You'd be surprised. Also: Brock was around for two years and beat a who's who list of people past their prime or hadn't reached it yet. I mean that time he beat up a 49 year old Hulk Hogan whose back was more fucked than a crippled pornstar.
The WrestleZone Tournament Seeding Is Almost Done
- Thread starter klunderbunker
- Start date
You'd be surprised. Also: Brock was around for two years and beat a who's who list of people past their prime or hadn't reached it yet. I mean that time he beat up a 49 year old Hulk Hogan whose back was more fucked than a crippled pornstar.
The_Misson
Occasional Pre-Show
Gelgarin what would be your argument if Lou Thesz ended up going against Rikidozan? Also, I highly agree that Thesz would beat Muta and this is coming from a huge Muta mark. The only thing that would slightly help Muta is if it was no DQ just so Muta could bring out his sharp stick weapon. (I have no idea what it's called.)
The_Misson
Occasional Pre-Show
Or if Rikidozan is even a part of the tournament this year.
The_Misson
Occasional Pre-Show
I now have another man I'm going to be supporting then.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
probably not a high seed though.
I approached KB months ago about putting Trish Stratus in the tourney this year. Moolah got in last year, and since I feel that Trish was more significant than Moolah I felt it might be appropriate. I doubt he actually did it though...
Probably not that high, if only because a bunch of people won't have nominated him at all on account of them being lame and infertile.
People who did nominate him will have had him near the top of their lists, just because you can't really acknowledge Dozan and not put him near the top.
People who did nominate him will have had him near the top of their lists, just because you can't really acknowledge Dozan and not put him near the top.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Know your not much on the women, but who would you argue as the most significant? You probably rank Thesz as the greatest male, but what about woman?
Most significant people to the development of woman's wrestling? Lou Thesz, Ed Lewis and Toots Mondt.
Most significant woman to the development of woman's wrestling? I have absolutely no idea; no one in the US really - I'm sure there are pioneers in Japan, but I haven't the first clue who they are.
Most significant woman to the development of woman's wrestling? I have absolutely no idea; no one in the US really - I'm sure there are pioneers in Japan, but I haven't the first clue who they are.
Slam Bang Western Style Wrestling, where would we be without you?
With full knowledge that I understand this will probably cause you to have extreme personal dislike for me for an extended length of time, I feel as though attempting to get Lou Thesz (or Gagne for that matter) voted as the winner of the WZ tournament is something akin to trying to get The General voted in as the greatest film ever made.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
I'd probably say Mildred Burke was the first to really become significant; Moolah came next. Piece of Trivia: The WWWA belt held by Burke for over a decade later became the All Japan Women's belt held by greats like Aja Kong and Manami Toyota.
The_Misson
Occasional Pre-Show
I'd say one of the most significant to woman's wrestling in Japan might just be Jaguar Yokota. She won multiple championships started at the age of 15 and if she hadn't been injured and forced to retire at the age of 24 she probably would of won many more. Plus, she trained many of the women famous in Japan today including Aja Kong and Manami Toyota.
I reject the assertion that Thesz is analogous to Citizen Kane in the same way that modern wrestlers are analogous to modern films because the assertion relies on an underlying assumption that we are in fact discussing the same narrative form, i.e., Citizen Kane and Avatar, independent of merit, can clearly be demonstrated to consist of the same form of art, whereas the same cannot be said of modern film and silent film. I would assert that Thesz was participating in a fundamentally different art form than what modern wrestling is today.
The Dragon Saga
Whale in a Teardrop
I wonder who pioneered women's wrestling of today? Whoever it was; my assumption is Sunny, they'd want to be castrated of their reproductive systems.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Doesn't matter who came before; Stratus not only revolutionized it, but Lita helped her bring the division to heights that it had never seen before. Women's wrestling was never as popular on a massive scale before those two were on top. Even in Japan.
The Dragon Saga
Whale in a Teardrop
Actually, reviewing my comment I made a pretty narrow minded judgement. Late 90's, early 00's up until Trish and Lita bid farewell there were some great matches. Guess I'm more thinking of who pioneered the idea an unathletic model could/should become a pro-wrestler.
Yeah; if you're going to use academic language then please try and confine it to a coherently structured sentence. And trying to claim that what Thesz did was fundamentally different to what Hogan did is exactly as ludicrous as claiming that the in ring styles of Hulk Hogan and Rey Mysterio render them practitioners of a completely different art form.
Professional wrestling of Thesz's era contained all of the same tropes as pro wrestling of any other post Gotch era. They are artificial fights with predetermined finishes presented as legitimate contests using elements of psychology and storytelling in order to present a compelling spectacle to an audience. Thesz's generation put a greater onus on looking real, but to say that makes their "art" intrinsically different from what was to come after is nonsensical.
It also shows sadness inducing but hardly unexpected ignorance of Lou Thesz, given that fact that it completely ignores the fact that he made the transition into the more modern styles whenever necessary.
My dearest apologies for expecting that you could follow along with a sentence structure slightly more complicated than what one might encounter in the seventh grade.
To the contrary, I would say that's exactly what makes it different. Thesz was concerned with only the act of wrestling itself, i.e., presenting a staged fight that looked real enough for the audience to believe in it. Modern wrestling (say, post-Hogan) is concerned with the overall narrative structure and only uses the act of wrestling as a means to an end. It's the difference between the act of painting and the resulting picture. For Thesz, the art was nothing more than painting. People were showing up to watch Da Vinci slap paint on canvass, and abandoned it as soon as Da Vinci decided he was through painting. Modern wrestling is more analogous to going to the Louvre and admiring the Mona Lisa. No doubt there's interest in the means by which it was created and a certain admiration for the technique and mastery involved, and only an artist of great skill could produce a masterpiece, but the most important factor is the end result. Thesz and modern wrestlers work toward two entirely different ends, on the artistic level, anyway.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
I wonder if location will be more of a factor this year. I remember the El Santo vs Shawn Michaels match from 2010. If that match had been in Mexico there's no way Santo would have lost.
Brock's achievements in wrestling and in MMA is like comparing apples that work in a predetermined fashion and oranges who legitimately beat the shit out of each other.
In short, don't bring up Lesnar's body of work in MMA because it's not relevant to a pro wrestling voting competition.
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