Seems the WWE officials talked to them after the match and they may cut the trampoline trick from his entrance. I think nerves and the pyro going off right when he gets to the trampoline throw him off too much. Still he looked great in that match and the botch wasn't a breaker because the announce team and Cara recovered quickly. Only a few showings form Sin Cara and I am already hooked. Imagine him in a match with like Morrison or Bourne!
Sin Cara officially makes his debut on Raw.
- Thread starter LFC till i die
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trendkiller
The Voice of Reason
Well, I'm not convinced he's the second coming of Rey Mysterio just yet. I haven't really checked up on his lucha work (mostly because I'm not a fan of the flippity-floppity-swingset thing) but I'll keep an eye on him.
No doubt he's an athletic guy, but until I've seen him actually work an angle and hold his own in a story (both in and out of the ring) I'll reserve my judgement.
He could easily go the way of Matt Sydal and become the flashy-ooh-aah-move performer, no matter his talent, skill or popularity, unless he gets a mouthpiece.
Say, where's Jimmy Hart when you need him?
No doubt he's an athletic guy, but until I've seen him actually work an angle and hold his own in a story (both in and out of the ring) I'll reserve my judgement.
He could easily go the way of Matt Sydal and become the flashy-ooh-aah-move performer, no matter his talent, skill or popularity, unless he gets a mouthpiece.
Say, where's Jimmy Hart when you need him?
berlinbrawler
Lovable Curmudgeon
I feel kinda bad for Sin Cara. A lot of things have gone wrong already since his debut, and most of it wasn't his fault. If they set up the trampoline too close to the ring there is not much he can do. Likewise if his opponent slips and pulls him off the turnbuckle it's not his fault. But still, his first impressions left are that he is a botchfest.
Also I disagree that it was good that Primo looked so strong in this match. this match wasn't for him. It was to showcase this exciting new star. Making him have to work hard to beat a scrap like Primo makes him look like he's no big deal.
Good for Primo, that he go some match time to show off, but it's not like anything is going to come from it. Primo is looking at the future endeavor axe hovering over his head.
Also I disagree that it was good that Primo looked so strong in this match. this match wasn't for him. It was to showcase this exciting new star. Making him have to work hard to beat a scrap like Primo makes him look like he's no big deal.
Good for Primo, that he go some match time to show off, but it's not like anything is going to come from it. Primo is looking at the future endeavor axe hovering over his head.
Primo is the one that screwed it up. Sin Cara was carrying Primo the whole way. The botch was caused because primo lost his footing and Sin cara fell forward because of it. What else was he supposed to do?
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
Cara fucked it up by half assing his selling of the fall, then, like a spot monkey, completely redoing the finish. It made the match look incredibly phoney. WHo gives a shit if Primo fell, Cara should go with it instead of halfway selling it after obviously hopping off.
You guys don't get "he fucked up" vs "he didn't help it and make it work". In wrestling you fuck up, but you can't be a robot trained to do exactly what was planned. What if Owen Hart did the planned finish vs Austin?
You guys don't get "he fucked up" vs "he didn't help it and make it work". In wrestling you fuck up, but you can't be a robot trained to do exactly what was planned. What if Owen Hart did the planned finish vs Austin?
The botches, though I feel like I should be up in arms about them, surprisingly aren't as bothersome as I think they should be to me. I see Sin Cara fall off the top (via Primo slipping, yes) and yet I'm still thinking...dude I want to see this ending spot...
Sorry Slyfox, I agree he should have sold that fall a little bit more if for no other reason than being dropped off the top rope every other time in any other match is devastating and the person that falls to the floor always stays down longer than that. He hit the ground "hard" and just popped up like he just meant to do it. I wasn't a fan of that...
...but again, all that said I have loved his in ring performance. Even when he had the problem on his initial ring entrance against Sheamus I immediately forgave him for it and loved watching him work. I loved the spot with Swagger, and everything but his reaction to the fall I loved it.
Cara carries himself so well. The confidence he exudes is like nothing else I've ever seen in someone his size. I swear when I first saw him, I thought he was at least one foot taller, and then he got in the ring with Sheamus and I was like "Whoa....that's.....that's messed up!" I'm looking forward to next Monday to see what he does.
Sorry Slyfox, I agree he should have sold that fall a little bit more if for no other reason than being dropped off the top rope every other time in any other match is devastating and the person that falls to the floor always stays down longer than that. He hit the ground "hard" and just popped up like he just meant to do it. I wasn't a fan of that...
...but again, all that said I have loved his in ring performance. Even when he had the problem on his initial ring entrance against Sheamus I immediately forgave him for it and loved watching him work. I loved the spot with Swagger, and everything but his reaction to the fall I loved it.
Cara carries himself so well. The confidence he exudes is like nothing else I've ever seen in someone his size. I swear when I first saw him, I thought he was at least one foot taller, and then he got in the ring with Sheamus and I was like "Whoa....that's.....that's messed up!" I'm looking forward to next Monday to see what he does.
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
Here's how he should have taken it. He should have hopped off on his feet, showing his agility, not selling the fall because guys DO hop off onto the floor without getting hurt as long as it's under their control. Then whipped the shit out of Primo, then hit his finish.
OR, sold the fall, climbed up, had Primo fight back a little until Cara got the advantage, then hit the finish.
he needs a new finish though, it's contrived and ugly. Plus if he had trouble setting up Primo, an agile, lucha-able guy, what's he going to do with someone like Sheamus? I'd like to see a top rope finisher. Bourne has the SSP, Nexus south african guy has the 450, Cara needs something.
OR, sold the fall, climbed up, had Primo fight back a little until Cara got the advantage, then hit the finish.
he needs a new finish though, it's contrived and ugly. Plus if he had trouble setting up Primo, an agile, lucha-able guy, what's he going to do with someone like Sheamus? I'd like to see a top rope finisher. Bourne has the SSP, Nexus south african guy has the 450, Cara needs something.
Watching this match makes me want a Cruiserweight division even more. The small guys work better with each other and their matches look more believable. David/Goliath matchups are okay if used sparingly, but I don't want to see a substantial feud between a lightweight and the Big Show or Kane. And like TWJC said, how is Sin Cara supposed to pull off that finisher against a heavyweight?
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
For some unknown reason WWE has never been able to produce an interesting cruiser division. It's like their audience doesn't give a shit. I think because WCW ran the south, where they treated it more like wrestling (rasslin) and less like entertainment that it succeeded more. Neither side is right/wrong, just different.
I think the WWE audience doesn't care about cruisers in a cruiser division because they feel it goes nowhere. A match for the US Title has guys on the cusp of main eventing. Cruisers are just the best guy under 220 and thus, is the highest they'll get. To the WWE audience, the cruiser division is like the minor leagues.
This is all theory, but it's what I see. I think that maybe instead of having a hard capped cruiser division just make the US Title the *wink wink* cruiser title. It's a match of guys on the cusp of main eventing and it just so happens tha it's often between smaller, athletic guys.
I love cruiserweights. I think it adds a much needed dimension to any show.
I think the WWE audience doesn't care about cruisers in a cruiser division because they feel it goes nowhere. A match for the US Title has guys on the cusp of main eventing. Cruisers are just the best guy under 220 and thus, is the highest they'll get. To the WWE audience, the cruiser division is like the minor leagues.
This is all theory, but it's what I see. I think that maybe instead of having a hard capped cruiser division just make the US Title the *wink wink* cruiser title. It's a match of guys on the cusp of main eventing and it just so happens tha it's often between smaller, athletic guys.
I love cruiserweights. I think it adds a much needed dimension to any show.
Kofi/ZigglerClassic
Pre-Show Stalwart
Not a bad match or debut. I hear WWE isn't going to have him do the leap over the top rope anymore. I think Sin Cara was a little mad at the top rope botch by Primo. i could tell by the body language and way he got up that he was a little upset. And i don't know about you guys but Primo looked nervous out there today. I mean REALLY nervous.
I think they should get a rematch or have Cara face off against Evan Bourne.
I think they should get a rematch or have Cara face off against Evan Bourne.
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
Primo looked nervous because he was working a style he hadn't been doing and it was his responsibility to make Cara look awesome.
Everything about that botch at the end was shitty. Cara's half ass selling, redoing the finish, like you said, the body language. He reminded me of when HBK would get pissy if a guy blew a spot. Like at Summerslam 96? How he landed and yelled at Vader to 'MOVE'. Not THAT bad, but still like a pampered guy who wasn't sure how to handle someone else messing up.
I don't want o see Cara vs Bourne, it won't be that good of a match. Think about this, what are their strengths? Selling and highspots. Okay, so, WHO does the control segment so the other guy can sell. remember, without awesome selling and an awesome control segment, the highspots mean less.
There's a reason Malenko vs Mysterio and KENTA vs Bryan Danielson was so good. You had a DYNAMIC. You had technician vs flyer and striker vs grappler. With Cara vs Bourne it's like putting the same side of a magnet against itself, it repels.
Put cara against Sheamus or Daniel Bryan. You must have an antagonist and a protagonist.
Everything about that botch at the end was shitty. Cara's half ass selling, redoing the finish, like you said, the body language. He reminded me of when HBK would get pissy if a guy blew a spot. Like at Summerslam 96? How he landed and yelled at Vader to 'MOVE'. Not THAT bad, but still like a pampered guy who wasn't sure how to handle someone else messing up.
I don't want o see Cara vs Bourne, it won't be that good of a match. Think about this, what are their strengths? Selling and highspots. Okay, so, WHO does the control segment so the other guy can sell. remember, without awesome selling and an awesome control segment, the highspots mean less.
There's a reason Malenko vs Mysterio and KENTA vs Bryan Danielson was so good. You had a DYNAMIC. You had technician vs flyer and striker vs grappler. With Cara vs Bourne it's like putting the same side of a magnet against itself, it repels.
Put cara against Sheamus or Daniel Bryan. You must have an antagonist and a protagonist.
And you don't get that having to come up with all of this on the fly, while still making sure you come in under your match time is incredibly difficult to do. Let's examine your next post in a second.
I understand what people mean when they say this, but you're reading way too much into it, especially for a TV match people won't remember in 6 months. Not to mention, there's a valid kayfabe reasoning to justify his getting back up as quickly as he did, which I've already explained. And finally, it's not like he just popped up like he was supposed to do, if I remember correctly, he actually started to sell the fall, but then remembered he was running out of time, which was when he got back up.
And YOU could have thought of all that in the split second it took for him to lose his balance and fall to floor, while at the same time working to maintain his balance, so he doesn't fall at all?
No? Didn't think so. Being a pro wrestler doesn't imbue you wish superior mental processing of information. You're being completely unreasonable with your scenario here.
And then they would have run way over on their time in that segment.
You see, things aren't just cut and dry, black and white as you want them to be. All in all, I think the two guys did the best they could under the circumstances. Had the fall happened two minutes earlier, they would certainly have covered up better, but the fact of the matter is, they had to get the finish in so the WWE could keep their booking schedule. Anyone who watched Wrestlemania knows how just a couple of minutes can throw an entire show off. They had to finish, and the finish was as believable as anything they could have done in such a short time frame.
Reddog1146
Beating the odds since 1993
If anything, Primo botched, his feet slipped and sin cara fell off. That worries me, what if sin cara starts fighting with other primos and botch and make him look bad? Then he would lose fans and get downgraded to superstars. i am hoping it was a one time botch.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I'm pretty split here. My lack of enthusiasm over spot monkeys automatically makes me not care as much about this guy as others clearly do. Not only is he just hitting big spots, but he's botching half of them.
The other half of me says it's too early. People get nervous, and things like this happen. His reputation is pretty solid, and I've never heard people complain about his botching moves before coming to the WWE. I would love to see some actual in-ring psychology take places during his matches, but then again, he's only had one, so I can't complain there either.
I don't like the finish. Takes too long to set up, it's nowhere near realistic (even for pro wrestling standards), and I'm not sure most will know how to take it. Again, this is assuming this is in fact his finisher, and I'm not sold on that being it.
So, for now, I'm split. He hasn't blown my socks off, but he has the ability, no question. Hope it all works out.
The other half of me says it's too early. People get nervous, and things like this happen. His reputation is pretty solid, and I've never heard people complain about his botching moves before coming to the WWE. I would love to see some actual in-ring psychology take places during his matches, but then again, he's only had one, so I can't complain there either.
I don't like the finish. Takes too long to set up, it's nowhere near realistic (even for pro wrestling standards), and I'm not sure most will know how to take it. Again, this is assuming this is in fact his finisher, and I'm not sold on that being it.
So, for now, I'm split. He hasn't blown my socks off, but he has the ability, no question. Hope it all works out.
I wasn’t too impressed with the debut. It has nothing to do with the botched finish. That stuff happens, no big deal. I think Sin Cara should have controlled a fast pace match from start to finish. He came in with a lot of hype and faced a lower card guy who hadn’t been on Raw in I don’t know how long. Sin Cara should have dominated and been able to use that time to showcase his moves. We did not need a competitive match. Also, I really didn’t care for his finish. Not because of the botch, but because of the move itself. It’s way too unrealistic even for wrestling. That move is obviously impossible unless the opponent is completely and voluntarily going along with it. You could say that for a lot of moves, but this one is so obvious that I just have to roll my eyes at it.
I didn't understand the booking on this one. If they wanted to have Sin Cara have a more competitive match in his first outing, they should have booked him against somebody far more meaningful than Primo. By booking him against a Superstars level jobber and making the match "that" competitive, it deflates a lot of what should have been a red hot start.
I think that some serious adjustments need to be made to Sin Cara if they want to keep him on the live show. His style is just too prone to mistakes. The botch at the end was too ugly for live television. He just seems like the type of guy who is going to keep pushing too far, and go for spots that are too hit or miss. I think he would benefit greatly from slowing down a little to make sure the moves he does, are done better.
And I agree about the finisher. It's just a little too over the top. I hope that he moves away from it in the future. It's visually impressive, for sure, but it pushed believability a little too far for my liking.
I think that some serious adjustments need to be made to Sin Cara if they want to keep him on the live show. His style is just too prone to mistakes. The botch at the end was too ugly for live television. He just seems like the type of guy who is going to keep pushing too far, and go for spots that are too hit or miss. I think he would benefit greatly from slowing down a little to make sure the moves he does, are done better.
And I agree about the finisher. It's just a little too over the top. I hope that he moves away from it in the future. It's visually impressive, for sure, but it pushed believability a little too far for my liking.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I'm with Brain here. The match wasn't that good but the botch happened. Everyone on the planet that is a pro has botched something before and they'll do it again. I thought it was more Primo's fault and the finisher he hit wound up looking good anyway. The crowd was into him and he looked good with his high spots. I didn't like what Primo did with getting in WAY too much offense and killing Cara's momentum too often, but it's a first match so we don't have much to go on. Kofi Kingston had the worst debut for a star I've ever seen and he was fine a week later. The botch wasn't a huge deal. It was bad but it's not like it was the end of the world.
Trill Co$by
Believes in The Shield!
You mean the part Primo slipped so Sin Cara (like any great worker) actually WORKED with Primo's botch and made it somewhat affective? Sin Cara, in the past two weeks has been able to readjust to just about any "botch" moment and make it come out to look like it works.
Sure he's a spot monkey, but what the hell is John Morrison and Jeff Hardy? For that matter, what was the team of LonDrick? The guy's taking a few weeks to show off his ring work and eventually we'll start to see him involved in storylines. You also seem to forget that wrestling Mexico where highflying is prominent and wrestling in America where it's all about roided up big guys are two different things and the guy's just trying to adjust.
Furthermore, Sin Cara's finisher isn't anything new. Paul Burchill used to do it all the time when he had the pirate gimmick. Oh wait, the internet's attention span doesn't go back that far.
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
hardy is a spot monkey but he makes stuff look spontaneous, like the edge spear at mania X7, that got such a huge pop because it looked spontaneous.
Primo fell and Cara didn't cover the botch well at all. it looked like "FUCK, HE MESSED UP, lets redo it" it looked like "take 2". The botch itself (the fall) isn't the bad part, it's making the rest of the match look like take 2 that made it so awful.
I don't think that'll kill Cara, I think he can still get over, he just needs to make things look more spontaneous.
American wrestling isn't about roided up guys, it's about characters. Miz, rock, Austin, young HHH, (I don't even think Cena roids, he has huge wrists, ankles, and hips, he's just a big guy), Orton, Jericho, I don't see most guys as roiders. I see them as character driven trying to tell a story.
Yea, he needs to adjust.....which is what the fuck I've been saying.
Primo fell and Cara didn't cover the botch well at all. it looked like "FUCK, HE MESSED UP, lets redo it" it looked like "take 2". The botch itself (the fall) isn't the bad part, it's making the rest of the match look like take 2 that made it so awful.
I don't think that'll kill Cara, I think he can still get over, he just needs to make things look more spontaneous.
American wrestling isn't about roided up guys, it's about characters. Miz, rock, Austin, young HHH, (I don't even think Cena roids, he has huge wrists, ankles, and hips, he's just a big guy), Orton, Jericho, I don't see most guys as roiders. I see them as character driven trying to tell a story.
Yea, he needs to adjust.....which is what the fuck I've been saying.
R-truth_TOOL
New Member
Sin cara is a botch machine he failed to work a match with Primo and dont give me that Primo can't wrestle we know thats not true.
This dude is a poorer version of Rey mysterio he botched his finisher and that stupid ring entrance is stupid he sucks i hope he gets fired,.
This dude is a poorer version of Rey mysterio he botched his finisher and that stupid ring entrance is stupid he sucks i hope he gets fired,.
R-truth_TOOL
New Member
How did primo get too much offense in??? That makes no fucking sense dumb ass stop making excuses for that botch machine.
And lol at the Kofi statment you iwc fuckers are so tarded my friedn told me you people were stupid times infinity but geez you people think Kofi botches and Miz doesn't wtf get outta here idiot
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Oh this should be fun.
Well first of all Sin Cara has been built up as a force in his vignettes and video packages and yet against Primo he managed to be stopped time after time by a guy that is looked at as a jobber.
How am I making excuses for Cara when the botch was Primo's fault?
And yes, Kofi did botch various moves in his debut match. Following that his nerves calmed down greatly and he performed up to his normal standards. I don't see where Miz factors in but if your friend said it, clearly it must be true. Kofi's debut was indeed bad though.
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
@slyfox6969
I don't care if it's HARD to come up with stuff on the fly. HE'S A FUCKING PROFESSIONAL, THE BIGGEST DRAW IN MEXICO OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. he's SUPPOSED to be able to fix things. If you're world class, there are no excuses.
You think people look at Pujols struggling right now and say "well I couldn't hit those balls"? NO, they say "he's supposed to carry the team, he's failing at his job".
It's harsh, but if it's your job, and you fail, then you failed. Plain and simple. He made a mistake, he'd probably admit to it. Why cut him slack when if Cena stumbles on an irish whip this board is calling for him to be fired?
@ the guy above me.
Primo got in offense because he was the heel. Have any idea how awful a squash by a spotter looks? The match was a cara SHOWCASE. One of his best traits are his face in peril, which they SHOWCASED. It was a short match, he didn't look weak against Primo. It put Cara over as tough and he won with some flashy stuff.
cracks me up how stupid most of the IWC is when it comes to basic booking principles. Hmmm, what does a babyface need to do well? Sell (face in peril) and have good comebacks, which can either be done through fire (Cena, Austin, Orton) or through flash (HBK, Mysterio, Cara).
How would YOU have booked his match? he comes in, hits 15 hurricarana variations, then his finish? that's a gymnastics routine that the American audience would shit all over.
I don't care if it's HARD to come up with stuff on the fly. HE'S A FUCKING PROFESSIONAL, THE BIGGEST DRAW IN MEXICO OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. he's SUPPOSED to be able to fix things. If you're world class, there are no excuses.
You think people look at Pujols struggling right now and say "well I couldn't hit those balls"? NO, they say "he's supposed to carry the team, he's failing at his job".
It's harsh, but if it's your job, and you fail, then you failed. Plain and simple. He made a mistake, he'd probably admit to it. Why cut him slack when if Cena stumbles on an irish whip this board is calling for him to be fired?
@ the guy above me.
Primo got in offense because he was the heel. Have any idea how awful a squash by a spotter looks? The match was a cara SHOWCASE. One of his best traits are his face in peril, which they SHOWCASED. It was a short match, he didn't look weak against Primo. It put Cara over as tough and he won with some flashy stuff.
cracks me up how stupid most of the IWC is when it comes to basic booking principles. Hmmm, what does a babyface need to do well? Sell (face in peril) and have good comebacks, which can either be done through fire (Cena, Austin, Orton) or through flash (HBK, Mysterio, Cara).
How would YOU have booked his match? he comes in, hits 15 hurricarana variations, then his finish? that's a gymnastics routine that the American audience would shit all over.
That's just silly. Being a professional doesn't mean he gets to decide how much time his segment gets, and it doesn't give him superior mental processing.
Perhaps, but the smart ones will also say "I'm sure he's doing the best he can", which is NOT what you're saying.
Why are you so hung up on Cena, when he has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation? I already told you I wouldn't say anything if it had been Cena instead of Sin Cara, and I even have a Cena banner in my sig. I made my name on these forums for defending Cena. Why do you keep bringing him up when he has nothing to do with this?
You're being completely unreasonable in your expectations, and you've not ONCE addressed the flaws I've pointed out in your plans, other than to say he's a "world class" "professional", which has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the human brain can process information, or how much time the WWE gives him in his segment.
Address that, and then we can talk. Until then, you're just shouting at the rain.