The problem with CM Punk, as I've said all along...

[justinsayne]

Bret Hart look more like a WalMart employee than a 7-11 employee, Austin looks like someone who'd work in a warehouse, or be a truck driver or some shit, if I just saw them on the street & didn't know who they were "professional wrestler" wouldn't be the first thing that I'd assume.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Basically a wrestler's look can be judged by how much and what type of reaction someone would get when they walk in to an average bar. In Stone Cold's case men would hope that they didn't make uncomfortable eye contact with him and prepare to let Stone Cold steal their girlfriend. In Punk's case, people would start throwing jackets over the empty seats next to them in hopes that he doesn't sit down or they would wonder why the barback is coming to work through the front door.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Sly your argument is wrestlers should look LARGER THAN LIFE, guys like Austin didn't look larger than life. Sure Austin was muscular, was toned but he certainly didn't look larger than life.

Even if HBK was only a top draw during a shitty point in wrestling doesn't mean that he has stood the test of time, is a legend and is one of the most revered wrestlers in history, most consider HBK the best wrestler of them all and he did it without looking larger than life. This isn't an argument about wrestlers being a big draw. CM Punk isn't a big draw and its probably not going to happen but neither is John Cena or Randy Orton, they are good but people watch WWE because its WWE these days, not to see Cena and Orton every week, that's why they rely on the Rock a lot lately to draw WM28. Until they find and capitalize on the next big thing in wrestling there is no issue making Punk their top guy, he's as qualified to be that guy as anyone else in the company.

 

[TheGreatLegend]

Sly your argument is wrestlers should look LARGER THAN LIFE, guys like Austin didn't look larger than life. Sure Austin was muscular, was toned but he certainly didn't look larger than life.

Even if HBK was only a top draw during a shitty point in wrestling doesn't mean that he has stood the test of time, is a legend and is one of the most revered wrestlers in history, most consider HBK the best wrestler of them all and he did it without looking larger than life. This isn't an argument about wrestlers being a big draw. CM Punk isn't a big draw and its probably not going to happen but neither is John Cena or Randy Orton, they are good but people watch WWE because its WWE these days, not to see Cena and Orton every week, that's why they rely on the Rock a lot lately to draw WM28. Until they find and capitalize on the next big thing in wrestling there is no issue making Punk their top guy, he's as qualified to be that guy as anyone else in the company.

Nah ...Steve Austin looked like an Action Hero not some guy from the street. Steve Austin is a "Larger than Life" character. His name is "Stone Cold" Steve Austin which means he is cold as a stone and nobody can stop him not even his boss (Vince McMahon).

The point of having gimmicks and characters is to escape reality for about 2 hrs. We don't want characters that relate to us. "Larger than Life" characters inspire and motivates us.

 

[Davi323]

Still, I have issues with the security guard not recognizing him. It's Madison Square Garden. The home arena for the WWE. I would get it if it was a security guard at an arena in Des Moines, Iowa, who didn't have all that much exposure to the WWE in general, let alone CM Punk. BUT THE GARDEN? How the fuck does a Garden security guard not know? The WWE has only been doing regular shows at the Garden for what, 30-40 years now? Even a newer guard, one that hasn't been there all that long should have known. This would be laughable somewhere else...but at Madison Square Garden, it's inexcusable. I don't care about whether Punk is "big enough" to look like a wrestler or anything like that, for me, this is about whether a security guard ought to at least be able to identify the performers in a show at his venue that does repeated business there. The WWE and Garden personnel ought to be familiar with each other.

 

[Con T.]

Riddle me this; does anyone here believe that if Batista, Triple H, Undertaker, HBK, (This pains me, but he was damn over) Jeff Hardy, and even Edge and Jericho hadn't left the company or become part timers, that CM Punk would be in the position he is?

Compared to those man, CM Punk is not near a star

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Nah ...Steve Austin looked like an Action Hero not some guy from the street. Steve Austin is a "Larger than Life" character. His name is "Stone Cold" Steve Austin which means he is cold as a stone and nobody can stop him not even his boss (Vince McMahon).

The point of having gimmicks and characters is to escape reality for about 2 hrs. We don't want characters that relate to us. "Larger than Life" characters inspire and motivates us.

Although I agree his character is larger than life his look by itself doesn't come off as larger than life. Someone like Hogan and Warrior look like they're larger than life, they are freaking huge. Austin definitely looks buff but I feel his character is what makes him larger than life, not so much his look (although I must admit his look didn't work against him like Punks look does).

I think the biggest issue with wrestlers these days is none of their personalities come off as larger than life and that's the issue, not so much their look. Unfortunately without enhancing drugs its very difficult to get that larger than life look and with WWE's stingy drug policy you are pretty much fucked looking larger than life. Mason Ryan for example looks larger than life but has no personality and that's why he's not very popular, the personality being larger than life is much more important than the look itself.

I will never argue that looks help in wrestling and with.good looks and personality its much easier to look larger than life. That doesn't mean someone like Punk can't become larger than life, they just need to work harder and have an amazing personality that captures peoples imagination.

 

[CDR]

Only one of those guys look like someone who would be working your local convenience store.

Not even gonna lie, there's a guy that works at the 7-11 down the street and I've always thought he looked like Punk. What a coincidence that you mention it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'm going to go find a news story that has an incredibly tenuous link to my opinion. Wait here.

 

[ABMorales787]

Jorts and sneakers don't really help John Cena look larger than life either. Hell not many people in WWE look larger than life. If anything Zack Ryder has the most larger than life look in WWE right now besides Kane. Dude looks like a purple bobble-head with an annoying voice box.

 

[Daniel]

No, YOU'RE not getting it.

I don't give a flying fuck what the point of CM Punk is, I'm telling you what the problem is. When people look at someone as just a regular person, they don't see him as a superhero, thus, there's no appeal. There's a reason why Brock Lesnar is such a draw in the UFC, because he's a MONSTER of a man, and he has a larger than life personality.

You're the one really not getting it.

It's clearly not the problem as WWE have faith in him, and are willing to push him in that way. You're looking for ways to bash Punk, and you're not doing very well.

Nope, they've been the ones who have made it popular.

Yes, they made it popular. But they also helped to create a detrimental image of pro wrestling that still exists today. Mention professional wrestling to someone who isn't a fan and it's likely that they'll say it's fake, say it's cheesy and bring up steroids - and that's because of the aforementioned muscle men.

 

[TheGreatLegend]

It's clearly not the problem as WWE have faith in him, and are willing to push him in that way. You're looking for ways to bash Punk, and you're not doing very well.

Guys like Punk,Ryder and Bryan being champions make it look more fake than it already is. There is no way a 180 lbs guy can beat two 400 lbs - 500 lbs Superheavyweight guys.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly your argument is wrestlers should look LARGER THAN LIFE, guys like Austin didn't look larger than life. Sure Austin was muscular, was toned but he certainly didn't look larger than life.

You're joking right? Austin was every bit the super hero. Punk just looks like a common man.

Even if HBK was only a top draw during a shitty point in wrestling doesn't mean that he has stood the test of time, is a legend and is one of the most revered wrestlers in history, most consider HBK the best wrestler of them all and he did it without looking larger than life.

Only to people who watch wrestling.

People who don't watch wrestling know who Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Cena are. They might even know who Undertaker, Jimmy Snuka, Big Show, Andre, etc. are. They don't know who CM Punk is.

You're completely missing the point.

This isn't an argument about wrestlers being a big draw.

Uhh, this is my thread, and it's EXACTLY what the argument is about. Casual people simply aren't attracted to wrestlers who look like a nobody.

CM Punk isn't a big draw and its probably not going to happen but neither is John Cena

All evidence proves you wrong.

Still, I have issues with the security guard not recognizing him. It's Madison Square Garden. The home arena for the WWE. I would get it if it was a security guard at an arena in Des Moines, Iowa, who didn't have all that much exposure to the WWE in general, let alone CM Punk. BUT THE GARDEN? How the fuck does a Garden security guard not know? The WWE has only been doing regular shows at the Garden for what, 30-40 years now? Even a newer guard, one that hasn't been there all that long should have known. This would be laughable somewhere else...but at Madison Square Garden, it's inexcusable. I don't care about whether Punk is "big enough" to look like a wrestler or anything like that, for me, this is about whether a security guard ought to at least be able to identify the performers in a show at his venue that does repeated business there. The WWE and Garden personnel ought to be familiar with each other.

Meh, the WWE MIGHT do 5 shows in MSG all year. The Knicks do 40 (normally) and if I cared about the NHL, I could tell you how many games the Rangers play there. They host something like 300 events a year, if you believe Wikipedia.

It's not inconceivable a security guard wouldn't know Punk.

Riddle me this; does anyone here believe that if Batista, Triple H, Undertaker, HBK, (This pains me, but he was damn over) Jeff Hardy, and even Edge and Jericho hadn't left the company or become part timers, that CM Punk would be in the position he is?

Compared to those man, CM Punk is not near a star

Meh, I get your point, but if Austin hadn't gotten injured, Lesnar hadn't left, Rock hadn't left, Hogan hadn't gotten old, etc. would anyone on the current roster be where they are at?

I understand what you're saying, but you could play that game all day long.

It's clearly not the problem as WWE have faith in him, and are willing to push him in that way. You're looking for ways to bash Punk, and you're not doing very well.

Wait, why is speaking the truth bashing Punk? I enjoy Punk, I've said so many times.

But you have to be realistic. There are numerous indicators to suggest Punk is not doing well as the champion. There are certainly many factors to look at, but this is just an illustration of why Punk will struggle to ever be considered one of the all-time big draws.

Yes, they made it popular. But they also helped to create a detrimental image of pro wrestling that still exists today. Mention professional wrestling to someone who isn't a fan and it's likely that they'll say it's fake, say it's cheesy and bring up steroids - and that's because of the aforementioned muscle men.

No, they'll do that because it IS fake and cheezy. People get caught for violating drug policies all the time in pro sports, doesn't seem to hurt them. UFC is filled with enormous guys with huge muscles, doesn't seem to hurt them.

No, you're not making sense at all. I suggest you gracefully bow out of this argument, as you're making yourself look bad.

 

[Daniel]

Guys like Punk,Ryder and Bryan being champions make it look more fake than it already is. There is no way a 180 lbs guy can beat two 400 lbs - 500 lbs Superheavyweight guys.

This doesn't have anything to do with the post that you quoted, but I'll deal with it anyway.

So you think the point of wrestling is to look real? No, it's to make the audience forget that it's fake.

Done in the right way, any story can be convincing - even Daniel Bryan beating Mark Henry. Did you not see their cage match?

 

[TheGreatLegend]

So you think the point of wrestling is to look real? No, it's to make the audience forget that it's fake.

Done in the right way, any story can be convincing - even Daniel Bryan beating Mark Henry. Did you not see their cage match?

WTF ? Firstly you support Punk,Bryan etc who want WWE to become UFC with no gimmicks or characters. Isn't Punk pushing the so-called "Reality Era" ? Does the Reality Era has no scripts or storylines ? Are the match results not Predetermined now ? "Reality Era" is more faker than any other eras that existed before.

 

[Coco]

In what way is GSP larger than life?

 

[Shocky]

And everyone is reacting, which means Sly wins again.

 

[Slyfox696]

In what way is GSP larger than life?

Throw in the fact he's basically been untouchable for the last several years in a legitimate sport, and women think he's drop dead sexy, and you have someone considered to be a superhero.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

In what way is GSP larger than life?

Bullshit, George Steele's Podiatrist is a fucking monster.

Btw Coco, thanks for being the only one to pay my thread from this morning a reasonable comment. I guess if I want more of a response I have to start one of the 87 threads today about Punk.

 

[Coco]

Put a shirt on GSP and stand him next to me. If you were security, I have a pretty good idea which one of us you'd let into the building.

 

[klunderbunker]

1. Austin beat up his boss, the owner of a Fortune 500 company, night in and night out for years. If that isn't larger than life and superhuman, I don't know what is.

2. If wrestling isn't about guys that are larger than life and all that jazz, why have promoters spent years lying about the heights and weights of guys to make them seem bigger than any average person? Andre was famously listed as 7'5 and about 525. I saw a picture of him next to Kareem Adbul Jabar once and they were maybe an inch apart at most. Jabar is 7'2. Hogan was called 6'8 at Mania III and is about 6'4-6'5. It's part of the business.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Do any of these guys look like pro wrestlers? Ignoring the fact that we all know who these five are, and they are in Wrestling gear. There is nothing really special about their look that people would go they were a professional fighter.

 

[Daniel]

But you have to be realistic. There are numerous indicators to suggest Punk is not doing well as the champion.

There are numerous factors to suggest he's doing well, too. How about the fact that he's sold a fuckton of merchandise? Or the fact that he gets great reactions wherever he goes?

There are certainly many factors to look at, but this is just an illustration of why Punk will struggle to ever be considered one of the all-time big draws.

Who's saying he'll be one of the all-time big draws? I'm certainly not. Anyone who tries to argue that is indeed stupid.

The smilies get boring after... well, they've always been boring.

No, they'll do that because it IS fake and cheezy. People get caught for violating drug policies all the time in pro sports, doesn't seem to hurt them. UFC is filled with enormous guys with huge muscles, doesn't seem to hurt them.

That's purely because there is little to no stigma attached to UFC now. They've managed to free themselves of the "human cockfighting" label and become a legitimate, mainstream sport. It's a triumph for UFC that the first person people think about when it comes to UFC is probably an athlete like Brock Lesnar, and not a street fighter like Tank Abbott.

However, the person people first think about when wrestling is mentioned isn't CM Punk. It probably isn't even Cena or Stone Cold. It's of Hulk Hoagn and co. - the guys who are oiled, tanned and punch eachother. That's what sticks in people's minds when it comes to wrestling - and it makes them turn their noses up at it.

No, you're not making sense at all. I suggest you gracefully bow out of this argument, as you're making yourself look bad.

Just like the smilies, I've seen this before. The arrogance shtick is funny when used against someone who'd get riled up by it, or someone who is just as arrogant. But I'm neither of those people. To me, it's just window dressing to disguise just how weak some of your points are.

However, I am going to bow out at this point. Not because I think I'm wrong, but because in a debate with you, all that happens is that you continue to reply with the same points, decorated with increasing levels of arrogance. Because of some bizarre idea you have about how getting the last word means that you win an argument, a discussion with you is just a waste of time.

WTF ? Firstly you support Punk,Bryan etc who want WWE to become UFC with no gimmicks or characters. Isn't Punk pushing the so-called "Reality Era" ? Does the Reality Era has no scripts or storylines ? Are the match results not Predetermined now ? "Reality Era" is more faker than any other eras that existed before.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Slyfox696]

There are numerous factors to suggest he's doing well, too. How about the fact that he's sold a fuckton of merchandise? Or the fact that he gets great reactions wherever he goes?

Michael Cole gets a great reaction wherever he goes, are you ready to call him a big draw?

And Punk hasn't sold a fuckton of merchandise. Punk has sold a lot of one style of shirt. That's it.

Who's saying he'll be one of the all-time big draws? I'm certainly not. Anyone who tries to argue that is indeed stupid.

Then why the fuck are you arguing with me? CM Punk will have a hard time ever being considered on the same level as someone like Cena, for one of the reasons I mentioned in the very first post of the thread.

The smilies get boring after... well, they've always been boring.

As does reading stupidity, and yet, here you are still posting it.

That's purely because there is little to no stigma attached to UFC now. They've managed to free themselves of the "human cockfighting" label and become a legitimate, mainstream sport. It's a triumph for UFC that the first person people think about when it comes to UFC is probably an athlete like Brock Lesnar, and not a street fighter like Tank Abbott.

However, the person people first think about when wrestling is mentioned isn't CM Punk. It probably isn't even Cena or Stone Cold. It's of Hulk Hoagn and co. - the guys who are oiled, tanned and punch eachother. That's what sticks in people's minds when it comes to wrestling - and it makes them turn their noses up at it.

This is what I'm talking about when it comes to stupidity. What the fuck are you talking about? Big strong guys punching each other make people think wrestling is a lower form of entertainment? Tell that to the centuries of boxing fans.

No, the reason pro wrestling has the stigma it does is because it is scripted, and for so long, they tried to tell people it wasn't. Intelligent people could see pro wrestling was scripted, and so to be continued to be lied to made people think wrestling was an insult to their intelligence. This is one of the reasons McMahon has worked so hard for decades to reclassify his product as entertainment rather than sport.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, stop. You don't have the first clue as to what is going on.

Just like the smilies, I've seen this before.

And yet, you refuse to take my good advice. Why?

The arrogance shtick is funny when used against someone who'd get riled up by it, or someone who is just as arrogant. But I'm neither of those people. To me, it's just window dressing to disguise just how weak some of your points are.

You must be joking. You're trying to tell people that big, strong, larger than life people hitting each other is why pro wrestling has a stigma. You're agreeing with my basic premise that Punk has a huge struggle to ever be a fanbase increasing draw. You tried to parlay the success of one shirt into "sold a fuckton of merchandise".

Again, I'll suggest you just stop. You're making yourself look terrible.

However, I am going to bow out at this point.

First smart thing you've done.

Not because I think I'm wrong

You are. Except for the one thing you agreed with me on...you know, the entire premise of this thread.

but because in a debate with you, all that happens is that you continue to reply with the same points, decorated with increasing levels of arrogance.

So when I'm right, I should change my arguments to wrong ones? How fucking stupid is that?

Because of some bizarre idea you have about how getting the last word means that you win an argument, a discussion with you is just a waste of time.

No, I win the argument because you're a terrible debater, and you don't know what you're talking about. It's really that simple.

 

[Stormtrooper]

As does reading stupidity, and yet, here you are still posting it.

This is why Sly is awesome. And he's right by the way. It doesn't mean CM Punk sucks or anything, just that he looks like some regular average person.

Oh, and the Rangers play 41 home games a year (plus playoffs).

Anyway, Davi323 mentioned it once and I didn't see a response, so it bears repeating. This shouldn't be a problem. In order to get into the backstage areas WWE has to issue credentials to their employees, right? Punk should have just had it with him, shown it to the guy, then be let in. If the guy didn't let him in with the proper credentials (and ID), then the guy should be fired. If Punk didn't have said info, or didn't want to show it, then it's his own fault, Punks an asshole, and the security guard was just doing his job.