What is wrong with spot matches?

[Slyfox696]

What the fuck is a spot monkey?

A wrestler who goes from spot to spot, without logical transitions from one spot to the next.

Is it the character that is wrestling or is it the guy who is playing the character that is wrestling?

It's the guy who doesn't understand how his character would go from one spot to the next logically, and in a realistic fashion.

Me thinks you forgot to look at the differences between spot monkey and high flyer. They are not the same.

Me thinks you didn't read my posts.

Spot monkey is what I guess you would see at indy shows.

And on television.

High flyers are what you see on television. They do not do risky moves as often as indy wrestlers and they "fly" around because they are smaller and lighter than other more basic looking wrestlers.

High flyers and spot monkeys are definitely not the same thing. However, other than that, I don't think you're right about anything else.

The WWE has several spot monkeys. Guys like Morrison just stand out more because his spots are high risk.

It seems like the hillbilly infection caught on in this forum and many of you dolts forgot to seperate kayfabe and reality and.

Yes you fucking did. All of you. Well...almost all of you, but it's close enough to round up to all of you. So yeah, all of you did.

What's funny is if you had bothered to read my posts, you wouldn't be typing some of the silly stuff you are now.

John Morrison can't wrestle and he's a spot monkey?

First of all, I HATE the whole "can't wrestle" thing. That's just stupid. But is Morrison a poor wrestler and a spot monkey? Absolutely.

Oh, that's not what you said?

I said exactly what I meant to say.

Hmmm. It seems to me that you think these wrestlers just pop out of the ground at WWE Headquarters and then they are on RAW or SD. You think that because you are stupid and watch wrestling incorrectly. But that's ok. No one can tell you how to watch.

John Morrison for example who was on Tough Enough and then went to OVW got all the way to the main event scene by spotting on everything?

Oh, so going through Tough Enough and OVW suddenly means a guy is a great worker? Hey, Alex Riley was in OVW/FCW (one of the two) he was on NXT, he must be a great in-ring worker too, right?

Very interesting since a lot of his moves remind me of a young Shawn Micheals. Who by your definition is/was a spot monkey.

Moves? Who the fuck cares about moves? What the hell does offensive moves have to do with being a good wrestler?

And as someone who watched Shawn Michaels from the beginning of his time in the WWE to the end, I can honestly say NOTHING about John Morrison reminds of a young Shawn Michaels. Michaels was a far better worker in his younger days than Morrison is now.

Morrison has gotten better over the years, but he's still a poor worker. That's why he's been languishing in the midcard for so long, despite the fact the WWE has obviously worked hard to get people to believe he's a legitimate threat.

These spot monkeys are always smaller guys who have to go up against bigger guys. So...say it with me...they need harder more impactful moves to even the odds.

It's obvious you don't have the first fucking clue as to what you're talking about. Being small has nothing to do with being a spot monkey.

High flyers. Repeat it until you understand it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Repeat it until you understand it.

And to the OP, there is absolutly nothing wrong with being entertained by high flying wrestlers.

No, there isn't. But there IS something wrong with poor wrestlers who ONLY have high spots to get them over. There is nothing wrong with being a high flying wrestler, as long as you're a good worker. But guys like Morrison simply aren't good workers, and thus, they HAVE to have high spots in order to make fans care about them. And when they work their matches, because they are poor performers, their spots are poorly transitioned into, so it's obvious (painfully so, at times) that the two guys are building up towards a spot. Those guys are spot monkeys.

To me a spot monkey is wrestler who gets no reaction whatsoever until he pulls out a high flying spot. Best example I can currently think of is Sin Cara. Yeah I'll say it, if it wasn't for all of his high flying stuff, he'd be the masked evan bourne. A wrestler that the majority of folks don't give a shit about. I also consider Sabu to be a spot monkey. A spot monkey is a guy who at least half of their wrestling arsenal is a high flying spot, where as a high flyer is a guy who will do high risk moves, but won't do them all the time.

No, you've got it wrong. A spot monkey has nothing to do with high spots. You can work a grounded wrestling game, and still be a spot monkey. It's just that the high flyers are more prone to be noticed for being such poor workers, since their spots are so much more flashy.

 

[The Crock]

I'm not a big fan of spot matches. Generally, the chemistry of a match, the flow of the match, both things are very important to the overall quality. In a spot match, they don't have that. There aren't any subtle mannerisms, none of the small things, you're just trying to get a cheap pop. The major issue with that is that getting a cheap pop does nothing for the longevity of your character. If I only pop for you when you do a Shooting Star Press, what am I going to do when you're executing simple maneuvers, I won't care. By being dependent on spots, you're basically saying that a wrestler NEEDS to do that to win the match. If I, as a fan, am groomed to believe that, would I believe he could win from executing more simple maneuvers? No, sir. This is the reason that "spot monkeys" generally don't carry the World Title. They're not believable and it takes a LONG time of not relying on spots to finally get the fans to get behind the guy and support what he's doing in the ring. This is why guys like John Morrison and Kofi Kingston struggle with that.

Aside from his drug problems, I'm sure that this is one of the reasons it took Jeff Hardy so long to "grab the brass ring." While he had an enormous fan base because of all the spots he was doing, I sure as heck didn't think he could beat a guy like Triple H without having to do something absolutely insane. His matches usually don't tell a story, he usually just goes in, gets the crap beaten out of him and then makes a quick comeback and hits a big spot and wins. That formula works sometimes, as he is a multiple time World Champion, but I'd rather see a guy who can get in the ring and show me some drama. Someone who can get me emotionally invested into a match and spot monkeys just aren't those guys.

Most of the indy wrestlers I have seen around here are more mat based wrestlers and not spot monkeys.

To me a spot monkey is wrestler who gets no reaction whatsoever until he pulls out a high flying spot. Best example I can currently think of is Sin Cara. Yeah I'll say it, if it wasn't for all of his high flying stuff, he'd be the masked evan bourne. A wrestler that the majority of folks don't give a shit about. I also consider Sabu to be a spot monkey. A spot monkey is a guy who at least half of their wrestling arsenal is a high flying spot, where as a high flyer is a guy who will do high risk moves, but won't do them all the time.

Not at all, a spot monkey is a guy that does big spots, regardless of the style. Mick Foley was at times a spot monkey, reliant on absolutely destroying himself for any reaction. The little chain wrestling is a spot too, it doesn't necessarily have to be aerial moves, while that is the general thought that comes into people's minds.

Now, spot monkeys can get reactions, especially for said spots. What would the point be if they didn't get a reaction? They rely on spots to get them a reaction because, in all likelihood, they are very bad in other parts of their game and can't get a reaction otherwise.

 

[Remix]

Most of the indy wrestlers I have seen around here are more mat based wrestlers and not spot monkeys.

Believe it or not, the two are not mutually exclusive. Richie Steamboat (and I love him to bits) was a spotmonkey, but for the mostpart his spots were armdrags and pages out of his Dad's playbook. He's better now though.

To me a spot monkey is wrestler who gets no reaction whatsoever until he pulls out a high flying spot.

Nope. It's someone whose matches are little more than spots poorly strung together in no logical order.

Best example I can currently think of is Sin Cara.

I'll judge him when he's had a non squash match against someone better than fucking Primo.

Yeah I'll say it, if it wasn't for all of his high flying stuff, he'd be the masked evan bourne.

So your point is that a wrestler who's over for his high spots but wears a mask would be the same as a wrestler who's primaraly over for his high spots? I don't follow you there.

A wrestler that the majority of folks don't give a shit about. I also consider Sabu to be a spot monkey.

You're right with Sabu, but wrong with the first sentence. People can give a shit about spotmonkeys. People care very much about wrestlers they like and some spotmonkeys are very popular. Look at Petey Williams. He's a spotmonkey but people A) love his finisher and B) want him back to help revitalise the X-Division.

A spot monkey is a guy who at least half of their wrestling arsenal is a high flying spot, where as a high flyer is a guy who will do high risk moves, but won't do them all the time.

A spot is any sequence of moves that's preplanned and coreographed. This match is an utter spotfest but the number of high flying moves performed in it is 1.

[YOUTUBE]VPbRcST6ICU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[3/4 Facelock]

Ah Slyfox696. A multiquoter. Love it so much. Instead of responding to my post with a post of your own, you split mine up and respond to it as if we’re actually having a live conversation where you can interrupt me and feign being a smartass.

I did read your posts. In fact I read all the posts before I posted. What I find interesting is the way you talk. It’s like you know more about wrestling than all of us on this forum even including actual wrestlers. I am amazed such a person exists let alone on the internet.

But let me try this quote thing:

Moves? Who the fuck cares about moves? What the hell does offensive moves have to do with being a good wrestler?

It looks like with that one sentence you have shown me and the IWC and anyone else who comes here off the internet how not to argue or debate a point. You should not contradict yourself while you are going on your multiquoting rampage.

The offensive moves have quite a bit to do with being a good wrestler. “Good” being a subjective opinion. I can sit here and write a dissertation on high flyers vs spot monkeys, but no matter what I say or how much proof I put behind it, hillbillies like you are never going to understand. That’s okay. It’s not for you to understand.

Just know this…the fact that you call these professional wrestlers “spot monkeys” just shows how little you understand about wrestling and wrestlers. Just because a wrestler does a few spots during a match, it doesn’t qualify as spot monkey. Like I said, spot monkeys are indy and backyard guys where the only thing they do is spots. WWE and TNA guys are high flyers because they do that thing….what’s it called….oh yeah….wrestle.

So if a wrestling match has a few spots (which nearly all of them tend to do) it’s okay. It’s wrestling. There are many different styles. That’s what makes it great.

By the way, I don’t understand why you dislike Morrison so much. I’ll give you that he was a spot monkey once upon a time as all high flyers tend to be at first, but he refined his craft and can now chain together various moves. The guy can wrestle. He’s shown it over and over again. His agility is second to none. What’s the problem? You don’t like the way he looks? Your boyfriend said he was cute and it made you jealous? You don’t like his backstage attitude even though we should only give a shit about what goes on in the ring and we are guys and gossip and backstage TMZ-style drama is for ladies and 16 year old kids?

One more of your quotes:

No, you've got it wrong. A spot monkey has nothing to do with high spots. You can work a grounded wrestling game, and still be a spot monkey. It's just that the high flyers are more prone to be noticed for being such poor workers, since their spots are so much more flashy.

A spot monkey has nothing to do with high spots? Isn’t that the basis of your argument? I never even heard of such a thing as ground spot monkeys. That is your 2nd contradiction and it’s at the end of your multiquoted post. You canceled out your point twice now.

You’re just rambling now and trying to win the argument/debate/conversation. That’s fine. I just wanted to make a point based on a different view point than yours. If you do respond back, please try to do it in a cohesive post and not a multiquoted one. We are not having a live conversation so do not try to make this one. Instead, focus on sticking to your point and not contradicting yourself at the beginning and end.

Remember…use paragraphs. You can do it buddy. I believe in you.

 

[Slyfox696]

Ah Slyfox696. A multiquoter. Love it so much. Instead of responding to my post with a post of your own, you split mine up and respond to it as if we’re actually having a live conversation where you can interrupt me and feign being a smartass.

Oh, I don't have to feign it, I do it quite well.

But the reason I split your post up is because I disagree with multiple parts of it, and it's just much easier to show where I think you're wrong. The more times I break up your post, the more wrong you are.

I did read your posts.

Then you didn't comprehend them well?

Because what you said was untrue. So either you didn't read/comprehend them, or you lied. Feel free to take a side.

It looks like with that one sentence you have shown me and the IWC and anyone else who comes here off the internet how not to argue or debate a point. You should not contradict yourself while you are going on your multiquoting rampage.

I contradicted myself because I said moves have nothing to do with being a good wrestler? Do you even understand what the word "contradict" means? Because the way you used it, I'm guessing no.

The offensive moves have quite a bit to do with being a good wrestler.

No, it doesn't, not in relation to being a spot monkey.

I can sit here and write a dissertation on high flyers vs spot monkeys, but no matter what I say or how much proof I put behind it, hillbillies like you are never going to understand. That’s okay. It’s not for you to understand.

Plus you can save your time writing a dissertation which is based upon your lack of knowledge of wrestling that anyone with a half a brain wouldn't take seriously in the first place.

It's a win-win situation. You don't waste your time, and I don't have to go out of my way to ignore it.

Just know this…the fact that you call these professional wrestlers “spot monkeys” just shows how little you understand about wrestling and wrestlers. Just because a wrestler does a few spots during a match, it doesn’t qualify as spot monkey.

Who said it did? And you say you read my posts.

Here's what I said:

You don't understand what a spot is. A spot is any pre-planned moment of a match. For example, the majority of the Savage vs. Steamboat match was planned ahead of time, thus included many many spots. The problem I have is not with the pre-planned moment of the match, but rather with the transition and the build-up to the spot. If you are transitioning well between your spots, building up the storyline as you go, there is nothing wrong with any spot, including a high spot. But if your match is simply random, and you go to a spot, any spot, without building towards it, then it's a lack of pro wrestling ability.

You can even click that little arrow and it takes you back to the post I originally said it in.

Maybe now that I've posted it twice, you'll take the time to read/comprehend it at least once.

Like I said, spot monkeys are indy and backyard guys where the only thing they do is spots. WWE and TNA guys are high flyers because they do that thing….what’s it called….oh yeah….wrestle.

So if I go to the WWE, I can instantly transform from a spot monkey to a high flyer. That's great, all I have to do is change the company I work in and I become a much better worker.

Surely this seems stupid, even to you.

By the way, I don’t understand why you dislike Morrison so much.

Who said I disliked him? I just said he's not very good.

Don't get me wrong, I do find him incredibly boring and wish he would go away, but that really has nothing to do with this thread or what I've previously said.

I’ll give you that he was a spot monkey once upon a time as all high flyers tend to be at first, but he refined his craft and can now chain together various moves. The guy can wrestle. He’s shown it over and over again. His agility is second to none. What’s the problem? You don’t like the way he looks? Your boyfriend said he was cute and it made you jealous? You don’t like his backstage attitude even though we should only give a shit about what goes on in the ring and we are guys and gossip and backstage TMZ-style drama is for ladies and 16 year old kids?

Your post almost made me crack a smile, especially that elementary school style putdown about having a boyfriend, but in the end, I decided it really wasn't that clever.

Chaining moves together has nothing to do with being a spot monkey. Again, if you had read my posts, you would have known that.

A spot monkey has nothing to do with high spots? Isn’t that the basis of your argument? I never even heard of such a thing as ground spot monkeys. That is your 2nd contradiction and it’s at the end of your multiquoted post. You canceled out your point twice now.

That doesn't even make sense. You obviously don't know what the word "contradict" means. Please refer to a dictionary and then get back to me.

And yes, you can be a spot monkey without doing high spots. Again, if you had read my posts in this thread, you would see where I said that.

You’re just rambling now and trying to win the argument/debate/conversation. That’s fine. I just wanted to make a point based on a different view point than yours. If you do respond back, please try to do it in a cohesive post and not a multiquoted one. We are not having a live conversation so do not try to make this one. Instead, focus on sticking to your point and not contradicting yourself at the beginning and end.

Remember…use paragraphs. You can do it buddy. I believe in you.

I'll make you a deal. You learn the meanings of words, take time to read/comprehend my posts, and come up with more clever insults than the ones my 4th grade students use everyday, and then I'll start responding to your posts with paragraphs.

The ball is in your court.

 

[3/4 Facelock]

Alright, where do we start? It’s quite difficult to respond to your post since you continuously use one or two sentence paragraphs and have refused to use full paragraphs unless I completely agree with what you are saying.

Believe it or not (I take it you won’t) I did read your paragraphs and did comprehend them. I just disagree with them. Doesn’t make me wrong, and most certainly doesn’t make you right.

My goodness you are a contradicting machine today:

I contradicted myself because I said moves have nothing to do with being a good wrestler? Do you even understand what the word "contradict" means? Because the way you used it, I'm guessing no.

There is no such thing as a good wrester who has terrible moves. Moves have everything to do with being a good wrestler because wrestlers use….!gasp!….wrestling moves. Wrestling. Moves.

Moves. Wrestling Moves.

Ok, let’s take your definition of a spot. I agree with you 100% since that is exactly what a spot is. My disagreement is with you thinking that pro wrestling is full of spot monkeys.

You specifically used John Morrison as an example of a spot monkey. Remember that?

Good. Let’s continue…

He does not fit into your definition of what a spot monkey is. He chain wrestles which by your definition is transitioning well between spots and building up a storyline in the ring. Therefore by your own definition John Morrison is not a spot monkey even though you were saying he is.

That is an example of contradiction. Which is what your postings are loaded with. Being cutesy and funny doesn’t take away from that no matter how hard you do it. It’s okay to be wrong. Sometimes I am wrong. Most often you are wrong. It helps build up your debating skills and helps solidify your point of view. It should help you transition out of multiquoting and actually having a real solid debate. At the age of 26 you should have these skills already but you’re from Missouri and their school system is pretty terrible and 15 years behind the rest of the country so I do not hold it against you for not understanding how discussions work.

If we hopped into my time machine and went back to 1997 you would probably be very close to 100% correct. But wrestling has evolved since then and people don’t want to see (on a weekly basis) Sabu flipping over barbed wire and New Jack jumping off balconies to put guys through tables. Nobody wants to see Shane McMahon fall off the set of Unforgiven to see Kane roll out of the way and Shane miss him.

Spot monkeys have a serious lack of wrestling talent. And people like Evan Borne and Sin Cara and John Morrison have serious wrestling skill. Whether you see it or not is irrelevant. Going though ROH and Dragon’s Gate and then OVW for Evan Borne made him a better wrestler. Going through Tough Enough and OVW for Morrison made him a better wrestler.

You know, the more you learn and the more you practice, the better you become. They teach that kind of common sense down by you, no?

Say it out loud…better wrestler. Not better spot monkey. Better wrestler.

Spot monkeys are a thing of the past ma’am. Attitude Era is over and extreme risk takers are not on main rosters or shown on television. You are using out-dated terminology to express your disdain for high flying action.

So let’s rewind quite a bit back to the topic at hand: “What is wrong with spot matches?” I see nothing wrong with spot matches. All matches should have a few spots to keep the audience entertained and amazed. Too many and you risk the crowd burning out. Too few and you get a boring match (i.e. Any HHH match in the past 7 years).

Sigh….

I really wish I could change your mind, but it seems like we will not agree with each other’s point of view. I can see yours, but do not think it’s correct. You can’t even fathom mine.

Let’s just move on.

I’ll respond to some other topics and finish my work day off and you can do what other people from Missouri do…wear cut-off sleeve denim shirts, chew skoal, and listen to 80s rock.

Stay rad.

 

[Slyfox696]

My goodness you are a contradicting machine today:

And you obviously didn't look up the word "contradict" in the dictionary. It's okay, I didn't expect you to, but I had hoped.

There is no such thing as a good wrester who has terrible moves. Moves have everything to do with being a good wrestler because wrestlers use….!gasp!….wrestling moves. Wrestling. Moves.

Moves. Wrestling Moves.

For someone who claims to be 30 and wants people to think he/she is intelligent, you sure are dropping the ball. I'll tell you what, I'll just link you to another post I made regarding this subject and save myself time:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showpost.php?p=3065647&postcount=31

THAT is what makes someone a good wrestler. The fact you're focused on only one, and relatively minor, aspect of pro wrestling and claiming it's what makes a good wrestler just makes you look dumb. Despite your inability to comprehend what I've written and your refusal to consult your dictionary, you do seem halfway intelligent, at least compared to some of the morons on this board. Hopefully, you can understand why your assertion that John Morrison's moves, which remind you of Shawn Michaels, doesn't mean that John Morrison is anywhere near the caliber of Shawn Michaels.

If you want to think Morrison is that good, feel free, but to claim he's as good as HBK because of the moves he uses is simply asinine, especially considering HBK's greatest strength was always in his selling ability, not his offensive moves. And that's not just my opinion, HBK himself said that in his book.

Ok, let’s take your definition of a spot. I agree with you 100% since that is exactly what a spot is.

I know it is. I said it before you posted in this thread. You obviously didn't read/comprehend my post.

You specifically used John Morrison as an example of a spot monkey. Remember that?

Good. Let’s continue…

He does not fit into your definition of what a spot monkey is. He chain wrestles which by your definition is transitioning well between spots and building up a storyline in the ring. Therefore by your own definition John Morrison is not a spot monkey even though you were saying he is.

No, you've missed the point. Randomly throwing moves together doesn't mean they make sense. I'll give you an example.

I start with a drop kick, which knocks you down briefly but you get back to your feet quickly. Then I punch you once, run away from you, climb to the top rope, do a cross body block, pick you up by your hair, drag you to one corner, punch you once again, drag you to the opposite side of the ring just to whip you into the ropes and dropkick you in the knee.

See how there's absolutely no logic in doing things the way I mentioned. I'm just randomly throwing moves and punches around, with no thought as to WHY I'm doing it, or how it builds the story of the match.

So just because Morrison does a bunch of moves, doesn't make him any less of a spot monkey. All insults aside, does that make sense?

That is an example of contradiction.

It's not a contradiction, it's you just not comprehending what I'm saying. That's a you problem, not a me problem.

Sometimes I am wrong.

This thread is certainly proof of that.

Most often you are wrong.

That's what most of the ignorant wrestling fans say around here. And yet, MY theory on professional wrestling always holds true with regards to which wrestlers are the most popular/biggest draws and the ones who are counted upon to lead their companies.

If we hopped into my time machine and went back to 1997 you would probably be very close to 100% correct. But wrestling has evolved since then and people don’t want to see (on a weekly basis) Sabu flipping over barbed wire and New Jack jumping off balconies to put guys through tables. Nobody wants to see Shane McMahon fall off the set of Unforgiven to see Kane roll out of the way and Shane miss him.

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying in this entire thread. Haven't you been paying attention?

Spot monkeys have a serious lack of wrestling talent.

I know...I said that several times before you posted in this thread. I think you're lying about having read my posts.

And people like Evan Borne and Sin Cara and John Morrison have serious wrestling skill.

I've been impressed with Sin Cara, and Bourne hasn't really had much of an opportunity to work a longer match yet. But Morrison? No, just no. His pro wrestling ability is not that good. If Morrison were to stop doing flips and high spots tomorrow, people would stop caring about him. That's not good wrestling skill, when the only way you can get over is with high spots. That's an indication of a LACK of wrestling skill.

Whether you see it or not is irrelevant. Going though ROH and Dragon’s Gate and then OVW for Evan Borne made him a better wrestler. Going through Tough Enough and OVW for Morrison made him a better wrestler.

I'm sure it made him a better wrestler. Doesn't it mean it made him a GOOD wrestler.

You know, the more you learn and the more you practice, the better you become. They teach that kind of common sense down by you, no?

Of course, and I have also already mentioned Morrison is better than he was. But again, that doesn't mean he's GOOD. Improving is not the same thing as being good. That's something else they taught us down here in our neck of the woods. It's a shame they didn't bother with dictionary lessons where you went to school.

Say it out loud…better wrestler. Not better spot monkey. Better wrestler.

Now you say it with me. Better does NOT equal good. Better does NOT equal good.

Spot monkeys are a thing of the past ma’am.

Guys like Morrison definitely prove otherwise.

So let’s rewind quite a bit back to the topic at hand: “What is wrong with spot matches?” I see nothing wrong with spot matches.

Then again, you don't really understand terminology very well, so...

I really wish I could change your mind

I'm sorry I can't come down to your level of thinking.

but it seems like we will not agree with each other’s point of view. I can see yours, but do not think it’s correct. You can’t even fathom mine.

Because you don't understand the terms you're using. Spend a little time learning the definitions of words, and then we can talk again.

Let’s just move on.

See ya.

I’ll respond to some other topics and finish my work day off and you can do what other people from Missouri do…wear cut-off sleeve denim shirts, chew skoal, and listen to 80s rock.

Stay rad.

80s rock? In Missouri? No, we wear cowboy hats, drive to the outhouse on our John Deere tractors and have George Strait blarin' out on our boombox.

But at least we know how to use a dictionary. Which automatically makes us better than you.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Spotfests take away from the actual art of pro wrestling, everything becomes about the spots instead of telling a story. There is no real skill to spot matches, its doing stunts for the sake of doing stunts and not about telling a story and having a good match.

There's nothing wrong with spots in matches if adds something to the match but if not then its just the easy way out. Wrestlers who do nothing but spot fests do that because they have no ring psychology, thats why hardcore wrestling often gets a bad rep too, because 9/10 there is no art to hardcore wrestling and spot fests, its just violent and it lessens a wrestlers career and health if he is doing spot fests and hardcore matches galore.

Wrestling is supposed to tell a good story and its supposed to be believable. Spot matches are neither.