.

Ugh, using the WM12 match to put Warrior over is a fucking joke, Triple H was a jobber at that point in his career, you mind as well post a match with Warrior going over the Brooklyn Brawler while you're at it

I agree that no selling the pedigree means almost nothing. But I don't think anybody had ever kicked out of the leg drop when he did it. He had body bag matches with Undertaker that he didn't lose, despite being tombstoned, which would certainly suggest that he is capable of not being phased by the big moves. 1990 Hogan Atomic Leg drop and 1991 Undertaker Tombstone are definitely better finishers than Orton's RKO.

Orton is much more calculating and sadistic then the vast majority of the guys Warrior as faced in his career, and all he needs to do is "out-smart" Warrior (which shouldn't be hard seeing as how the guy is such a fucking ******),

Warrior may run around like a fucking ******, but when has he ever been outsmarted in the ring by anyone. Obviously, he's not some cool and collected ring genius, but he doesn't actually do anything stupid.

He beat Honky Tonk Man, who had spent over a year sneakily beating faces, then he defeated Rick Rude and Hercules, who had Bobby "THE BRAIN" Heenan, so the smartest manager in the business didn't outwit him, he beat DiBiase, I could go on. The fact that he has never been eliminated in a Survivor Series match, where the goal is to outlast people, would suggest a degree of intelligence also.

So he may look like a mong, and he may be one in real life, but he isn't one in the ring.

also lets not forget Orton can it the RKO out of nowhere, not saying that will win the match for him but if he can connect on the RKO and put Warrior down, then he can hit the punt as Warrior is getting up, and the combination of the RKO and Punt being hit back to back WILL keep Warrior down for a three count

This appears in just about every argument for Orton. Ask yourself this, though. How many times has Orton used the punt in a one on one match? There aren't many, it's mostly used as a promo device, and if not that, it is used in multiple man matches were the opponent is distracted. This match is one on one, and Warrior rarely, if ever, gets distracted, as proven by his big wins over Bobby Heenan. Bobby Heenan is better at being a ringside heel than anyone Orton has ever had in his corner consistantly, so Warrior wins this one.

 

[The Todd]

This appears in just about every argument for Orton. Ask yourself this, though. How many times has Orton used the punt in a one on one match? There aren't many, it's mostly used as a promo device, and if not that, it is used in multiple man matches were the opponent is distracted. This match is one on one, and Warrior rarely, if ever, gets distracted, as proven by his big wins over Bobby Heenan. Bobby Heenan is better at being a ringside heel than anyone Orton has ever had in his corner consistantly, so Warrior wins this one.

The punt hasn't been used that much as the RKO usually puts people away. In the rare instances it doesn't, ala HHH, he then used the punt. Which he could do to Warrior. Are you trying to say that Orton wouldn't use the punt against Warrior because he doesn't normally use it? Orton would do anything to win, especially use the punt.

Warrior would batter Orton around, but all it takes is one RKO to drop him and then the punt to pin him. Anyone who tries saying the punt wouldn't pin Warrior is talking out their arse. It's ended careers, and shelved people. It can definitely put Warrior down for three seconds.

 

[BooCocky]

Ultimate Warrior was able to withstand five Elbow Drops by Randy Savage...I think Orton needs to come to the fight with a little more than a Punt and an RKO. Warrior was insane, and kicked out of multiple finishers. Finishers that were far better than the Punt and the RKO. Warrior never made mistakes. Warrior wins this fight with a Gorilla Press drop and a Running Splash.

 

[The Todd]

I think Orton needs to come to the fight with a little more than a Punt.

Finishers that were far better than the Punt.

A punt that has ended the career of Rob van Dam. A punt that has had Shawn Michaels and Batista out for months. A punt that has kept HHH out of action for two weeks so far.

A finisher is meant to knock someone out for three seconds. Orton's knocks them out for weeks.

If they cause that much damage to those individuals, how can it not put Warrior down for three seconds? Are you trying to tell me if Orton hits the punt Warrior jumps straight back up?

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Are you trying to tell me if Orton hits the punt Warrior jumps straight back up?

I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm seen The Warrior stand up after everything. They breed them tough in Parts Unknown.

To punt The Warrior, Orton has got to get him at a punting height. That'll be half the battle. An RKO could do it, but it's just as likely he could stand straight back up after one. He's done it to every signature move he's been hit with, so it's not out of the realms of possibility.

 

[BooCocky]

it's already been stated that he hardly hits the punt in a regular match anyway. You have to get the Warrior to the ground first, then you have to keep him on the ground long enough to set up the punt. Which seems like an impossible task...

I am just going to post this, people hardly ever kicked out of 1, the Ultimate Warrior kicked out of five, and it wasn't even that close of hitting a three count. Go to the 8 minute mark and see the ease of Warrior handling the 5 Elbow Drops. [youtube]m28azo3rlEQ[/youtube]

Besides, in Warriors prime he has beaten the best, and some with ease, Orton can't really say that. Which is another reason to vote Warrior.

 

[The Todd]

I agree getting Warrior in position for the punt will be difficult, it will need an RKO and a quick punt before Warrior jumps back up, but IF Orton gets the punt he wins. None of the finishers he has kicked out of knocks people out for weeks, the punt does. Yeah it looks shit as a move, but in kayfabe it has to be the deadliest move in history.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I haven't seen many quick punts off Orton. If you think he's done a quick one it's because you didn't see him coming. He frequently sets them up or he has to slide in when a wrestler is pinning another wrestler or a similar situation.

I'm yet to see him hit an RKO then jump up and hit a punt immediately. If he did it like that then he wouldn't have the required force.

 

[The Todd]

Thanks for the video. In the first minute and 20 seconds, I have seen the Warrior throw himself over the top rope, and Savage drop him with a fist to the back. At three minutes he misses his splash and stays down for a couple of seconds. THEN add the fact that he stayed on his back all that time whilst Savage hits the five elbows.

Before your post I thought the only thing stopping me from definitely voting Orton was the fact he might not keep Warrior down for long enough to hit the punt. After seeing that, I'm sure Orton will be able to do it.

I'm not counting the excuse "Orton doesn't use the punt in matches often" the fact is he does now and again when it's needed. Against Warrior it will be needed therefore he will use it.

 

[Tastycles]

There's no such thing as a quick punt. He ALWAYS does a run up.

RVD was finished by a DDT onto concrete, he won their match. Orton can beat people up outside of matches, big deal.

The fact that the RKO doesn't finish everyone off is proof enought that it will be inneffective. Warrior got straight up from a tombstone, which is effective on everybody, the RKO isn't so Warrior probably won't even be on the ground for one second.

The punt to Michaels was in a HBK v Edge match, the one to HHH was in a tag match, Batista was a handicap match. All of the others bar the one to Slaughter have been in backstage segments or people not involved in the match, like Cenas dad.

So, if you want to rest your hopes on a finisher that Orton has pulled off on a 59 year old Sgt. Slaughter, then go ahead, but my money is firmly on Warrior, who has shown time and again that finishers just don't work on him.

 

[The Todd]

So, if you want to rest your hopes on a finisher that Orton has pulled off on a 59 year old Sgt. Slaughter, then go ahead, but my money is firmly on Warrior, who has shown time and again that finishers just don't work on him.

Ok, scratch the ones you have proved wrong then, but that still leaves HHH. He is the modern day wrestler that likes kicking out of everyones finishers. He kicked out of the RKO then was punted and hasn't been seen for two weeks. I would also say Orton is in his prime now, so that example is the one I will use.

Orton hits the RKO, and instead of going for the pin like he did with HHH, he would back into the corner. As Warrior starts to get up, Orton would hit it. There is no way I will accept an argument that Warrior can kick out of the punt if it connected. Sure, he might not be out for a month afterwards, but I am damn sure he would be out for three seconds.

 

[Tastycles]

Yes, but the only reason he was put in a position to be punted was because HHH was distracted by the other participants in the match.

When HHH got up from the RKO, it was very slow, as if he was struggling to stand. When the Warrior got up from finishers, he just stood straight up, Orton wouldn't be able to punt him.

Finally, HHH kicking out at two after a Twist of Fate is absolutely nothing on Warrior standing straight back up after a tombstone. Not even Kane, who famously took 3 of them, could do that. Warrior takes no selling to a whole new level.

 

[SavageTaker]

See Pebble what you fail to realize is that if Orton hits the RKO, Warrior will just bounce right back up.

In Warrior's match against The Undertaker, taker hit his tombstone, a move that in kayfabe would be considered better than the rko, and he pinned warrior and warrior kicked out at 2 and immediately got up. Not even struggling like HHH did after the rko.

My point is that he didn't even struggle getting up from the tombstone and many other moves that are considered better than the rko in kayfabe.

So if Orton would start backing into a corner it and get ready to hit the punt, it would be useless because it is evident that warrior can get up quickly after a finisher, so Orton wouldn't be fast enough to hit the punt.

 

[The Todd]

I've just seen a video where he lays on the floor for an age and takes five elbow drops in succession. The first elbow was hit after a scoop slam. If he can stay down for that long off a scoop slam, he can stay down for long enough off of an RKO. This tombstone you are on about, I haven't actually seen it, but if Taker had time to cross his arms and get a two count, Orton has long enough to back into a corner and start his run up. If Warrior had kicked out instantly then I would have conceded to you.

 

[SavageTaker]

Ok you make a good point about The tombstone.

But if you look at other videos there's finishers that he got up immediately from. And some of those finishers were considered far more devastating than the RKO.

About him staying down after a scoop slam, well you do realize that the match had already been going for more than 15 minutes, so he was obviously exhausted. I can tell he was exhausted because after he got pinned he didn't get up immediately, something he always did, without struggling.

BTW Tastycles in my other post i didn't copy you, it was just that i had thought of that but didn't post it immediately because i had to go do something.

 

[Tastycles]

I've just seen a video where he lays on the floor for an age and takes five elbow drops in succession.

But when he gets up, how does he get up? Does he struggle to his feet? Or does he stand straight back up. The fact that this was after a lengthy match with a far superior wrestler to Orton also seems to have been lost in translation.

The first elbow was hit after a scoop slam. If he can stay down for that long off a scoop slam, he can stay down for long enough off of an RKO.

He stays down until the elbow drop, but when he gets up, he is completely unaffected by it. RKO, Orton goes to the corner, does the sizing up thing, starts running, oh, Warrior is on his feet. Clothesline, clothesline, clothesline, Warrior splash. Thanks for coming.

This tombstone you are on about, I haven't actually seen it, but if Taker had time to cross his arms and get a two count, Orton has long enough to back into a corner and start his run up. If Warrior had kicked out instantly then I would have conceded to you.

​

It's about 10:30. It is a two count, but he kicks out and gets straight up, before being hit with the urn, for which Taker is dq'd. But, the point is he gets up, there's no hesitance to get to his feet.

Whenever he's down, he either gets straight back up, or up at the ropes. At the ropes, Warrior no sells literally everything, doesn't react to moves at all. If he gets straight up in the middle of the ring, nothing happens. Orton would not be able to get the punt in, because Warrior gets up too quickly, or at the ropes.

 

[justinsayne]

So the pro-Warrior camps biggest argument is that Warrior didn't know how to sell a finisher, so basically he should move on because he is an absolute shit wrestler, the fact of the matter is that there is no chance in hell Warrior is going to get within 3 seconds of taking an RKO and a punt, and as I beleive I said in an earlier post if Orton can last more then Ten mins. and can get Warrior dumb ass to chase him around Warrior will be exhausted, and Orton will be able to take advantage, that's when he will hit the RKO and then the Punt, with out hesitation, and the combination of both finishers is what will keep Warrior down for the 3 count. Orton wins

 

[SavageTaker]

But Justin who is to say that Warrior won't try and make Orton chase him around. If Warrior does that then he could possibly avoid both the RKO and The Punt.

If we have Orton chasing Warrior we know that they both will get exhausted eventually, but that is when Warrior could capitalize, We know that Warrior can go for a pretty good length in a match, show signs of exhaustion and then suddenly be Re-energized.

Also You do know he can watch some tapes of Randy Orton, and Orton can do the same, So Warrior will have learned what to do in order to not run into and RKO or A Punt. Also, Warrior will have learned how to not fall in any of Orton's traps.

 

[Tastycles]

So the pro-Warrior camps biggest argument is that Warrior didn't know how to sell a finisher, so basically he should move on because he is an absolute shit wrestler, the fact of the matter is that there is no chance in hell Warrior is going to get within 3 seconds of taking an RKO and a punt,

It isn't that he didn't know how to sell a finisher, it was his character to overcome the odds. If he lost matches then got up and walked off, that would be not knowing how to sell, but he no sold because it was his character trait. I suppose Hogan hulking up is shit too, is it? What about the urn coming out for the Undertaker.

and as I beleive I said in an earlier post if Orton can last more then Ten mins. and can get Warrior dumb ass to chase him around Warrior will be exhausted, and Orton will be able to take advantage, that's when he will hit the RKO and then the Punt, with out hesitation, and the combination of both finishers is what will keep Warrior down for the 3 count. Orton wins

Randy Savage is better than Orton in every single way possible, but most notably here, in terms of speed and stamina. Warrior wrestled Savage for over 20 minutes and won. He may run around constantly, but he doesn't get tired. He's like a small child in that respect.

Something that people appear to be missing is the fact that to even get the RKO on Warrior, Orton will have surpassed himself. Warrior made a career of dominating people quickly, and I don't even se Orton managing to hit Warrior with the RKO. If he does, he won't be staying down for a punt, a move that Orton has succesfully accomplished once in a 1 on 1 match up, against a 59 year old man. To call it his finisher is stretching it a little.

You can think that Warrior is a dick. You can think that his matches looked shoddy, but the fact of the matter is that the man didn't lose, didn't get pinned, and who absolutely oozed charisma. Warrior wins here, and I think he should probably win the whole thing, but he's the best in this region.

 

[justinsayne]

But Justin who is to say that Warrior won't try and make Orton chase him around. If Warrior does that then he could possibly avoid both the RKO and The Punt.

If we have Orton chasing Warrior we know that they both will get exhausted eventually, but that is when Warrior could capitalize, We know that Warrior can go for a pretty good length in a match, show signs of exhaustion and then suddenly be Re-energized.

Warrior is smart enough to go into this match with any other stategy then the one he went into every fucking other match, use his power to finish it quickly, Warrior would not make Orton chase him, he wouldn't be able to wait to get his hands on Orton, which is why it would make more sense for the ring psychologist that is Orton to keep away from him in an attempt to get Warrior to chase him

Also You do know he can watch some tapes of Randy Orton, and Orton can do the same, So Warrior will have learned what to do in order to not run into and RKO or A Punt. Also, Warrior will have learned how to not fall in any of Orton's traps.

Yeah cause Warrior was the type of guy who watched tapes to prepare for a match, once again need I remind you Warrior wasn't all that bright and that he ran into every single match with the pretty much the exact strategy

 

[SavageTaker]

Warrior is smart enough to go into this match with any other stategy then the one he went into every fucking other match, use his power to finish it quickly, Warrior would not make Orton chase him, he wouldn't be able to wait to get his hands on Orton, which is why it would make more sense for the ring psychologist that is Orton to keep away from him in an attempt to get Warrior to chase him

Ok you do make a good point. But there is still a possibility that the Warrior will change his Game Plan. But in case he doesnt...then the match is going to have the same outcome of many of his other matches. He is going to gorilla press slam Orton and give him a splash.


Also, Warrior was booked as an unstoppable force... Maybe even more unstoppable than Hogan himself.

So if Orton can even manage to dominate Warrior, there's going to come to a point where the fans will rally behind Warrior and he is going to just No sell everything, because nothing can stop him. He is going to get up start his routine of shaking up the ropes...Orton will be shocked that the unstoppable one is still not down. He will go for the rko and Warrior will get up and finish him off.

When Warrior pins Orton the fans will erupt and the unstoppable one will continue to the next round.

 

[BooCocky]

The Warrior has had long matches where he ran around the ring without getting tired. Seemingly, he can run around like a lunatic, yet he can still go twenty minutes. Warrior is just that good and should win this whole damn thing.

Get him on the ground is hard, pinning him for three seconds will be even harder.