The *Official* John Cena Thread

[Paradox]

Ah were to start with you Takerfan... where to start....

Sirs, what I mean about his mic work is that it is corny. He goes for the cheapest pops all the time(I know Foley did it, but that was a trademark of Foley). He all ways says something boring or corny like, "I'm going to whip your ass all over, wherever he happens to be at the time." I mean, it is pathetic.

Oh, and I guess that Rock never did that. Need I remind you he was the best on the mic.

Look at 'Taker, he knows how to remain relevant with the fans. Change costume, moves, mind set, upgrade entrances, keeps him fresh. Cena has changed his finisher to the AA (stupid ass name, F U was actually cool) and he changed his sign to, what looks like the NBA sign when anyone hits a three pointer.

You know what? You have a valid point. You know what now that you say, taker's boring, triple h is boring, Hbk is boring, any major person in the wwe is boring. Why? because they still have the same finisher they always have, and they only get a new t-shirt.

And besides his matches being stale or predictable, the match quality isn't any better.

Really? Did you watch any of his matches from last year? Guess not, because his match quality last year was amazing.

Sure, you give me examples of matches with HBK, Swagger, so on and so on, but these guys are great in ring performers and, honestly, a match with them is going to be great because they are good.

To have a great match you need to good in ring performers. I don't care how good you are, you can't have a great match by yourself. Not going to happen.

Now, if Cena is so good, why can't he carry matches like that and make his matches with people who are worse than him look really good? HBK does it, Angle could do it, Austin did it, why can't Cena?

Did you see his match with Miz on raw a couple weeks ago? He made him look amazing. Did you see his matches with Show? He actually made Show look like a credible monster. What more do you want him to do? He's made guys look good.

Yea. I see that those people have been brain washed by the machine that is the WWE.

Yes, all of us who criticize wwe all the time on these forums have been brainwashed....

I have actually sit down and rethought things about Cena and to be honest I don't see any difference between him now and then. I dislike him even more now actually. That's probably because he hasn't changed.

Why should he? He's bringing in more money than ever. And he has less haters out there then he has in a long time. Why? Because the majority of wrestling fans find him entertaining, and his matches entertaining.

Pissing off fans like you is what I live for.

Apparently...

You are really going to sit there and tell me that Cena brought Khali up to a higher level of performance?

Did you see any match that Khali was in before? He was boring, hell Taker couldn't make him look entertaining. Cena did, the two matches that he had with him were the best matches Khali has ever had.

You are going to say that Cena brings talent up to his level? You must be talking about level of stardom or something else because, as far as I am concerned, Cena doesn't have a level of performance that is any better than your average mid carder in the WWE.

BULLSHIT!!! Just because the guy doesn't use as many moves as you would like doesn't mean that he bad. The guy has had classic matches. Look at his matches HBK, look at his tlc match with Edge, NoC last year with Triple h. Yeah, the guy just can't preform on the level of mainevent talent is bullshit.

He brought Umaga and Swagger to his level? I'm sorry, but in ring wise, these guys were already on his level, maybe even surpassed his level.

What the hell? Are you trying to tell me that Jack Swagger, a man that has been in wwe less then a year is better than John Cena. You're wrong. Umaga? lol dude, he made Umaga look golden, Umaga had been beating on mid-card talent until Cena. Come on.

Then, I saved this for last, you say that Shawn Michaels best matches since 03 were with Cena and that Cena deserves the credit for that? Man, come on! I will agree that Michaels matches with Cena were outstanding and great, but it was damn sure not because Cena brought him to his level.

Two great in ring workers, equals great matches. I won't put Cena Michaels on the level of HBK Angle, but it was still a great match.

HBK vs Mcmahon WM 22, that match was even good, cause of HBK.

That match wasn't even close to anything he did with Cena.

Here recently, HBK vs 'Taker in either their Royal Rumble performance in '07 or their WM 25 match. Come on, Cena isn't anywhere near the performer of Michaels.

That was a great match I will give you that. Is Cena on the level of Michaels? No, who is? There isn't anyone remotely near Michaels in the ring. Cena though is very good in the ring. He has put on good matches for the better part of 2 years.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Ah were to start with you Takerfan... where to start....

If you started by saying Cena sucks, I would love you!

Oh, and I guess that Rock never did that. Need I remind you he was the best on the mic.

The Rock did it every once in a while during his hey day. He really started at the end with the whole, "We are live in, wherever they were at the time." You're right, Rock was the best on the mic.

You know what? You have a valid point.

Thanks, I appreciate your support.

You know what now that you say, taker's boring, triple h is boring, Hbk is boring, any major person in the wwe is boring. Why? because they still have the same finisher they always have, and they only get a new t-shirt.

You can't say that 'Taker hasn't changed. He has several new finishers in his catalogue. This is just a ridiculous comment. I never mentioned changing his finisher, but he could stand to be less corny with his signs and such

Really? Did you watch any of his matches from last year? Guess not, because his match quality last year was amazing.

I watch every Raw, ECW, SD and PPV. I seen all of his matches last year. Not impressed. I guess you would call the triple threat at WM 24 a great match wouldn't you?

To have a great match you need to good in ring performers. I don't care how good you are, you can't have a great match by yourself. Not going to happen.

Agreed. Another good in ring performer would help, however, people like HBK, Bret Hart, Angle, and so on, I bet you that they could take the newest person on the roster and make that person look like a legacy in the ring for 30 min.

Did you see his match with Miz on raw a couple weeks ago? He made him look amazing.

I guess then all you need to do to make anyone look amazing is let them beat the shit out of you for 10 min and then beat them, hmmmm I guess that would work.

Did you see his matches with Show? He actually made Show look like a credible monster. What more do you want him to do? He's made guys look good.

IDC what you say, Show looks like a credible monster against 90% of all his oppenents. Did you see him tonight? Tell me he wasn't credible.

Yes, all of us who criticize wwe all the time on these forums have been brainwashed....

You have, watch out!

Why should he? He's bringing in more money than ever. And he has less haters out there then he has in a long time. Why? Because the majority of wrestling fans find him entertaining, and his matches entertaining.

IDK why he should. I mean all of you who bash HHH give me this reason all the time. How is it credible with HHH and not Cena?

Apparently...

I do!

Did you see any match that Khali was in before? He was boring, hell Taker couldn't make him look entertaining. Cena did, the two matches that he had with him were the best matches Khali has ever had.

In my opinion(which obviously doesn't mean much) Khali vs Cena was just as stale and boring as any Khali match. Cena didn't help.

BULLSHIT!!! Just because the guy doesn't use as many moves as you would like doesn't mean that he bad. The guy has had classic matches. Look at his matches HBK, look at his tlc match with Edge, NoC last year with Triple h. Yeah, the guy just can't preform on the level of mainevent talent is bullshit.

His matches with HBK were great, not classic, but great. You're right, he doesn't use as many wrestling moves as I like for him to, but if I am the paying customer I have the right to be upset if I don't like what I see.

What the hell? Are you trying to tell me that Jack Swagger, a man that has been in wwe less then a year is better than John Cena. You're wrong. Umaga? lol dude, he made Umaga look golden, Umaga had been beating on mid-card talent until Cena. Come on.

Physical talent wise, yes, they are both on Cena's level. Cena might be better at controling the crowd, which is a part of it too, but they are every bit as talented as Cena.

Two great in ring workers, equals great matches. I won't put Cena Michaels on the level of HBK Angle, but it was still a great match.

Agreed it was a great match, but not on the level of Angle/HBK.

That match wasn't even close to anything he did with Cena.

Agreed, but it was better than everyone expected. Testimate to HBK.

That was a great match I will give you that. Is Cena on the level of Michaels? No, who is? There isn't anyone remotely near Michaels in the ring. Cena though is very good in the ring. He has put on good matches for the better part of 2 years.

Agreed, no one is on HBK's level right now in the company, but Cena has not put on good matches in the last 2 years except his work with HBK. I don't get what is so wrong about a guy who doesn't like Cena's in ring work. You ask me why and then I tell you and then you still say that I am full of shit, even though I have actually provided valid points to support my view. I don't understand Cena fans.

 

[Paradox]

If you started by saying Cena sucks, I would love you!

haha, not going to happen, because he doesn't...

The Rock did it every once in a while during his hey day. He really started at the end with the whole, "We are live in, wherever they were at the time." You're right, Rock was the best on the mic.

Everyonce and awhile? he opened up every promo with the same line. Finally the Rock has come back to... blank... everyone, not every once and awhile.

You can't say that 'Taker hasn't changed. He has several new finishers in his catalogue. This is just a ridiculous comment. I never mentioned changing his finisher, but he could stand to be less corny with his signs and such

Lol, you didn't even get the point.... You were talking about the only thing that Cena has changed was the name of his finisher and his logo. If that's the case then they are all the same. Taker has had the tombstone piledriver, which is his main finisher for over 15 years...

I watch every Raw, ECW, SD and PPV. I seen all of his matches last year. Not impressed. I guess you would call the triple threat at WM 24 a great match wouldn't you?

No I wouldn't, but how about his match at NoC with Triple h, or his match with Batista at SummerSlam, or actually making JBL less boring in the ring.

Agreed. Another good in ring performer would help, however, people like HBK, Bret Hart, Angle, and so on, I bet you that they could take the newest person on the roster and make that person look like a legacy in the ring for 30 min.

Nope, because not every man on the roster can go for 30 minutes. sorry.

I guess then all you need to do to make anyone look amazing is let them beat the shit out of you for 10 min and then beat them, hmmmm I guess that would work.

It's about making him look like he actually can stand a chance, by Cena letting miz work him over for 10 minutes it made him look good. Like he was actually on Cena's level.

IDC what you say, Show looks like a credible monster against 90% of all his oppenents. Did you see him tonight? Tell me he wasn't credible.

Yeah, I'll give you that, but what the hell was showing doing before Cena came to save him? I don't even remember.

You have, watch out!

We criticize wwe more than we give them credit...

In my opinion(which obviously doesn't mean much) Khali vs Cena was just as stale and boring as any Khali match. Cena didn't help.

It was much more entertaining than any match I've seen him in....

His matches with HBK were great, not classic, but great. You're right, he doesn't use as many wrestling moves as I like for him to, but if I am the paying customer I have the right to be upset if I don't like what I see.

Sure...

Physical talent wise, yes, they are both on Cena's level. Cena might be better at controling the crowd, which is a part of it too, but they are every bit as talented as Cena.

EXACTLY... They aren't, you can have all the gifts in the world physically, but go no where. It takes more than that to be a pro wrestler. You have to be able to sell, be good on the mic, and put on entertaining matches. Case an point Chris Benoit, he was one of the best wrestlers to ever live, but he couldn't sell. He wasn't great on the mic. Where as Cena isn't anywhere near Benoit in skills, but he can sell, he is amazing on the mic, and he can put on entertaining matches. You have to have the whole package. Which Cena does.

Agreed, no one is on HBK's level right now in the company, but Cena has not put on good matches in the last 2 years except his work with HBK.

You are wrong there. His matches with Orton in 07, his return at the royal rumble, his work with Triple h at NoC, his work with Batista, his matches with Jericho, his matches with Edge, and Show, yeah he hasn't been putting on good matches.

I don't get what is so wrong about a guy who doesn't like Cena's in ring work. You ask me why and then I tell you and then you still say that I am full of shit, even though I have actually provided valid points to support my view. I don't understand Cena fans.

If you don't like the guy fine. I called you on your valid points as has everyone else. It's forum we are going to debate you on what you say. We all have valid points. Don't get upset.

 

[SSJPhenom]

haha, not going to happen, because he doesn't...

Yes he does. C'mon, it just rolls right off the tongue.

Everyonce and awhile? he opened up every promo with the same line. Finally the Rock has come back to... blank... everyone, not every once and awhile.

You got me. I have nothing to say to that, you are the man.

Lol, you didn't even get the point.... You were talking about the only thing that Cena has changed was the name of his finisher and his logo. If that's the case then they are all the same. Taker has had the tombstone piledriver, which is his main finisher for over 15 years...

I wasn't exactly saying that he needed to change his finisher's name. I was stating that he changed it's name to something boring and corny to try and prove, whatever point I was making at the time(there are so many).

No I wouldn't, but how about his match at NoC with Triple h, or his match with Batista at SummerSlam, or actually making JBL less boring in the ring.

I will give you NoC with HHH, but his match with Batista, in my opinion did not live up to the hype. Also, I have always thought very highly of "The Wrestling God," as far as his ability in the ring and on the mic. I don't think that JBL is boring at all.

Nope, because not every man on the roster can go for 30 minutes. sorry.

Agreed. Not everyone can. I say that they could take someone like JTG from Cryme Tyme and make him look great for 30 min.

It's about making him look like he actually can stand a chance, by Cena letting miz work him over for 10 minutes it made him look good. Like he was actually on Cena's level.

To me, it made it look like any reality T.V. star could come to WWE and whip Cena's ass. It made me feel like I had a future with WWE.

Yeah, I'll give you that, but what the hell was showing doing before Cena came to save him? I don't even remember.

I think that he was helping Vickie on SD, but thanks for giving me that one.

We criticize wwe more than we give them credit...

That's true. You know there used to be a day where we could just enjoy wrestling, good or bad.

It was much more entertaining than any match I've seen him in....

I still say that it was boring and stale. I had no intrest in it at all. We knew Cena was going to win. However, the fact that this match was boring and stale wasn't Cena's fault, Khali just can't wrestle.

Sure...

Thanks...

EXACTLY... They aren't, you can have all the gifts in the world physically, but go no where. It takes more than that to be a pro wrestler. You have to be able to sell, be good on the mic, and put on entertaining matches. Case an point Chris Benoit, he was one of the best wrestlers to ever live, but he couldn't sell. He wasn't great on the mic. Where as Cena isn't anywhere near Benoit in skills, but he can sell, he is amazing on the mic, and he can put on entertaining matches. You have to have the whole package. Which Cena does.

It is a combination of all those things, but Cena isn't the total package because he doesn't have the wrestling chops.

You are wrong there. His matches with Orton in 07, his return at the royal rumble, his work with Triple h at NoC, his work with Batista, his matches with Jericho, his matches with Edge, and Show, yeah he hasn't been putting on good matches.

I will say that his match with Orton at Summerslam was a good one and I will give you some of his matches with Jericho. I've already given you his match with HHH, but the rest were mediocre at best.

If you don't like the guy fine. I called you on your valid points as has everyone else. It's forum we are going to debate you on what you say. We all have valid points. Don't get upset.

(Sobs.....) But you all are just so mean. Yes we do all have valid points and it is a forum and I expect nothing less than the best debate.

BTW.........CENA SUCKS!!!!

 

[IsuckIC25rules]

in my opinion he sucks he only knows about 7 moves and never lets anyone go over him unlike austin who always put guys over when he was popular so thats my reasons why i do not like cena

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

in my opinion he sucks he only knows about 7 moves and never lets anyone go over him unlike austin who always put guys over when he was popular so thats my reasons why i do not like cena

I see you're another of those Cena haters whose basis of why he sucks is the number of moves he knows. He may now seven moves but he does those moves better than anybody in the WWE. And tell me who did Austin put over because I can't name one single person.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I see you're another of those Cena haters whose basis of why he sucks is the number of moves he knows. He may now seven moves but he does those moves better than anybody in the WWE. And tell me who did Austin put over because I can't name one single person.

Yes, we don't like Cena because he can't wrestle and it is a damn good reason not to like him. We have already been down this road Little Jerry, the circle continues.

I'm not going to give you a big long list of people that Austin put over because everyone on the list is debatable, however I will give you one, and that's Kurt Angle. His fueds with Austin and when they eventually teamed up with Vince and for the invasion, I think, is what made him huge.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Austin didn't put the Rock or HHH over. Foley did more to help the Rock and HHH than Austin did. I believe HHH put over Chris Benoit when he lost to him at Wrestlemania 20. Kane has been shit for a long time and even Austin couldn't help him.

Cena has put over Umaga, Khali, and Swagger. There are names for you.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Yes, we don't like Cena because he can't wrestle and it is a damn good reason not to like him. We have already been down this road Little Jerry, the circle continues.

I'm not going to give you a big long list of people that Austin put over because everyone on the list is debatable, however I will give you one, and that's Kurt Angle. His fueds with Austin and when they eventually teamed up with Vince and for the invasion, I think, is what made him huge.

You still haven't proven to me why he can't wrestle. If Cena can't wrestle then you're saying HHH, HBK, and Taker can't wrestle because they do the same stuff over and over again. You name one person that Austin has put over and that's highly debatable and I gave you three with Cena. Three is more than one.

 

[SSJPhenom]

You still haven't proven to me why he can't wrestle. If Cena can't wrestle then you're saying HHH, HBK, and Taker can't wrestle because they do the same stuff over and over again. You name one person that Austin has put over and that's highly debatable and I gave you three with Cena. Three is more than one.

I have told you several times why I think Cena sucks. Yes, they do the moves over and over, however they always add in some new moves and they go about there signatures a little different. Take last night for example, when is the last time that you have seen HHH do a delayed verticle suplex? All Cena does is signatures.

I'm still going to say Austin put Angle over. Austin did make Kane relevant with other stars besides 'Taker when he lost him in the First Blood Match. It made Kane seem like he could fued with everyone isntead of just 'Taker. They still have one of the greatest matches of Raw when they had that rematch. BTW, Austin did help the Rock when they fueded for the IC title. When The Rock first became The Rock. If you remember, it was the first time the whole bridge/belt thing was done.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I have told you several times why I think Cena sucks. Yes, they do the moves over and over, however they always add in some new moves and they go about there signatures a little different. Take last night for example, when is the last time that you have seen HHH do a delayed verticle suplex? All Cena does is signatures.

I'm still going to say Austin put Angle over. Austin did make Kane relevant with other stars besides 'Taker when he lost him in the First Blood Match. It made Kane seem like he could fued with everyone isntead of just 'Taker. They still have one of the greatest matches of Raw when they had that rematch. BTW, Austin did help the Rock when they fueded for the IC title. When The Rock first became The Rock. If you remember, it was the first time the whole bridge/belt thing was done.

If the crowd is still always interested in his performance and is cheered by a majority, why does he need to do anything different. Has HBK done anything different than 2002? No he hasn't and the same goes for HHH. If the best win a majority of their matches with the same moves they do, why do they need different moves?

Kane did win the title from Austin because I believe it was the Undertaker that hit him with a steel chair and he lost the title the next night.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If the crowd is still always interested in his performance and is cheered by a majority, why does he need to do anything different. Has HBK done anything different than 2002? No he hasn't and the same goes for HHH. If the best win a majority of their matches with the same moves they do, why do they need different moves?

I don't know why he would need to do anything different, maybe because some of us wouldn't be bored to death while watching one of his matches.
Also, I hate when someone questions the merits of HBK. HBK has a proven track record for being, probably, the best performer in the WWE today. Cena is not, in no way, shape, or form, comparable to Shawn Michaels.

Kane did win the title from Austin because I believe it was the Undertaker that hit him with a steel chair and he lost the title the next night.

Yes 'Taker did interfer in that match, but that wasn't the issue. Austin was still Kane's first fued outside of 'Taker, so It made him less of 'Taker's little brother and more a top star in the WWE.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I don't know why he would need to do anything different, maybe because some of us wouldn't be bored to death while watching one of his matches.
Also, I hate when someone questions the merits of HBK. HBK has a proven track record for being, probably, the best performer in the WWE today. Cena is not, in no way, shape, or form, comparable to Shawn Michaels.



Yes 'Taker did interfer in that match, but that wasn't the issue. Austin was still Kane's first fued outside of 'Taker, so It made him less of 'Taker's little brother and more a top star in the WWE.

Well if he gets mostly cheers instead of boos, it looks like most of the fans aren't bored to death. HBK bores me to death more than Cena but that's a discussion for another time. Did I question the merits of HBK? Does he not basically do the same thing over and over now? Right now, Cena is a better performer than Shawn Michaels?

Kane couldn't capitalize on that opportunity he was given and will always be known as Undertaker's little brother and that's that on that subject because I do want to go off-topic.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Well if he gets mostly cheers instead of boos, it looks like most of the fans aren't bored to death. HBK bores me to death more than Cena but that's a discussion for another time. Did I question the merits of HBK? Does he not basically do the same thing over and over now? Right now, Cena is a better performer than Shawn Michaels?

You have done a great job at debating your point on Cena, but please, don't ruin your creditability by saying something as ridiculous as Cena is a better performer than HBK. I don't believe that and I don't think that you believe that. Cena is at the top of the company because WWE wants him there. I'm not going to deny that, yea he has some talent, but if you were to make a list of in ring performers right now, Michaels would top that list. Cena is nowhere near Michaels as far as in ring performance wise and he will never be.

Kane couldn't capitalize on that opportunity he was given and will always be known as Undertaker's little brother and that's that on that subject because I do want to go off-topic.

We can off topic, just as soon as you say that I am right about the matter.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You have done a great job at debating your point on Cena, but please, don't ruin your creditability by saying something as ridiculous as Cena is a better performer than HBK. I don't believe that and I don't think that you believe that. Cena is at the top of the company because WWE wants him there. I'm not going to deny that, yea he has some talent, but if you were to make a list of in ring performers right now, Michaels would top that list. Cena is nowhere near Michaels as far as in ring performance wise and he will never be.



We can off topic, just as soon as you say that I am right about the matter.

If you read my post correctly, I said that he was a better performer than HBK right now and has been over the past three or four years. HBK isn't in my top three performers right now as those honors go to Cena, Jericho, and Mysterio. Cena has had more great matches than HBK over the past five years and that is a fact.

 

[The Todd]

There is too much made on in ring quality in this discussion. Dean Malenko was just about the greatest inring technician of all time. He was also shit as a professional wrestler. He couldn't draw and didn't have great mic skills. They are far, far, far more important than in ring ability. Cena is not terrible in the ring. The moves he does fits his character and he sells well most of the match. His only flaw is selling injuries after he makes him comeback, or "Hulks up". I'll admit that is a flaw but the rest of his repotoire is brilliant.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If you read my post correctly, I said that he was a better performer than HBK right now and has been over the past three or four years. HBK isn't in my top three performers right now as those honors go to Cena, Jericho, and Mysterio. Cena has had more great matches than HBK over the past five years and that is a fact.

No, that is not a fact! That is a matter of opinion. So we are going to go by last five years huh? Okay. That's 2004 to now, right? HBK vs HHH Last Man Standing R R '04, HBK vs Benoit vs HHH WM 20, HBK vs Shelton Benjamin on Raw, HBK vs Angle WM 21, or any of the matches that they had for that matter. I'm not going to count any of his matches with Cena because you would try to make that a testimate to Cena, when we both know that HBK carried the offense. HBK vs 'Taker at the end of R R '07, HBK vs Flair WM 24, HBK vs Taker WM 25, and those are just to name a few. I could get very specific but I don't have to prove HBK's record. He is the best today and none of Cena's matches with Orton, HHH, Khali, Show, Edge, Jericho, etc etc, come close to the matches that he had with HBK and that is a testimate to HBK!

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

No, that is not a fact! That is a matter of opinion. So we are going to go by last five years huh? Okay. That's 2004 to now, right? HBK vs HHH Last Man Standing R R '04, HBK vs Benoit vs HHH WM 20, HBK vs Shelton Benjamin on Raw, HBK vs Angle WM 21, or any of the matches that they had for that matter. I'm not going to count any of his matches with Cena because you would try to make that a testimate to Cena, when we both know that HBK carried the offense. HBK vs 'Taker at the end of R R '07, HBK vs Flair WM 24, HBK vs Taker WM 25, and those are just to name a few. I could get very specific but I don't have to prove HBK's record. He is the best today and none of Cena's matches with Orton, HHH, Khali, Show, Edge, Jericho, etc etc, come close to the matches that he had with HBK and that is a testimate to HBK!

I could laugh at you saying that HBK carried Cena but I'm going to be respectful and not laugh. Cena has had more great matches than HBK since 2004 and that's a fact. Cena gave Umaga and Khali the match of their lives and he had a great one with Bobby Lashley, Edge, and decent ones with Big Show and HHH. HBK is far from the best today as his matches with Flair and Undertaker were extremely overrated and HBK did not carry Cena in anything.

 

[SSJPhenom]

There is too much made on in ring quality in this discussion. Dean Malenko was just about the greatest inring technician of all time. He was also shit as a professional wrestler. He couldn't draw and didn't have great mic skills. They are far, far, far more important than in ring ability. Cena is not terrible in the ring. The moves he does fits his character and he sells well most of the match. His only flaw is selling injuries after he makes him comeback, or "Hulks up". I'll admit that is a flaw but the rest of his repotoire is brilliant.

You are right Dean Malenko was outstanding. I loved "The Ice Man," but he couldn't draw, you are right. There is more to wrestling than the performance in the ring, however, I have discussed in great detail all that I think is wrong with Cena, including his character and mic skills. I just happen to be on the circle of the Cena thread and am now back to in ring performance.

I could laugh at you saying that HBK carried Cena but I'm going to be respectful and not laugh. Cena has had more great matches than HBK since 2004 and that's a fact. Cena gave Umaga and Khali the match of their lives and he had a great one with Bobby Lashley, Edge, and decent ones with Big Show and HHH. HBK is far from the best today as his matches with Flair and Undertaker were extremely overrated and HBK did not carry Cena in anything.

How is it a fact? Unless you can show me some statistics or proof then it is your opinion. Also, I am tired of people saying that Cena's matches with Khali were good. They might have been the best that Khali could do, but they were still crap compared to anything that HBK has done. But the fact that Cena's matches with Khali sucked isn't Cena's fault, I feel sorry for anyone who has to wrestle Khali, cause he just can't wrestle.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You are right Dean Malenko was outstanding. I loved "The Ice Man," but he couldn't draw, you are right. There is more to wrestling than the performance in the ring, however, I have discussed in great detail all that I think is wrong with Cena, including his character and mic skills. I just happen to be on the circle of the Cena thread and am now back to in ring performance.



How is it a fact? Unless you can show me some statistics or proof then it is your opinion. Also, I am tired of people saying that Cena's matches with Khali were good. They might have been the best that Khali could do, but they were still crap compared to anything that HBK has done. But the fact that Cena's matches with Khali sucked isn't Cena's fault, I feel sorry for anyone who has to wrestle Khali, cause he just can't wrestle.

Khali does exactly what he is supposed to do for a 7 foot tall, 420 lb person is supposed to do. Do you want him to do top ropes moves or something?
And those matches with Khali were good and I don't know if you watched them or not. HBK didn't fare so well against Khali. HBK hasn't had as many great matches as people say he has. He can have the occasional good match here and there but not all the time. Cena consistently gives his best out there, something HBK can't do anymore and is one if not the best performer in the WWE right now.

 

[Coco]

I define "classic" as a match that will stand the test of time.

Okay.

A match, that when asked about years after it happened, you can remember almost every detail about the match and what you were doing when you watched it.

If you can remember every detail, odds are you were watching it when you watched it. And then immediately after it was over, you watched it again. Every move? Jesus... That's one tall order. But hey, your definition we're using here.

Matches like HBK vs Hart WM 12, Austin vs Hart WM 13, Hulk vs Andre WM 3, Hulk vs Warrior, etc etc.

Big motherfucking contradiction here. And your taste in wrestling sucks for the most part, but I'll take this one at a time.

HBK vs Hart WM 12

A match that could have compelled if there weren't quite as many fucking rest holds. I'm not one who minds the submission style, but they took a twenty minute match and turned it into an hour for no reason other than to have a match that went on for an hour. Wanna know what I was doing during that match? Sleeping. Because it was boring. I had to be woken up towards the end of it by my father. Of course it's praised as classic because of all the holds and the length, but in actuality both Bret and Shawn have worked shorter matches that accomplished far more than this one did. Majorly overrated.

Austin vs Hart WM 13

The only good match you mention and one of the best in WWE history. Now here's the odd thing: Austin wasn't exactly Dean Malenko in beatween the ropes. So why do his five moves of doom get more of a pass than those of John Cena? Austin wasn't Mr. Athleticism, Austin was a storyteller. Same as John Cena. Wow, by your standards Cena isn't doing too bad so far..

Hulk vs Andre WM 3, Hulk vs Warrior

I'll leave this to you. I want you to tell me... and I'll make sure you don't overlook it. I'll bold it and blow up the size of the text just so you see it.

I want you to tell me what do these matches accomplish that the best matches of Cena don't. In detail, tell me what these matches do for you.

Oh, what's that? YOU REMEMBER EVERY DETAIL OF THE MATCH?!

Well that's how I feel about Cena vs. Umaga in San Antonio, The Champ on the ropes doing everything he can to keep the undefeatable Umaga down decisively and prove that his roll-up win over the Samoan Savage was more than just a fluke. I remember every blow from the champ, every crash and burn chance from the top contender, and every time that a determined title holder and his opposition, against all odds, got back to their feet (to the shock of each other and, many a time, to the shock of the crowd). If the hype machine had worked as hard to drill the idea that a blood-stained John Cena choking Umaga out with the ring ropes was the wrestling image of our generation, you'd believe that just as readily as you did when you were told how significant a bloody Steve Austin passing out in the sharpshooter was.

I remember every detail about John Cena's heated confrontation with Rob Van Dam in New York. I remember my love for Van Dam and how long I'd waited for that moment, how everything in that match was bigger than anything I'd ever seen before. The entrances and introductions set the tone for a match where Cena seemlessly assumed the heel role and had me and the live audience firmly in the palm of his hand. On a night where Rob Van Dam finally achieved his greatest accomplishment, on a night where RVD received affirmation from his fans and his peers that his journey to the title was worth it, John Cena bowed out quietly after having evoked the type of emotion from the crowd that solidifies him as one of the most important wrestlers of the decade (at the very least). Without Cena, RVD's win never would have been as hot as it was.

I remember every detail from the night The Champ wrestled Shawn Michaels on his own birthday in London, England. A cool, confident Cena started out the match doing what Shawn Michaels did at the start of their Mania encounter, playing mind games perfectly with the Heartbreak Kid. Cena went for his finishing submission hold countless times in the early stages of the match while never failing to throw his opposion a cocky wink., frustrating Michaels and throwing him off his game (just as Michaels had done to Cena in Ford Field). But as the match drew on, Cena became more and more frustrated with his inability to put HBK down on that night. Subtle as this was when it first began, by the time the final break was over Cena could be seen losing his shit and screaming at the official while abusing Shawn Michaels at the announce table. It was on this night that any question of John Cena's wrestling ability should have been answered. The fact that Cena's ability is still questioned after a match this good is an insult to professional wrestling and a damning black mark of stupidity for those on your side of the argument.

You judge a classic match by how well you remember the details afterwards? Well John Cena has given many a memorable wrestling match. In fact, this isn't even the tip of the iceberg. Cena's given many more great matches than this, all very distinct in their own way. At the end of a day, your dismissal of Cena's most significent matches is a greater sign of your piss-poor memory than my adherence to a hype machine that tells me what to believe. In reality, you're the one being told what to believe. The matches you listed as great aren't just matches you watched and suddenly thought "Wow, that sure was a dandy." You've been conditioned to think of those matches. For this you can thank your small-minded Cena-hating peers and the frequent video packages WWE puts out glorifying your "favorite" matches. You are nothing more than another talking head who has been convinced by others that Cena is bad and what you listed is good. How about some free thinking when you reply? Please and thanks.

A good wrestler goes out and just makes sure that the crowd know what the storyline is of the match and makes sure that the crowd is into it. Well let me ask you something, would the crowd be into it if the wrestlers did not wrestle or use any moves? I'll let you answer that for yourself.

Says the guy who just threw down matches involving Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan? These guys rocked limited movesets on a regular basis at the peak of their populaity, and yet you praise them for having given you some of the wrestest matches of all time... What about the moves?! You are a walking contradiction.

You should seriously sit down and think about your views on wrestling and where you acquired them before replying.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If you can remember every detail, odds are you were watching it when you watched it. And then immediately after it was over, you watched it again. Every move? Jesus... That's one tall order. But hey, your definition we're using here.

Yea, I can remember just about everything about those matches and it has been years since I seen them.

Big motherfucking contradiction here. And your taste in wrestling sucks for the most part, but I'll take this one at a time.

Big motherfucking opinion here and your taste in wrestlers, such as Cena sucks, for the most part, but hey, I'm going to take this one step at a time.

A match that could have compelled if there weren't quite as many fucking rest holds. I'm not one who minds the submission style, but they took a twenty minute match and turned it into an hour for no reason other than to have a match that went on for an hour. Wanna know what I was doing during that match? Sleeping. Because it was boring. I had to be woken up towards the end of it by my father. Of course it's praised as classic because of all the holds and the length, but in actuality both Bret and Shawn have worked shorter matches that accomplished far more than this one did. Majorly overrated.

You're right, there were alot of rest holds in the match(it was an hour), but the match itself was epic. Epic for the storytelling, psycology, and moves.

The only good match you mention and one of the best in WWE history. Now here's the odd thing: Austin wasn't exactly Dean Malenko in beatween the ropes. So why do his five moves of doom get more of a pass than those of John Cena? Austin wasn't Mr. Athleticism, Austin was a storyteller. Same as John Cena. Wow, by your standards Cena isn't doing too bad so far..

You are right, Austin wasn't exactly Dean Malenko(one of the best technical wrestlers ever), but his move set was far more defined than Cena's. Name Austin's 5 moves of doom please, in order to, leading up to the Stunner. What's that? Can't do it? Because he never had a set of signatures leading into his Stunner, it was always sudden and unexpected. If you can give me one example, I could find 5 to discredit you.

I'll leave this to you. I want you to tell me... and I'll make sure you don't overlook it. I'll bold it and blow up the size of the text just so you see it.

Thanks, I have trouble seeing.

I want you to tell me what do these matches accomplish that the best matches of Cena don't. In detail, tell me what these matches do for you.

One thing, in 20 years these matches will still be talked about, Cena vs Umaga or Cena vs Edge will not. Prove me wrong.

Oh, what's that? YOU REMEMBER EVERY DETAIL OF THE MATCH?!

Almost every detail, but yea, I do!

Well that's how I feel about Cena vs. Umaga in San Antonio, The Champ on the ropes doing everything he can to keep the undefeatable Umaga down decisively and prove that his roll-up win over the Samoan Savage was more than just a fluke. I remember every blow from the champ, every crash and burn chance from the top contender, and every time that a determined title holder and his opposition, against all odds, got back to their feet (to the shock of each other and, many a time, to the shock of the crowd). If the hype machine had worked as hard to drill the idea that a blood-stained John Cena choking Umaga out with the ring ropes was the wrestling image of our generation, you'd believe that just as readily as you did when you were told how significant a bloody Steve Austin passing out in the sharpshooter was.

I remember every detail about John Cena's heated confrontation with Rob Van Dam in New York. I remember my love for Van Dam and how long I'd waited for that moment, how everything in that match was bigger than anything I'd ever seen before. The entrances and introductions set the tone for a match where Cena seemlessly assumed the heel role and had me and the live audience firmly in the palm of his hand. On a night where Rob Van Dam finally achieved his greatest accomplishment, on a night where RVD received affirmation from his fans and his peers that his journey to the title was worth it, John Cena bowed out quietly after having evoked the type of emotion from the crowd that solidifies him as one of the most important wrestlers of the decade (at the very least). Without Cena, RVD's win never would have been as hot as it was.

Good for you.

I remember every detail from the night The Champ wrestled Shawn Michaels on his own birthday in London, England. A cool, confident Cena started out the match doing what Shawn Michaels did at the start of their Mania encounter, playing mind games perfectly with the Heartbreak Kid. Cena went for his finishing submission hold countless times in the early stages of the match while never failing to throw his opposion a cocky wink., frustrating Michaels and throwing him off his game (just as Michaels had done to Cena in Ford Field). But as the match drew on, Cena became more and more frustrated with his inability to put HBK down on that night. Subtle as this was when it first began, by the time the final break was over Cena could be seen losing his shit and screaming at the official while abusing Shawn Michaels at the announce table. It was on this night that any question of John Cena's wrestling ability should have been answered. The fact that Cena's ability is still questioned after a match this good is an insult to professional wrestling and a damning black mark of stupidity for those on your side of the argument.

This match is a testament to HBK, not Cena.

You judge a classic match by how well you remember the details afterwards? Well John Cena has given many a memorable wrestling match. In fact, this isn't even the tip of the iceberg. Cena's given many more great matches than this, all very distinct in their own way. At the end of a day, your dismissal of Cena's most significent matches is a greater sign of your piss-poor memory than my adherence to a hype machine that tells me what to believe. In reality, you're the one being told what to believe. The matches you listed as great aren't just matches you watched and suddenly thought "Wow, that sure was a dandy." You've been conditioned to think of those matches. For this you can thank your small-minded Cena-hating peers and the frequent video packages WWE puts out glorifying your "favorite" matches. You are nothing more than another talking head who has been convinced by others that Cena is bad and what you listed is good. How about some free thinking when you reply? Please and thanks.

I'm sorry if my taste in wrestling clashes with your, "Golden Boy," I will try to be free thinking when I reply. I have my own opinion and if you think that I am conditioned by WWE to think I should like those matches, then why don't I like Cena? He has the most video packages and is the most promoted in the WWE right now, So why don't I like him? Because, in my opinion, he sucks!

Says the guy who just threw down matches involving Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan? These guys rocked limited movesets on a regular basis at the peak of their populaity, and yet you praise them for having given you some of the wrestest matches of all time... What about the moves?! You are a walking contradiction.

Hogan did have a limited moveset, but he could work a crowd better than anyone in the business, he made up for his flaws. Cena isn't quite that good and I'm not sure that he will ever be. Austin's moveset consisted of alot of strikes, but he had plenty of wrestling moves to back him up. Watch him in WCW or as the Ring Master, wrestling wasn't a problem for him.

You should seriously sit down and think about your views on wrestling and where you acquired them before replying.

I do, every damn day I do. I wonder, why can't I just enjoy this like I did? But, alas, I just can't, because as long as a none wrestler is the face of a wrestling company, I will never be satisfied.

 

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

Austin's moveset consisted of alot of strikes, but he had plenty of wrestling moves to back him up. Watch him in WCW or as the Ring Master, wrestling wasn't a problem for him.

Watch Cena in OVW as the Prototype, he can most definatley wrestle. He has a lot more moves than what he shows on RAW, he only does those moves because that's what creative books him to do and the crowd eats it up. I think you just need to accept you hate Cena because for some reason he get's under your skin, either that or you're trying to be cool by going against the face of the company. Get over it and move on because your arguments for the most part have been countered and you've got nothing else to say other than repeating your bullshit.

Cena > You.

 

[Paradox]

Must admit I'm starting to enjoy this TakerFan1....

Yes he does. C'mon, it just rolls right off the tongue.

Really? C'mon it doesn't. Because the guy doesn't....

You got me. I have nothing to say to that, you are the man.

Thanks...

I wasn't exactly saying that he needed to change his finisher's name. I was stating that he changed it's name to something boring and corny to try and prove, whatever point I was making at the time(there are so many).

Oh, ok... If you are talking about Cena in that way, look at every other superstar in the wwe. It's the case with all of them. Fact. Look at Triple h, Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Taker, Matt Hardy, Randy Orton. (who is basically back to what he was a year ago) What have any of them done besides change heel face in the last five years? Taker is the only one that has changed anything, and he only added a couple of moves.

I will give you NoC with HHH, but his match with Batista, in my opinion did not live up to the hype. Also, I have always thought very highly of "The Wrestling God," as far as his ability in the ring and on the mic. I don't think that JBL is boring at all.

First off, what Hype did the Cena Batista match get? It was put on in like 3 weeks. So am I right to assume that you found his matches with JBL good. If that's the case, then you agree that he was very good last year. Considering he was only there for half the year.

Agreed. Not everyone can. I say that they could take someone like JTG from Cryme Tyme and make him look great for 30 min.

And what has Cryme tyme done? yeah that's right nothing.

To me, it made it look like any reality T.V. star could come to WWE and whip Cena's ass. It made me feel like I had a future with WWE.

Miz is a future main eventer, he has proven that he could get it done on the mic. The only thing that he had left to do was to prove it in the ring which he did. Look Cena elevated him to a credible state.

I think that he was helping Vickie on SD, but thanks for giving me that one.

Yeah, like I said, nothing....

I still say that it was boring and stale. I had no intrest in it at all. We knew Cena was going to win. However, the fact that this match was boring and stale wasn't Cena's fault, Khali just can't wrestle.

EXACTLY, so don't blame it on Cena.

It is a combination of all those things, but Cena isn't the total package because he doesn't have the wrestling chops.

Yes he does, look at the matches that I given you before. Gah, if he doesn't have the chops he wouldn't be on the level that he is.

I will say that his match with Orton at Summerslam was a good one and I will give you some of his matches with Jericho. I've already given you his match with HHH, but the rest were mediocre at best.

So the tlc match was mediocre? If you think that your nuts, it was one of the best one on one tlc matches.

(Sobs.....) But you all are just so mean. Yes we do all have valid points and it is a forum and I expect nothing less than the best debate.

Good...

BTW.........CENA SUCKS!!!!

BTW....... NO HE DOESN'T.

Big motherfucking opinion here and your taste in wrestlers, such as Cena sucks, for the most part, but hey, I'm going to take this one step at a time.

Yeah, we know that you think Cena sucks, but we don't see it that way. Because in our opinion he is one of the best right now.

You're right, there were alot of rest holds in the match(it was an hour), but the match itself was epic. Epic for the storytelling, psycology, and moves.

Yeah, a lot of rest hold, I remember watching Rock vs Triple, I don't remember near as many rest hold, and I also remember it telling a damn good story. Also in my opinion, it was the better of the two matches.

You are right, Austin wasn't exactly Dean Malenko(one of the best technical wrestlers ever), but his move set was far more defined than Cena's. Name Austin's 5 moves of doom please, in order to, leading up to the Stunner. What's that? Can't do it? Because he never had a set of signatures leading into his Stunner, it was always sudden and unexpected. If you can give me one example, I could find 5 to discredit you.

What did Austin do? Really, you want to complain about 5 moves that Cena uses, what the hell else did Austin use? The only move I can remember see Austin use was a lois press or whatever it's called. Then his submission from his ringmaster gimmick, then a stunner. Really c'mon, Austin was made because of his character not his wrestling ability

One thing, in 20 years these matches will still be talked about, Cena vs Umaga or Cena vs Edge will not. Prove me wrong.

Time will tell...

This match is a testament to HBK, not Cena.

Sorry got to say it again. BULLSHIT. Seriously? You really can't give Cena any credit can you? Look they went for nearly an hour. I've told you once and you agreed with me. You can't have a great match, or an hour long match without two great in ring performers. Look at the matches that have gone an hour? HBK v Hart, no question there. HHH vs Rock, no question there. Lesnar v Angle, nope. So yeah can't say that a match goes for an hour and is a great match is all on one guy.

Hogan did have a limited moveset, but he could work a crowd better than anyone in the business, he made up for his flaws. Cena isn't quite that good and I'm not sure that he will ever be. Austin's moveset consisted of alot of strikes, but he had plenty of wrestling moves to back him up. Watch him in WCW or as the Ring Master, wrestling wasn't a problem for him.

And Cena can't? You want to see Cena work a crowd. Look at One Night Stand against RVD. He came in hated and he played that off. Yeah, and when wrestling wasn't a problem for Austin what was he? Oh yeah, a mid-carder, nothing more!

 

[Coco]

You're right, there were alot of rest holds in the match(it was an hour), but the match itself was epic. Epic for the storytelling, psycology, and moves.

Explain how the storytelling and the psychology were better than Cena's best matches. In detail, mind you. I want to see you elaborate on the subject. Enlighten me. Clearly I have no clue what I'm looking for.

You are right, Austin wasn't exactly Dean Malenko(one of the best technical wrestlers ever), but his move set was far more defined than Cena's. Name Austin's 5 moves of doom please, in order to, leading up to the Stunner. What's that? Can't do it? Because he never had a set of signatures leading into his Stunner, it was always sudden and unexpected. If you can give me one example, I could find 5 to discredit you.

Point is, Austin always did the same moves in his prime. Press, elbow after running off the ropes, stomps, punches, stunner. Maybe a transition move or two thrown in for effect if Austin was feeling energetic. Austin's moveset was even worse than that of Cena.

But if your argument is "he didn't always do them in succession leading towards the finish", then I defy you to defend the modern wrestling God that is Shawn Michaels. Leaps up, a couple atomic drops, fists, flying forearm, elbow, SCM. In the average match, he follows this routine religiously, changing the order on occasion. Once in a while he'll exchange finishers and kickouts with a guy, and then suddenly his match is a classic... How does that happen? In fact, and it seems you aren't willing to recognize it, key moves are a part of the style of wrestling WWE has Cena do. Everyone has their own moves designed to pop the crowd, with wrestlers rarely expected to do anything extra. But to pretend Cena has never gone that extra mile is bullshit. Plain and simple, you aren't watching.

One thing, in 20 years these matches will still be talked about, Cena vs Umaga or Cena vs Edge will not.

I bolded it and everything and you still had trouble reading. Poor you. I'll repeat myself.

These matches are better than Cena matches because you remember them? What kind of criteria for judging the greatness of a match is "I remember it"? I want to know what, specifically, was good about each match. I want you to not leave out a single detail. Psychology, storytelling, the whole nine.

See, I could just as easily say the Can-Am Connection vs. Bob Orton and Magnificent Muraco from WM3 is a great match because I remember it... by your standards. Your standards don't really hold up here... or make much sense.

Prove me wrong.

I don't have a time machine, silly.

Good for you.

But see, this makes the matches good! Because I remember them!

GET IT?!

This match is a testament to HBK, not Cena.

Why?

I have my own opinion and if you think that I am conditioned by WWE to think I should like those matches, then why don't I like Cena?

Because you long for the glory days. Because you read the wrong wrestling websites. Because you don't recognize how ass backwards your standards are and what a massive hypocrite you look like. Because it's just a matter of taste but you've decided to refuse to be the bigger man and admit there's nothing wrong with Cena and you just simply don't like him and make it simple.

He has the most video packages and is the most promoted in the WWE right now, So why don't I like him? Because, in my opinion, he sucks!

You're wrong.

I do, every damn day I do. I wonder, why can't I just enjoy this like I did? But, alas, I just can't, because as long as a none wrestler is the face of a wrestling company, I will never be satisfied.

Wait... Cena isn't a trained wrestling?!

Oh, right. He is.

Oh, one more thing. Yesterday you said that Taker remained more relevant with the fans than Cena. This was an outright lie, but you declined to defend yourself. I'll bring it up again and again until you nut up and give a proper answer.

Look at 'Taker, he knows how to remain relevant with the fans. Change costume, moves, mind set, upgrade entrances, keeps him fresh.

Cena promos on a regular basis. Undertaker does not. Cena's entrance has changed over the course of four years. Taker's has not. In the last four years, Taker changed his pants once to a tighter, more athletic looking pair of bottoms. Cena has changed the look of his short multiple times and frequently has new shirts for the fans to take joy in. In addition, he's gone from throwbacks to WWE merch during the course of his development. When was the last time Taker changed his mindset?! In addition, Taker has added one move to his routine in the last decade. Cena has crafted himself something completely new in that decade. Taker has been an afterthought. Cena has been the face of wrestling and even had his own title belt made which is still being used today.

Cena is far more relevant than Taker.