The *Official* John Cena Thread

[Paradox]

Say what, they praised Cena? I seem to recall everyone, even Cena saying that Michaels was arguably the best ever in that video.

Yeah they said he was the best... Then they said that they put on a hell of match.

Jericho said, "He's Mr. Wrestlemania, you think he takes that lightly, hell no." J.R. said, "Cena went to finishing school that night with HBK."

Showing that Cena new what he was doing, that he didn't need to be carried as you said he was.

Cena said, "HBK tought me how to hold my own in a big match situation."

Yeah he did... Does that mean that HBK carried the match... nope

HBK said, "I like working with John and likes that he trusts me." Which means that he trusted HBK to carry that match through.

Can you make anything else up? Here's one Shawn won the match... Really you like putting twist on everything... Show me one place in the whole video people said HBK carried the match.... One place, that you're not reading into everything that is read.

HBK also said, "You are known as the guy who can go, I'm the veteran so I'm in control." Stop me if you want more quotes. You need to watch it again, I don't think you watched it closely enough.

Really.... dude, just because he's in control does not mean he carried the match. I don't know if you've noticed, but Cena had the ton of offensive in that match... Meaning that he carried as much if not more than Shawn....

Somebody is angry aren't they? What does it mean then? If the match sucked then all the blame should go on HBK cause he couldn't deliver and Cena would have had no part in it?

Did I say that no... I would have blamed them both.... Hbk said that he was the veteran it was fair that he get the blame if it went wrong.... watch that part....

Be serious! If he gets the blame for a sucky match then he should get the credit for a great match.

Look above....

Fucking double standard here. I stated everything I needed to above. Watch the damn video again.

No there's not, just one that you've made up... So, who's angry now?

 

[Paradox]

Say what, they praised Cena? I seem to recall everyone, even Cena saying that Michaels was arguably the best ever in that video.

Yeah they said he was the best... Then they said that they put on a hell of match.

Jericho said, "He's Mr. Wrestlemania, you think he takes that lightly, hell no." J.R. said, "Cena went to finishing school that night with HBK."

Showing that Cena new what he was doing, that he didn't need to be carried as you said he was.

Cena said, "HBK tought me how to hold my own in a big match situation."

Yeah he did... Does that mean that HBK carried the match... nope

HBK said, "I like working with John and likes that he trusts me." Which means that he trusted HBK to carry that match through.

Can you make anything else up? Here's one Shawn won the match... Really you like putting twist on everything... Show me one place in the whole video people said HBK carried the match.... One place, that you're not reading into everything that is read.

HBK also said, "You are known as the guy who can go, I'm the veteran so I'm in control." Stop me if you want more quotes. You need to watch it again, I don't think you watched it closely enough.

Really.... dude, just because he's in control does not mean he carried the match. I don't know if you've noticed, but Cena had the ton of offensive in that match... Meaning that he carried as much if not more than Shawn....

Somebody is angry aren't they? What does it mean then? If the match sucked then all the blame should go on HBK cause he couldn't deliver and Cena would have had no part in it?

Did I say that no... I would have blamed them both.... Hbk said that he was the veteran it was fair that he get the blame if it went wrong.... watch that part....

Be serious! If he gets the blame for a sucky match then he should get the credit for a great match.

Look above....

Fucking double standard here. I stated everything I needed to above. Watch the damn video again.

No there's not, just one's that you've made up... So, who's angry now?

 

[SSJPhenom]

Not every Shawn fan does. His DVD could have gained a lot in the way of looking unbiased in certain matters if they threw footage of Bret or his supporters speaking about certain things in there.

I agree they could have made it seem less biased, but I am one Michaels fan who also loved Bret Hart and I know the entire story. After Michaels won at WM 12, he told Bret to get out of the ring and that it was his moment, blah blah blah. I read Bret's book aswell and Bret blames Shawn for everything that happened in the Attitude Era. I guess you believe that one too.

And JR sold it as a sad moment that Shawn was leaving. Shawn wasn't painted as nearly the prick he was (is?) despite the fact that they showed him kicking the door.

Yea and from Shawn's point of view(it was his DVD) it was a sad moment for him.

Taker did an interview, and I THINK it was on Off The Record in Canada (I may be wrong), where he talked about making sure Shawn did the right thing.

You are right. He did it right before WM 18 and he spoke candidly about disciplining all the guys before they have to go to management. He spoke about how if Shawn, "didn't do the right thing," it would have been a long night for him. Those were his exact words.

Of course they said he didn't WANT to lose to Austin but they never got specific. They left blind marks as blind as they went in. The whole piece was soft.

They weren't specific in that aspect, no. The didn't just come out and say he didn't want to lose, but 'Taker did say that he didn't want to do the right thing. I think that we can put two and two together.

Because talking bad about the Clique is punishable by beheading or depush or something. There are things you can't say and saying one wrestled circles around Shawn Michaels is something a company man can't. Cena isn't gonna break the rules and the WWE would have cut it out if he did.

Anyone in the company, from Cena to Jimmy Wang Yang should never say that they wrestled circles around someone, it is disrespectful. That's what we, the fans, are here for. Do you honestly think that Cena wrestled circles around HBK?

Of course Kurt Angle shouted it from the rooftops once he was out of the WWE about how he carried his matches with Shawn and about how Shawn was a sissy who didn't like getting his hair pulled.. He also dragged good matches out of Benoit and Guerrero too and is 100% the reason for the greatest match in history. Wrestlers lie.

Kurt has talked so much shit about WWE since he has left that one can't be sure if he is just bitter or if he is actually telling the truth. Remember, "Wrestlers lie!"

Nah, forget that. I'm totally gonna believe the wrestlers. They're at liberty to speak the truth. Shawn's ego isn't in the way. Consequences for saying the wrong thing wouldn't be on anyone's mind.

We aren't sure of what the wrong thing is now are we? Do we work for them. This is the only video that talks about the behind the scenes of that match, so I think that we might have to give it, it's due. Jericho wasn't apart of the WWE when the DVD came out, so was he at liberty to tell the truth?

WWE is selling the image of "Shawn Michaels, best ring worker in the West!" and you're sucking your slop down like a starved slave. At least you like the taste.

WWE is selling the image of John Cena, superman and media superstar and let's not forget super face and you are sucking it up off the damn ground. So what is the point of this entire conversation? Do I think that HBK is a better performer than Cena? Your damn right I do and I will do anything to try and get that point across.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Yeah they said he was the best... Then they said that they put on a hell of match.

Ok, I'm still sticking with HBK.

Showing that Cena new what he was doing, that he didn't need to be carried as you said he was.

That's one way to look at it of course. I have a question now, if you don't mind. Could Cena, since he is so good he brings everyone else he faces up, have had a better match with anyone else on the WWE roster? If so, tell me who and why.

Yeah he did... Does that mean that HBK carried the match... nope

If HBK, "taught him,"(Cena's words, not mine since I'm making everything up) what else could it mean? Cena also said that HBK brings the best out of everyone and if you are not ready to step up to his level, again, his level, stay at home. Did you see that part?

Can you make anything else up? Here's one Shawn won the match... Really you like putting twist on everything... Show me one place in the whole video people said HBK carried the match.... One place, that you're not reading into everything that is read.

Of course they are not going to come out and say, "HBK carried that match," so we are forced to read between the lines and based off what was said in that video, I'm going with HBK. I wish I was as good at making things up like you say I am, I might be famous one day.

Really.... dude, just because he's in control does not mean he carried the match. I don't know if you've noticed, but Cena had the ton of offensive in that match... Meaning that he carried as much if not more than Shawn....

Ok, so he is in control of the match right? We agree on that. So if HBK controlled the match, idk what you want to say he controlled, let's go with he controlled the pace, then how did he not carry it? Doing a few punches and kicks doesn't automatically make Cena the one that carried the match. Psychology, Crowd control and other things also help carry the match and I thnk that Shawn did that better than Cena in their match.

Did I say that no... I would have blamed them both.... Hbk said that he was the veteran it was fair that he get the blame if it went wrong.... watch that part....

HBK said that it was fair to blame him, yes. So if it is fair to blame him, why is not fair to credit him?

Look above....

I did.

No there's not, just one's that you've made up... So, who's angry now?

So I made up the double standard? You were the one that pointed out Shawn saying blame him if it sucked. Again, if we blame him for a bad match, we have to credit him for a good match. Not all the credit mind you, but alot of it. I'm not angry. I mean, for you, say one thing out of the norm about Cena or the Rock and you go apeshit.

 

[Paradox]

Ok, I'm still sticking with HBK.

Because you hate Cena You can't give him any credit... Because he doesn't fit what you like. Get over it. Question? If you hate the guy so much why do you keep coming back?

That's one way to look at it of course. I have a question now, if you don't mind. Could Cena, since he is so good he brings everyone else he faces up, have had a better match with anyone else on the WWE roster? If so, tell me who and why.

Yeah it's one way to look at it... Let's see who he's made look good. 07-08.Let's walk through this. He made Umaga look good in their matches. His matches with HBK were Shawns best matches since his matches with Trips. His match with Lashley was one of the best matches Lashley had. He brought Orton back from where ever he was. Then he was injured. He then came back and helped put Orton over. Moving to a feud with JBL in which he put him over. Before coming back from injury to win the belt... Then look at this year. He lost the title twice to Edge. He then put over Swagger and Miz... Now the part where you come here and say this one was bad this was bad and this was bad... Why? Because you don't think Cena is capable of anything good.

If HBK, "taught him,"(Cena's words, not mine since I'm making everything up) what else could it mean? Cena also said that HBK brings the best out of everyone and if you are not ready to step up to his level, again, his level, stay at home. Did you see that part?

Yeah I did, and Cena did step his game up... so stop saying that he didn't...

Of course they are not going to come out and say, "HBK carried that match," so we are forced to read between the lines and based off what was said in that video, I'm going with HBK. I wish I was as good at making things up like you say I am, I might be famous one day.

We aren't forced to read in between the lines... You are coming up with your own ideas all be it far fetched ones at that... Why can't you just take something at face value.... It's people like you that ruin wrestling for many, because you have to look deeper than you need to...

Ok, so he is in control of the match right? We agree on that. So if HBK controlled the match, idk what you want to say he controlled, let's go with he controlled the pace, then how did he not carry it? Doing a few punches and kicks doesn't automatically make Cena the one that carried the match. Psychology, Crowd control and other things also help carry the match and I thnk that Shawn did that better than Cena in their match.

That's your opinion... Many on here are of the opinion that Cena did just as much work in that match as Shawn... So don't red rep me telling me that I'm going against facts....

HBK said that it was fair to blame him, yes. So if it is fair to blame him, why is not fair to credit him?

Did I ever say I wasn't? nope there you go again reading into things....

So I made up the double standard? You were the one that pointed out Shawn saying blame him if it sucked. Again, if we blame him for a bad match, we have to credit him for a good match.

Yes, it was you that made it up. Did I ever say that I didn't give HBK any credit for that match.... No I never said that. If you remember in a prior post with you I said that it takes to great in ring performers to put on a great match. In this case you had that. It was a great match. I give both credit for people on a amazing match.

Not all the credit mind you, but alot of it. I'm not angry. I mean, for you, say one thing out of the norm about Cena or the Rock and you go apeshit.

Because when you talk about the rock you're completely off base in what your saying... And you're talking out of both sides of your mouth with him and Cena... Because one person can do one thing, but if Cena does it it's crap.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Because you hate Cena You can't give him any credit... Because he doesn't fit what you like. Get over it. Question? If you hate the guy so much why do you keep coming back?

I seem to remember giving Cena credit for things in the past. Ok, HBK couldn't have had a great match by himself, but Cena couldn't have had a better match with anyone else. That is all I am going to say about that. I keep coming back because it's wrestling, not the John Cena show.

Yeah it's one way to look at it... Let's see who he's made look good. 07-08.Let's walk through this. He made Umaga look good in their matches. His matches with HBK were Shawns best matches since his matches with Trips. His match with Lashley was one of the best matches Lashley had. He brought Orton back from where ever he was. Then he was injured. He then came back and helped put Orton over. Moving to a feud with JBL in which he put him over. Before coming back from injury to win the belt... Then look at this year. He lost the title twice to Edge. He then put over Swagger and Miz... Now the part where you come here and say this one was bad this was bad and this was bad... Why? Because you don't think Cena is capable of anything good.

I'm not going to say anything about those matches that you listed, not a word. However, you didn't answer my question. Could Cena have had a better match at WM 23 with anyone else on the WWE roster?

Yeah I did, and Cena did step his game up... so stop saying that he didn't...

Never said that Cena didn't step his game up. You and some other people keep saying that Cena brought HBK to his level and I simply disagree, especially when Cena himself said that he had to bring himself to Shawn's level.

We aren't forced to read in between the lines... You are coming up with your own ideas all be it far fetched ones at that... Why can't you just take something at face value.... It's people like you that ruin wrestling for many, because you have to look deeper than you need to...

You don't have to be offensive. I'm sorry if I ruin wrestling for you, I really am. You said it yourself before. We are critics now, because the product just isn't as good as it used to be.

That's your opinion... Many on here are of the opinion that Cena did just as much work in that match as Shawn... So don't red rep me telling me that I'm going against facts....

Fair enough. I am still going to stick with my opinion on that match that HBK worked harder. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's how I feel.

Did I ever say I wasn't? nope there you go again reading into things....

Ok.....

Yes, it was you that made it up. Did I ever say that I didn't give HBK any credit for that match.... No I never said that. If you remember in a prior post with you I said that it takes to great in ring performers to put on a great match. In this case you had that. It was a great match. I give both credit for people on a amazing match.

Two great performers can always put on a great match(well not always, but you know what I mean), but I think that people like HBK and some others can put on great matches with people who are beneath them. I will admit that Cena can work a crowd and has the psychology, but I simply think that HBK is better than him. Sorry if that offends people, but it's how I feel.

Because when you talk about the rock you're completely off base in what your saying... And you're talking out of both sides of your mouth with him and Cena... Because one person can do one thing, but if Cena does it it's crap.

I told you before that I said that shit about The Rock just to draw you out and it worked. You took it hook line and sinker. I love The Great One, The People's Champ, hell I even loved the corporate champ. With Cena, however, is he as good as The Rock? I will let you answer that one yourself.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I'm not going to say anything about those matches that you listed, not a word. However, you didn't answer my question. Could Cena have had a better match at WM 23 with anyone else on the WWE roster?

How about that Undertaker guy? I'm sure you know him. That guy who helped Batista have the match of his life which was better than the HBK/Cena match. I'm sure the Undertaker and Cena would have had a great match. We can't forget about that person who's real name is Adam but goes by the name Edge. I'm sure he has great matches with Cena in the past and can do so at Wrestlemania.

 

[SSJPhenom]

How about that Undertaker guy? I'm sure you know him. That guy who helped Batista have the match of his life which was better than the HBK/Cena match. I'm sure the Undertaker and Cena would have had a great match. We can't forget about that person who's real name is Adam but goes by the name Edge. I'm sure he has great matches with Cena in the past and can do so at Wrestlemania.

I love 'Taker to death, but not even I think that his match with Batista was better than HBK/Cena. Although that was Batista's best match and yes, it was better than Cena/Batista. Sure, Edge is good, hell he might be great and him and Cena have had some GOOD matches, but could he have had a better match with Cena at WM 23? Would a regular Raw match between Edge and Cena be as good as Cena/HBK in London? Could Undertaker have had a better match with Cena at WM 23? People forget when Cena was the Dr. of Thuganomics he faced 'Taker and it was a solid good match, but it wasn't great. So I don't even think 'Taker could have done better.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I'm serious.

I realize that a lot of the people who post on here don't like him.... but a lot of the same people who dislike Cena seem to be attitude era fanboys who won't grow up and move on. WWE is trying to make new stars for whatever the next big era will be. A ton of people look up to Cena's character (myself included) and people like us really enjoyed his year-long title runs. That was what got me to come back into wrestling again, I had quit caring when Stone Cold and the Rock were gone but I found a new hero in Cena.

Cena is like this generation's Hogan. Many would agree. Ratings were higher during both of his year-long title reigns. Fans would get to see their hero beat up on more people each week, and wwe gets higher ratings that they wanted because more and more people would be telling their friends to tune in and watch Cena because he's awesome (pun towards Miz intended)....

Also another thing it would fix is people whining about the titles being changed too many times. Longer title reigns help with raising the prestige of a title.

I say Cena should win at summerslam and have another title reign that lasts as long as his 05-06 and 06-07 reigns lasted.

Agree or disagree, and why?
_

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Goodness fuckin knows it would be more entertaining that captain monotone every week. That, and it could helo get a number of guys over, as they fued with Cena, trying to take the title off him. Also, the man who beats him finally gets a giant rub (<--haha) like Edge did at NYR. Yes, good idea. Legitimize more people, and would be more entertaining from week to week. They have made the Cena character mortal over the last year or so, so it would bring back the intrigue to the chase. Also, we might just be able to get some variance in challengers.

 

[Save Me Y2J]

I do not fully agree or disagree with the idea....but i think a new superstar like swagger or MVP should get a year long run with the title as it will boost their career....n remember when the first time cena got a year long run he wasnt an established main eventer...so by giving the strap to a new talent...they could create a new cena (always main eventer) in them....

 

[stryfe604]

I agree and disagree. I think putting Cena in a title chase with an amazing heel would be good. IMO The things that stand out the most about hogan in his era was his title chases not his title runs. IMO no one really remembers the title defense unless it was an amazing match. But everyone remembers Hogans rise to beat Iron Sheik, or his rise to get back the title from Andre. But this also raises the problem off who can be that genuinely hated top heel again IMO Jericho would be amazing. But the one for sure thing is it shouldn't be Orton, or Triple H.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I love 'Taker to death, but not even I think that his match with Batista was better than HBK/Cena. Although that was Batista's best match and yes, it was better than Cena/Batista. Sure, Edge is good, hell he might be great and him and Cena have had some GOOD matches, but could he have had a better match with Cena at WM 23? Would a regular Raw match between Edge and Cena be as good as Cena/HBK in London? Could Undertaker have had a better match with Cena at WM 23? People forget when Cena was the Dr. of Thuganomics he faced 'Taker and it was a solid good match, but it wasn't great. So I don't even think 'Taker could have done better.

That's the fun of playing the "what if" game. We think about things that we will never know. Let me turn it around. Could HBK have had a better match with anybody else but Cena? I liked the HBK/Cena better than I did HBK/Taker so that could leave the Deadman out of the equation. Would a HBK/Jericho match be just as good as a regular RAW match between HBK and Jeff Hardy? I don't think Undertaker or Jericho would have done much better.

 

[SSJPhenom]

That's the fun of playing the "what if" game. We think about things that we will never know. Let me turn it around. Could HBK have had a better match with anybody else but Cena? I liked the HBK/Cena better than I did HBK/Taker so that could leave the Deadman out of the equation. Would a HBK/Jericho match be just as good as a regular RAW match between HBK and Jeff Hardy? I don't think Undertaker or Jericho would have done much better.

I'm going to end this silly part of the debate and just straight up tell you NO! HBK couldn't have had a better match with anyone in the company at WM 23.........Unless HBK wanted to! Of course I think his match with 'Taker was better, but that's me. I think that if HBK wants to, there isn't anyone on the roster that he couldn't tear it up with. Can the same be said about Cena? Has he proven himself enough for people to think that he could have a match with a horrible performer and it still be good? I am going to say no, what will you say? (please don't use the Khali reference, it is played out and you know I'm just going to say that I didn't like it, because, well, I didn't)

 

[SavageTaker]

Undertaker's#1fan, I was laying down on my bed and I suddenly remembered something you posted a few weeks ago on the &#8220;Is Undertaker the Best Big Man Ever&#8221; thread that you created. So I went treasure hunting throughout that thread looking for what I remembered you posted. And I came upon this gem and I thought I should share it with everyone:

WOW!!! You are defending 'Taker? Although I enjoy reading great things about 'Taker, I expected to get half way through your post and read something about Vader. So you do agree that people still WANT to see him. People still PAY to see him. That he is still relevant and that he is the most respected talent in the WWE. Well the man has been at it for almost 20 years and is still going strong. So with all that in mind, doesn't that mean that he is, not only the best big man ever, but one of THE BEST EVER?

According to you, The Undertaker is one of the best ever because of all of the things I put in bold. Wouldn&#8217;t the same thing apply to John Cena because he has a lot of those qualities too? People still want to see John Cena. People pay to see him. John Cena is also still relevant and he is considered a leader of the locker room. He&#8217;s also gained a lot of respect from everyone including the veterans. John has been going strong for 7 years now and is still going strong.

Again, this is debatable. I happen to think that 'Taker is more successful and by definition, means he is the best big man ever.

You also qualified The Undertaker as the best big man ever because he was successful. Does this not apply to John Cena as well? Let&#8217;s take a look at how successful John Cena has been in the WWE. He has held the WWE title 3 times and the World Heavyweight champion 2 times for a combined total of 5 World Title reigns. He&#8217;s also held tag-team gold twice, the United States champion 3 times, Royal Rumble Winner for 2008, and he&#8217;s main-evented Wrestlemania (last match on the card) a total of 2 times. And I almost forgot, he is the biggest draw the WWE currently has and one of the highest selling items the WWE sells is the title belt that John Cena made.

Oh wait, let me guess, because this is John Cena none of that matters, right? I can't wait to see how you contradict this with hypocritical statements.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Undertaker's#1fan, I was laying down on my bed and I suddenly remembered something you posted a few weeks ago on the “Is Undertaker the Best Big Man Ever” thread that you created. So I went treasure hunting throughout that thread looking for what I remembered you posted. And I came upon this gem and I thought I should share it with everyone:

You treasure hunt? WOW, that is the sign of desperation folks. When someone takes something I said about 'Taker and uses it to apply to John Cena.

According to you, The Undertaker is one of the best ever because of all of the things I put in bold. Wouldn’t the same thing apply to John Cena because he has a lot of those qualities too? People still want to see John Cena. People pay to see him. John Cena is also still relevant and he is considered a leader of the locker room. He’s also gained a lot of respect from everyone including the veterans. John has been going strong for 7 years now and is still going strong.

So we can officially call Cena one of the best ever? So if he quit right now, today, we would look back on him 5 to 10 years from now and say, that was one of the greatest stars of all time? Methinks not. How can you compare Undertaker's success to Cena? You can't. Also, why don't you do your treasure hunting from that thread and any other thread I have posted on about what I think makes a good pro wrestler and you will not ever see me mention success as the only marker. I think I mentioned 'Taker's great in ring ability, etc etc. I used 'Taker's success as an example only after I made my point about his abilities.

You also qualified The Undertaker as the best big man ever because he was successful. Does this not apply to John Cena as well? Let’s take a look at how successful John Cena has been in the WWE. He has held the WWE title 3 times and the World Heavyweight champion 2 times for a combined total of 5 World Title reigns. He’s also held tag-team gold twice, the United States champion 3 times, Royal Rumble Winner for 2008, and he’s main-evented Wrestlemania (last match on the card) a total of 2 times. And I almost forgot, he is the biggest draw the WWE currently has and one of the highest selling items the WWE sells is the title belt that John Cena made.

So are we officially going to compare Cena to 'Taker? Brock Lesnar was the biggest draw of the company too for about a year and a half, was he great? You are trying so hard to get me aren't you Cena fans? I stated everything I needed to above on this matter.

Oh wait, let me guess, because this is John Cena none of that matters, right? I can't wait to see how you contradict this with hypocritical statements.

Cena may be remembered as a good, if not great, perfermorer for his ability to draw, mic skills, and what have you, but I will never consider him good or great until I get what I want from him. Isn't this a thread about whether we like Cena or not? Well I don't like him and I will always tell you why.

 

[SavageTaker]

You treasure hunt? WOW, that is the sign of desperation folks. When someone takes something I said about 'Taker and uses it to apply to John Cena.

I’m not desperate and I doubt anyone else defending John Cena is desperate either. I brought up what you said to show your double-standards and hypocrisy when it came to John Cena.

So we can officially call Cena one of the best ever?

Where in my post did I say we can call Cena one of the best ever? What I was saying is that John Cena is one of the best that they CURRENTLY have. I never stated that we should call Cena one of the best ever because that honor goes to Hulk Hogan.

So we can officially call Cena one of the best ever? So if he quit right now, today, we would look back on him 5 to 10 years from now and say, that was one of the greatest stars of all time? Methinks not.

When did I say we would look back at him and remembered as one of the greatest stars of all time? If he was to quit right now, in 5 to 10 years people would remember him as the face of this era and the best this current era had.

How can you compare Undertaker's success to Cena?

Who is comparing ‘Takers success with Cena’s? If you understood my post then you would have understood what the intentions of it were. You qualified The Undertaker as one of the best ever because of his accomplishment and if we go by your logic then Cena would qualify as one of if not the best in this CURRENT era.

You can't.

It doesn’t matter if I can or if I can’t because I wasn’t comparing The Undertaker’s success to John Cena’s success.

Also, why don't you do your treasure hunting from that thread and any other thread I have posted on about what I think makes a good pro wrestler and you will not ever see me mention success as the only marker.

When did I say success was the only marker? It’s one of the “markers” but it isn’t the only one. And if we go by your definition of what makes a good pro-wrestler then Cena would qualify because he has all of the aspects that a pro-wrestler should have.

I think I mentioned 'Taker's great in ring ability, etc etc. I used 'Taker's success as an example only after I made my point about his abilities.

I know I mentioned your post in that thread because I wanted to show how you apply double-standards and show hypocrisy when it comes to John Cena.

So are we officially going to compare Cena to 'Taker?

Again I repeat, no one is comparing Cena to Taker. I don’t know where you come up with silly things like that.

Brock Lesnar was the biggest draw of the company too for about a year and a half, was he great?

Who said Brock Lesnar was great? And can you prove he was the biggest draw the company had during his tenure with them?

You are trying so hard to get me aren't you Cena fans? I stated everything I needed to above on this matter.

Trust me, I’m not trying hard at all to get you to be a Cena fan because I can see you’re stubborn and will never see logic.

Cena may be remembered as a good, if not great, perfermorer for his ability to draw, mic skills, and what have you, but I will never consider him good or great until I get what I want from him. Isn't this a thread about whether we like Cena or not? Well I don't like him and I will always tell you why.

What is it that you want from him? I believe this is a thread about all things John Cena, not just whether you like him or not. And you still haven’t given good or moderately good reasons as to why you don’t like him. You’ve been proven to be wrong so many times already by so many people. But you continue in hopes that people will think you’re right, which you are not.

 

[Mr. TM]

I have never actually posted in this thread, so I thought I would share some of my thoughts on John Cena.

Outside the ring: I always look at what a professional does outside their line of duty to learn about them as a person. John Cena has always seemed like the guy who wouldn't mind if you talked to him, he seems to live a moderate life, and he seems to be liked back stage. I give him full marks for his off screen life.

Inside the ring: The man does not get enough credit for his work inside the ring. For those who critize what he does in the ring, you seem to be missing what wrestling is about. He makes the other talent look like they can beat him, and when he loses, the other talent looks like the are onstoppable. He is smooth in the ring for a bigger guy and uses the same pattern in the ring, just as many other greats have done, such as Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, and Randy Savage.

On the mic: he is one of the best men the WWE has. He seems confident, he hardly messes up a line, and appeals to the market the WWE attracts. I cannot fault him there.

As a character: I do think he does lack a good character. Though he is in a bit of a transition as we speak, the man needs to get a character that makes people respect him. He talks about respect, but why should the other talent respect him? He needs that worked into his character, just like Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, The Rock, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Ric Flair, and so many others have done.

 

[Paradox]

You treasure hunt? WOW, that is the sign of desperation folks. When someone takes something I said about 'Taker and uses it to apply to John Cena.

Takerfan you make me laugh.... How exactly is it a sign of desperation? He took your statements about Undertaker. For things that he does, that you qualify him as one of the best ever. He takes what you say make taker great, and shows how Cena does the same thing. These are are the things that you said about Taker.

So you do agree that people still WANT to see him. People still PAY to see him.

People pay to see Cena, it's obvious look at his merchandise sells. No one is close to Cena, people even if there going there to boo him, they are going there to see him. Don't come back and say only the kids are buying his stuff, because that isn't the case. If it was Mysterio I would give it to you. Cena no.[/QUOTE]

That he is still relevant and that he is the most respected talent in the WWE.

Cena is relevant, and he is one of the most respected talents in the business. Everyone in the locker room respects his work ethic. If you don't you have serious issues. The guy does everything that the company ask of him, and more. Cena is one of the most respected people in the business today.

So we can officially call Cena one of the best ever? So if he quit right now, today, we would look back on him 5 to 10 years from now and say, that was one of the greatest stars of all time?

If he were to quit today, I would say no he's not. Why because for me to be one of the greatest ever you have to have some longevity to his career. Which he hasn't as of yet. He is one of the best today. Because of everything he has done for the company. If he keeps at the pace that he is going he could be one of the best ever.

Methinks not. How can you compare Undertaker's success to Cena? You can't.

You may not be able to, but by the list of things that you gave above SavageTaker could. Why? because Cena does everything that you listed. It's completely fair for him to do so. Because Cena has done those things.

Also, why don't you do your treasure hunting from that thread and any other thread I have posted on about what I think makes a good pro wrestler and you will not ever see me mention success as the only marker. I think I mentioned 'Taker's great in ring ability, etc etc. I used 'Taker's success as an example only after I made my point about his abilities.

Hmm. I will give you that. He does have great in ring ability, but I also believe that Cena has that as well. He knows how to work a match. He is able to pull an audience into a match better than anyone on the current roster, outside of Taker, and Hbk. Though in my mind Cena does it on a more regular bases than Hbk or Taker. Why? Because Taker before his match with HBK was caught in a series of meaningless feuds. Hbk? Same thing.

So are we officially going to compare Cena to 'Taker? Brock Lesnar was the biggest draw of the company too for about a year and a half, was he great?

He had the chance to be. That is why so many people had a bad taste in their mouth when he left. Because he had the chance to be great. Look who he went over in his brief time. Rock, Taker, Angle. Those are three of the biggest names in the industry. He went over all three in a year if I'm not mistaken. He had the chance to be great, and in that time he was. In history he won't be remember as so.

You are trying so hard to get me aren't you Cena fans? I stated everything I needed to above on this matter.

I already have on multiple occasions.... So gotcha again.

Cena may be remembered as a good, if not great, perfermorer for his ability to draw, mic skills, and what have you, but I will never consider him good or great until I get what I want from him.

And what is it you want from him? Because I never remember you ever saying what it is you want from him. Why because your constantly telling us what he isn't...

Isn't this a thread about whether we like Cena or not? Well I don't like him and I will always tell you why.

Yeah it is...Yet every reason that you have listed either myself or someone else has proved you wrong it.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I&#8217;m not desperate and I doubt anyone else defending John Cena is desperate either. I brought up what you said to show your double-standards and hypocrisy when it came to John Cena.

I don't think that I apply double standards at all. My point on 'Taker was all in what he has done and what he continues to do. My point on 'Taker was when he is finished, will he be remembered as the best big man ever.

Where in my post did I say we can call Cena one of the best ever? What I was saying is that John Cena is one of the best that they CURRENTLY have. I never stated that we should call Cena one of the best ever because that honor goes to Hulk Hogan.

I have never denied Cena's ability on the mic, his ability to draw, sell merchandise, or his ability to be a great ambassador out of the ring. I simply stated why I don't like Cena as a wrestler, again, WHY I DON'T LIKE CENA AS A WRESTLER. I do remember, however, stating many time that I respected the man for his work ethic and the appearance that he shows for the WWE out of the ring.

When did I say we would look back at him and remembered as one of the greatest stars of all time? If he was to quit right now, in 5 to 10 years people would remember him as the face of this era and the best this current era had.

By applying something that I said about 'Taker to Cena.

Who is comparing &#8216;Takers success with Cena&#8217;s? If you understood my post then you would have understood what the intentions of it were. You qualified The Undertaker as one of the best ever because of his accomplishment and if we go by your logic then Cena would qualify as one of if not the best in this CURRENT era.

Yes, he would qualify as one of the best that we have now. I never denied that and if you can show me a post where I did deny that, I would really love to see it. I also used 'Taker's in ring abilities as a qualification, but you were kind enough to omit that part from our discussion.

It doesn&#8217;t matter if I can or if I can&#8217;t because I wasn&#8217;t comparing The Undertaker&#8217;s success to John Cena&#8217;s success.

Fair enough.

When did I say success was the only marker? It&#8217;s one of the &#8220;markers&#8221; but it isn&#8217;t the only one. And if we go by your definition of what makes a good pro-wrestler then Cena would qualify because he has all of the aspects that a pro-wrestler should have.

By using the success quote that I used for 'Taker. It seemed to me that you were trying to say that I use success as the only marker, and again, if you read any of my discussions fully, you will never see me state that.

I know I mentioned your post in that thread because I wanted to show how you apply double-standards and show hypocrisy when it comes to John Cena.

Again, show me where I said that Cena wasn't successful, or he didn't draw, or he couldn't use a mic or any of that.

Again I repeat, no one is comparing Cena to Taker. I don&#8217;t know where you come up with silly things like that.

Because I'm silly.

Who said Brock Lesnar was great? And can you prove he was the biggest draw the company had during his tenure with them?

Go back on this thread and read something that the Wrath posted to me, he gives a site in one of those post that, yea, proves Lesnar was the biggest draw in wrestling for '03.

Trust me, I&#8217;m not trying hard at all to get you to be a Cena fan because I can see you&#8217;re stubborn and will never see logic.

What logic do you want me to see. You want me to be entertained by a man that doesn't entertain me? Again, I have never denied his fan base or success, but I don't like him as a performer.

What is it that you want from him? I believe this is a thread about all things John Cena, not just whether you like him or not. And you still haven&#8217;t given good or moderately good reasons as to why you don&#8217;t like him. You&#8217;ve been proven to be wrong so many times already by so many people. But you continue in hopes that people will think you&#8217;re right, which you are not.

I want from him something that he is never going to give me, a wrestling classic. If the man can give me a match that is on par with something like Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Warrior, HBK/Hart WM 12, Hart/Austin WM 13, HBK/'Taker WM 25, then I might say, "Damn, you know what, he has my respect as a performer." Don't get me wrong, he has had some quality good matches, but I can't call any of them classic. You want to know my favorite Cena match? I Quit with JBL was probably the best match that I have ever seen him in, but that one is never mentioned on this thread.

BTW, how have I been proven wrong? I state my opinion and you all give me your opinions, but how does that constitute me being PROVEN to be wrong. The only thing in recent posts that comes close to being proof is the video I posted where HBK said that his match with Cena was all on him to pull out.

 

[Paradox]

I want from him something that he is never going to give me, a wrestling classic.

Didn't you just praise his match with hbk? Both of their encounters were classics...

If the man can give me a match that is on par with something like Hogan/Andre,

You crack me up... That match is remember as a classic for one reason... The Slam, that's it. If it wasn't for that it would be nothing.

Hart/Austin WM 13, HBK/'Taker WM 25

I'll give you those two matches... Other's were more on the story than the actual matches...

BTW, how have I been proven wrong? I state my opinion and you all give me your opinions, but how does that constitute me being PROVEN to be wrong. The only thing in recent posts that comes close to being proof is the video I posted where HBK said that his match with Cena was all on him to pull out.

Wasn't it I that completely shot your theory of The Rock out of the water? Wasn't myself and others that said your video "proof" was you reading into much... Yeah it was... Get over it....

 

[SSJPhenom]

Didn't you just praise his match with hbk? Both of their encounters were classics...

I did praise his matches with HBK, but not for Cena. I would hardly call those matches classics, they were really good, but they aren't classics.

You crack me up... That match is remember as a classic for one reason... The Slam, that's it. If it wasn't for that it would be nothing.

Even if it is remembered for one spot, one moment in time, it is still remembered. Where is Cena's classic moment?

I'll give you those two matches... Other's were more on the story than the actual matches...

Yea, you really can't dispute those two matches. Hogan/Warrior was a classic to and let me tell you why. It was classic because that match gave us more out of Hogan and Warrior than we had seen. Two limited perfermorers put on a hell of a show that night.

Wasn't it I that completely shot your theory of The Rock out of the water? Wasn't myself and others that said your video "proof" was you reading into much... Yeah it was... Get over it....

Do you read my posts at all? I said that everything I said about the Rock was used to draw you out and it worked. I didn't mean anything I said about the Rock, gah........get over it. It is your opinion on whether I am reading to much into it or not and until you can prove the contrary, then I am the only one that has, "proof."

 

[Paradox]

I did praise his matches with HBK, but not for Cena. I would hardly call those matches classics, they were really good, but they aren't classics.

So they have an epic match, but you don't consider that a classic... wow you are pretty lame. It was one of the best matches in the last 10 years....

Even if it is remembered for one spot, one moment in time, it is still remembered. Where is Cena's classic moment?

Let's see how many Mania's has he walked out as champ? Yeah those aren't moments your right. What about the night he returned at the royal rumble.... nope that can't be it either. Wait what about the time that he came back from injury and won the title... dang no that couldn't be it either.... guess you're right...

Yea, you really can't dispute those two matches. Hogan/Warrior was a classic to and let me tell you why. It was classic because that match gave us more out of Hogan and Warrior than we had seen. Two limited perfermorers put on a hell of a show that night.

Classic? it was the story that was classic... Not the match....

Do you read my posts at all? I said that everything I said about the Rock was used to draw you out and it worked. I didn't mean anything I said about the Rock, gah........get over it. It is your opinion on whether I am reading to much into it or not and until you can prove the contrary, then I am the only one that has, "proof."

No, you were the one I believe that said that the rocked didn't you corny things to get a pop. Proved your wrong and you admitted. You really expect me to believe the fact that you lured me out by using The Rock... Your stating your opinion on the matter two... You don't have proof... you took a video read into... No one else agrees with you. Damn dude, you red repped me because I didn't read into it... You don't have proof you have your opinion and that's it...

 

[SSJPhenom]

So they have an epic match, but you don't consider that a classic... wow you are pretty lame. It was one of the best matches in the last 10 years....

You know, I have come to respect you over time but you are really losing it. Don't call me lame because I don't think a match that your hero had with HBK is a classic. It was a good wrestling match, nothing more. Hell, the story line leading into it wasn't even that great. The best part about their story for that match was the influx of Batista and 'Taker.

Let's see how many Mania's has he walked out as champ? Yeah those aren't moments your right. What about the night he returned at the royal rumble.... nope that can't be it either. Wait what about the time that he came back from injury and won the title... dang no that couldn't be it either.... guess you're right...

Let's get it straight. Classic moments. How many did Hogan, Austin, HHH, HBK, 'Taker walk out as champion? Were all those classic moments? No(except the first time 'Taker neeled with the belt, that was classic IMO). None of the moments that you mentioned were classic moments in wrestling history because if they were, then we would have alot more classic moments then we do have.

Classic? it was the story that was classic... Not the match....

That's one of the few matches of Hogan's that I actually enjoy, gah.......You are just being difficult.

No, you were the one I believe that said that the rocked didn't you corny things to get a pop. Proved your wrong and you admitted. You really expect me to believe the fact that you lured me out by using The Rock... Your stating your opinion on the matter two... You don't have proof... you took a video read into... No one else agrees with you. Damn dude, you red repped me because I didn't read into it... You don't have proof you have your opinion and that's it...

That is the only time that you have proved me wrong on anything. Yes I lured you out with the Rock. Honestly, when I was typing it, I thought, "Paradox is going to shit a brick when he reads this one." I know that I am stating my opinion on the matter, but I do have the closest thing to proof on that subject and I red repped you because when I was reading your post, I felt like you were insulting me. Sorry if that wasn't the case.

 

[Paradox]

You know, I have come to respect you over time but you are really losing it. Don't call me lame because I don't think a match that your hero had with HBK is a classic. It was a good wrestling match, nothing more. Hell, the story line leading into it wasn't even that great. The best part about their story for that match was the influx of Batista and 'Taker.

You know what, i really don't care if you respect me... I have enough people on here that respect me all ready... It was a great wrestling match, but had no story... okay. So wrestling matches can't be classic k.

Let's get it straight. Classic moments. How many did Hogan, Austin, HHH, HBK, 'Taker walk out as champion? Were all those classic moments? No(except the first time 'Taker neeled with the belt, that was classic IMO). None of the moments that you mentioned were classic moments in wrestling history because if they were, then we would have alot more classic moments then we do have.

??? an your point is? Cena returning wasn't epic? really ask anyone here...

That's one of the few matches of Hogan's that I actually enjoy, gah.......You are just being difficult.

I'm being difficult... nope, just stating my opinion, if you don't like it, tough....

That is the only time that you have proved me wrong on anything. Yes I lured you out with the Rock. Honestly, when I was typing it, I thought, "Paradox is going to shit a brick when he reads this one." I know that I am stating my opinion on the matter, but I do have the closest thing to proof on that subject and I red repped you because when I was reading your post, I felt like you were insulting me. Sorry if that wasn't the case.

Wow, I have to give you credit you are a brilliant mind... ....

sorry.... You have the closes thing to proof???? So your opinion is proof now? You stated your opinion on the video. We stated ours. You're the only one that agrees with your opinion... Takerfan you really are making me laugh now....