Sin Cara officially makes his debut on Raw.

[Sparky]

I'm sold. It was a great match with the only problem was It made Primo look just as good as Cara which didn't make any sense. The guy comes out and attacks Shaemus and then it looks like he only Just managed to defeat a guy like Primo? The botch wasn't his fault and even if it was it won't be the last time somebody botch's a move. As long as he don't wrestle Orton and botch he will be fine. .

It will be interesting when he wrestles with a big guy, but at the moment I'm a fan.

The only thing I cringed at was how he ends up landing on his arm when he does his finisher. Is that what's supposed to happen? It looks like an accident waiting to happen.

 

[jellmoo]

Primo got in offense because he was the heel. Have any idea how awful a squash by a spotter looks? The match was a cara SHOWCASE. One of his best traits are his face in peril, which they SHOWCASED. It was a short match, he didn't look weak against Primo. It put Cara over as tough and he won with some flashy stuff.

cracks me up how stupid most of the IWC is when it comes to basic booking principles. Hmmm, what does a babyface need to do well? Sell (face in peril) and have good comebacks, which can either be done through fire (Cena, Austin, Orton) or through flash (HBK, Mysterio, Cara).

How would YOU have booked his match? he comes in, hits 15 hurricarana variations, then his finish? that's a gymnastics routine that the American audience would shit all over.

Please. If you want to showcase the notion of a "face in peril" then you book a match with a heel of some relevance. A face that struggles to defeat a Superstars level jobber is not a glorious debut.

There are two ways to debut a new Superstar that has been heavily pushed via vignettes and run ins.

1) Have him squash somebody lower on the card.

2) Give him a competitive match with a solid mid card or higher superstar.

You don't book him to have trouble beating a guy with zero relevance that other superstars routinely steamroll. It makes the debuting wrestler look weak, especially when he has been promoted as an "international superstar".

 

[Trill Co$by]

I wasn't too mad about Primo getting some offense here. I mean the Colon family are well known in Puerto Rico, which is a heavy lucha libre based country in terms of their wrestling so Primo was pretty much very accustomed to the style which also makes him someone who can counter Sin Cara. Sure, he's a jobber to the brawler/power house type in the WWE, but when he's matched with someone on his level or with his style, he should be able to counter it more because he knows it more.

As for TWC's continuous rant on Sin Cara, for whatever reason, he's not grasping the reality that nobody's perfect and the fact that Sin Cara actually took time to sell the botch as an actual move is actually a blessing to the WWE. Sin Cara's entrance probably should be switched but if he can just be booked at a few more house shows and get it right then I wouldn't mind him doing it. Then again, the way he enters the ring now reminds me of Hakushi.

And for those complaining about his finisher not being realistic to use on a big guy... news flash, it's not impossible for a wrestler to have two finishers. Kane and Taker have the chokeslam and a secondary (either Powerbomb or Tombstone) and there are more wrestlers who also have an extra move that they can use when they DO fight a bigger guy. His finisher is fine for the lighter guys and I have no problem with it. I'd like to see Chavo moved to Raw and see Sin Cara feud with him.

 

[jellmoo]

I wasn't too mad about Primo getting some offense here. I mean the Colon family are well known in Puerto Rico, which is a heavy lucha libre based country in terms of their wrestling so Primo was pretty much very accustomed to the style which also makes him someone who can counter Sin Cara. Sure, he's a jobber to the brawler/power house type in the WWE, but when he's matched with someone on his level or with his style, he should be able to counter it more because he knows it more.

The problem is that Primo simply isn't relevant, at all, to the casual WWE fan. His family history doesn't play a whole lot of importance, rather, it's just a case of a jobber looking competitive against a featured Superstar. If Primo meant more than it would have been fine to have a competitive match. The problem is that he doesn't mean more. Sheamus defeated Daniel Bryan in something of a squash match, and Bryan means a lot more than Primo does.

As for TWC's continuous rant on Sin Cara, for whatever reason, he's not grasping the reality that nobody's perfect and the fact that Sin Cara actually took time to sell the botch as an actual move is actually a blessing to the WWE. Sin Cara's entrance probably should be switched but if he can just be booked at a few more house shows and get it right then I wouldn't mind him doing it. Then again, the way he enters the ring now reminds me of Hakushi.

I see your point, but I think the results he has shown so far indicates that he is simply trying too hard to do things that are overly difficult. When they work, sure, they are incredibly visually impressive. When they don't though, they don't look so good. Instead of going for several such spots whenever he is featured on TV, I think he needs to dial it back a bit. A botch here or there won't hurt him, but several in a row in a single outing will.

And for those complaining about his finisher not being realistic to use on a big guy... news flash, it's not impossible for a wrestler to have two finishers. Kane and Taker have the chokeslam and a secondary (either Powerbomb or Tombstone) and there are more wrestlers who also have an extra move that they can use when they DO fight a bigger guy. His finisher is fine for the lighter guys and I have no problem with it. I'd like to see Chavo moved to Raw and see Sin Cara feud with him.

This is simply personal preference. I don't like finishers that:

A) Require massive setup (getting the guy on the top rope, and working both of you into position).

B) Look like the opponent is doing just as much to make it happen as the guy pulling the trigger.

What Sin Cara pulled hits both of those very hard, so I hope that he in fact uses another finisher.

Fo Sin Cara to have a meaningful feud with Chavo, they need to build the guy up first. It's just like Primo, right now he doesn't mean anything. I think it could be a very solid feud, but it would have to be executed right for the fans to get behind it.

 

[TheTallOne]

Other then a few botches here and there, he really impressed the hell outa me. Plus its always great to make your debut match impressive for BOTH men. Primo impressed me as well. So other then the botched finish, this was a fantastic debut for Sin Cara. I only hope people backstage dont hold him back because of a few missteps.

 

[berlinbrawler]

From Wrestlezonecom:

I know there already was a fan report from WWE's Glasgow house show, but the guy forgot to mention a big part of the night.

Primo vs. Sin Cara was filled with botched spots, mostly from Primo, at one point he stopped mid irish whip stood for 2 seconds then ran.

But the bigger problem was Sheamus coming out and attacking Sin Cara, Cara went for the Head Scissors into the Arm Bar and botched it TWICE!, he then tried to do a move in the corner and missed that too.

Cara also dropped the trampoline entrance.

If that is true then Sin Cara may once and for all have arrived in the dog house. Vince is probably furious at Cara's clumsiness.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

part of lucha is having a strong base. Why else would lucha guys always miraculously have amazing matches with certain guys (like claudio castagnoli)?

WWE guys aren't used to the style. It's part of what I say where cara needs to adapt his style.

I'm not dooming Cara to be a shit wrestler like people think. I'm just saying the botch at the end didn't have to look as bad as he made it. If you think he sold the fall at all then you're blind. the crowd groaned. Right now they're feeling things out.

Another thing people don't think about are those shitty loose WWE ropes. A lot of guys that utilize the ropes say that WWE's nylon ropes, which look and apparently feel totally different than your standard rubber w/ wire going through them ropes. I bet the extra slack throws him off.

There is also a difference between a "bump" ring and a "lucha" ring. "Bump" rings have more bounce than "lucha" rings. Lucha rings are harder so it's easier to balance when basing for a guy. The WWE ring is built for huge ass guys to bump on. Not for lucha guys to fly and roll around on.

right now Cara looks like if you put travis pestrana on a bicycle. He'll prolly still do cool shit, but I bet he'd mess up a lot too.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Why are you so hung up on Cena, when he has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation? I already told you I wouldn't say anything if it had been Cena instead of Sin Cara, and I even have a Cena banner in my sig. I made my name on these forums for defending Cena. Why do you keep bringing him up when he has nothing to do with this?

You're being completely unreasonable in your expectations, and you've not ONCE addressed the flaws I've pointed out in your plans, other than to say he's a "world class" "professional", which has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the human brain can process information, or how much time the WWE gives him in his segment.

Address that, and then we can talk. Until then, you're just shouting at the rain.

Okay, he's a world class performer, which means his brain CAN function faster than the average human being. Like I said in my earlier post, what if Owen Hart just went with the plan vs Austin?

Second, Vince and the staff bitched at him like crazy apparently for making the finish look like shit. I think Vince would rather the finish look good and run maybe 15 seconds over than look like shit. Selling the fall more, and letting primo punch him like 2 or 3 times before punching him back 2 or 3 times doesn't take up that much time.

Yes, he is human and yes humans make mistakes. However, it WAS a mistake and it WAS just as much Cara's fault as Primos for how shitty the finish looked. Primo initiated it but this huge star Cara didn't cover it like a true pro does. Is that harsh? Yea.

I've defended Cara before. Read my posts on "lucha ring" vs "bump ring" and nylon ropes vs cable/rubber ropes, guys experienced with lucha basing vs guys who only know the American style.

All I'm saying is that this match wasn't that great, Primo didn't impress anyone except for on here, and the finish was flubbed by both guys.

Please. If you want to showcase the notion of a "face in peril" then you book a match with a heel of some relevance. A face that struggles to defeat a Superstars level jobber is not a glorious debut.

There are two ways to debut a new Superstar that has been heavily pushed via vignettes and run ins.

1) Have him squash somebody lower on the card.

2) Give him a competitive match with a solid mid card or higher superstar.

You don't book him to have trouble beating a guy with zero relevance that other superstars routinely steamroll. It makes the debuting wrestler look weak, especially when he has been promoted as an "international superstar".
__________________

How do flyers 'squash' someone? Also, who that's a solid midcarder has the lucha experience it appeared Primo had (he looked familiar with how to move, he botched but like I said, it could be lucha ring vs bump ring).

The match was lke 5 min, any match in 5 min or less that you win doesn't look like a struggle. Cara's offense is primarily high flying stuff, you can't have your match a squash of that, the American audience would shit all over it. I don't see it as a problem. Besides, he'll be moving on soon and people will forget about it.

 

[Slyfox696]

Okay, he's a world class performer, which means his brain CAN function faster than the average human being. Like I said in my earlier post, what if Owen Hart just went with the plan vs Austin?

No, just no. Being a world class performer doesn't mean your brain functions faster. That's just a silly assertion.

As far as Owen goes, did Owen have to come up with the finish in less than 15 seconds? No, he didn't. Even Owen Hart didn't know what to do when Austin was hurt, so he spent a minute just playing to the crowd and stalling for time.

Even your example proves you wrong.

Second, Vince and the staff bitched at him like crazy apparently for making the finish look like shit. I think Vince would rather the finish look good and run maybe 15 seconds over than look like shit. Selling the fall more, and letting primo punch him like 2 or 3 times before punching him back 2 or 3 times doesn't take up that much time.

1. Source?

2. Isn't Sin Cara new? As in, as only been up with the WWE for a couple weeks? He's supposed to know everything about how the WWE runs?

3. As I said before, when you have a few days to think of this, it's pretty easy to see what SHOULD have been done. When you're running close to the end of your time as a brand new performer in front of thousands of fans in one of your first matches, I bet your thinking becomes a little more cloudy.

Yes, he is human and yes humans make mistakes. However, it WAS a mistake and it WAS just as much Cara's fault as Primos for how shitty the finish looked. Primo initiated it but this huge star Cara didn't cover it like a true pro does. Is that harsh? Yea.

And ridiculous, you forgot to mention that part.

I've defended Cara before. Read my posts on "lucha ring" vs "bump ring" and nylon ropes vs cable/rubber ropes, guys experienced with lucha basing vs guys who only know the American style.

It doesn't really matter to me if you've defended him before, you're now bashing him over something silly.

All I'm saying is that this match wasn't that great, Primo didn't impress anyone except for on here, and the finish was flubbed by both guys.

The finish was flubbed, but that doesn't mean you can expect either performer to be able to think as quickly as you are wanting them to, or it doesn't mean that the time allotted to their segment was going to be extended.

At the end of the day, you're criticizing Sin Cara for being human, and not having the mental process of a human being. He's not a computer, he's a human being, and there's only so much one person can think of in the split second he falls from the top rope to the floor. Being "world class" has nothing to do with it.

 

[jellmoo]

How do flyers 'squash' someone? Also, who that's a solid midcarder has the lucha experience it appeared Primo had (he looked familiar with how to move, he botched but like I said, it could be lucha ring vs bump ring).

They squash an opponent the same way any other superstar does. By having considerably more offense than their opponent, and making the win look easy. Being a high flyer doesn't make this any different.

The opponent should not matter. What are they going to do from this point forward, have Sin Cara wrestle nobody but Primo and Chavo? If Sin Cara cannot have a meaningful match with other Superstars because there is a clash of styles, then there is a problem.

The match was lke 5 min, any match in 5 min or less that you win doesn't look like a struggle. Cara's offense is primarily high flying stuff, you can't have your match a squash of that, the American audience would shit all over it. I don't see it as a problem. Besides, he'll be moving on soon and people will forget about it.

Of course you can have a squash in a match like that. It's very simple. Sin Cara hits a flashy move, plays to the crowd. Another flashy move, plays to the crowd. Primo tries to attack, big reversal. It's been done time and again. A high flyer can squash an opponent just like anybody else.

An American audience expects it. They expect that the freh new face with all the attention and special vignettes is going to squash a guy like Primo, who is a jobber. It's the natural order of things. This was his debut match, his only chance to make a first impression. And instead of looking like a million bucks and a legit threat to a guy like Sheamus, he ended up looking like he makes too many mistakes and can barely handle a guy like Primo.