The problem with CM Punk, as I've said all along...
- Thread starter Slyfox696
- Start date
First of all, you're talking about a COMPLETELY different generation of wrestling. Second of all, those guys WERE larger than life. Sammartino was a monster of a man. Rogers had a unique and fascinating look, beyond that which you would see from the common man. And I don't think Thesz would ever be a draw today, in fact, I don't think he was much of a draw in the northern territories anyways.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and some of your apples even look like oranges.
Sammartino was about 5'10-5'11 - not quite monstrous. Rocca was six foot without any kind of look whatsoever, yet managed to be the top drawing talent in the country for an entire decade. Thesz didn't draw the same numbers in the north-east that he did everywhere else, but that still leaves most of the country where he was the dominant force for decades despite looking like a senior citizen for the bulk of his career.
And the fact that so many talents could succeed in a different era is rather my point. There is nothing intrinsic about the product that demands wrestlers appear larger than life. In fact since the dawn of the television era there has been even less reason for wrestlers to be oversized behemoths. Further evidence of this can be found by looking at the European, Japanese or Mexican wrestling scenes throughout history. Stars have traditionally never "needed to look like wrestlers" in order to succeed, even in the US. Lawler, Race or Rhodes sure as fuck didn't look like superheros. They looked significantly less like wrestlers than Punk does, but they wrestled on a regular basis and entertained people, as such getting over.
The strongman ideology has only become prevalent in contemporary wrestling because fans have been conditioned to expect it, much as they have been conditioned to accept every other variation of the product. Saying that every aspect of the contemporary product needs to adhere to expectations as akin to somebody in 2001 proclaiming that the attitude era must never end.
Now I fully reject your premise that Punk doesn't look like a wrestler. Maybe when he's wearing jeans and a t-shit, but dress Stone Cold up similarly and he doesn't do that well either. On stage (as 99% of people will see him) Punk does fine. But even if I were to accept the premise that he doesn't look convincing in the role, I deny it's a problem. It's just a case of the role being redefined, as it has been numerous times throughout history.
And the fact that so many talents could succeed in a different era is rather my point. There is nothing intrinsic about the product that demands wrestlers appear larger than life. In fact since the dawn of the television era there has been even less reason for wrestlers to be oversized behemoths. Further evidence of this can be found by looking at the European, Japanese or Mexican wrestling scenes throughout history. Stars have traditionally never "needed to look like wrestlers" in order to succeed, even in the US. Lawler, Race or Rhodes sure as fuck didn't look like superheros. They looked significantly less like wrestlers than Punk does, but they wrestled on a regular basis and entertained people, as such getting over.
The strongman ideology has only become prevalent in contemporary wrestling because fans have been conditioned to expect it, much as they have been conditioned to accept every other variation of the product. Saying that every aspect of the contemporary product needs to adhere to expectations as akin to somebody in 2001 proclaiming that the attitude era must never end.
Now I fully reject your premise that Punk doesn't look like a wrestler. Maybe when he's wearing jeans and a t-shit, but dress Stone Cold up similarly and he doesn't do that well either. On stage (as 99% of people will see him) Punk does fine. But even if I were to accept the premise that he doesn't look convincing in the role, I deny it's a problem. It's just a case of the role being redefined, as it has been numerous times throughout history.
I don't believe I ever said height was holding Punk back. Look at Sammartino:
That's a monster of a man, especially when you compare that to the average person back in the day. Common people didn't lift weights then like they do now and a guy like Sammartino was certainly out of the ordinary, and something you would see very rarely outside of pro wrestling. Bruno would never have been kept out of MSG in his heyday.
As I said, a completely different generation of wrestling.
No, that leaves the southeast and midwest where he was a dominant force. And even then, he was a dominant force in large part because as a legit shooter, promoters couldn't pull a screwjob on him and steal the title for their promotion.
There is today. Pro wrestling has been outed as a scripted farce. So, just like movies, fans want larger than life characters who capture their imagination with extraordinary feats.
Today's product is much different than when Rocca and Thesz were doing their thing.
To be successful? I guess not. To be game changing and draw new fans to the product? Absolutely they do.
And they were overshadowed by guys with the names Flair and Hogan, who were most certainly larger than life characters.
I completely disagree. The idea of larger than life characters have become prevalent because that's what fans want. Compare Mike Tyson and Vitali Klitschko. How many people do you think know the name of Tyson vs. Klitschko? Or how about Ali? Why is/was Brock Lesnar the biggest draw in MMA? How does Vin Diesel keep getting work? Do you think people paid to watch Arnold Schwarzenegger because he was such a great actor?
This goes far beyond wrestling, and deals with American culture. We love Superman and Batman, V for Vendetta is the face for Anonymous, the NFL is the most popular it has ever been, John Wayne is still known and imitated, etc. People, especially Americans, want larger than life superheroes. It's just the way it is.
Tell that to the MSG security guard.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
This was something I was wondering about; it was widely reported that when Punk was WHC he was stripped of the title and depushed after making comments regarding the WWe dress code and that he, like Cena, should be exempt from it.
Now, if the short period that Punk was 'retired' but running around with the title is anything to go by, he dressed very nondescript - black hoodie and jeans. If you're not interested in Wrestling and some guy who looks like he should be in a Seattle band circa 1990 appears looking into the building that you're responsible for the security off, you'd probably think he was there on the wrong night as everyone of the wrestlers is observing a dress code, except for John Cena (who is quite obviously the embodiment of a wrestler).
I like Punk and think Sly can be a touch harsh on him as he is hardly the only guy struggling to get fully over with the general public in the recent WWe. However, it is hard to argue the fact that his general demeanor just does not scream 'wrestler!'
This is hardly the point though, Punk will be judged on whether or not he can impact on viewing and PPV figures, so whilst he is booked at the top of the card he can still have (some) sway over changing Sly's mind. With their lack of headliners at the present time, I hope he can.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
Because!!! He like, did something good one time that isnt just esoteric smark stuff!! Joshi!!
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
So you want Punk to use steroids like Cena did I guess ...
