The *Official* John Cena Thread

[Little Jerry Lawler]

*Sigh* You're going to make me do this, aren't you?



Until Cena shows us, "haters" something else, then he is going to continue being unrespected as a wrestler.



Yes, being a good PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER is making the people cheer, boo what have you, but being a great PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER(IMO) is a combination of all things, Crowd control, entertaining, and the ability to wrestle.



You are right, if you don't have charisma you aren't going to make it in this business. But this business isn't all promos and trash talk. I know that alot of people think that it is, but I love to see what is going to happen in the ring and with Cena, I'm disappointed more than I am satisfied.



NOTE: See last comment.



Of course they should. They are a business, however, I am the paying customer and if I don't like the product, then I am going to complain.



I do have a problem with the Rock's and Foley's moveset. If you want to debate about them, start up a new thread and I will be there to tell you why I don't like them.



You assume too much. I actually don't like The Rock at all. Outside of his interviews and promos there wasn't anything special about him. I'm glad he went to making movies, because that is where he belongs.



We'll see.



I'm glad you know this as a fact. Who's to say that it wasn't Austin's in ring work that needed to change, but it was his character. Even as Stone Cold, I recall alot of wrestling from him. I've seen him use the Sharpshooter, cobra clutch, spinebuster, suplexs and the list could go on.



I think that Cena could be even bigger if he used this technical know how that you know for a fact he has. If he actually would show some wrestling moves, he would seriously lose alot of people that dislike him and gain some new fans.



I'm not deaf. Idk where you are getting this from. He is getting a better reaction now, yes, but there are still plenty of cities that he goes to where he is disliked. Last time they were here, he was booed out of the arena. They will be are again in August for Raw, I am interested in seeing how this one turns out.



I never said you did. I simply said that, instead of the fans choosing Cena, the WWE did and that is why he is disliked by alot of people.



I've already addressed this one.



And what is the Miz doing now. It looks like he is in an angle with the divas. Wow, Cena really solidified a spot for him didn't he. It hurt Miz more than it helped. Miz is going to need someone like HBK to bring him up to ME status. I never said that Cena has refused to lose to anyone, but the fact remains that Swagger is the only one ever remotely getting over at this point.



I want you to show me or name a match and explain it in detail where they are dominated and then win. Please show me. I really want to know.



I've already said that he does this more now. Did you miss the part where I asked if you seen him in the 90's?



You sure did.

1. What was Miz doing before he feuded with Cena? Much of nothing really. Where he is now after? In the U.S. Title match with a chance to win and I say that is an improvement.

2. It's the same old "I need to see more moves" argument from you time and time again. Hogan was a great wrestler and then he turned too a "limited moveset" because the crowd popped for those moves. It didn't affect Hogan now did it, and it hasn't affected Cena. If he wins most of his matches and entertains the crowd with the moves he already has, why the hell does he need to do anything different.

3. So you think HBK is going to be a better help than Cena? Who has HBK helped since he came back and HHH doesn't count? I will be eagerly waiting for that because it may be tough to answer for you.

4. Austin did a lot of moves when he was the Ringmaster but it wasn't until after his neck injury until he started using a limited moveset. Didn't affect him now, did it?

5. As for you watching matches where Cena was dominated and came back to win, look at his Umaga and Khali matches. They're not that hard to find.

 

[Wrath]

*Sigh* You're going to make me do this, aren't you?

Do what?

Until Cena shows us, "haters" something else, then he is going to continue being unrespected as a wrestler.

Why?Just because maybe not even the %20 percent of crowd do wanna a see a different John Cena while the other %80 don't.

Yes, being a good PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER is making the people cheer, boo what have you, but being a great PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER(IMO) is a combination of all things, Crowd control, entertaining, and the ability to /wrestle.

And Cena has all of that qualities.He is entertaining,controlling the crowd and waiting yet to see his bad match.Oh right ability to wrestle means you have to be technical what a bullshit.Good in ring ability is to tell a story not doing 1000 that has no meaning and no need.

You are right, if you don't have charisma you aren't going to make it in this business. But this business isn't all promos and trash talk. I know that alot of people think that it is, but I love to see what is going to happen in the ring and with Cena, I'm disappointed more than I am satisfied.

Cena is maybe the best in ring performer in the WWE right now.Again in your logic what differs a backyard wrestler and a WWE wrestling if wrestling is all about moves.Moves are just defines your character.For example even if Cena can do a shooting star press he wouldn't do that because it's unnecesarry for someone like Cena to do that move.

NOTE: See last comment.

NOTE:See last comment.

Of course they should. They are a business, however, I am the paying customer and if I don't like the product, then I am going to complain.

Complain all you want it won't change anything.

I do have a problem with the Rock's and Foley's moveset. If you want to debate about them, start up a new thread and I will be there to tell you why I don't like them.

If I had time I would start one.

You assume too much. I actually don't like The Rock at all. Outside of his interviews and promos there wasn't anything special about him. I'm glad he went to making movies, because that is where he belongs.

Actually no the same thing that I said for Cena can be said for Rock as well.He was a great wrestler because he did what a wrestler supposed to do make him care.

I'm glad you know this as a fact. Who's to say that it wasn't Austin's in ring work that needed to change, but it was his character. Even as Stone Cold, I recall alot of wrestling from him. I've seen him use the Sharpshooter, cobra clutch, spinebuster, suplexs and the list could go on.

Moveset defines character so there's no point of Stone Cold's laying down the mat or using some lame and that's what you can't understand in wrestling.You think that how many moves you do makes you a great wrestler then I'm a good wrestler too because I can make lots of moves myself without any training such as:ddt,suplex,ankle lock,crippler crossface,clothesline,figure four leg lock etc.

I think that Cena could be even bigger if he used this technical know how that you know for a fact he has. If he actually would show some wrestling moves, he would seriously lose alot of people that dislike him and gain some new fans.

There's no point of someone in the size of Cena to be a technical wrestler.Technical wrestling has nothing to do with wrestling ability and if he can gain more fans by technical wrestling then Regal is the most popular star in the WWE but no one gives a shit about him.

I'm not deaf. Idk where you are getting this from. He is getting a better reaction now, yes, but there are still plenty of cities that he goes to where he is disliked. Last time they were here, he was booed out of the arena. They will be are again in August for Raw, I am interested in seeing how this one turns out.

Except in England I yet to hear louder boos for Cena.

I never said you did. I simply said that, instead of the fans choosing Cena, the WWE did and that is why he is disliked by alot of people.

If what you said was the truth then he wouldn't still be the top guy of the company accept the fact that Cena has more fans than haters if that wasn't the case Cena can never be the biggest draw of the company.

And what is the Miz doing now. It looks like he is in an angle with the divas. Wow, Cena really solidified a spot for him didn't he. It hurt Miz more than it helped. Miz is going to need someone like HBK to bring him up to ME status. I never said that Cena has refused to lose to anyone, but the fact remains that Swagger is the only one ever remotely getting over at this point.

No actually Miz is seemingly have a relationship storyline with Maryse that could make his heat double.If starting a relationship with a diva on screen means involving in womens division then Edge was the WWE champion in womens division.Be patient and see what'll Miz do next he doesn't seem to win US title so WWE seems to have some other plans with him wait and see and I'm telling it again if it wasn't for John Cena Vince and us wouldn't have noticed the talent of The Miz.

I want you to show me or name a match and explain it in detail where they are dominated and then win. Please show me. I really want to know.

Watch a random Orton match and see.

I've already said that he does this more now.

So right now Hbk is equally sucks as John Cena.Because he finishes matches always the same.

Did you miss the part where I asked if you seen him in the 90's?

Probably.I saw him and the only difference was him being a cocky heel and doing some more high flying stuff.

 

[SSJPhenom]

1. What was Miz doing before he feuded with Cena? Much of nothing really. Where he is now after? In the U.S. Title match with a chance to win and I say that is an improvement.

Yea he is in the match, but he is not in the angle. Why wasn't he in the six man tag on Raw? There is no way he is going to win that match, unless WWE just wants to come out of left field and let him win it.

2. It's the same old "I need to see more moves" argument from you time and time again. Hogan was a great wrestler and then he turned too a "limited moveset" because the crowd popped for those moves. It didn't affect Hogan now did it, and it hasn't affected Cena. If he wins most of his matches and entertains the crowd with the moves he already has, why the hell does he need to do anything different.

What else do you want me to say about Cena? He can't control a crowd, his promos suck, his character is stale and boring? I couldn't say that because if I did, I would be lying. His moveset is the only problem that I have with him and so I explain my problem with him. You all think that I am just a blind Cena hater, but actually, I only have one set back with him. I hate to see a match where I know what is going to happen and the outcome of the match(except for WM matches with 'Taker involved). Yes, alot of wrestlers use the same moves all the time and they are predictable, but not to the point where the outcome is clearly predictable. Like with Cena vs Miz, c'mon, we knew that Cena was going to win that match. Same goes for the majority of Cena matches.

3. So you think HBK is going to be a better help than Cena? Who has HBK helped since he came back and HHH doesn't count? I will be eagerly waiting for that because it may be tough to answer for you.

I do think that HBK will be a bigger help because he is a legend, repeat, legend of the business. 15 min with HBK, if it is a good match and you have a little bit of charisma, will make you famous. If Miz was to go over on HBK and it is done the right way. I mean a good match, with good storytelling and psychology, the Miz would shoot to ME status very quickly. It is hard to answer, because he hasn't put over anyone, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to put someone over. A case could be made that he helped Orton along when he was the Legend Killer, but whatever.

4. Austin did a lot of moves when he was the Ringmaster but it wasn't until after his neck injury until he started using a limited moveset. Didn't affect him now, did it?

No, it didn't. Austin used alot of transition moves, however, we never really seen a succession of signatures from him. Like with Cena, two shoulder blocks, backbody, 5 knuckle, attempt at a F U(not calling it the AA), some transition wrestling for a minute or two, then the F U or STFU. The only signatures that Austin did in succession were the Lou Thez Press and Running Elbow drop.

5. As for you watching matches where Cena was dominated and came back to win, look at his Umaga and Khali matches. They're not that hard to find.

So you gave me two out of how many main events has he had. And weren't those stipulation matches?

 

[SSJPhenom]

Do what?

Respond....

Why?Just because maybe not even the %20 percent of crowd do wanna a see a different John Cena while the other %80 don't.

I don't really like going by the crowd. They are different everywhere and are unpredictable, especially in Canada. Let's go by the audience, we don't know what the percentage is of Cena haters in the WWE audience. I can only tell you that alot of people that I talk to don't like Cena.

And Cena has all of that qualities.He is entertaining,controlling the crowd and waiting yet to see his bad match.Oh right ability to wrestle means you have to be technical what a bullshit.Good in ring ability is to tell a story not doing 1000 that has no meaning and no need.

I can give you two Cena bad matches. WM 24 and 25, both sucked as far as triple threats are concerned and I am alomst positive that the one at NoC will suck aswell. Yes wrestling is telling a story and ring psychology, which Cena does well, but, the moves is what tell the story and from Cena, it is the same story every time. Coming back from adversity, reaching way down deep after an arse whipping and winning the match.

Cena is maybe the best in ring performer in the WWE right now.Again in your logic what differs a backyard wrestler and a WWE wrestling if wrestling is all about moves.Moves are just defines your character.For example even if Cena can do a shooting star press he wouldn't do that because it's unnecesarry for someone like Cena to do that move.

Arguable, depends on what kind of matches you like. IDK what differs a backyard wrestler from a WWE wrestler, maybe its the stage or the opprotunity. If you took one of those backyard wrestlers and if they had some charisma, put them in a WWE ring and let them go(after some professional training of course) they probably would be very good.

NOTE:See last comment.

OK!

Complain all you want it won't change anything.

I know it won't, but it is so fun to do.

If I had time I would start one.

Oh, well I will wait for when you do have time.

Actually no the same thing that I said for Cena can be said for Rock as well.He was a great wrestler because he did what a wrestler supposed to do make him care.

Ok, so you are saying that I could be a good wrestler right. Because I can talk on a mic and I have charisma, but no wrestling experience(except for when I was a kid), but by your logic, hell, I could be the best damn thing in the WWE since Austin.

Moveset defines character so there's no point of Stone Cold's laying down the mat or using some lame and that's what you can't understand in wrestling.You think that how many moves you do makes you a great wrestler then I'm a good wrestler too because I can make lots of moves myself without any training such as:ddt,suplex,ankle lock,crippler crossface,clothesline,figure four leg lock etc.

Austin has layed down the ring though. Hell he tore it up with Hart at WM 13, with the Rock at WM 17. Those both had chain wrestling and submission wrestling in them. I'm just saying that Austin could do it and he did show it.

Good for you. I can do all those things as well, but it is a combination of things and if you have no charisma or personality, then no, you can't be a wrestler.

There's no point of someone in the size of Cena to be a technical wrestler.Technical wrestling has nothing to do with wrestling ability and if he can gain more fans by technical wrestling then Regal is the most popular star in the WWE but no one gives a shit about him.

Swagger wrestles like that all the time and he is way taller than Cena, not as ripped but he is about Cena's size. So there is no reason for him to wrestle like that then is there? Actually I love Regal, I think that his matches are a breath of fresh air.

Except in England I yet to hear louder boos for Cena.

He was booed quite heavily in that famous match that he had with Michaels on Raw in London, just go back and watch it.

If what you said was the truth then he wouldn't still be the top guy of the company accept the fact that Cena has more fans than haters if that wasn't the case Cena can never be the biggest draw of the company.

Not necassarily. HHH was the biggest draw during the Evolution years as a heel. People didn't go to cheer him, they went to see him lose.

No actually Miz is seemingly have a relationship storyline with Maryse that could make his heat double.If starting a relationship with a diva on screen means involving in womens division then Edge was the WWE champion in womens division.Be patient and see what'll Miz do next he doesn't seem to win US title so WWE seems to have some other plans with him wait and see and I'm telling it again if it wasn't for John Cena Vince and us wouldn't have noticed the talent of The Miz.

It might give Miz more heat or it might destroy him. That is a slippery slope that he is walking on right now. As for Edge, his storyline was different. It was used as a real life angle with him and Lita to bring Hardy back and Lita really wasn't wrestling then anyway. As for Vickie, that was all part of the, "Ultimate Opprotunist," or whatever.

Watch a random Orton match and see.

Ok, I will watch his WM 25 match or his last few matches on Raw.......Nope, still don't see it.

So right now Hbk is equally sucks as John Cena.Because he finishes matches always the same.

Not really. He does bore me sometimes, but not like Cena. You never know what you are going to get from HBK, you don't know if it is going to be your run of the mill match or classic when he steps in the ring. HBK does use a set of signatures to set up his SCM, which he never hits and we usaully see about 5 more minutes of wrestling before the end, but he just doesn't do signatures the whole match. Cena does.

Probably.I saw him and the only difference was him being a cocky heel and doing some more high flying stuff.

Yep, and he used alot of chain wrestling in those days aswell. HBK was outstanding and still is.

 

[Kenny Powers]

This topic will be debated till the end of time unless all the haters join the Cena bandwagon or Cena becomes heel and pleases everyone. I think my friends and I personally don't like Cena because of his moves but we use that as an excuse not to like him. When in reality: Triple H, HBK, Foley, Rock, Austin all do the same basic move sets that we cheer for. I think Cena has huge talent and amazing skills on and off the mic but lots of people look at him as a person who was handed the title in a few short years. Although, Brock Lesnar and The Rock were handed the title early in their careers and no one was complaining as much. I personally liked the heel character of Cena but it wasn't as over as his face persona is now. I believe that most people that don't get behind Cena are probably mad that he's taking the place of more familiar faces like HBK, Austin, The Rock and so on but that's life. I feel along with lots of other people that Cena comes off too exaggerated, too cocky and goofy as of late. I don't blame him or the wrestlers anymore, I blame creative for feeding them such horse shit to say on live tv. I think they talked more about Robot Chicken and Seth Green as a hobbit then they did about NOC. Cena just needs a fresh feud with someone that doesn't have the last name Orton or Triple H.

 

[Miko]

I dont know whether I like Cena or have a very low opinion of most of WWE's talent, I am going to go with liking Cena but not being too fond of (especially RAW's) Main Event scene outside of him.

Randy Orton and HHH, Orton is meh, sure he's got the old school heel method but that doesnt change the fact that I dont care about him, at all. HHH, well he's an over face no doubt, he's good at what he does, I'd still take Cena over him anyday of the week though.

I mean, he gets less TV time than HHH and Orton, who are dominating the main event fued, and yet he is easily the most interesting thing in that fued and he has nothing to do with it. Frankly I hope he wins the title at NOC (has that happened yet?) and keeps it until 2020 so we can have a champion worth watching again.

 

[Wrath]

I don't really like going by the crowd. They are different everywhere and are unpredictable, especially in Canada. Let's go by the audience, we don't know what the percentage is of Cena haters in the WWE audience.

We can know from his merchandise sells tv ratings when he is on RAW PPV buyrates.If John Cena had that much haters then ratings PPC buyrates would drop when he is on.

I can only tell you that alot of people that I talk to don't like Cena

How many 1.000 or 1.000.000

I can give you two Cena bad matches. WM 24 and 25, both sucked as far as triple threats are concerned and I am alomst positive that the one at NoC will suck aswell.

First they weren't single matches and second both of them were decent.I prefer triple threat from Wm 24 to Hbk vs Flair anyday or triple threat from 25 to all of the Orton vs HHH matches combined.

Yes wrestling is telling a story and ring psychology, which Cena does well, but, the moves is what tell the story and from Cena, it is the same story every time. Coming back from adversity, reaching way down deep after an arse whipping and winning the match.

Because it's his character someone who never gives up fighting and always find a way to comeback.Just like Edge's matches.Wrestle cowardly until he finds his oppenent's weakest position and seezing the opportunity.

Arguable, depends on what kind of matches you like. IDK what differs a backyard wrestler from a WWE wrestler, maybe its the stage or the opprotunity. If you took one of those backyard wrestlers and if they had some charisma, put them in a WWE ring and let them go(after some professional training of course) they probably would be very good.

Yeah why there is OVW or FCW from now on WWE should start to find talent from backyard and it's even an easier way isn't it?

I know it won't, but it is so fun to do.

Have fun.

Oh, well I will wait for when you do have time.

If you wanna argue that you can start a thread.

Ok, so you are saying that I could be a good wrestler right. Because I can talk on a mic and I have charisma, but no wrestling experience(except for when I was a kid), but by your logic, hell, I could be the best damn thing in the WWE since Austin.

Yes.If you find a way to connect with the crowd in your matches too.Why not?Even my brother could do the moves Hogan did in WWE but Hogan is considered as one of the if not the biggest superstar of Wrestling history.

Austin has layed down the ring though. Hell he tore it up with Hart at WM 13, with the Rock at WM 17. Those both had chain wrestling and submission wrestling in them. I'm just saying that Austin could do it and he did show it.

I don't remember his match with Hart so much so cannot argue with you in that one but I'm hell sure in his match with Rock at WM it was just a brawling match.If even there were any submissions or laying down the mat it's nothing more than Rock's sharpshooter.

Good for you. I can do all those things as well, but it is a combination of things and if you have no charisma or personality, then no, you can't be a wrestler.

Hey that's what I'm talking about since this argument's start.Without a charisma or personality it doesn't matter how great a in ring technician you are.

Swagger wrestles like that all the time and he is way taller than Cena, not as ripped but he is about Cena's size. So there is no reason for him to wrestle like that then is there?

I have never said Cena can't wrestle a technical style I think he can do it better than maybe the most of the roster but it's pointless just like it's with Swagger.Swagger could've been a better powerhouse than technical.

Actually I love Regal,

But people find him boring look at people's face and reactions in a Regal match.

I think that his matches are a breath of fresh air.

Doing some suplexes stiff punches and lots of botches yeah pretty fresh.

He was booed quite heavily in that famous match that he had with Michaels on Raw in London, just go back and watch it.

I think I was misunderstood what I was trying to say is Except in London I've never heard louder boos than cheers for Cena.

Not necassarily. HHH was the biggest draw during the Evolution years as a heel. People didn't go to cheer him, they went to see him lose

No it was Lesnar.HHH wasn't even close to him.

It might give Miz more heat or it might destroy him. That is a slippery slope that he is walking on right now. As for Edge, his storyline was different. It was used as a real life angle with him and Lita to bring Hardy back and Lita really wasn't wrestling then anyway. As for Vickie, that was all part of the, "Ultimate Opprotunist," or whatever.

It's up to Miz if he capitalize his opportunity he'll be something big in the future but if he can't he'll sink in the water.But Cena did his job and carried Miz to next level now everyting is in Miz's hands.

Ok, I will watch his WM 25 match or his last few matches on Raw.......Nope, still don't see it.

Watch his matches with Bourne on RAW then or his match on Backlash.

Not really. He does bore me sometimes, but not like Cena. You never know what you are going to get from HBK, you don't know if it is going to be your run of the mill match or classic when he steps in the ring. HBK does use a set of signatures to set up his SCM, which he never hits and we usaully see about 5 more minutes of wrestling before the end, but he just doesn't do signatures the whole match. Cena does.

Actually does lots of time.In a match where he is dominated by someone and then superman healing and signature moves just like what Cena does.

Yep, and he used alot of chain wrestling in those days aswell.HBK was outstanding and still is.

I did not say anything otherwise but if you don't like Cena's signature moves you shouldn't like Hbk's too they're fucking same thing.

 

[SSJPhenom]

We can know from his merchandise sells tv ratings when he is on RAW PPV buyrates.If John Cena had that much haters then ratings PPC buyrates would drop when he is on.

Are you an accountant or something for the WWE? I am fan and buyrates or merchandise sales do not intrest me at all. Mysterio sales alot of merchandise too, so does 'Taker and Jeff Hardy. Does that mean that they are the best today?

How many 1.000 or 1.000.000

We will see on August 24th when they are here in Vegas.

First they weren't single matches and second both of them were decent.I prefer triple threat from Wm 24 to Hbk vs Flair anyday or triple threat from 25 to all of the Orton vs HHH matches combined.

They weren't singles matches, you are right. Let's see. Cena vs. The Miz at the Bash, Cena vs. Batista at Summerslam. Is that enough or do I need more? Before you respond let me just say: Cena vs. Bastista at Summerslam was a joke. Especailly since Cena got hurt in the match. It wasn't anything except for high impact move after high impact move and what story did it tell? Nothing! There isn't anything worse than two big guys trying to put on a good match when neither one can wrestle.

Because it's his character someone who never gives up fighting and always find a way to comeback.Just like Edge's matches.Wrestle cowardly until he finds his oppenent's weakest position and seezing the opportunity.

It's Undertaker's character to be impervious to pain, but we see him get defeated. It is HHH character to be cunning and taxing in the ring, but we don't see that from him anymore. Cena's character has become some what of a joke, talking about hobits and such on Raw. They talked about that more then they did their match.

Yeah why there is OVW or FCW from now on WWE should start to find talent from backyard and it's even an easier way isn't it?

Well it is obviously there to train new wrestlers, even if they were discovered in a back yard, they would have to be trained. I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic here or if you agree.

Have fun.

I am.

If you wanna argue that you can start a thread.

Naw, it doesn't intrest me enough to start a thread about it, besides, I am involved in way to many at this point.

Yes.If you find a way to connect with the crowd in your matches too.Why not?Even my brother could do the moves Hogan did in WWE but Hogan is considered as one of the if not the biggest superstar of Wrestling history.

Thanks, you have given me all the confidence in the world. "Mama, I'm going to be a professional wrestler, because all I have to do is talk everybody to death, but make sure they like what I am saying." There used to be a day when all that was said was, "Come this Sunday night, I'm going to whip your ass." Now it's like a debate every week on the show and it is starting to get boring.

I don't remember his match with Hart so much so cannot argue with you in that one but I'm hell sure in his match with Rock at WM it was just a brawling match.If even there were any submissions or laying down the mat it's nothing more than Rock's sharpshooter.

Austin used a cobra clutch in this match, the sharpshooter, several suplexes, he even uses a headlock and a hammer lock in this match with The Rock at WM 17. Go and watch it.

Hey that's what I'm talking about since this argument's start.Without a charisma or personality it doesn't matter how great a in ring technician you are.

And I have never denied it, but you are trying to say that the moves make no difference. So let me ask you: If Cena, HHH, and Orton just come out at NoC, don't wrestle but instead use their charisma and personality to verbally tell a story, what would you think or do?

I have never said Cena can't wrestle a technical style I think he can do it better than maybe the most of the roster but it's pointless just like it's with Swagger.Swagger could've been a better powerhouse than technical.

Aw, double standard here. According to you, it is alright for Cena not to be technical because it is not befitting of his character, but Jack Swagger is, "The All American American," but you are saying that, even though he is known for wrestling he shouldn't because he is a big guy? Make up your mind.

but people find him boring look at people's face and reactions in a Regal match.

I personally love his matches myself.

Doing some suplexes stiff punches and lots of botches yeah pretty fresh.

Yep, love it.

I think I was misunderstood what I was trying to say is Except in London I've never heard louder boos than cheers for Cena.

That is not what you said at all. You said, "Except in England, I have yet to hear louder boos." Isn't London in England?

No it was Lesnar.HHH wasn't even close to him.

That's laughable. Where is your buyrate knowledge and stuff now? This was back when they still had seperate ppv events and I can specifically recall Raw's ratings were always higher than SD at this time. I'm sorry but HHH was the biggest draw and if you don't think so then prove it.

It's up to Miz if he capitalize his opportunity he'll be something big in the future but if he can't he'll sink in the water.But Cena did his job and carried Miz to next level now everyting is in Miz's hands.

I still think that HBK can take him higher, but that's my opinion.

Watch his matches with Bourne on RAW then or his match on Backlash.

Does that qualify as a real match. C'mon, it was a guantlet.

Actually does lots of time.In a match where he is dominated by someone and then superman healing and signature moves just like what Cena does.

C'mon, give me an example.

I did not say anything otherwise but if you don't like Cena's signature moves you shouldn't like Hbk's too they're fucking same thing.

All Cena does is signatures though, whether they be at the end of the match or not, he does the exact same moves the entire match. You don't see Michaels 5 moves until around the end and we are still never sure with Michaels if it is the end or not. We don't even get alot of transistion wrestling from Cena.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Yea he is in the match, but he is not in the angle. Why wasn't he in the six man tag on Raw? There is no way he is going to win that match, unless WWE just wants to come out of left field and let him win it.



What else do you want me to say about Cena? He can't control a crowd, his promos suck, his character is stale and boring? I couldn't say that because if I did, I would be lying. His moveset is the only problem that I have with him and so I explain my problem with him. You all think that I am just a blind Cena hater, but actually, I only have one set back with him. I hate to see a match where I know what is going to happen and the outcome of the match(except for WM matches with 'Taker involved). Yes, alot of wrestlers use the same moves all the time and they are predictable, but not to the point where the outcome is clearly predictable. Like with Cena vs Miz, c'mon, we knew that Cena was going to win that match. Same goes for the majority of Cena matches.



I do think that HBK will be a bigger help because he is a legend, repeat, legend of the business. 15 min with HBK, if it is a good match and you have a little bit of charisma, will make you famous. If Miz was to go over on HBK and it is done the right way. I mean a good match, with good storytelling and psychology, the Miz would shoot to ME status very quickly. It is hard to answer, because he hasn't put over anyone, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to put someone over. A case could be made that he helped Orton along when he was the Legend Killer, but whatever.



No, it didn't. Austin used alot of transition moves, however, we never really seen a succession of signatures from him. Like with Cena, two shoulder blocks, backbody, 5 knuckle, attempt at a F U(not calling it the AA), some transition wrestling for a minute or two, then the F U or STFU. The only signatures that Austin did in succession were the Lou Thez Press and Running Elbow drop.



So you gave me two out of how many main events has he had. And weren't those stipulation matches?

What was Umaga doing before he faced Cena? He was beating up jobbers and nobody cared. What happened after he faced Cena? He was in the biggest storyline in Wrestlemania. I would say that is putting somebody over on the job of Cena.

What about Khali? He was beating up jobbers as well. What happened after he faced Cena? He was world champion the next month. I know you would say he only got the championship because Edge got injured. So why didn't Kane or Batista win that battle royal?

And I didn't know that you can't put somebody over in a stipulation match and it has to be a regular match. Mick Foley is probably somewhere crying right now because of that.


I rest my case.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Are you an accountant or something for the WWE? I am fan and buyrates or merchandise sales do not intrest me at all. Mysterio sales alot of merchandise too, so does 'Taker and Jeff Hardy. Does that mean that they are the best today?



We will see on August 24th when they are here in Vegas.



They weren't singles matches, you are right. Let's see. Cena vs. The Miz at the Bash, Cena vs. Batista at Summerslam. Is that enough or do I need more? Before you respond let me just say: Cena vs. Bastista at Summerslam was a joke. Especailly since Cena got hurt in the match. It wasn't anything except for high impact move after high impact move and what story did it tell? Nothing! There isn't anything worse than two big guys trying to put on a good match when neither one can wrestle.



It's Undertaker's character to be impervious to pain, but we see him get defeated. It is HHH character to be cunning and taxing in the ring, but we don't see that from him anymore. Cena's character has become some what of a joke, talking about hobits and such on Raw. They talked about that more then they did their match.



Well it is obviously there to train new wrestlers, even if they were discovered in a back yard, they would have to be trained. I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic here or if you agree.



I am.



Naw, it doesn't intrest me enough to start a thread about it, besides, I am involved in way to many at this point.



Thanks, you have given me all the confidence in the world. "Mama, I'm going to be a professional wrestler, because all I have to do is talk everybody to death, but make sure they like what I am saying." There used to be a day when all that was said was, "Come this Sunday night, I'm going to whip your ass." Now it's like a debate every week on the show and it is starting to get boring.



Austin used a cobra clutch in this match, the sharpshooter, several suplexes, he even uses a headlock and a hammer lock in this match with The Rock at WM 17. Go and watch it.



And I have never denied it, but you are trying to say that the moves make no difference. So let me ask you: If Cena, HHH, and Orton just come out at NoC, don't wrestle but instead use their charisma and personality to verbally tell a story, what would you think or do?



Aw, double standard here. According to you, it is alright for Cena not to be technical because it is not befitting of his character, but Jack Swagger is, "The All American American," but you are saying that, even though he is known for wrestling he shouldn't because he is a big guy? Make up your mind.



I personally love his matches myself.



Yep, love it.



That is not what you said at all. You said, "Except in England, I have yet to hear louder boos." Isn't London in England?



That's laughable. Where is your buyrate knowledge and stuff now? This was back when they still had seperate ppv events and I can specifically recall Raw's ratings were always higher than SD at this time. I'm sorry but HHH was the biggest draw and if you don't think so then prove it.



I still think that HBK can take him higher, but that's my opinion.



Does that qualify as a real match. C'mon, it was a guantlet.



C'mon, give me an example.



All Cena does is signatures though, whether they be at the end of the match or not, he does the exact same moves the entire match. You don't see Michaels 5 moves until around the end and we are still never sure with Michaels if it is the end or not. We don't even get alot of transistion wrestling from Cena.

For the last time, Cena got hurt during the ending of the match which had no effect on it whatsoever. I'll still take that match over HBK/Flair any day of the week and you can't convince me otherwise.

Mysterio and Hardy are the only ones (maybe HHH) that sell as much merchandise as Cena. Undertaker selling as much merch as Cena is just laughable.

Sure Cena plays to the kids sometimes, but this is a whole new era we are talking about and if he keeps getting cheers from the kids he will keep doing it. Sort of like how Austin pandered to the crowd during the Attitude Era.

 

[SSJPhenom]

What was Umaga doing before he faced Cena? He was beating up jobbers and nobody cared. What happened after he faced Cena? He was in the biggest storyline in Wrestlemania. I would say that is putting somebody over on the job of Cena.

What's Umaga doing now? Don't worry, I will wait.

What about Khali? He was beating up jobbers as well. What happened after he faced Cena? He was world champion the next month. I know you would say he only got the championship because Edge got injured. So why didn't Kane or Batista win that battle royal?

What has Khali been doing before Kane? Kiss cam!?!?!?!

And I didn't know that you can't put somebody over in a stipulation match and it has to be a regular match. Mick Foley is probably somewhere crying right now because of that.

I never said that you couldn't put someone over in a stipulation match. But that whole conversation started when you attempted to give me two Cena matches where he wasn't dominated only to come back and win. That is what you were trying to do, you said nothing about putting anyone over.

I rest my case.

Well, I'm glad that you conceded before I did.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

What's Umaga doing now? Don't worry, I will wait.



What has Khali been doing before Kane? Kiss cam!?!?!?!



I never said that you couldn't put someone over in a stipulation match. But that whole conversation started when you attempted to give me two Cena matches where he wasn't dominated only to come back and win. That is what you were trying to do, you said nothing about putting anyone over.



Well, I'm glad that you conceded before I did.

So tell me how whats the appropriate length of time before he we consider a wrestler being "put over". Umaga had a string of injuries and you can't blame that on Cena. At the end of the day, Khali was a heavyweight champion one month after feuding with Cena. His heel run is over and now is a cheered face. Still pretty successful to me.

Those two Cena matches I gave you were instances where he was dominated and came back to win, I believe. Umaga and Khali were in control most of their matches and Cena came back to win. Pretty simple.

 

[SSJPhenom]

For the last time, Cena got hurt during the ending of the match which had no effect on it whatsoever. I'll still take that match over HBK/Flair any day of the week and you can't convince me otherwise.

I know that he got hurt at the end of that match, but it was all sort of anti climatic. That's your opinion on which is better and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, I am simply telling you that I didn't like the match and why I didn't like the match. I prefer HBK/Flair or HBK/Angle, regardless if it was two old guys or if it was a, "spotfest," and your not going to convince me otherwise.

Mysterio and Hardy are the only ones (maybe HHH) that sell as much merchandise as Cena. Undertaker selling as much merch as Cena is just laughable.

Stop putting words into my mouth please. I never said that he sold has much as Cena, I said that he sold alot. As do Hardy or Mysterio. Do we really know who sales the most? No. If you want to go by the crowd, I see more Mysterio masks in the crowd than I do Cena shirts or caps.

Sure Cena plays to the kids sometimes, but this is a whole new era we are talking about and if he keeps getting cheers from the kids he will keep doing it. Sort of like how Austin pandered to the crowd during the Attitude Era.

Difference between Austin and Cena is, that Austin didn't have a core audience. Well of course he had a core audience but it wasn't as clear cut as it is with Cena and prebuesent boys. Austin appealed to any and everyone(except the hardcore christian type). Best example of this can I can think is, as a child I loved Austin and right there with me was my father, my older brother, my uncles, and so on. I haven't really never met anyone who likes wrestling but doesn't like Austin(except for the hardcore christian type).

 

[Blue Chipper]

I know that he got hurt at the end of that match, but it was all sort of anti climatic. That's your opinion on which is better and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, I am simply telling you that I didn't like the match and why I didn't like the match. I prefer HBK/Flair or HBK/Angle, regardless if it was two old guys or if it was a, "spotfest," and your not going to convince me otherwise.

Nobody cares what match you prefer, or what match I prefer, however the collective opinions of the fans is what actually matters.

Stop putting words into my mouth please. I never said that he sold has much as Cena, I said that he sold alot. As do Hardy or Mysterio. Do we really know who sales the most? No. If you want to go by the crowd, I see more Mysterio masks in the crowd than I do Cena shirts or caps.

So, which are you saying? Either someone (Mysterio) has better merch sales than cena or not. But, Mysterio's masks are probably his top selling item, whilst Cena consistently sales a variety of things that are seemingly "top selling".

Difference between Austin and Cena is, that Austin didn't have a core audience. Well of course he had a core audience but it wasn't as clear cut as it is with Cena and prebuesent boys. Austin appealed to any and everyone(except the hardcore christian type). Best example of this can I can think is, as a child I loved Austin and right there with me was my father, my older brother, my uncles, and so on. I haven't really never met anyone who likes wrestling but doesn't like Austin(except for the hardcore christian type).

Fact is, Cena has a variety of fans that vary from child to adult, and male to female. He doesn't quite have the fan base of SCSA yet, however.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Nobody cares what match you prefer, or what match I prefer, however the collective opinions of the fans is what actually matters.

Well obviously the collective opinion is that HBK/Flair was better than Cena/Batista because HBK/Flair won match of the year. Supposedly, it's the fans who vote on that. Also, Angle/HBK at WM 21 won match of the year, so what's your point? Little Jerry Lawler said he prefered Batista/Cena to HBK/Flair and I disagreed, isn't that wha this thread is for?

So, which are you saying? Either someone (Mysterio) has better merch sales than cena or not. But, Mysterio's masks are probably his top selling item, whilst Cena consistently sales a variety of things that are seemingly "top selling".

Neither! Yet again I was trying to prove a point in a previous post. Someone was trying to prove Cena's merits by his saleing ability and I simply stated that Mysterio and Jeff Hardy sell alot of merchandise too, maybe even more. Can we be sure? No!

Fact is, Cena has a variety of fans that vary from child to adult, and male to female. He doesn't quite have the fan base of SCSA yet, however.

Cena appeals to more kids than he does anything. Sure, there are adults, teens and such that like him, but it is fact that he appeals to young boys. Where as Austin had a much wider variety of fan base.

 

[Wrath]

Are you an accountant or something for the WWE? I am fan and buyrates or merchandise sales do not intrest me at all. Mysterio sales alot of merchandise too, so does 'Taker and Jeff Hardy. Does that mean that they are the best today?

Yes and thats why they're main eventers right now.Even after Jeff Hardy's two strikes and some personal problems they still push him in hell.If your logic was right then people like Hogan,Foley and Rock don't have any place in wrestling but look at the irony they're considered as some of the best wrestlers in history.

We will see on August 24th when they are here in Vegas.

We don't have to wait until August just watch RAW on this Monday.

They weren't singles matches, you are right.

Yep.

Let's see. Cena vs. The Miz at the Bash,

It was a decent match for a short match again cannot even considered as a squash match.First Cena sold some of his offense and it gave confidence to Miz then Cena returned his game and shut The Miz's huge mouth up.Even if it's considered as a squash I'd prefer this match any day of the week to Big Show's,Khali's and Kozlov's.

Cena vs. Batista at Summerslam.

Again a good match.

Is that enough or do I need more?

You need so much more because these two matches that you've listed far from bad.

Before you respond let me just say: Cena vs. Bastista at Summerslam was a joke. Especailly since Cena got hurt in the match. It wasn't anything except for high impact move after high impact move and what story did it tell? Nothing! There isn't anything worse than two big guys trying to put on a good match when neither one can wrestle.

It was an ok match.Yes nothing special happened except the last spot but it does not make it a bad match.Story was simple two man try to prove each other who is the better man and when they're doing it they're using their power moves.Oh I understood why this match is shit because it's not technical.I don't know which idiot found this shitty idea but being a good pro wrestler has nothing to do with technical abilities.In your logic Mankind vs Undertaker was one of the fucking worst matches ever.That match is only remembered by two spots.

It's Undertaker's character to be impervious to pain, but we see him get defeated.

So do John Cena.He's lost various opponents:Edge,Big Show,Hbk,Batista...

It is HHH character to be cunning and taxing in the ring, but we don't see that from him anymore.

His character is actually more about being the best of best and he does it with always chasing and winning the titles.

Cena's character has become some what of a joke, talking about hobits and such on Raw.

It was the funniest thing on RAW after considering texas tuxedo match,and all of that Santino/and two long beared man so called comedy skits.

They talked about that more then they did their match.

What were your math grades?Hobbit topic only lasted 10 seconds.Their match were at least about 10-11 minutes.

Well it is obviously there to train new wrestlers, even if they were discovered in a back yard, they would have to be trained. I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic here or if you agree.

Why they can do all of that moves without training.What the point of it?

I am.

Good for you.

Naw, it doesn't intrest me enough to start a thread about it, besides, I am involved in way to many at this point.

Then you have to wait until I have some time.

Thanks, you have given me all the confidence in the world.

You're welcome.

"Mama, I'm going to be a professional wrestler, because all I have to do is talk everybody to death, but make sure they like what I am saying."

Yep that's it now go and tell your mama.

There used to be a day when all that was said was, "Come this Sunday night, I'm going to whip your ass." Now it's like a debate every week on the show and it is starting to get boring.

People aren't bored of Rock's same catchphrases in every promo,or Austin's flipping and swears or Hogan's eat your vitamins thing.

Austin used a cobra clutch in this match, the sharpshooter, several suplexes, he even uses a headlock and a hammer lock in this match with The Rock at WM 17. Go and watch it.

Even those moves were used like you said it didn't make it any technical it was a simple brawling match.At least %70 percent of the match they traded kicks and punches.

And I have never denied it, but you are trying to say that the moves make no difference. So let me ask you: If Cena, HHH, and Orton just come out at NoC, don't wrestle but instead use their charisma and personality to verbally tell a story, what would you think or do?

I just said which moves you know or how many moves you know doesn't matter as long as you can keep the crowd connected to match.Watch Warrior vs Hogan match from WM VI.One of the hottest crowds I've ever seen and one of the biggest WM main events ever.The only moves Warrior and Hogan did were just few slams.

Aw, double standard here. According to you, it is alright for Cena not to be technical because it is not befitting of his character, but Jack Swagger is, "The All American American," but you are saying that, even though he is known for wrestling he shouldn't because he is a big guy? Make up your mind.

Nothing double standart in here.The only thing I said was Cena can be a technical wrestler if he wants so much but there is no need just like there is no need for Swagger he could've been a very good powerhouse wrestler.

I personally love his matches myself.

But you're in minority and I'm sorry WWE cares the majority's opinions so much more.

Yep, love it.

Only thing different than Cena's moves are some suplexes ah yeah if Cena lay down the mat 50 minutes for no reason then make some suplexes and using some stiff punches it'll make him one of the greatest wrestlers of all time in your book and people like Dave Meltzer will give him 5 stars.Yeah the only thing Cena needs is being boring and make people not to care about him.

That is not what you said at all. You said, "Except in England, I have yet to hear louder boos." Isn't London in England?

Yeah my fault sorry.

That's laughable.

Laugh if you want but you have no choice but accept Lesnar was bigger draw.That's why WWE gave him everyting in just 3 years.Triple H needed Hbk and DX to get over and it made him years to over and look at Lesnar it took just some months.

Where is your buyrate knowledge and stuff now?

http://www.pwrestlingnews.com/wwe/ppv-buyrate/ check it out when Lesnar was champion and main eventing.

This was back when they still had seperate ppv events and I can specifically recall Raw's ratings were always higher than SD at this time.

It's the funniest post I've ever seen.When have you seen SD's ratings higher than RAW.It has several reasons like not being live or always being B show but look at the SD's ratings in Lesnar's era they were always in 2.9's and 3.2 3.3 and I'm looking RAW's at that time 3.5's 3.9's sometimes 4's you wanna proof? http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm
And look at SD's ratings right now and see the difference.

I'm sorry but HHH was the biggest draw and if you don't think so then prove it.

I did.

I still think that HBK can take him higher, but that's my opinion.

Our argument is not who can take him higher.Did Cena take him higher.Yes.So he did his job.

Does that qualify as a real match.C'mon, it was a guantlet.

Yeah but until an another opponent comes it's single.

C'mon, give me an example.

Khali vs Hbk from RAW or Kozlov vs Hbk.

All Cena does is signatures though, whether they be at the end of the match or not, he does the exact same moves the entire match.

Yeah and like I said before it only makes him a better wrestler.He puts 4/1 effort than other wrestlers and gets 2x more over than anyone on the roster.

You don't see Michaels 5 moves until around the end and we are still never sure with Michaels if it is the end or not. We don't even get alot of transistion wrestling from Cena.

I posted it above he does it lots of times and nothing wrong with that because wrestling has nothing to do with these things you're talking about it's making people care yourself and crowd think that when they boo Cena they do something right no actually he makes you care in different way and whenever Cena is in the ring %100 of the crowd reacts him negative or positive so that makes John Cena the best wrestler WWE can offer.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Yes and thats why they're main eventers right now.Even after Jeff Hardy's two strikes and some personal problems they still push him in hell.If your logic was right then people like Hogan,Foley and Rock don't have any place in wrestling but look at the irony they're considered as some of the best wrestlers in history.

Who consider's the Rock one of the best in history? You do? Your opinion is so highly respected that if you do, then it must be so. I can't recall anyone in the business saying this much. Yea, he had some catch phrases and he sold some shit, but is he a legend of wrestling? Hell no and far from it. I love Foley to death but he is also the biggest spot wrestler of all time. If he hadn't have taken that dive off the cage, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

We don't have to wait until August just watch RAW on this Monday.

Ok............

It was a decent match for a short match again cannot even considered as a squash match.First Cena sold some of his offense and it gave confidence to Miz then Cena returned his game and shut The Miz's huge mouth up.Even if it's considered as a squash I'd prefer this match any day of the week to Big Show's,Khali's and Kozlov's.

Being better than Show, Khali, or Kozlov isn't that big of an accomplishment. Miz vs Cena wasn't a descent match, not for a PPV anyway. It looked like a regular Raw match to me. Hell their match on Raw was better than their match at the Bash.

Again a good match.

Your opinion and it is duely noted.

You need so much more because these two matches that you've listed far from bad.

Last match with HHH on Raw. Any of his last few matches with the Big Show.

It was an ok match.Yes nothing special happened except the last spot but it does not make it a bad match.Story was simple two man try to prove each other who is the better man and when they're doing it they're using their power moves.Oh I understood why this match is shit because it's not technical.I don't know which idiot found this shitty idea but being a good pro wrestler has nothing to do with technical abilities.In your logic Mankind vs Undertaker was one of the fucking worst matches ever.That match is only remembered by two spots.

By my logic, yes 'Taker and Mankind was a horrible match, but it was also a gimmick match and you expect alot from those. Anyway, I hated Mankind vs. Undertaker(HIAC). Just because my name says 'Taker's # 1 fan doesn't mean that I am going to praise everything he does. That match was aweful and I would rather watch Batista vs Cena than that match, but like Taker vs Mankind in HIAC, Batista vs Cena wasn't anything but big spot after big spot, it sucked.

So do John Cena.He's lost various opponents:Edge,Big Show,Hbk,Batista...

I never said he didn't lose, I was just showing instances where he broke character.

His character is actually more about being the best of best and he does it with always chasing and winning the titles.

I'm only going to say two words here, "Cerebral Assassin."

It was the funniest thing on RAW after considering texas tuxedo match,and all of that Santino/and two long beared man so called comedy skits.

Perhaps if you were a 10 to 15 year old it was funny, for me it was completely boring.

What were your math grades?Hobbit topic only lasted 10 seconds.Their match were at least about 10-11 minutes.

Math was my biggest subject. I meant that they talked about hobbits and Seth Green more than they promoted their match at NoC.

Why they can do all of that moves without training.What the point of it?

Have to learn to be safe in the ring.

Good for you.

Thanks....

Then you have to wait until I have some time.

No rush.

You're welcome.

Ok....

Yep that's it now go and tell your mama.

I did and she didn't approve.

People aren't bored of Rock's same catchphrases in every promo,or Austin's flipping and swears or Hogan's eat your vitamins thing.

Who are these people you keep talking about? I was very bored with the Rock, for a long damn time. Even though Austin swore alot, at least he said something different all the time.

Even those moves were used like you said it didn't make it any technical it was a simple brawling match.At least %70 percent of the match they traded kicks and punches.

I am going to watch that match again and actually time it and then subtract how much of the match that used actual wrestling moves from the match total time and tell the percentage, guarantee that it is less than 70%.

I just said which moves you know or how many moves you know doesn't matter as long as you can keep the crowd connected to match.Watch Warrior vs Hogan match from WM VI.One of the hottest crowds I've ever seen and one of the biggest WM main events ever.The only moves Warrior and Hogan did were just few slams.

The crowd was just excited. To think about it though, that match wasn't so special. Except, of course, you had the best person ever in wrestling history at hyping and contronling the crowd in it. Cena isn't anywhere near Hogan's level of captivating an audience and I don't think that he ever will be.

Nothing double standart in here.The only thing I said was Cena can be a technical wrestler if he wants so much but there is no need just like there is no need for Swagger he could've been a very good powerhouse wrestler.

Yea, double standard. You said that it isn't in Cena's character to technical wrestle, well it isn't in Swagger's character to power wrestle, whether you think so or not. Moves compliment character, remember?

But you're in minority and I'm sorry WWE cares the majority's opinions so much more.

I know I'm a in the minority, thanks for the heads up.

Only thing different than Cena's moves are some suplexes ah yeah if Cena lay down the mat 50 minutes for no reason then make some suplexes and using some stiff punches it'll make him one of the greatest wrestlers of all time in your book and people like Dave Meltzer will give him 5 stars.Yeah the only thing Cena needs is being boring and make people not to care about him.

We don't see the same moves from Regal every signle match though. Bret Hart wrestled like this and he was anything short of boring. Was Angle boring?

Yeah my fault sorry.

You better be.

Laugh if you want but you have no choice but accept Lesnar was bigger draw.That's why WWE gave him everyting in just 3 years.Triple H needed Hbk and DX to get over and it made him years to over and look at Lesnar it took just some months.

Heyman got Lesnar over and IDC how long it took HHH, who is the bigger wrestling name?

http://www.pwrestlingnews.com/wwe/ppv-buyrate/ check it out when Lesnar was champion and main eventing.

I checked it out and Lesnar was the biggest in '03, however HHH was the biggest in '04, according to the site you gave me.

It's the funniest post I've ever seen.When have you seen SD's ratings higher than RAW.It has several reasons like not being live or always being B show but look at the SD's ratings in Lesnar's era they were always in 2.9's and 3.2 3.3 and I'm looking RAW's at that time 3.5's 3.9's sometimes 4's you wanna proof? http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm
And look at SD's ratings right now and see the difference.

It doesn't matter. If Lesnar could draw so much, why did they keep him on SD. They moved Cena when he got big, why not move Lesnar?

I did.

Yes, you did help me prove my point.

Our argument is not who can take him higher.Did Cena take him higher.Yes.So he did his job.

Cena is so good at putting people over, look at what he did for Christian in '05. Oh, that's right, Christian didn't go anywhere and ended up having to leave the company.

Yeah but until an another opponent comes it's single.

Bourne didn't dominate that match, by no means. He hit his few high flying moves, but Orton was in control.

Yeah and like I said before it only makes him a better wrestler.He puts 4/1 effort than other wrestlers and gets 2x more over than anyone on the roster.

I don't see how it makes him a better wrestler. Maybe I'm just being specific. I will give you it makes him the better entertainer, but I like going for the literal definition of the word wrestler, and that is something Cena is not. Yes I know that you are going to say that half the roster isn't either, but more guys on the roster show more wrestling skill than Cena does.

I posted it above he does it lots of times and nothing wrong with that because wrestling has nothing to do with these things you're talking about it's making people care yourself and crowd think that when they boo Cena they do something right no actually he makes you care in different way and whenever Cena is in the ring %100 of the crowd reacts him negative or positive so that makes John Cena the best wrestler WWE can offer.

Maybe it is just a matter of what a person likes. I like to see wrestling matches and Cena doesn't give me that. IDC what you say and your points are valid, however, I'm not going to change what I like in wrestling because the biggest face of the WWE comes along and challenges it.

 

[Dave]

You know, I was watching Smackdown on Friday night. Just before the Ziggler match there was an archived match that came on. It was John Cena vs Chris Jericho. Cena was tremendous, I mean really brilliant. No on could say that he only knew five moves because he was suplexing and shit all over the place. My point is, I think that Cena has sort of boxed himself in to an extent. He has become his character and not the other way around, if that makes any sense at all

By that I mean that, for some reason John Cena seems to have typecast himself as what people see him as today. He uses the same moves because that's what people mark out for, that's what people want to see him do. the match with Jericho he was so varied that I almost did not recognise him at all. Cena just seems to have become the wrestler that people want him to be. In my opinion, he was better as rookie. No one expected him to blow the tops off arenas and he was better wrestler back then.

 

[Wrath]

Who consider's the Rock one of the best in history?

Hmm at least %90 percent of wrestling fans.He's considered on top 3 of all time.

You do?

Yeah so do I.

Your opinion is so highly respected that if you do, then it must be so.

Yep.

I can't recall anyone in the business saying this much. Yea, he had some catch phrases and he sold some shit, but is he a legend of wrestling?

Yeah did what he's supposed to do.Not bore the crowd with laying the mat for 20 minutes in a fake sport.

Hell no and far from it.

Not that far he's number 3.

I love Foley to death but he is also the biggest spot wrestler of all timeIf he hadn't have taken that dive off the cage, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Who cares he made crowd cared about him.He did not have very good technical skills or a good look but crowd cared him and wanted to see him.Remember Monday Night Wars huh?Rock vs Mankind No dq people watched that match even they knew who was gonna win the match.

Being better than Show, Khali, or Kozlov isn't that big of an accomplishment.

How?These guys that I are listed should be exciting to watch when they are dominating people but they're hell boring.So Cena has beaten them in what they should do best.

Miz vs Cena wasn't a descent match,not for a PPV anyway.

It was decent for that short of match.

It looked like a regular Raw match to me.

It was better than so many matches that I can list from last monday.

Hell their match on Raw was better than their match at the Bash.

It was the whole story that people couldn't understood.First Miz doing all the thrastalking until Cena shut his mouth up and then he lost his confidence and learned something from Bash so he was more like a threat on RAW.It was the whole story of the feud.

Your opinion and it is duely noted.

Just like Batista vs Cena being shit it was only your opinion:You want proof look at how hot crowd was.

Last match with HHH on Raw.

It was a decent match again but true it was not technical your shitty wrestling logic continues.

Any of his last few matches with the Big Show.

Yeah they were pretty bad but tell me last exciting Big Show match since his return.Cena put his best but only thing Big Show did was boring punches.

By my logic, yes 'Taker and Mankind was a horrible match, but it was also a gimmick match and you expect alot from those. Anyway, I hated Mankind vs. Undertaker(HIAC). Just because my name says 'Taker's # 1 fan doesn't mean that I am going to praise everything he does. That match was aweful and I would rather watch Batista vs Cena than that match, but like Taker vs Mankind in HIAC,

Don't even need to answer this like you said by your logic.Just because it was not technical.If you love that style too much watch something like NCAA.Sorry but technical wrestling is just one of the wrestling styles there were some great technical wrestlers like Hart,Hennig,Benoit etc. but also so many sucked technical wrestlers like Malenko and Regal because people didn't give a shit about them.They watched WCW for people like Hulk Motherfuckin' Hogan,Flair and Sting not for Malenko or Regal.

Batista vs Cena wasn't anything but big spot after big spot, it sucked.

No it sucked in your logic because it was not technical..

I never said he didn't lose, I was just showing instances where he broke character.

Taker's gimmick has never been undefeatable it was/is always about(except biker gimmick) being Deadman.

I'm only going to say two words here, "Cerebral Assassin."

And I'm going to tell you only three words King Of Kings.

Perhaps if you were a 10 to 15 year old it was funny, for me it was completely boring.

It was hell of a lot funnier than seeing some male ass and laugh which so called adults found funny.The last the I laughed for seeing an ass was when I was 6.So Cena's jokes are always better than that we saw in Attitude era from Billy Gunn,Godfather...

Math was my biggest subject. I meant that they talked about hobbits and Seth Green more than they promoted their match at NoC.

How the match was all about Cena/HHH and Legacy.Green was just put into for just some fun.

Have to learn to be safe in the ring.

Some of the backyarders do 5x more risky things than WWE roster does and believe me they're used to it.So there is nothing different between a backyarder and trained professional.

Thanks....

You're welcome.

I did and she didn't approve.

Sorry for you.

Who are these people you keep talking about? I was very bored with the Rock, for a long damn time.

It was only you I've never remembered bored faces during Rock's promos if you know show me one.

Even though Austin swore alot, at least he said something different all the time.

Different?I'm curious what he said different since he became Stone Cold.What ?,That's the bottomline.....because Stone Cold...,I'm gonna ...... your ass etc.It was all about that.

I am going to watch that match again and actually time it and then subtract how much of the match that used actual wrestling moves from the match total time and tell the percentage, guarantee that it is less than 70%.

It was not near a technical match and even trying to prove it bullshit.

The crowd was just excited. To think about it though, that match wasn't so special. Except, of course, you had the best person ever in wrestling history at hyping and contronling the crowd in it.

I think that match was very huge for that time.It's the first ever I know a champion vs champion an icon vs an icon match.The match had a great story also passing the torch to Warrior and crowd ate it up very well.If that match was technical it would give nothing more or less to match.

Cena isn't anywhere near Hogan's level of captivating an audience and I don't think that he ever will be.

I never said he is but he is the best at doing it right now.

Yea, double standard. You said that it isn't in Cena's character to technical wrestle, well it isn't in Swagger's character to power wrestle, whether you think so or not. Moves compliment character, remember?

No you misunderstood me.I just said Swagger does not have to wrestle technical style he can be a very good powerhouse too.Same goes for Cena he doesn't have to wrestle technical.

I know I'm a in the minority, thanks for the heads up.

You're welcome.

We don't see the same moves from Regal every signle match though.

WTF in every fucking Regal match it is all various suplexes some unnecessary submission like sleeper hold and some stiff punches some me something different from him.

Bret Hart wrestled like this and he was anything short of boring.

He was not.I have never said technical wrestling was boring if you find a way to make yourself cared in some way and also Hart's storytelling and in ring pshycology was phenemonal.

Was Angle boring?

No because he makes crowd excited with his flashy moves.


You better be.

Heyman got Lesnar over and IDC how long it took HHH, who is the bigger wrestling name?

Bullshit.If what made him over was a manager he would lost his overness after Heyman betrayed him.

I checked it out and Lesnar was the biggest in '03, however HHH was the biggest in '04, according to the site you gave me.

Again you proved my point.He lost his title NWO 04 and left WWE in WM.So when Lesnar left SD WWE lost it's biggest draw.

It doesn't matter. If Lesnar could draw so much, why did they keep him on SD. They moved Cena when he got big, why not move Lesnar?

Simple.There has to be balance.It's not a guarantee Cena will always be on RAW.Even right now WWE's some of top superstars like Edge,Jericho,Undertaker,Hardy,Mysterio are on SD.Does that make them B rated wrestlers?

Yes, you did help me prove my point.

Actually you did.

Cena is so good at putting people over,

Yep.

look at what he did for Christian in '05.

What Vince told him to do.

Oh, that's right, Christian didn't go anywhere and ended up having to leave the company.

And regretted for what he did and returned the same company he left.

Bourne didn't dominate that match, by no means. He hit his few high flying moves, but Orton was in control.

Bourne had the upper hand until the end.

I don't see how it makes him a better wrestler.

Because years ago I don't know when an idot has created an idea that says being a good wrestler means being technical but technical wrestling is just a style of wrestling.

Maybe I'm just being specific.

Probably.

I will give you it makes him the better entertainer, but I like going for the literal definition of the word wrestler, and that is something Cena is not. Yes I know that you are going to say that half the roster isn't either, but more guys on the roster show more wrestling skill than Cena does.

Professional Wrestling=Sports entartainment,Professional Wrestler=Entertainer.So that's what Cena is supposed to do and Cena does it better than everyone also.

Maybe it is just a matter of what a person likes. I like to see wrestling matches and Cena doesn't give me that.

Then watch something like NCAA.

IDC what you say and your points are valid, however, I'm not going to change what I like in wrestling because the biggest face of the WWE comes along and challenges it.

It's the biggest problem you have you can't see what you want in pro wrestling or at least in WWE.Because pro wrestling is not about what you like in wrestling.If you love wrestling matches that match watch amateur wrestling.It's the place you'd find what you want.

 

[HypnotizedHero2010]

did any1 else notice the crowd was booing cena when he was trading punches with HHH. now this isn;t a big deal because they r both faces and the crowd has to pick one to get behind. but when orton and cena were trading punches orton was cheered and cena was booed. does this mean that the rest of the "wwe universe" is getting sick of cena as a face just like the majority of people on this site. i know there are alot of people out there that would love to see a cena heel turn. could this be the begining of what we have been dreaming of or is it just a typical cena booing session.

 

[Lil Wes]

It's Philadelphia, which is the capital of smark country. This is nothing new to what he's been getting for years now. John Cena isn't turning heel as long as he's the top draw in the company. Please get over it people.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

Yeah it's not big deal, for some reason those in Philly seem to go the opposite of everyone else, Heels usually get cheered and faces booed, it's like Lil Wes, it's smark country. There a few places like that, like HBK in Canada... man they boo the shit out of him there. Just one of those things, but no heel turn yet.

 

[Paradox]

I go away for a bit and you go off the deep end takerfan. I'm not going to touch a lot of what you've said because we've been over this to many times. Though there are couple of things that you said that caught my eye.

Who consider's the Rock one of the best in history? You do? Your opinion is so highly respected that if you do, then it must be so. I can't recall anyone in the business saying this much. Yea, he had some catch phrases and he sold some shit, but is he a legend of wrestling? Hell no and far from it.

Wrong! Dude, really I've come to respect you as a solid poster, some what miss guided. lol, but a solid poster none the less. How can you say the rock isn't a Legend in the business. He help pioneer wwf through attitude era with Austin and McMahon. If you don't think that your crazy.

Look he had classic matches through his career. Here is a few, his matches with Foley, i quit match or last man standing. His matches with Austin especially WM 17 and 19 wasn't to bad either. His matches with Angle were damn good. You want a great match look at the triple threat match between Angle, Taker, and The Rock. Which in my opinion is the best triple threat match ever. Rock worked his ass off in that match.

Name one guy that was better than The Rock on the mic? One... There isn't one because there was nobody, and I mean nobody in The Rock's league on the mic. He was the best in business on the mic. It's true, oh it's damn true. (like that... two catch phrases...)

I love Foley to death but he is also the biggest spot wrestler of all time. If he hadn't have taken that dive off the cage, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Thus why the man is known as the hardcore legend. He was willing to do anything in the ring, where many others weren't. That's why we remember him. Each legend has one moment or several that we remember them by. Foley's are being dropped from the cell, on three different occasions.

Who are these people you keep talking about? I was very bored with the Rock, for a long damn time. Even though Austin swore alot, at least he said something different all the time.

Me... how the hell can you be bored with The Rock. Yeah, he had his catch phrases, but so did Austin, so does everyone. You really have to be joking right?

Cena is so good at putting people over, look at what he did for Christian in '05. Oh, that's right, Christian didn't go anywhere and ended up having to leave the company.

really.... he didn't have to leave the company.... it was his choice. Gah....

Bourne didn't dominate that match, by no means. He hit his few high flying moves, but Orton was in control.

Wait, Cena did the same thing...

Maybe it is just a matter of what a person likes. I like to see wrestling matches and Cena doesn't give me that. IDC what you say and your points are valid, however, I'm not going to change what I like in wrestling because the biggest face of the WWE comes along and challenges it.

You shouldn't.... I agree with you on something. Though I don't think your right about Cena. You shouldn't change about what you want to see.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I go away for a bit and you go off the deep end takerfan. I'm not going to touch a lot of what you've said because we've been over this to many times. Though there are couple of things that you said that caught my eye.

Finally, The Great Paradox has come back(wait for it, wait for it) to the Official John Cena Thread. Let's do this.

Wrong! Dude, really I've come to respect you as a solid poster, some what miss guided. lol, but a solid poster none the less. How can you say the rock isn't a Legend in the business. He help pioneer wwf through attitude era with Austin and McMahon. If you don't think that your crazy.

Look he had classic matches through his career. Here is a few, his matches with Foley, i quit match or last man standing. His matches with Austin especially WM 17 and 19 wasn't to bad either. His matches with Angle were damn good. You want a great match look at the triple threat match between Angle, Taker, and The Rock. Which in my opinion is the best triple threat match ever. Rock worked his ass off in that match.

Name one guy that was better than The Rock on the mic? One... There isn't one because there was nobody, and I mean nobody in The Rock's league on the mic. He was the best in business on the mic. It's true, oh it's damn true. (like that... two catch phrases...)

You know Great Paradox, you run your mouth and you run it on how Undertaker's#1fan is wrong about Cena and blah blah blah. That's about what the Rock would say everytime out. Maybe I did go a little far on what I said about the Rock, but it was mainly used to bring you out of hiding and it worked. I'm glad I did it.

Thus why the man is known as the hardcore legend. He was willing to do anything in the ring, where many others weren't. That's why we remember him. Each legend has one moment or several that we remember them by. Foley's are being dropped from the cell, on three different occasions.

I'm just saying, we remember him for spots specifically, while we can remember others for several matches or great moments in wrestling history. I love Foley, but my god if he isn't the most overrated wrestler in history(IMO).

Me... how the hell can you be bored with The Rock. Yeah, he had his catch phrases, but so did Austin, so does everyone. You really have to be joking right?

Not joking, actually very serious. I got tired of the Rock there for awhile, especially around '01 or '02, but when he came back as a heel in '03 and had those great segments with Hurricane, now that is what I'm talking about.

really.... he didn't have to leave the company.... it was his choice. Gah....

But he left because he wasn't going anywhere, despite the almighty powers of Cena.

Wait, Cena did the same thing...

What are we talking about again? I don't remember Cena vs Bourne.

You shouldn't.... I agree with you on something. Though I don't think your right about Cena. You shouldn't change about what you want to see.

I won't change what I like in wrestling. John Cena might do it for a newer generation, but I grew up when wrestling was the shit and all we talked about in school was wrestling. We just enjoyed it, now look at me, I'm a critic. Man wrestling has gone to hell.

 

[SavageTaker]

Somehow this thread got derailed into talking about The Rock even though this is the Official John Cena thread. So I'm going to derail it back to where it needs to be right after I respond to this post:

I won't change what I like in wrestling. John Cena might do it for a newer generation, but I grew up when wrestling was the shit and all we talked about in school was wrestling. We just enjoyed it, now look at me, I'm a critic.

If by you growing up when pro-wrestling was the shit you mean the Attitude Era, then guess what? I grew up watching wrestling that Era and I find today's era of wrestling to be way better. Back then it was all about the drama and not enough about all of the other aspect of wrestling. Today, there's a good mixture of every aspect of wrestling. And you enjoyed it because of the drama and shock value, not because the wrestling was good. And the Attitude Era wasn't the shit, as a matter of fact is far away from being the shit. Do you know how much harm it caused to wrestling? Anyways. don't answer that because this is a thread about John Cena not the Attitude Era.

Man wrestling has gone to hell.

Then stop watching. It's a very simple thing to do. Even a ******ed chipmunk would know what to do if they didn't like something anymore. If you think it has gone to hell then why do you continue watching it if it obviously doesn't satisfy you anymore?

Anyways, I have to say that I am so damn sick and tired of people saying John Cena only has 4 moves. It really does make me sick. No real and true wrestling fan sits in front of their TV’s every Monday night during a John Cena match and count how many moves he is doing. If you actually do that then you aren’t a real wrestling fan. The number of moves a wrestler does shouldn’t decide whether they are a good or bad wrestler. Look at Dean Malenko for example; what was one of his nicknames? "The Man of 1,000 Holds". I know he probably didn’t know a 1,000 holds but he did know a lot of them and is considered one of the best technical wrestlers. So let’s look at it this way, he knows a lot of moves yet he is still a very boring wrestler. Now let’s look at John Cena. He has 4 moves according to you smarks, yet he is still way more entertaining than Dean could ever dream of being. The difference between them is that Dean knows a lot of moves and John Cena doesn’t according to you smarks. Do you understand what I’m trying to say? In case you don’t I’ll tell you, John Cena may know less moves than Dean yet he is still way more entertaining than him, proving that just because you have a bunch of moves in your arsenal it doesn’t automatically make you a good wrestler. I’ll say it one more time, if you are worried so much about how many moves a wrestler does and sit in front of TV counting them then you aren’t a real fan of pro-wrestling.