The WrestleZone Tournament Seeding Is Almost Done

[Gelgarin]

My dearest apologies for expecting that you could follow along with a sentence structure slightly more complicated than what one might encounter in the seventh grade.

Yeah; that'll be it.

To the contrary, I would say that's exactly what makes it different. Thesz was concerned with only the act of wrestling itself, i.e., presenting a staged fight that looked real enough for the audience to believe in it. Modern wrestling (say, post-Hogan) is concerned with the overall narrative structure and only uses the act of wrestling as a means to an end. It's the difference between the act of painting and the resulting picture. For Thesz, the art was nothing more than painting. People were showing up to watch Da Vinci slap paint on canvass, and abandoned it as soon as Da Vinci decided he was through painting. Modern wrestling is more analogous to going to the Louvre and admiring the Mona Lisa. No doubt there's interest in the means by which it was created and a certain admiration for the technique and mastery involved, and only an artist of great skill could produce a masterpiece, but the most important factor is the end result. Thesz and modern wrestlers work toward two entirely different ends, on the artistic level, anyway.

So I'm just going to go ahead and try to bypass as much of the nonsense about painting as I can - it's an utterly nonsensical metaphor that bears no semblance of relation to what we are talking about - or perhaps my seventh grade brain simply cannot handle the complexity of your thought again.

Thesz and modern performers both work to precisely one end, which is the entertainment of an audience. That is all the professional wrestling has ever been about; you can blather on about the "artistic level" all you like, but all that Thesz, Sammartino, Hogan, Austin and Cena are doing is staging pretend fights aimed at entertaining an audience sufficiently that they will be willing to expend money on seeing it. Not only is Thesz one of the best at doing this in history; he also invented, pioneered or popularised half of the techniques that contemporary talent use today.

The fans in Thesz's day wanted a more realistic product so that is what he provided. That is the only difference. If the fans had wanted contemporary wrestling then that is what he would have provided, as is proved by his time on the East Coast and in Mexico. (Go and check out Thesz's matches with Rocca and Sammartino and find me a single way in which they differ from contemporary wrestling that can't be refuted by comparing Hogan and Mysterio and I'll drop out of this debate right now) If Hogan's fans has wanted a more old school and realistic product then that is what he would have provided; and is similarly proved by his time in Japan.

There is no fundamental difference between the two.

 

[Blue Chipper]

Yeah; if you're going to use academic language then please try and confine it to a coherently structured sentence.

Posters have noted an air of conceitedness in regards to your posting behavior. I've always shrugged it off and thought it was unjustified. I'd be lying, however, if I said that I can't sense it, especially here.

I know creative writing is your forte and you simply made a grammar observation. With that said, I don't know why you chose to post this; it had no relevance to the discussion and would only incite a strong emotion in the opposition. Also, it's "try to," not "try and".

 

[Con T.]

Thesz and modern performers both work to precisely one end, which is the entertainment of an audience. That is all the professional wrestling has ever been about

This may come inherently with entertaining the audience, but isn't drawing as much money as possible all what wrestling is about?

 

[Gelgarin]

Pretty much answered your own question there.

 

[Con T.]

Pretty much answered your own question there.

Then if that's the case, and frankly you'd have to tell me because I'm not sure, who drew the most money for wrestling? Was it not either Hogan or Austin?

I'm sure we have to take into account inflation and what not.

 

[JGlass]

I'm not sure why you're arguing: if you don't vote for Rey, that means you're going to hell.

 

[CH David]

I'm not sure why you're arguing: if you don't vote for Rey, that means you're going to hell.

As I'm a daywalker, half ginger for the folks that don't know, I have no soul to condemn or save. Suck it, bitch!

 

[Con T.]

I'm not sure why you're arguing: if you don't vote for Rey, that means you're going to hell.

You mean just like Eddie?


If it wasn't too soon for Randall Orton, it's not too soon for me

 

[Gelgarin]

You can't really say for certain; drawing has meant different things during different time periods. My answer would be either Lou Thesz or Buddy Rogers, but then I take the view that wrestlers stopped being individual draws once we got into the national television era. You'd also really have to take into account more complex factors if you wanted to get any kind of realistic answer. For example, a card headlined by Buddy Rogers would average a higher gate than one headlined by Lou Thesz; but that was because Rogers only worked in one affluent and densely populated area whilst Thesz worked across the entire country.

If you tally up the number of 10k+ live gates that each wrestler has headlined then Thesz and Rocca were the top draws of the 50's, Buddy Rogers dominated in the 60's, Sammartino in the 70's and Hogan the 80's. Overall Hogan has the most 10k+ gates to his name and if you assume any money made by a show he headlined to have been drawn by him then I would imagine he's leagues ahead of the next man.

So yeah... short answer if Hulk Hogan. Long answer is I have no idea since nobody has ever really settled on what it means to draw.

 

[Con T.]

Fair. I suppose I could ask if you felt Hogan was more helped by being part of the WWF brand, as opposed to the WWF brand being helped by Hulk Hogan.

Essentially, I suppose I'm asking you if Hulk Hogan was bigger than the WWF. I'm sure there's plenty of answers to this, too.

 

[Gelgarin]

Fair. I suppose I could ask if you felt Hogan was more helped by being part of the WWF brand, as opposed to the WWF brand being helped by Hulk Hogan.

Essentially, I suppose I'm asking you if Hulk Hogan was bigger than the WWF. I'm sure there's plenty of answers to this, too.

Only two.

No.

and

No, but...

Anyone who tries to tell you that the WWF succeeded because of Hulk Hogan knows very little about wrestling history. The WWF (which I shall henceforth also use to describe the WWE, CWC and WWWF) would have succeeded with or without the contribution of Hulk Hogan; he was simply the right man in the right place at the right time.

That's not to say that the same isn't true for the WWF. When people talk about why the WWF ended up dominating the industry they inevitably waste a great deal of time talking about the wrestlers or the booking or the business; when in reality that wasn't especially important. The WWF became the dominant wrestling promotion in the United States because of simple geography.

You remember when I talked about how Buddy Rogers outdrew Lou Thesz despite only working in a tiny portion of the country? Well that place was the Tri State area, which was controlled by Vince McMahon and Toots Mondt. Compared to the rest of the country the area was very densely populated and as such could pull bigger gates on a more regular basis.

Any other promoter would have to bring in the very top talent available and promote the hell out of their shows in order to crack a gate of 10,000 fans (this is why Thesz's numbers are so remarkable) whilst the WWF could pretty much put on any old card and expect to make money. Do you have any idea who the Amazing Zuma is? Neither do I, and neither does anybody else, but he cracked 30,000 fans multiple times for his matches against Antonio Rocca.

The WWF simply had a larger fan base available to take advantage of and as such they were able to make more money. Because they had more money they were able to poach all of the best talent from the NWA territories and the AWA, making things even more lopsided. No matter how well or badly they were run, no other promotion could realistically have gone national in the way the WWF did; simple fact of economics.

Not that this is really answering your question; but it's interesting none the less.

The point I am making is that just because I declare Hogan as being 'the right man in the right place and the right time' doesn't mean that I am heaping all of the credit for the WWF's rise on Vince McMahon. He did a great job building the company, but when he's talked about as having beaten out all of the competition; it was never really a contest.

Nor for that matter am I suggesting that Hogan wasn't the best man for the job. He was; that's why was given it. Vince needed a top guy and didn't want to make one, so he took a look around and saw who was getting the most over at the time. Far and away that was Hulk Hogan in Minnesota (you want to credit anyone with Hogan's rise to stardom credit Verne Gagne) so Vince poached him and did more or less the exact same thing on the east coast.

Hogan worked out better than anyone could have possibly forecast and probably helped make the wrestling boom bigger than it would have otherwise have been; but the suggest that the boom could not have happened without him is laughable.

...

Haven't done that for a little while.

 

[Bernkastel]

Only two.

No.

and

No, but...

Anyone who tries to tell you that the WWF succeeded because of Hulk Hogan knows very little about wrestling history. The WWF (which I shall henceforth also use to describe the WWE, CWC and WWWF) would have succeeded with or without the contribution of Hulk Hogan; he was simply the right man in the right place at the right time.

That's not to say that the same isn't true for the WWF. When people talk about why the WWF ended up dominating the industry they inevitably waste a great deal of time talking about the wrestlers or the booking or the business; when in reality that wasn't especially important. The WWF became the dominant wrestling promotion in the United States because of simple geography.

You remember when I talked about how Buddy Rogers outdrew Lou Thesz despite only working in a tiny portion of the country? Well that place was the Tri State area, which was controlled by Vince McMahon and Toots Mondt. Compared to the rest of the country the area was very densely populated and as such could pull bigger gates on a more regular basis.

Any other promoter would have to bring in the very top talent available and promote the hell out of their shows in order to crack a gate of 10,000 fans (this is why Thesz's numbers are so remarkable) whilst the WWF could pretty much put on any old card and expect to make money. Do you have any idea who the Amazing Zuma is? Neither do I, and neither does anybody else, but he cracked 30,000 fans multiple times for his matches against Antonio Rocca.

The WWF simply had a larger fan base available to take advantage of and as such they were able to make more money. Because they had more money they were able to poach all of the best talent from the NWA territories and the AWA, making things even more lopsided. No matter how well or badly they were run, no other promotion could realistically have gone national in the way the WWF did; simple fact of economics.

Not that this is really answering your question; but it's interesting none the less.

The point I am making is that just because I declare Hogan as being 'the right man in the right place and the right time' doesn't mean that I am heaping all of the credit for the WWF's rise on Vince McMahon. He did a great job building the company, but when he's talked about as having beaten out all of the competition; it was never really a contest.

Nor for that matter am I suggesting that Hogan wasn't the best man for the job. He was; that's why was given it. Vince needed a top guy and didn't want to make one, so he took a look around and saw who was getting the most over at the time. Far and away that was Hulk Hogan in Minnesota (you want to credit anyone with Hogan's rise to stardom credit Verne Gagne) so Vince poached him and did more or less the exact same thing on the east coast.

Hogan worked out better than anyone could have possibly forecast and probably helped make the wrestling boom bigger than it would have otherwise have been; but the suggest that the boom could not have happened without him is laughable.

...

Haven't done that for a little while.

Yep... definitely primed and ready

 

[Remix]

There's also the considerable differences between the structure of the buisness now compared to back then. Now WWE can realistically draw in excess of 10,000 fans multiple times a week, every week but the bulk of their money doesn't come from the gate. That's not to say that Lou wouldn't have drawn in this age, but comparing his ability to draw to (for example) Cena requires the comparison of two non identical things. Cena has wrestled in front of larger crowds then Thesz (or at least I'd assume he has), but it wasn't his name or him personally that drew the crowd. Cena sells more T-shirts than Thesz did, but Thesz wasn't in he buisness of selling lots of merchandise which couldn't viably be shipped worldwide in Thesz's day anyway. That's not to say that if Thesz was in Cena's spot he wouldn't sell as much merchandise, or Cena wouldn't be able to draw >10K fans to a show in Thesz day but it requires a hell of a lot of conjecture to be compared.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Who were the experts? Guys like mods? Writers for WZ?

lulz. you serious bro?

 

[klunderbunker]

For those wondering, Sly and I handpicked the committee myself. No one would object to anyone that submitted a list I assure you.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

For those wondering, Sly and I handpicked the committee myself. No one would object to anyone that submitted a list I assure you.

We doing the usual LD sometime this week?

 

[klunderbunker]

Wednesday.

 

[Coco]

So long as hatehabsforver isn't one of the experts, I'm good.

 

[hatehabsforever]

So long as hatehabsforver isn't one of the experts, I'm good.

Hey, what's up with the unprovoked attack? From my Survivor buddy of all people!

And to think I wanted to be one of the experts, just so I could get RVD seeded as high as possible.

Trust me, after my performance in the Debaters League, I won't be claiming to be one of the experts anytime soon

 

[Coco]

The game is afoot, Survivor buddy.

 

[Shocky]

Will this be the year a non WWF-1997 worker wins?

 

[shattered dreams]

Will this be the year a non WWF-1997 worker wins?

It is hard to beat the amusement factor of a bunch of people that don't like Cena getting Austin to win something until it ceases to be fun anymore.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Only two.

No.

and

No, but...

Anyone who tries to tell you that the WWF succeeded because of Hulk Hogan knows very little about wrestling history. The WWF (which I shall henceforth also use to describe the WWE, CWC and WWWF) would have succeeded with or without the contribution of Hulk Hogan; he was simply the right man in the right place at the right time.

That's not to say that the same isn't true for the WWF. When people talk about why the WWF ended up dominating the industry they inevitably waste a great deal of time talking about the wrestlers or the booking or the business; when in reality that wasn't especially important. The WWF became the dominant wrestling promotion in the United States because of simple geography.

You remember when I talked about how Buddy Rogers outdrew Lou Thesz despite only working in a tiny portion of the country? Well that place was the Tri State area, which was controlled by Vince McMahon and Toots Mondt. Compared to the rest of the country the area was very densely populated and as such could pull bigger gates on a more regular basis.

Any other promoter would have to bring in the very top talent available and promote the hell out of their shows in order to crack a gate of 10,000 fans (this is why Thesz's numbers are so remarkable) whilst the WWF could pretty much put on any old card and expect to make money. Do you have any idea who the Amazing Zuma is? Neither do I, and neither does anybody else, but he cracked 30,000 fans multiple times for his matches against Antonio Rocca.

The WWF simply had a larger fan base available to take advantage of and as such they were able to make more money. Because they had more money they were able to poach all of the best talent from the NWA territories and the AWA, making things even more lopsided. No matter how well or badly they were run, no other promotion could realistically have gone national in the way the WWF did; simple fact of economics.

Not that this is really answering your question; but it's interesting none the less.

The point I am making is that just because I declare Hogan as being 'the right man in the right place and the right time' doesn't mean that I am heaping all of the credit for the WWF's rise on Vince McMahon. He did a great job building the company, but when he's talked about as having beaten out all of the competition; it was never really a contest.

Nor for that matter am I suggesting that Hogan wasn't the best man for the job. He was; that's why was given it. Vince needed a top guy and didn't want to make one, so he took a look around and saw who was getting the most over at the time. Far and away that was Hulk Hogan in Minnesota (you want to credit anyone with Hogan's rise to stardom credit Verne Gagne) so Vince poached him and did more or less the exact same thing on the east coast.

Hogan worked out better than anyone could have possibly forecast and probably helped make the wrestling boom bigger than it would have otherwise have been; but the suggest that the boom could not have happened without him is laughable.

...

Haven't done that for a little while.

Nerd.

 

[Gelgarin]

Can I help you?

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Will this be the year a non WWF-1997 worker wins?

Like who? Hogan, I suppose.