The Dragonball Z Thread!

[Ultra Awesome]

Sorry for the delay, my man. Had to take care of some shit before I could start.

The reason that I feel the ending for DBZ was better when it occurred (the Kid Buu Saga) is because of:

The legacy of Dragonball Z​

It should be no surprise in anyone’s mind that the best anime series of all time is Dragonball Z. No other anime show could have gardnered the popularity that DBZ had achieved in it’s lengthy reign. Sure, there are animes that come close to it. Them being: Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, and Death Note. However, despite as popular as these may get one day – none will ever compare to the level of brilliance that was DBZ. Why? Because DBZ was sort of like the pioneer for a new line of anime and manga. Ask any author from any manga – and they will tell you that DBZ had influenced them in one form of way.

But just how did DBZ reach this level of brilliance? Well it’s simple. The amazing non-stop action as well as the length that it had. By being as long as it was, DBZ was able to progress their storylines so much longer while at the same time increase the level of exposure the characters received. More importantly, the length of DBZ allowed for more compelling stories as well as more entertainment for the general audience.

It’s like this: When you are watching a show that you like, you always get this feeling that makes you not be able to wait to see what happens next. The episodes in a sense create a high level of ambiguity – thereinby keeping you entertained and wanting to see more. Therefore, based on this, it’s only logical to think that the fact that the Buu Sagas were added into the DBZ series was an added plus for DBZ as well as its fans. Any fan of said show always wants to see more of what they are watching. And with the Buu Sagas included, the fans get the more that they seek and the show makes more money.

Dragonball Z ranks in the money​

While I’m pretty sure Akira Toriyama loved to do what he did, it should be dully noted that a good reason as to why he created Dragonball Z was for the money. After all, everything revolves around money – and if you have money, you have a great life. With Dragonball Z being as long as it was, it only allowed for Akira (and the creators of the anime version) to get that much more money. And it was a huge success. With the addition of the Buu Sagas, it helped DBZ gain an even higher level of fans as well as conjure up various other products that made it rank in more money. Examples of this were merchandise, Video Games, Feature films, trading cards, etc etc.

Sure, DBZ could have still done that with only going up to the Cell Games Saga, but seeing as how you introduced new characters as well as new storylines, you have a much bigger avriety of choices in which you could make money from. If I were to compare this to the WWE, had you ended WWE programing, in say, the end of the Attitude Era, then you would have never been able to gain the product that the PG Era has brought you. Furthermore, you would never had had a John Cena – which brings me to my next main point.

Number one under the Sun: Goku​

Much like John Cena is the main character of the WWE, Goku is the main character in DBZ. When Dragonball (the original) began, it was all about him. It was about him and his journey (along with Bulma) to collect the Dragonballs. Once collected, Goku began to train with Krillin under the guidance of Master Roshi. It was then that Goku entered his World Martial Arts tournament and went on to battle against the Red Ribbon Army. Various other events occur to which I’m not going to adress as you should already know the story that is Goku. But my point being, DBZ revolved around Goku – Goku was the hero of the story – he was the one that always came out on top – and he was always the one that everyone looked to when in any peril.

Having said that, when you have the main hero of the story die against a foe that was too powerful for him to handle, then you practically destroy Goku’s image as being the most powerful human in the Universe. Sure, you could argue that all he did was pass the torch to his son, but in doing so, you hurt the image that Goku had created for himself. Goku was without a doubt a larger-than-life character. But what happens when this larger than life character winds up dead. Not so larger-than-life now, huh?

That was the problem to which Dragonball Z shouldn’t have ended after the Cell Games Saga. The main hero of the story is not able to maintain his spot at the top of the food chain. In addition, Goku is unable to be viewed as the all-time single most strongest anime character in every anime series. Think about it. No matter how much you think; no matter how hard you think – you could never argue that there is any other character in the anime world that is stronger than Goku. Goku became an icon. Goku became the symbol that paved the way for so many other anime characters. Yusuke Urameshi, Ichigo Kurosaki, Naruto Uzumaki – all of these guys and many more were based on the icon that was Goku.

Goku’s level of greatness is magnificent. Through Dragonball, through DBZ, and all the way to GT – Goku was forever and forever will be Number one under the sun

Aftermath​

So this brings me to the final main reason I argue DBZ was better off ending when it did. With DBZ ending at the conclusion of the Kid Buu Sagas, it allows for the birth of GT as well as the perfect ending for the entire Dragonball series. Furthermore, the legacy that Dragonball achieves as a result of so much poularity inspires many other authors to write their own stories. In addition, you the re-birth of Dragonball in the form of Dragonball Z Kai. But the biggest of all, the legacy that is Dragonball Z is able to be that much more greater. DBZ will forever be remembered as the best anime series of all time.

Could all this have been done without the Buu Sagas. Probably. But only to an extent. Because DBZ was made as long as it was, it made much more of an impact – an impact that wouldn’t have been the same with only ending in the Cell Games Sagas.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I’ll start with an opening argument(s) of my own before looking at your points:

Why Dragon Ball Should Have Concluded with the Cell Games

It’s Written to be the Conclusion​

Look at what happens in the end of the Cell series of sagas. Goku dies, Gohan becomes defender of the Earth, Vegeta vows to never fight again, Trunks saves his future, Krillin pursues 18, Bulma has a family and the others can relax and retire. It’s blatantly obvious that the series is being designed to end with the Cell Games after a lot of the build is geared towards Gohan unlocking his full power and becoming the great saviour of Earth. There’s also the Trunks subplot of him saving the Earth.

In the manga, the conclusion of the series is broken into 2 separate parts. The first is Trunks leaving for the future, with the final frame of Gohan, Krillin & Yamcha stood in sombre attire, wearing black armbands with huge smiles on their faces, knowing the bright future ahead. Goku’s face mirrors Gohan’s exactly. That’s pretty conclusive. The second conclusion is the fate of Trunks’ timeline. Trunks goes back and destroys the Androids, including Cell and the final lines read as follows:

“Trunks & Bulma had lived a hard life...but true peace had come at last. A peace that was to be enjoyed as long as Trunks was there to defend it”.

What those conclusions also show is...

Goku Lives On​

Yes he dies. Yes he isn’t the one who beats the big bad, but so what. Goku had helped both Gohan and Trunks learn what it means to be a hero. Both save their worlds from destruction thanks to Goku. Goku sacrifices himself to save the Earth, and then helps Gohan to victory once Cell returns. His knowledge and wisdom also assist Trunks in his final victory over Gero’s androids in the future. Goku doesn’t have to be the one who crushes the villain, especially as he does play a key role in helping the new heroes.

It’s the Perfect Enemy​

My final opening point is this; Cell is the right nemesis for the series to conclude with. Cell was designed to be the final enemy and the last big bad. It tied together all elements of the series from the Red Ribbon Army saga to the Freeza storyline and it presented them on a silver platter. Cell was a truly vicious and devious enemy, one of cunning intellect and great power, and someone who just happened to know the heroes inside out.

Cell was on a quest to become perfect, but he always was the perfect villain for Dragon Ball and was the right villain to close with. It proved as a final test for Gohan to defeat Cell, conquering great enemies of the past (Freeza, Vegeta) and his friends and family in the present (Goku, Piccolo). Cell was a final, personal villain who was designed to be the definitive villain for the series to close with.

Now I’ll take a look at some of you earlier points.

It’s like this: When you are watching a show that you like, you always get this feeling that makes you not be able to wait to see what happens next. The episodes in a sense create a high level of ambiguity – thereinby keeping you entertained and wanting to see more. Therefore, based on this, it’s only logical to think that the fact that the Buu Sagas were added into the DBZ series was an added plus for DBZ as well as its fans. Any fan of said show always wants to see more of what they are watching. And with the Buu Sagas included, the fans get the more that they seek and the show makes more money.

The Buu sagas were an unnecessary continuation of the series. While it was nice that we got to see more of the DBZ saga, I think it’s painfully obvious that Akira Toriyama had set the Cell Saga up to be the grand conclusion (I’ll get to that a little later). The Buu saga was nothing more than a cash-in for Toriyama, Toei Animation & Shonen Jump. Toei were desperate to retain the Dragon Ball franchise which they had relied on heavily. Hell just look at GT as an example of that. The Buu saga is not a creation of love, like the rest of the series, but rather a cheap cash-in for the creators, something that also affected the quality of the story.

While I’m pretty sure Akira Toriyama loved to do what he did, it should be dully noted that a good reason as to why he created Dragonball Z was for the money. After all, everything revolves around money – and if you have money, you have a great life. With Dragonball Z being as long as it was, it only allowed for Akira (and the creators of the anime version) to get that much more money.

Thus proving my earlier point.

And it was a huge success. With the addition of the Buu Sagas, it helped DBZ gain an even higher level of fans as well as conjure up various other products that made it rank in more money. Examples of this were merchandise, Video Games, Feature films, trading cards, etc etc.

I have no doubt that they exist, but I am yet to hear of a single Dragon Ball fan who began watching during the Buu saga. The accounts I’ve heard (including my own) clearly said they started watching either during the Saiyan, Freeza or Cell Sagas. Buu wasn’t this big jumping on point and for many who did jump on, it would’ve been pretty damn confusing. The Buu sagas are a terrible place to join the series as a lot of it relies on prior knowledge of the series such as Vegeta’s lust for retribution and Gohan’s hidden power.

Sure, DBZ could have still done that with only going up to the Cell Games Saga, but seeing as how you introduced new characters as well as new storylines, you have a much bigger avriety of choices in which you could make money from. If I were to compare this to the WWE, had you ended WWE programing, in say, the end of the Attitude Era, then you would have never been able to gain the product that the PG Era has brought you. Furthermore, you would never had had a John Cena – which brings me to my next main point.

But were there any great characters introduced during the Buu saga? Hercule’s character was expanded upon and we were introduced to Videl and the upper echelon of Kais as well as Buu and the surrounding villains, but, with the exception of Hercule (who was introduced during the Cell Games), none of these characters are really celebrated by the fans. I’m sure they all have fans but I rarely see a top ten list of characters that features any of the characters that were introduced in the Buu era.

Much like John Cena is the main character of the WWE, Goku is the main character in DBZ. When Dragonball (the original) began, it was all about him. It was about him and his journey (along with Bulma) to collect the Dragonballs. Once collected, Goku began to train with Krillin under the guidance of Master Roshi. It was then that Goku entered his World Martial Arts tournament and went on to battle against the Red Ribbon Army. Various other events occur to which I’m not going to adress as you should already know the story that is Goku. But my point being, DBZ revolved around Goku – Goku was the hero of the story – he was the one that always came out on top – and he was always the one that everyone looked to when in any peril.

Except that’s only partially true. The post Piccolo era of Dragon Ball began to signify a change, a change that clearly and obviously was setting up Gohan to take over from Goku. Hell it’s even in the first few episodes/chapters. Gohan is the one who severely cripples Raditz when neither Goku nor Piccolo could. Gohan’s hidden potential is showcased time & time again. If you can’t see that Gohan is being set up to be Goku’s successor then you are blind. Piccolo & Goku train the boy and both comment on how ‘now/once I’m gone you’ll be defending the Earth’. Gohan is the obvious successor and he was groomed for the role the day Akira Toriyama created him.

Having said that, when you have the main hero of the story die against a foe that was too powerful for him to handle, then you practically destroy Goku’s image as being the most powerful human in the Universe. Sure, you could argue that all he did was pass the torch to his son, but in doing so, you hurt the image that Goku had created for himself. Goku was without a doubt a larger-than-life character. But what happens when this larger than life character winds up dead. Not so larger-than-life now, huh?

How does Goku sacrificing himself hurt the image of the character? Goku is an underdog. He always has been. He goes into fights weaker than the majority of his opponents (King Piccolo, Freeza, Cell) and it was only logical that Goku would have to lose sooner or later. Cell was the right villain to do that with. Cell knew Goku and the rest of the Z Warriors very well due to his programming/cells, he knew Goku’s moves and techniques and he could counter them with ease. He was the right villain for Goku to fall to.

So what does Toriyama do? He allows Gohan to inherit the place as Earth’s saviour from Goku and lets Goku go out as a hero one last time. He allows Goku to sacrifice himself for the good of the planet. He of course later then helps Gohan to defeat Cell. Goku retains his place as Earth’s greatest hero whilst also passing it on to a younger generation. Tying the story up nicely.

That was the problem to which Dragonball Z shouldn’t have ended after the Cell Games Saga. The main hero of the story is not able to maintain his spot at the top of the food chain. In addition, Goku is unable to be viewed as the all-time single most strongest anime character in every anime series. Think about it. No matter how much you think; no matter how hard you think – you could never argue that there is any other character in the anime world that is stronger than Goku. Goku became an icon. Goku became the symbol that paved the way for so many other anime characters. Yusuke Urameshi, Ichigo Kurosaki, Naruto Uzumaki – all of these guys and many more were based on the icon that was Goku.

YuYu Hakusho debuted whilst Dragon Ball was still in the early stages of the Freeza saga. Goku had been a proven underdog by that point and wasn’t the strongest of all time either as he’d just been through hell against Vegeta sand needed the help of 3, 4 if you include King Kai, to defeat Vegeta on Earth. Both Naruto & Ichigo are based on the underdog mentality that, as I stated earlier, has been in place since Goku debuted. Goku still isn’t viewed as the strongest anime of all time anyway now. Characters like Sosuke Aizen of Bleach and Alucard of Hellsing are seen as more powerful characters these days.

 

[Minor League Brian]

I want to pipe in here and say the only thing Ichigo would have taken from Goku was the mentality. Ichigo's afraid to use his power because he feels its wrong, hence he's always "Weaker" then his opposition. Reality is Ichigo's probably the 2nd or 3rd strongest (flat out power level) character in Bleach next to Yama-gii and Unohana (or whoever the woman Captain is). He could basically out right destroy anyone but because he's insecure, he never does.

Look at the latest episodes as confirmation of that. That's not "Ichigo getting an uber power up" that's Ichigo facing his demons and accepting his power for what it is.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Look at what happens in the end of the Cell series of sagas. Goku dies, Gohan becomes defender of the Earth, Vegeta vows to never fight again, Trunks saves his future, Krillin pursues 18, Bulma has a family and the others can relax and retire. It’s blatantly obvious that the series is being designed to end with the Cell Games after a lot of the build is geared towards Gohan unlocking his full power and becoming the great saviour of Earth. There’s also the Trunks subplot of him saving the Earth.

In the manga, the conclusion of the series is broken into 2 separate parts. The first is Trunks leaving for the future, with the final frame of Gohan, Krillin & Yamcha stood in sombre attire, wearing black armbands with huge smiles on their faces, knowing the bright future ahead. Goku’s face mirrors Gohan’s exactly. That’s pretty conclusive. The second conclusion is the fate of Trunks’ timeline. Trunks goes back and destroys the Androids, including Cell and the final lines read as follows:

“Trunks & Bulma had lived a hard life...but true peace had come at last. A peace that was to be enjoyed as long as Trunks was there to defend it”.

Just because a subplot of the Dragonball series revolved around Gohan’s hidden ability does not warrant the entire show to end resulting in the unvailing of his hidden power. Since the very beginning all the way back to Dragonball, the series revolved around Goku. He was the main character of the story and the story revolved around him and his actions. Now, based on this is it not only logical for the series to end based on him? I realize you make an argument about Gohan later to which I am going to address thoroughly, but I felt the need to say this here first.

In any case, as you and I are both well aware of, the series is based on three main plots. The first being Frieza, the second being Cell, and the final being Buu. Now, just because everything that occurred in the Cell plot reaches a closure does not mean that it’s time for the series to end. All the closure tells us is that the the chapter that is Cell is over. Same with the Frieza. Just because Frieza is presumably dead and the Z-fighters come back to life does not mean that the show is warranted for an end. All it says is the chapter that is Frieza is over.

As far as Vegeta goes, do you really think that Vegeta giving up in his will to fight is a good closure for him? Vegeta? A saiyan? The prince of all saiyans does not want to fight anymore? That is blasphemy! Vegeta is a born fighter. For him to just not want to fight anymore just because Goku – his rival – is dead is pretty fucking stupid. This is not the kind of closure best suited for Vegeta. The closure that Vegeta needed is the one that is given to him in the Kid Buu Saga – and that’s when he finally admits to himself and his pride that Goku is the strongest of the two – that Goku is and will always be “Number one under the sun.” If you haven’t a clue to what I’m alluding to, rewatch the episode entitled: “Vegeta’s Respect (280).” In it, you will see why that was the best closure that Vegeta could have ever received.

Yes he dies. Yes he isn’t the one who beats the big bad, but so what. Goku had helped both Gohan and Trunks learn what it means to be a hero. Both save their worlds from destruction thanks to Goku. Goku sacrifices himself to save the Earth, and then helps Gohan to victory once Cell returns. His knowledge and wisdom also assist Trunks in his final victory over Gero’s androids in the future. Goku doesn’t have to be the one who crushes the villain, especially as he does play a key role in helping the new heroes.

I fail to see how this is supposed to make the Cell Games Saga be the better ending. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not arguing what you’re saying isn’t true. In fact, I agree that all the above did occur. However, do you realize that all the above occured regardless of the addition of the Buu Sagas? Meaning, just because they added the Buu Sagas, does not mean that any credibility the former achieved is lost. Not only does what all of you said remain intact, but you have new, exciting, compelling storylines added into the mix.

The way I see it, adding in the Buu Sagas brings no harm to what happened in the Cell Games Sagas. Gohan is still viewed as a hero; Trunks saves his own world; and best of all, Goku is is able to once again be viewed as strongest being in the universe. If anything, the addition of the Buu Sagas was a benefit to the DBZ series.

My final opening point is this; Cell is the right nemesis for the series to conclude with. Cell was designed to be the final enemy and the last big bad. It tied together all elements of the series from the Red Ribbon Army saga to the Freeza storyline and it presented them on a silver platter. Cell was a truly vicious and devious enemy, one of cunning intellect and great power, and someone who just happened to know the heroes inside out.

Cell was on a quest to become perfect, but he always was the perfect villain for Dragon Ball and was the right villain to close with. It proved as a final test for Gohan to defeat Cell, conquering great enemies of the past (Freeza, Vegeta) and his friends and family in the present (Goku, Piccolo). Cell was a final, personal villain who was designed to be the definitive villain for the series to close with.

No. Cell was an awesome villian whose purpose was to become ‘perfect’ – nothing more. Buu was just as credible in being the ‘perfect’ being to close the series as much as much as Cell was if not more so. We learned of the history of Cell – he was created with full intention to kill Goku for what he had done to the Red Ribbon Army destroy the Earth. Cell could care less about the Z-fighters; he only cared about marking himself known as the strongest being in the universe. After destroying Earth, he would go on to destroy other planets until nothing was left.

Until nothing was left. Gee, this sounds familiar. Oh wait. Didn’t Buu want to do the same thing? Buu was a being unlike no other. In Buu, there existed no good; just one goal in mind: Destruction of everything in sight. No enemy in the history of the DBZ universe could have compared to the level of evil that was Buu. Why? Because Buu was the definition of evil. Buu was the incarnation of evil. Hell, Buu was EVERYTHING evil. And when you have the embodyment of evil go up against the embodyment of good – i.e. Goku – you have the ultimate battle between good and evil.

Do you understand what I’m saying? Cell may have been A ‘perfect’ villian, but Buu was THE perfect villian. What many fail to realize about Buu is that Akira’s intentions with him was to create a monster that basically defined everything that could ever be considered as evil. Since the beginning of the series, the whole concept of the series was based on Good vs Evil. So what better way to end the series than by having the embodyment of all things evil against the embodyment of all things good? Not only do you have an ultimate showdown, but with Goku defeating Buu, you show that in any form of way, good will always prevail over evil. Therein lies the moral of the story that is Dragonball Z.

The Buu sagas were an unnecessary continuation of the series. While it was nice that we got to see more of the DBZ saga, I think it’s painfully obvious that Akira Toriyama had set the Cell Saga up to be the grand conclusion (I’ll get to that a little later). The Buu saga was nothing more than a cash-in for Toriyama, Toei Animation & Shonen Jump. Toei were desperate to retain the Dragon Ball franchise which they had relied on heavily. Hell just look at GT as an example of that. The Buu saga is not a creation of love, like the rest of the series, but rather a cheap cash-in for the creators, something that also affected the quality of the story.

C'mon, FunKay, you're better than this. If you honestly believe that the Buu Sagas were only the result of getting more money, then you are nothing more than a fool who is unwilling to look beyond the false reality that all smarks of DBZ have created. Akira loved Dragonball Z. It was his life. Just because certain factors of the Buu Saga was a bit different than that of previous sagas does not automatically conclude that they were made without “love.” All it means was that he wanted to try things a bit different.

Look at it this way: instead of repeating the same process to which he had created with Cell and Frieza thus reach stalement, Akira wanted to expirement and see what else his ‘more than 10%’ of a brain could come up with. And what did he come up with? A being that defined all things evil; the perfect closure for Vegeta; a merging of the last two surviving saiyans into one body; show that humans too can be heroes; Goku is the greates hero to have ever lived; and best of all, good will always triumph over evil.

Thus proving my earlier point.

No it doesn’t. The money was a good reason for the creation of the Buu sagas, but you cannot argue that it was the SOLE reason as to why they were created. If we go by your argument, then we’d have to conclude that EVERYTHING he created that was Dragonball was only because of the money. Furthermore, we’d be calling Akira Toriyama Vincent Kennedy McMahon.

I have no doubt that they exist, but I am yet to hear of a single Dragon Ball fan who began watching during the Buu saga. The accounts I’ve heard (including my own) clearly said they started watching either during the Saiyan, Freeza or Cell Sagas. Buu wasn’t this big jumping on point and for many who did jump on, it would’ve been pretty damn confusing. The Buu sagas are a terrible place to join the series as a lot of it relies on prior knowledge of the series such as Vegeta’s lust for retribution and Gohan’s hidden power.

Fallacy, good sir. When you have a show, you don’t automatically gain all your viewers by the time you air your pilot, you gain your viewers through: exposure of the show, spreading of the memes, and most of all, the longetivity it has.

The Simpsons show has over 400 episodes – but did they gain all their audience from the very start? Of course not. They gained the audience that they have today through the years that they’ve had. As time passes by, new people start to pick up on the show and thus become fans of it. Same with DBZ. You have your initial viewers; viewers that were picked up as time went by; and lastly, viewers that you gained by the time the Buu Sagas were out.

How do I know this? Because I am 16 – and when I first heard of Dragonball Z, I was in Mexico. And guess what was the first episode that I watched? Kid Buu fighting against Vegeta. Granted, I had no clue to what was going on, but regardless of that, I loved it. So what did that cause? It caused me to want to start from the very beginning and relive what I had missed in life. Fortunately, I had not missed much as it was bearly then that Funimation had started to make their North American releases of the show starting with the Frieza saga.

The argument that the Buu Sagas did not pick up any viewers is nothing more than a smark’s point of view to which I'm surprised you presented. While the Frieza Saga and partially the Cell Saga were a foundation of the basis of the audience that they woul undoubtedly build, it was the Buu Sagas that strengthened it’s foundation and ultimately helped DBZ reach the world-wide exposure that it received. Would the same level of world-wide exposure occur without the Buu Sagas? Probably – but only to an extent. Fact is, because DBZ was much longer, it was able to unleash that much more exposure and thus receive an even greater percentage of audience than the former.

But were there any great characters introduced during the Buu saga? Hercule’s character was expanded upon and we were introduced to Videl and the upper echelon of Kais as well as Buu and the surrounding villains, but, with the exception of Hercule (who was introduced during the Cell Games), none of these characters are really celebrated by the fans. I’m sure they all have fans but I rarely see a top ten list of characters that features any of the characters that were introduced in the Buu era.

Yea, let’s just forget about Goten and Trunks; let’s just forget about the fusions: Gotenks and Vegito; Hell, let’s just forget about Janemba and Herudegan and Gogeta. They didn’t mean anything after all. They all sucked – there was nothing worth while about them – it’s not like they ever achieved any popularity. It’s not like the fusions were something of MTFO worthy moments or anything.

Lulz that argument is full of flaws, man.

Also, for the record, you do realize that the only new characters that the Cell Sagas presented were a couple of dime-a-dozen androids, and a futuristic looking chap, right?

Except that’s only partially true. The post Piccolo era of Dragon Ball began to signify a change, a change that clearly and obviously was setting up Gohan to take over from Goku. Hell it’s even in the first few episodes/chapters. Gohan is the one who severely cripples Raditz when neither Goku nor Piccolo could. Gohan’s hidden potential is showcased time & time again. If you can’t see that Gohan is being set up to be Goku’s successor then you are blind. Piccolo & Goku train the boy and both comment on how ‘now/once I’m gone you’ll be defending the Earth’. Gohan is the obvious successor and he was groomed for the role the day Akira Toriyama created him.

It’s funny how you mention Akira Toriyama in this argument as Toriyama has gone on record saying that he felt that Gohan was not fit for the role to be the hero of the Earth. Here let me get you some proof:

With the ending of the Cell arc in manga volume 35, Son Gohan was meant to replace his father as the main protagonist; Toriyama thought that Gohan was unsuitable for that part so he avoided doing that.[4]

There you have it. While Gohan was, in a sense, to become the protector of the Earth, in the end, he felt as that wasn’t the way to go so he avoided doing that.

How does Goku sacrificing himself hurt the image of the character? Goku is an underdog. He always has been. He goes into fights weaker than the majority of his opponents (King Piccolo, Freeza, Cell) and it was only logical that Goku would have to lose sooner or later. Cell was the right villain to do that with. Cell knew Goku and the rest of the Z Warriors very well due to his programming/cells, he knew Goku’s moves and techniques and he could counter them with ease. He was the right villain for Goku to fall to.

So what does Toriyama do? He allows Gohan to inherit the place as Earth’s saviour from Goku and lets Goku go out as a hero one last time. He allows Goku to sacrifice himself for the good of the planet. He of course later then helps Gohan to defeat Cell. Goku retains his place as Earth’s greatest hero whilst also passing it on to a younger generation. Tying the story up nicely.

If you are saying that Goku’s character was soley based on being an underdog, then you haven’t the slightest clue to what Goku was really about. Here let me enlighten you with what is arguably the best quotes from DBZ of all time:

[youtube]ZB05kadeV5o&feature=player_embedded#at=91[/youtube]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Goku was a symbol. In the world of DBZ, he was symbol of all things good – he was the symbol of not only peace, but justice as well. In terms of the anime/manga world, he was a symbol that influenced the basis of many manga creators concept of their main character. Kishimoto, Kubo, Oda, and many more – all of these guys based their main characters on the symbol that was Goku.

Now with Gohan becoming the protector of the Earth, it hurt the credibility that Goku had created. Sure, he still died for the greater good, and yes he did manage to help Gohan and Trunks indirectly to sdestroy Cell, but the bottom line was that Goku was no longer the strongest hero alive – Goku’s reputation of the symbol of all that has been said is hurt. Why? Because Goku is supposed to be invincible – but when he cannot stand a chance against an enemy, what does that say for him in terms of being what we were all supposed to interpret him by?

It’s this reasoning that Gohan was unfit to be the the protector of the Earth. It’s this reason that Gohan was made weaker in the Buu Sagas. And it’s this reason why Goku is returned to being the protector of not only the Earth, but all that is good.

YuYu Hakusho debuted whilst Dragon Ball was still in the early stages of the Freeza saga. Goku had been a proven underdog by that point and wasn’t the strongest of all time either as he’d just been through hell against Vegeta sand needed the help of 3, 4 if you include King Kai, to defeat Vegeta on Earth. Both Naruto & Ichigo are based on the underdog mentality that, as I stated earlier, has been in place since Goku debuted.

While it’s true that Goku did show all his attributes from the very beginning, the Buu Sagas helped strangthen that reality so that everyone could see just how much of an icon Goku really was to the anime world. Goku was a major influence on what Yusuke Urameshi ended up being. He was an influence to what Naruto was to be; he was an influence to what Luffy would be; and he was an influence to what Ichigo would be. I’m sure there are more characters that Goku has influenced in some form of way, but these are but the most commonly known.

Goku still isn’t viewed as the strongest anime of all time anyway now

http://en.gigazine.net/index.php?/news/comments/20090302_strongest_anime_character/

http://www.anime-source.com/banzai/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=964&page=3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_Goku_(Dragon_Ball)#Reception

Oh yea?

Characters like Sosuke Aizen of Bleach and Alucard of Hellsing are seen as more powerful characters these days.

For Aizen:
http://forum.mangastream.com/showthread.php?t=8513

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100925193019AADiDey

For Alucard:
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/goku-vs-alucard-hellsing-manga-33759/2

You not only have me disagreeing with that statement but just about every other person in the entire universe. To say that Aizen and Alucard are capable of having a power-level oof over….um…SS4 Goku’s power-level is completely absurd.

On a final note, let me say that while I can see where the appeal to ending the DBZ in Cell Games Saga is, it needs to be dully noted that the Buu Sagas were an even greter ending to the DBZ series. The Buu Sagas brought more of a world-wide exposure, a capital ending, an icon that will forever be known, a great closure for the prince of all saiyans, and best of all, it helped bring an even greater legacy to what is arguably the best anime series of all time.

Could all this have been done without the addition of the Buu Sagas? Probably, but only to an extent.

Your turn, FunKay

PS. Sorry if I came out a bit agressive, I just got caught in the heat of the moment. No harm intended, my man. You've been giving me one hell of a tough debate - Thankyou.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Just because a subplot of the Dragonball series revolved around Gohan’s hidden ability does not warrant the entire show to end resulting in the unvailing of his hidden power. Since the very beginning all the way back to Dragonball, the series revolved around Goku. He was the main character of the story and the story revolved around him and his actions. Now, based on this is it not only logical for the series to end based on him? I realize you make an argument about Gohan later to which I am going to address thoroughly, but I felt the need to say this here first..

You and I both know that Gohan was groomed from day 1 to be Goku’s successor. It was totally and utterly fitting to have Goku go out, helping his son defeat the final evil. It allowed the audience to get a sense of closure. Instead we get Goku helping to train the re-incarnated villain, leading to the disappointment of the series ending with the potential for more adventures (which then led to the incredibly disappointing GT).

In any case, as you and I are both well aware of, the series is based on three main plots. The first being Frieza, the second being Cell, and the final being Buu. Now, just because everything that occurred in the Cell plot reaches a closure does not mean that it’s time for the series to end. All the closure tells us is that the the chapter that is Cell is over. Same with the Frieza. Just because Frieza is presumably dead and the Z-fighters come back to life does not mean that the show is warranted for an end. All it says is the chapter that is Frieza is over.

Like I said before, each character gets closure, something which doesn’t happen at the end of Freeza. At the conclusion of Freeza, things are very much left up in the air, when it comes to Cell, the series has conclusions for each character. Each and every character from those in Dragon Ball to DBZ are all still relevant and are written well. When it comes to Buu, characters like Yamcha, Tien and even Gohan are poorly written for the sake of the plot continuing.

As far as Vegeta goes, do you really think that Vegeta giving up in his will to fight is a good closure for him? Vegeta? A saiyan? The prince of all saiyans does not want to fight anymore? That is blasphemy! Vegeta is a born fighter. For him to just not want to fight anymore just because Goku – his rival – is dead is pretty fucking stupid. This is not the kind of closure best suited for Vegeta. The closure that Vegeta needed is the one that is given to him in the Kid Buu Saga – and that’s when he finally admits to himself and his pride that Goku is the strongest of the two – that Goku is and will always be “Number one under the sun.” If you haven’t a clue to what I’m alluding to, rewatch the episode entitled: “Vegeta’s Respect (280).” In it, you will see why that was the best closure that Vegeta could have ever received.

This we can agree on. Vegeta’s conclusion was unsatisfactory in Cell. At the same time his arc’s conclusion in Buu is pretty hit/miss. The way it starts off is great with Vegeta giving into his inner evil BUT the way it ends up, with him simply conceding that he’s weaker to Goku is a BIG letdown. He couldn’t admit that he was weaker after losing to Goku (which, even as a Vegeta fanboy, should have happened)? No he has to do it by watching Goku. That’s very, very weak.

I fail to see how this is supposed to make the Cell Games Saga be the better ending. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not arguing what you’re saying isn’t true. In fact, I agree that all the above did occur. However, do you realize that all the above occured regardless of the addition of the Buu Sagas? Meaning, just because they added the Buu Sagas, does not mean that any credibility the former achieved is lost. Not only does what all of you said remain intact, but you have new, exciting, compelling storylines added into the mix.

Except there was no mystery when it came to Buu. With Cell there was a very real threat of the Z Warriors losing due to Goku’s death, when it comes to Buu, while there is still the sense of danger, there really isn’t any doubt in your mind when it comes to the final result.

The way I see it, adding in the Buu Sagas brings no harm to what happened in the Cell Games Sagas. Gohan is still viewed as a hero; Trunks saves his own world; and best of all, Goku is is able to once again be viewed as strongest being in the universe. If anything, the addition of the Buu Sagas was a benefit to the DBZ series.

Except in the fans eyes, Gohan’s character was totally bastardised just for the sake of continuing the plot. All that build that went into Gohan’s character is horribly damaged thanks to Toriyama’s delusion of having Goku be the final hero. I’ll talk about this more later on in this response.

No. Cell was an awesome villian whose purpose was to become ‘perfect’ – nothing more. Buu was just as credible in being the ‘perfect’ being to close the series as much as much as Cell was if not more so. We learned of the history of Cell – he was created with full intention to kill Goku for what he had done to the Red Ribbon Army destroy the Earth. Cell could care less about the Z-fighters; he only cared about marking himself known as the strongest being in the universe. After destroying Earth, he would go on to destroy other planets until nothing was left.

That’s why Cell is the best villain to conclude with. He represents both the early part of the series and the latter part, concluding the series by defeating an enemy nearly as old as the series itself. Cell represents the hatred of Gero, a man who wants to destroy Goku and that’s why it’s fitting to have Goku die in the end. It helps build tension and at the same time, with Goku assisting Gohan, it allows Goku to be a part of the final victory.

Until nothing was left. Gee, this sounds familiar. Oh wait. Didn’t Buu want to do the same thing? Buu was a being unlike no other. In Buu, there existed no good; just one goal in mind: Destruction of everything in sight. No enemy in the history of the DBZ universe could have compared to the level of evil that was Buu. Why? Because Buu was the definition of evil. Buu was the incarnation of evil. Hell, Buu was EVERYTHING evil. And when you have the embodyment of evil go up against the embodyment of good – i.e. Goku – you have the ultimate battle between good and evil.

So let me get this straight your suggesting that Cell, an evil being whose sole goal in his life was the become the perfect being, and was hell bent on killing whoever and whatever stood in his way, and never showed a shred of mercy to anyone, without gaining something, isn’t pure evil. The guy who brutally murdered Android #16 and hundreds of others, eating them alive, and was hell bent on a narcissistic goal of finding a warrior strong enough oppose him wasn’t pure evil? Yeah seems like a real pleasant guy.

Do you understand what I’m saying? Cell may have been A ‘perfect’ villian, but Buu was THE perfect villian. What many fail to realize about Buu is that Akira’s intentions with him was to create a monster that basically defined everything that could ever be considered as evil. Since the beginning of the series, the whole concept of the series was based on Good vs Evil. So what better way to end the series than by having the embodyment of all things evil against the embodyment of all things good? Not only do you have an ultimate showdown, but with Goku defeating Buu, you show that in any form of way, good will always prevail over evil. Therein lies the moral of the story that is Dragonball Z.

Buu was never the perfect villain. This stuff about him being pure evil is a terrible argument. Buu was never pure evil until the brief Kid Buu saga. There was always a redeeming quality to the character because of his absorption of the Kai’s and his friendship with Hercule. Kid Buu was the only one who was pure evil and by the time he comes around, Cell (& to a lesser extent Freeza) has already done the whole pure evil shtick.

C'mon, FunKay, you're better than this. If you honestly believe that the Buu Sagas were only the result of getting more money, then you are nothing more than a fool who is unwilling to look beyond the false reality that all smarks of DBZ have created. Akira loved Dragonball Z. It was his life. Just because certain factors of the Buu Saga was a bit different than that of previous sagas does not automatically conclude that they were made without “love.” All it means was that he wanted to try things a bit different.

Clearly it wasn’t just about getting more money, but Toriyama had wished the end Dragon Ball back with Freeza, let alone Cell. Toriyama was well aware of this and that’s why Dragon Ball Z exists, because it’s designed to mark a change, as Goku and his friends headed towards their final fates. Freeza was supposed to be the conclusion initially, but then it was changed to Cell which is by many considered the strongest part of the series. Toriyama wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, having Goku die and Gohan become the Earth’s new defender. Instead he got roped into doing Buu for Shonen (Dragon Ball was there biggest title by a mile) and Toei, who had great ratings from DBZ.

Look at it this way: instead of repeating the same process to which he had created with Cell and Frieza thus reach stalement, Akira wanted to expirement and see what else his ‘more than 10%’ of a brain could come up with. And what did he come up with? A being that defined all things evil; the perfect closure for Vegeta; a merging of the last two surviving saiyans into one body; show that humans too can be heroes; Goku is the greates hero to have ever lived; and best of all, good will always triumph over evil.

Cell and Freeza are far more complicated than Buu, and Toriyama had managed to achieve all of what you stated above (minus Vegeta, which I agreed with you earlier on and the fusion thing which I’ll talk about a little later) during the Cell conclusion:

• Hercule saves the day by throwing 16’s head into the ring
• Goku was still the greatest hero of all, even with his death
• Good triumphed over evil at the conclusion of Cell

Vegeta & Goku’s fusion wasn’t permanent and wasn’t exactly a mind blowing idea either.

No it doesn’t. The money was a good reason for the creation of the Buu sagas, but you cannot argue that it was the SOLE reason as to why they were created. If we go by your argument, then we’d have to conclude that EVERYTHING he created that was Dragonball was only because of the money. Furthermore, we’d be calling Akira Toriyama Vincent Kennedy McMahon.

I’ve cleared this up a little earlier. I’m sure Vince is in the wrestling industry for more than money, but that’s a separate topic.

Fallacy, good sir. When you have a show, you don’t automatically gain all your viewers by the time you air your pilot, you gain your viewers through: exposure of the show, spreading of the memes, and most of all, the longetivity it has.

I never said that they had to start from the pilot. Buu is simply a bad jumping on point, that would confuse a lot of people due to the continuity of the series.

The Simpsons show has over 400 episodes – but did they gain all their audience from the very start? Of course not. They gained the audience that they have today through the years that they’ve had. As time passes by, new people start to pick up on the show and thus become fans of it. Same with DBZ. You have your initial viewers; viewers that were picked up as time went by; and lastly, viewers that you gained by the time the Buu Sagas were out.

The Simpsons is a terrible example. They’re story isn’t one long plot and they very rarely continue a plot into another episode. Prior knowledge of the series isn’t necessary where as with the Buu saga in DBZ, it is if you wish to understand it.

How do I know this? Because I am 16 – and when I first heard of Dragonball Z, I was in Mexico. And guess what was the first episode that I watched? Kid Buu fighting against Vegeta. Granted, I had no clue to what was going on, but regardless of that, I loved it. So what did that cause? It caused me to want to start from the very beginning and relive what I had missed in life. Fortunately, I had not missed much as it was bearly then that Funimation had started to make their North American releases of the show starting with the Frieza saga.

Like I said, it’s not a great jumping on point. I never said it wasn’t able to intrigue people but did you continue to watch the series from the Buu saga? Not from what you’ve just said.

The argument that the Buu Sagas did not pick up any viewers is nothing more than a smark’s point of view to which I'm surprised you presented. While the Frieza Saga and partially the Cell Saga were a foundation of the basis of the audience that they woul undoubtedly build, it was the Buu Sagas that strengthened it’s foundation and ultimately helped DBZ reach the world-wide exposure that it received. Would the same level of world-wide exposure occur without the Buu Sagas? Probably – but only to an extent. Fact is, because DBZ was much longer, it was able to unleash that much more exposure and thus receive an even greater percentage of audience than the former.

I never said it didn’t pick up any viewers, what I said was that it was a poor place to jump on, something you yourself helped me establish by saying you went back to watch the series to understand the point where you jumped on.

Yea, let’s just forget about Goten and Trunks; let’s just forget about the fusions: Gotenks and Vegito; Hell, let’s just forget about Janemba and Herudegan and Gogeta. They didn’t mean anything after all. They all sucked – there was nothing worth while about them – it’s not like they ever achieved any popularity. It’s not like the fusions were something of MTFO worthy moments or anything.

Goten: Kid Goku all over again. If I wanted to see him I would just watch Dragon Ball
Trunks: Already in the series by Cell as both a baby & a teen.

These two also grew to become tiresome as the series wore on. They were entertaining for awhile but by the time Super Buu had absorbed them, I was quite relived. Gotenks also falls into that category.

Vegito: Seriously? Your claiming that this fusion, which was very brief is a great character? What did he do bar kick Super Buu’s ass? Nothing. Was he entertaining? Yes. Was he brief and never mentioned again? You bet your bottom dollar he was.

Janemba, Herudegan, Gogeta: They’re movie characters and your simply bringing them in here to strengthen your argument. They all could’ve existed without the use of the Buu saga.

Also, for the record, you do realize that the only new characters that the Cell Sagas presented were a couple of dime-a-dozen androids, and a futuristic looking chap, right?

Androids 16-20: Included a major part of the Red Ribbon army, a character who would help bring an extra dimension to Krillin, the character who got Gohan to go past the breaking point and a couple of others.

Future Trunks: Was the flip said to the present day Gohan, wanted to fight as it was his only means of ending the horror his future had become.

King Cold: Added more to the back story of Freeza, and served as a measuring stick for Future Trunks to prove his power.

Hercule: The single funniest character in the latter stages of the series. Possibly the greatest thing about the Buu series and got huge laughs during his interactions with Cell.

Cell: The best villain in the series and the combination of the series protagonists. I’ve already talked about him in length.

And if we’re going by your logic of using fusion to create new characters:

The Nameless Namekian: Piccolo & Kami’s fusion, giving Piccolo a new lease of life and an added dimension.

It’s funny how you mention Akira Toriyama in this argument as Toriyama has gone on record saying that he felt that Gohan was not fit for the role to be the hero of the Earth. Here let me get you some proof:
There you have it. While Gohan was, in a sense, to become the protector of the Earth, in the end, he felt as that wasn’t the way to go so he avoided doing that.

Because the creator is always right? That’s naïve and you know it. Just because Toriyama didn’t want to give Gohan the mantle as the final villain doesn’t make it the right decision. Point in case: Stan Lee wanted Peter Parker & Gwen Stacy to get married in the Amazing Spider-Man comics, but left before he could follow through. It took the considerably younger Gerry Conway (aged 19) to see that Gwen’s character was stale and useless by this point and killed her off.

If you are saying that Goku’s character was soley based on being an underdog, then you haven’t the slightest clue to what Goku was really about. Here let me enlighten you with what is arguably the best quotes from DBZ of all time:

Great quote? Oh hell yes. But let’s not beat around the bush. Goku came into that fight as the underdog and yeah, he did leave as the strongest in the universe, but deep down, Goku knew that wasn’t going to be it. He knew at the very least that Freeza was coming back with his father and his hordes of minions. Goku was well aware that his back was against the wall when it came to fighting a galactic empire. For more information, see a little known Sci-Fi series known as Star Wars and it’s main protagonist Luke Skywalker.

Oh and as for this Goku is solely an underdog thing, he isn’t, but that is one of his main traits.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Goku was a symbol. In the world of DBZ, he was symbol of all things good – he was the symbol of not only peace, but justice as well. In terms of the anime/manga world, he was a symbol that influenced the basis of many manga creators concept of their main character. Kishimoto, Kubo, Oda, and many more – all of these guys based their main characters on the symbol that was Goku.

Goku was indeed a source of inspiration for all these characters, but he isn’t the only one. Take Ichigo for example. Goku’s attitude towards villains is very apparent in Ichigo, but what’s far more apparent is the fact that the character is largely based on Yusuke Urameshi of YuYu Hakusho. Hell that whole initial arc in Bleach is based off of the YuYu story. Goku was a good foundation, for several characters, but he can’t be the only one, otherwise your writing a new series with Goku as your hero.

Now with Gohan becoming the protector of the Earth, it hurt the credibility that Goku had created. Sure, he still died for the greater good, and yes he did manage to help Gohan and Trunks indirectly to sdestroy Cell, but the bottom line was that Goku was no longer the strongest hero alive – Goku’s reputation of the symbol of all that has been said is hurt. Why? Because Goku is supposed to be invincible – but when he cannot stand a chance against an enemy, what does that say for him in terms of being what we were all supposed to interpret him by?

The fans knew Goku wasn’t invincible a long time before Cell. He does die before, remember? It takes him and Piccolo to defeat Raditz, where he dies. He gets his ass kicked badly by Vegeta to the point where it takes Gohan, Krillin & Yajirobe to help a crippled Goku defeat him. He gets soundly pounded by Freeza before he turns Super Saiyan. Hell he even succumbs to heart failure in Future Trunks’ timeline, something that would’ve happened in the regular too if not for Trunks’ journey to the past. So that argument is crap.

It’s this reasoning that Gohan was unfit to be the the protector of the Earth. It’s this reason that Gohan was made weaker in the Buu Sagas. And it’s this reason why Goku is returned to being the protector of not only the Earth, but all that is good.

No it’s because Toriyama changed his mind and wanted Goku to finish as the hero, which in my opinion was a bad move, but to each his own.

While it’s true that Goku did show all his attributes from the very beginning, the Buu Sagas helped strangthen that reality so that everyone could see just how much of an icon Goku really was to the anime world. Goku was a major influence on what Yusuke Urameshi ended up being. He was an influence to what Naruto was to be; he was an influence to what Luffy would be; and he was an influence to what Ichigo would be. I’m sure there are more characters that Goku has influenced in some form of way, but these are but the most commonly known.

As I said earlieir, these characters did take influences from elsewhere. There’s a reason why Goku’s called the Superman of manga y’know

http://en.gigazine.net/index.php?/ne...ime_character/

http://www.anime-source.com/banzai/m...pid=964&page=3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_Gok...all)#Reception

Oh yea?

So let me get this straight, you’re using Wikipedia, an internet forum with the voting based on FAVOURITE character, not strongest and a list that is clearly a pile of manure seeing as it features Gohan on the list, and not Kid Buu, who was proven to be far stronger by the end of the series. Good job.

You not only have me disagreeing with that statement but just about every other person in the entire universe. To say that Aizen and Alucard are capable of having a power-level oof over….um…SS4 Goku’s power-level is completely absurd.

Funny I thought this debate was about DBZ, not GT. Your Super Saiyan 4 argument is thus null & void. But let’s say you put down Super Saiyan 3 instead. How pray tell would Goku beat Alucard? A creature whose powers are on par with Goku’s, and simply cannot be beaten by trying to rip, burn or freeze his body? Or Aizen for example, someone who can hypnotise Goku. Aizen is a very underrated character (see last year’s Battle Tournament that Echelon held) who has powers far beyond that of many others.

On a final note, let me say that while I can see where the appeal to ending the DBZ in Cell Games Saga is, it needs to be dully noted that the Buu Sagas were an even greter ending to the DBZ series. The Buu Sagas brought more of a world-wide exposure, a capital ending, an icon that will forever be known, a great closure for the prince of all saiyans, and best of all, it helped bring an even greater legacy to what is arguably the best anime series of all time.

Could all this have been done without the addition of the Buu Sagas? Probably, but only to an extent.

Except Goku was already a God in Japan well before Buu. Toriyama had already succeeded in turning Goku into a legend all across Japan, Buu wasn’t needed to do that, and you yourself have stated that all you listed above was accomplishable.

That took forever to write (Something close to an hour and a half) but it was fun. I also apologise if I came across as a bit aggressive. I suggest we put up final arguments on Thursday, but before then let’s continue to do battle.

 

[lenguy]

Okay I want in on this

You and I both know that Gohan was groomed from day 1 to be Goku’s successor. It was totally and utterly fitting to have Goku go out, helping his son defeat the final evil. It allowed the audience to get a sense of closure. Instead we get Goku helping to train the re-incarnated villain, leading to the disappointment of the series ending with the potential for more adventures (which then led to the incredibly disappointing GT).

I'll admit the ending to the cell games in some ways felt more of a fit of an conclusion to the series. But for me it would of been very unsatisfactory. Gohan simply was not fit for the Role as protector of the earth. Did you no hear his speech to cell before cell unleashed the cell Jrs? He does not like to fight, how can you have a protector of earth who doesn't like to fight? Makes no sense to me. As a fan of the series I would be utterly steamed if that was the ending. I mean the main hero,Goku..the character we have known and loved from the very beginning of the series just dies? and thats it? I'm sorry but thats a blow to all us DBZ fans.

Like I said before, each character gets closure, something which doesn’t happen at the end of Freeza. At the conclusion of Freeza, things are very much left up in the air, when it comes to Cell, the series has conclusions for each character. Each and every character from those in Dragon Ball to DBZ are all still relevant and are written well. When it comes to Buu, characters like Yamcha, Tien and even Gohan are poorly written for the sake of the plot continuing.

Disagree. Now in all logic..what chance would Yamcha and Tien really have against buu? What difference would they honestly make? Even during the Cell games they could barely defend themselves against the Cell Jr's. Buu would slaughter them because they just arin't on par with the powers of a saiyan. A human can only be pushed so far were as a saiyan seems to have very little limits. As far as gohan is concerned I think the way he was written was very logical. I only makes sense that with out gokus influence on his son that Chi Chis influence on him would be that much greater thus throughout those 7 years of peace it only makes sense he would of slacked in his training in order to purse an education like Chi Chi had always intended. There had always been a dispute between the two on whether or not gohan should be a scholar or a fighter. With Goku out of the way guess who wins that dispute? So it only is logical that he would become less weaker than the other characters since in that time thats all Goku and Vegeta had been doing, training. While Gohan had his nose stuck in the books. This is also the same reason as to why he was so weak in GT.

This we can agree on. Vegeta’s conclusion was unsatisfactory in Cell. At the same time his arc’s conclusion in Buu is pretty hit/miss. The way it starts off is great with Vegeta giving into his inner evil BUT the way it ends up, with him simply conceding that he’s weaker to Goku is a BIG letdown. He couldn’t admit that he was weaker after losing to Goku (which, even as a Vegeta fanboy, should have happened)? No he has to do it by watching Goku. That’s very, very weak.

I find it very appropriate seeing as how throughout the whole series, Vegetas goal was to surpass Goku. That was Vegetas main motive throughout the entire series. Vegeta could never understand why Goku was always once step ahead of him at every turn. Theres many episodes where vegeta goes into a deep dialog about his frustrations and inability to pass Goku. During the fight with Buu it only makes perfect sense that vegeta comes to his sense and realizes that no matter what, goku is and always will be better. Plus its interesting to point out that towards the end Vegeta and Goku become rather close and they finally seem to connect with one another after the fusion. As far as I'm concerned this was needed between the two characters. Two Rivals,once bitter enemies, become the closest of friends. This conclusion would have never of happened at the end of the cell sagas.

Except there was no mystery when it came to Buu. With Cell there was a very real threat of the Z Warriors losing due to Goku’s death, when it comes to Buu, while there is still the sense of danger, there really isn’t any doubt in your mind when it comes to the final result.

and the same can't be said about cell? Like they would have ended the series with cell coming out on top. Goku can't be there to save everyones ass all the time. He makes this point clear during the Buu saga.

Except in the fans eyes, Gohan’s character was totally bastardised just for the sake of continuing the plot. All that build that went into Gohan’s character is horribly damaged thanks to Toriyama’s delusion of having Goku be the final hero. I’ll talk about this more later on in this response.

I make a point in clear Gohans character up already. The reason Why Goku be the final hero is because hes Goku, the main character. hes been the hero throughout the series. It wouldn't make any sense to have somebody come in. Its like having superman come in and kill the joker instead of batman, it just doesn't make sense. The reason for this is because Toriyama received an overwhelmingly positive reception for Goku's character, people wanted to see more of Goku, not so much Gohan.

So let me get this straight your suggesting that Cell, an evil being whose sole goal in his life was the become the perfect being, and was hell bent on killing whoever and whatever stood in his way, and never showed a shred of mercy to anyone, without gaining something, isn’t pure evil. The guy who brutally murdered Android #16 and hundreds of others, eating them alive, and was hell bent on a narcissistic goal of finding a warrior strong enough oppose him wasn’t pure evil? Yeah seems like a real pleasant guy.

Cell didn't really do much. He absorbed some people sure, destroyed an army and vaporized some islands. Buu killed off the entire human race, destroyed the planet and killed most of the Z fighters.Hell, Freiza did more than Cell.Cell was evil, theres no arguing that but Buu was so much more eviler(if thats even a word lol)

Buu was never the perfect villain. This stuff about him being pure evil is a terrible argument. Buu was never pure evil until the brief Kid Buu saga. There was always a redeeming quality to the character because of his absorption of the Kai’s and his friendship with Hercule. Kid Buu was the only one who was pure evil and by the time he comes around, Cell (& to a lesser extent Freeza) has already done the whole pure evil shtick.

Correction, fat Buu wasn't pure evil. Every Buu incarnation after that was pretty much pure evil. Kid Buu being the most evil(hmm maybe evil buu) Fat Buu was really the only one who wasn't strictly pure evil. Because of all the Kais he had absorbed along the way.

Clearly it wasn’t just about getting more money, but Toriyama had wished the end Dragon Ball back with Freeza, let alone Cell. Toriyama was well aware of this and that’s why Dragon Ball Z exists, because it’s designed to mark a change, as Goku and his friends headed towards their final fates. Freeza was supposed to be the conclusion initially, but then it was changed to Cell which is by many considered the strongest part of the series. Toriyama wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, having Goku die and Gohan become the Earth’s new defender. Instead he got roped into doing Buu for Shonen (Dragon Ball was there biggest title by a mile) and Toei, who had great ratings from DBZ.

I actually never cared to much for the Cell Saga. While there was a lot of great backstory. I found Cell to bland and he procrastinated way to often. The Buu Saga was in place long before the anime you know this right? I think he did it because he loved doing it and wanted to give the fans more DBZ because they ate it up. Without the buu saga. We would have never of got to see Goten and Trunks. As we both know, trunks was born just before the events of the android saga. Why give birth to him when he did if there essentially not going to do anything with him later on and explore the younger trunks? both plat vital roles in the Buu Saga, which was a pleasant watch.

Cell and Freeza are far more complicated than Buu, and Toriyama had managed to achieve all of what you stated above (minus Vegeta, which I agreed with you earlier on and the fusion thing which I’ll talk about a little later) during the Cell conclusion:

Thats the beauty of Buus character, hes so simply and its quite effective. Would you rather another villain who blabs on and on about world domination.

• Hercule saves the day by throwing 16’s head into the ring
• Goku was still the greatest hero of all, even with his death
• Good triumphed over evil at the conclusion of Cell

• 
  
  Pretty much the conclusion to every saga no?
  
  

  Vegeta & Goku’s fusion wasn’t permanent and wasn’t exactly a mind blowing idea either.

  Why not? I thought it was amazing. Vegito is regarded as the strongest character in the entire Anime(if you exclude GT) Toriyama Had to find new ways to beef up his warriors as they simply weren't strong enough to take on Buu individually.
  
  

  I never said that they had to start from the pilot. Buu is simply a bad jumping on point, that would confuse a lot of people due to the continuity of the series.

  The end of a series is always a bad place to start watching in terms of story. If you like what you see though whats not to stop you from going out and watching the entire thing from the beginning?
  
  

  Goten: Kid Goku all over again. If I wanted to see him I would just watch Dragon Ball

  
  Not entirely, Goten was more of a chicken shit at some points. Goku was brave and strong and took on any opponent head on. The only similarities between the two is that they both seem innocent.
  

  Trunks: Already in the series by Cell as both a baby & a teen.

  
  But both are different, personality wise. Adult trunks was more cautious in his approach and willing to do things logically. Younger trunks was more stuck up and arrogant just like his father. Its like watching two different characters if you ask me. Whats wrong with wanting to explore the younger version of trunks since we got to know the adult version so well?
  
  

  These two also grew to become tiresome as the series wore on. They were entertaining for awhile but by the time Super Buu had absorbed them, I was quite relived. Gotenks also falls into that category.

  
  I'll admit I never like Gotenks so much, I found him rather annoying. But I enjoyed the antics of the two individual Saiyan children.
  
  

  Vegito: Seriously? Your claiming that this fusion, which was very brief is a great character? What did he do bar kick Super Buu’s ass? Nothing. Was he entertaining? Yes. Was he brief and never mentioned again? You bet your bottom dollar he was.

  
  Vegito was awesome. The incredible fighting candy was hilarious. If anything Gojetas much worse. He makes an appearance for what? 30 seconds? (in DBZ that is)
  
  

  Janemba, Herudegan, Gogeta: They’re movie characters and your simply bringing them in here to strengthen your argument. They all could’ve existed without the use of the Buu saga.

  
  Omg, Janemba need a mini saga. He was so badass.
  
  

  Hercule: The single funniest character in the latter stages of the series. Possibly the greatest thing about the Buu series and got huge laughs during his interactions with Cell.

  
  Hercule was irritating beyond measure. How could anybody enjoy that character?
  
  

  The Nameless Namekian: Piccolo & Kami’s fusion, giving Piccolo a new lease of life and an added dimension.

  
  Difference is the other fusions created one entirely new character. The Namekian fusion really only provided Piccolo with new power. He was for the most part the same Piccolo.
  
  
  
  

  The fans knew Goku wasn’t invincible a long time before Cell. He does die before, remember? It takes him and Piccolo to defeat Raditz, where he dies. He gets his ass kicked badly by Vegeta to the point where it takes Gohan, Krillin & Yajirobe to help a crippled Goku defeat him. He gets soundly pounded by Freeza before he turns Super Saiyan. Hell he even succumbs to heart failure in Future Trunks’ timeline, something that would’ve happened in the regular too if not for Trunks’ journey to the past. So that argument is crap.

  
  As a whole. At the very end of the series though there is without a doubt Goku is the strongest. However if you take different gokus from different time frames then you could present a sound argument that goku during such and such saga was not as powerful as whoever. The argument is sound if you know how to present it.
  
  
  

  No it’s because Toriyama changed his mind and wanted Goku to finish as the hero, which in my opinion was a bad move, but to each his own.

  
  Its logical. The decision to make Gohan the main character was the bad movie, thus the reason why it never happened. Goku is and always will be the main character of the series. There are things about Gohan that prevent him from becoming a good hero. Goku had all the traits of a hero, gohan did not.
  
  

  Funny I thought this debate was about DBZ, not GT. Your Super Saiyan 4 argument is thus null & void. But let’s say you put down Super Saiyan 3 instead. How pray tell would Goku beat Alucard? A creature whose powers are on par with Goku’s, and simply cannot be beaten by trying to rip, burn or freeze his body? Or Aizen for example, someone who can hypnotise Goku. Aizen is a very underrated character (see last year’s Battle Tournament that Echelon held) who has powers far beyond that of many others.

  
  
  HA!...Really? on par with Goku at SSJ3? Somebody who needs a gun huh..did you not see what raditz did in episode one to the farmer and his gun? Just imagine what Goku at SSJ3 is capable of..in the anime word, goku is the strongest. As for Aizen how about I present this, Buu comes along and absorbs Aizen...then what? Babidi had special powers to...a lot of good that did huh. Even against Piccolo. In terms of pure strength and power, Goku is the victor.
  
  
  Sorry if this was between you two but there were points I just didn't agree with an had to intervene.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

You and I both know that Gohan was groomed from day 1 to be Goku’s successor. It was totally and utterly fitting to have Goku go out, helping his son defeat the final evil. It allowed the audience to get a sense of closure. Instead we get Goku helping to train the re-incarnated villain, leading to the disappointment of the series ending with the potential for more adventures (which then led to the incredibly disappointing GT).

While I will note that DBGT in itself was a disappointment, what many fail to realize is that it was oly a disappointment in terms of what happened to its characters. The storylines, the ending, the concept – all of that was entertaining. The fact that the general meme of GT is that it was a shear disappointment is stupid. Gt accomplished what it needed to do and give the series a grand ending.

‘That said, the ending that was given in the Dragonball Z was also a grand ending much to the disbelief of many fans out there. What the ending in the Buu Sagas accomplished was an ambiguous conclusion in which it leaves the audience with a sense of wonder – asense that makes them wonder: “So Goku will forever be the protector of Earth – Goku is number one under the sun – and he will continue his life-long journey in wanting to fight.” -> This is what the conclusion of DBZ tells us.

The fact is, many Dragonball Z fans are too ignorant to see the truth behind Akira’s intentions – they only care of what is in front of them – they don’t want to think – they just want to see action. But when they finally are able to see behind their false-based reality, they will see the ending for DBZ as it was was a fine ending.

Like I said before, each character gets closure, something which doesn’t happen at the end of Freeza. At the conclusion of Freeza, things are very much left up in the air, when it comes to Cell, the series has conclusions for each character. Each and every character from those in Dragon Ball to DBZ are all still relevant and are written well. When it comes to Buu, characters like Yamcha, Tien and even Gohan are poorly written for the sake of the plot continuing.

Please. Yamcha and Tien had lost relevance since the day Frieza was destroyed. By then, it was known that Tien and Yamcha would never amount to anything and anything that they did from that point on would be insignificant. So the fact that you’re pointing out that they’re irrelevant in the Buu’s is in itself moot. As far as Gohan goes, what the hell are you blabbering about? Gohan ended on a high note as arguably the second strongest on Earth. Gohan was able to unlock even more hidden powers as a result of the Elder Kai and thus, gain a shit load of respect.

This we can agree on. Vegeta’s conclusion was unsatisfactory in Cell. At the same time his arc’s conclusion in Buu is pretty hit/miss. The way it starts off is great with Vegeta giving into his inner evil BUT the way it ends up, with him simply conceding that he’s weaker to Goku is a BIG letdown. He couldn’t admit that he was weaker after losing to Goku (which, even as a Vegeta fanboy, should have happened)? No he has to do it by watching Goku. That’s very, very weak.

What the? What the fuck kind of bullshit is this? Vegeta was full of pride – in any circumstance he would never admit that Goku was stronger than him. So what does this scenario beg for? For Vegeta to one day finally admit that after all his blindness, he can finally admit to both his pride and his well-being that Goku is in fact better than him. And how is this the perfect way to address this? By witnessing the gap in their powers as Goku takes on the strongest, most evil being in the Universe.

The closure Vegeta received in the Buus was perfect. Quit hiding in the realm of false Vegeta-markdom illusions.

Except there was no mystery when it came to Buu. With Cell there was a very real threat of the Z Warriors losing due to Goku’s death, when it comes to Buu, while there is still the sense of danger, there really isn’t any doubt in your mind when it comes to the final result.

Uh, que? While it’s true the thing about Cell was that it was a mystery on it’s own – as the story had me baffled for quite a long time; however, to say that the ending for the Buu Sagas was predictable and not-as-dangerous is unbelievably ignorant. For starters, one will always have the sense that the good guy will come out on top – the only question is HOW will the good guy come out on top. Secondly, the Buu’s ending was just as big as surprise as it was for the Cell. With the Buu, you have two warriors that fail incomparison to the almighty power of the evil Buu. So what do you do? You shit your pants and try to think of a way to beat this evil monster. And what better way to defeat the monster with the most strongest, ultimate attack in the entire universe, the Spirit Bomb – a spirit Bomb that consists of energy of that of ALL the people of the Earth.

Let’s see…trying to build the most ultimate attack against the ultimate form of Evil with the consensus that people are unwilling to give their energy due to fear that they have no clue who they are giving it away to. Gee, tension, frustration, anxiety – these are all emotions that one would give as a result of such occurrences. Seems like a worth-while climax to the story to me.

That’s why Cell is the best villain to conclude with. He represents both the early part of the series and the latter part, concluding the series by defeating an enemy nearly as old as the series itself. Cell represents the hatred of Gero, a man who wants to destroy Goku and that’s why it’s fitting to have Goku die in the end. It helps build tension and at the same time, with Goku assisting Gohan, it allows Goku to be a part of the final victory.

Wait-wait. Let me get this straight. You’re saying that: 1) Gero’s evil was paased on to Cell (when really, Cell never had any intention to kill the Goku nor the Z-fighters as he was more contempt with destroying the Earth); 2) Because Gero wants Goku to die, that warrants Goku’s death; and 3) Gohan is more deservant of being the one to destroy Cell – an enemy that was to be indirectly (as proclaimed by you) the hate of Gero. -> I’m sorry but this is just flawed to no end.

The final battle between Cell and Gohan was fantastic – I’ll give you that. But the ending presented in the Buu Saga – the embodiment of evil vs. the embodiment of good is by far a more qualified ending for the series.

So let me get this straight your suggesting that Cell, an evil being whose sole goal in his life was the become the perfect being, and was hell bent on killing whoever and whatever stood in his way, and never showed a shred of mercy to anyone, without gaining something, isn’t pure evil. The guy who brutally murdered Android #16 and hundreds of others, eating them alive, and was hell bent on a narcissistic goal of finding a warrior strong enough oppose him wasn’t pure evil? Yeah seems like a real pleasant guy.

Never showed mercy to anyone? So then I gues the “mercy” that he showed to Krillin, Trunks, and Vegeta doesn’t count, right? When he could have easily destroyed them – instead he decides to spare them so that they can become his messenger boys so that they can promote his tournament for him. Yea, “pure” evil indeed.

No. Pure evil was what Kid Buu was. Kid Buu could give two shits about anything other than one thing: destruction of everything. THAT is pure evil; when you are void of emotion – THAT is pure evil; when you are void of any human traits – THAT is pure evil; when you are void of anything that involves procrastination, and you only have the word “kill” on your mind – THAT is pure evil.

Buu was the embodiment of pure evil. Sure, Cell was evil as well, but comparing the level of evil that Buu was to the level that Cell was, Kid Buu wins by miles and miles Thus, making him the best representation of evil and ultimately the best villain to be the final one for the entire DBZ series.

Buu was never the perfect villain. This stuff about him being pure evil is a terrible argument. Buu was never pure evil until the brief Kid Buu saga. There was always a redeeming quality to the character because of his absorption of the Kai’s and his friendship with Hercule. Kid Buu was the only one who was pure evil and by the time he comes around, Cell (& to a lesser extent Freeza) has already done the whole pure evil shtick.

I’m not seeing how this makes my argument look terrible. My argument, if you recall, was that the final battle of the DBZ series was a battle between the embodiment of pure evil, Kid Buu; and the embodiment of pure good, Goku. The other forms of Buu were nothing more than a build to the climax of the ultimate battle between good and evil. And for the record, having a villain slowly progress to its ultimate form of evil is a damn-fine story. It’d be pretty lack-luster if Buu was evil from the beginning.

Clearly it wasn’t just about getting more money, but Toriyama had wished the end Dragon Ball back with Freeza, let alone Cell. Toriyama was well aware of this and that’s why Dragon Ball Z exists, because it’s designed to mark a change, as Goku and his friends headed towards their final fates. Freeza was supposed to be the conclusion initially, but then it was changed to Cell which is by many considered the strongest part of the series. Toriyama wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, having Goku die and Gohan become the Earth’s new defender. Instead he got roped into doing Buu for Shonen (Dragon Ball was there biggest title by a mile) and Toei, who had great ratings from DBZ.

No-No. Toriyama felt Gohan was unfit to be the protector of the Earth and therefore changed the result when he added in the Buu Sagas. Had he been contempt with Gohan being the protector of the Earth, he would have kept him as the hero all the way to the end and thus have Gohan be the one to destroy Buu.

But that’s beside the point. While I can see where Frieza could have been the intended villain to end the series, the fact of the matter is, Akira loved what he did and with that love in mind, he decided to continue his story as much as he could. So what happens? Then came Cell - A villain that COULD have been the perfect ending had Akira not felt that Gohan was unfit to become the protector of the Earth. So what does he do then? He creates the Buu – a story that becomes, in a sense, the true perfect ending to the story that was Dragonball Z.

Cell and Freeza are far more complicated than Buu, and Toriyama had managed to achieve all of what you stated above (minus Vegeta, which I agreed with you earlier on and the fusion thing which I’ll talk about a little later) during the Cell conclusion:

Oh, this should be fun…

• Hercule saves the day by throwing 16’s head into the ring
  
  
  [Even after Hercule had the balls to throw 16’s head into the midst of the battle-field, Hercule remained an arrogant, mentally challenged, douche-bag that thought that he was deservant of an honor that really wasn’t his. What does such accomplishment show for the “norms”? - That they’re a bunch of degenerates. En cambio, with the Buu Sagas, Hercule not only admits his traits have gotten in the way from seeing the truth, he puts his selfish ambitions aside to help seal the destruction of the embodiment of all things evil.
  
  Sure, he still takes credit for the assault, but this time it’s different. This time it wasn’t out of his ego, but rather because it’d be the only way that the people will listen. I’m sure if the people would have listened to Hercule without him telling them the energy was for them, he’d have done it that way – but with that occasion, what he used as an excuse was all he had to go by.]
  
  
• Goku was still the greatest hero of all, even with his death
  
  
  [Not exactly, he still WAS a great hero, but not the symbol that he was to be – not the symbol that shows he is the true protector of the Earth.]
  
  
• Good triumphed over evil at the conclusion of Cell
  
  
  [True. But with Bu, it was the ultimate battle of good vs evil – so it makes the result that much more impactful.]

Vegeta & Goku’s fusion wasn’t permanent and wasn’t exactly a mind blowing idea either.

Right, because it’s not any mark-boy’s dream to see the two remaining saiyans on Earth fuse into one body just as their sons did. Yea, not worth-while at all.

Oh, shit. Did I forget to put the above in red?

I’ve cleared this up a little earlier. I’m sure Vince is in the wrestling industry for more than money, but that’s a separate topic.

Well obviously – which is why I made the comparison of the theory you made and why it doesn’t make sense.

I never said that they had to start from the pilot. Buu is simply a bad jumping on point, that would confuse a lot of people due to the continuity of the series.

Confusing yes, but that doesn’t mean hat it doesn’t have the ability to suck in viewers as like I said before; the longer something is, the more of a chance you have people notice it.

The Simpsons is a terrible example. They’re story isn’t one long plot and they very rarely continue a plot into another episode. Prior knowledge of the series isn’t necessary where as with the Buu saga in DBZ, it is if you wish to understand it.

You’re missing the point. The analogy I made was because I wanted to show you that longevity has the power to increase viewership. Meaning, since Dragonball Z was that much longer, the number of viewers it gained dramatically increased.

Like I said, it’s not a great jumping on point. I never said it wasn’t able to intrigue people but did you continue to watch the series from the Buu saga? Not from what you’ve just said.

Irrelevant. My point was that the Buu Sagas being included increased the amount of viewers they could make as well as opportunities to make that much more money.

I never said it didn’t pick up any viewers, what I said was that it was a poor place to jump on, something you yourself helped me establish by saying you went back to watch the series to understand the point where you jumped on.

This doesn’t disprove my point, nor does it prove yours. What you are telling me is something that is irrelevant to the debate at hand. What does not being able to know what is happening have to do with the ending being better at the Cell Sagas. I’ll tell you: nothing. Case Closed.

Goten: Kid Goku all over again. If I wanted to see him I would just watch Dragon Ball
Trunks: Already in the series by Cell as both a baby & a teen.

These two also grew to become tiresome as the series wore on. They were entertaining for awhile but by the time Super Buu had absorbed them, I was quite relived. Gotenks also falls into that category.

Dude, look at me with a straight face and tell me you didn’t just bullshit both of those statements. Granted, Trunks and Goten did get somewhat annoying at one point of the series. However, let it be noted that they received a credible amount of fame. Goten, trunks, Gotenks – they all became very popular in the DBZ world – to say against that is asinine.

Vegito: Seriously? Your claiming that this fusion, which was very brief is a great character? What did he do bar kick Super Buu’s ass? Nothing. Was he entertaining? Yes. Was he brief and never mentioned again? You bet your bottom dollar he was.

Stop it – please, stop it. Vegito was every mark-boy’s dream. It’s unfathomable to think that people thought Vegito as something that was completely uninteresting. C’mon, dude. The incredible fighting candy wasn’t the least bit amusing?

Janemba, Herudegan, Gogeta: They’re movie characters and your simply bringing them in here to strengthen your argument. They all could’ve existed without the use of the Buu saga.

No they couldn’t have. Remember: each feature movie was based on something that was relevant with the current progressing story. Cooler was at the time of Frieza; Broly and Bojack were at the time of Cell; Broly’s second and third coming were at the time of the pre-stages of Buu; Janemba, every fan’s most highly anticipated villain, was at the time of the Super Buu; and finally, Herudigan is to reflect on the final battle with Kid Buu.

Point is: all of the feature movies ever created were a relevant reflection of what went on at certain parts of the series. Therefore, based on this, it’s only logical to think that had the Buu Sagas never been created, the final two villains as well as Gogeta would have never existed.

Androids 16-20: Included a major part of the Red Ribbon army, a character who would help bring an extra dimension to Krillin, the character who got Gohan to go past the breaking point and a couple of others.

Future Trunks: Was the flip said to the present day Gohan, wanted to fight as it was his only means of ending the horror his future had become.

King Cold: Added more to the back story of Freeza, and served as a measuring stick for Future Trunks to prove his power.

Hercule: The single funniest character in the latter stages of the series. Possibly the greatest thing about the Buu series and got huge laughs during his interactions with Cell.

Cell: The best villain in the series and the combination of the series protagonists. I’ve already talked about him in length.

And if we’re going by your logic of using fusion to create new characters:

The Nameless Namekian: Piccolo & Kami’s fusion, giving Piccolo a new lease of life and an added dimension.

Cool story, bro.

Listen man, my argument was never to discredit the characters that came as a result of the Cell Sagas because I loved each and every one of them. I only said what I said because I found your argument of the Buus bringing in “cheap” characters to be rather stupid. And based on how you told me they were “cheap”, I sure as hell don’t want to go down the same road and bullshit my way into discrediting the characters brought forth in the Cells.

Because the creator is always right? That’s naïve and you know it. Just because Toriyama didn’t want to give Gohan the mantle as the final villain doesn’t make it the right decision. Point in case: Stan Lee wanted Peter Parker & Gwen Stacy to get married in the Amazing Spider-Man comics, but left before he could follow through. It took the considerably younger Gerry Conway (aged 19) to see that Gwen’s character was stale and useless by this point and killed her off.

Wrong. You’re mind not willing to accept the fact that Gohan was unfit to become the protector of the Earth does not make what Akira did the “wrong” decision. Case in point (see what I did there?): What Akira intended to do is what happened. What Akira made happen becomes the truth. What became the truth is what sold the story. What sold the story is what made the money.

Great quote? Oh hell yes. But let’s not beat around the bush. Goku came into that fight as the underdog and yeah, he did leave as the strongest in the universe, but deep down, Goku knew that wasn’t going to be it. He knew at the very least that Freeza was coming back with his father and his hordes of minions. Goku was well aware that his back was against the wall when it came to fighting a galactic empire. For more information, see a little known Sci-Fi series known as Star Wars and it’s main protagonist Luke Skywalker.

Star Wars? Heaven forbid I like another Sci-Fi based series. Don’t want to come off too nerdy when my main group of friends that I hang out with in real life happen to be jocks, pot-heads, and a bunch of other idiots who have no future other than flipping burgers at your local Mccey-D’s.

Oh and as for this Goku is solely an underdog thing, he isn’t, but that is one of his main traits.

Cool. So long as you know it wasn’t his only trait, I have nothing more to prove.

Goku was indeed a source of inspiration for all these characters, but he isn’t the only one. Take Ichigo for example. Goku’s attitude towards villains is very apparent in Ichigo, but what’s far more apparent is the fact that the character is largely based on Yusuke Urameshi of YuYu Hakusho. Hell that whole initial arc in Bleach is based off of the YuYu story. Goku was a good foundation, for several characters, but he can’t be the only one, otherwise your writing a new series with Goku as your hero.

Never said he was the only influence in other characters, dude-man. I only stated that he was the foundation to which many characters were based upon – not the only foundation. Regardless, the fact that Goku was an icon to the anime world remains intact. Moreover, the Buu Sagas helped prove that even more so.

The fans knew Goku wasn’t invincible a long time before Cell. He does die before, remember? It takes him and Piccolo to defeat Raditz, where he dies. He gets his ass kicked badly by Vegeta to the point where it takes Gohan, Krillin & Yajirobe to help a crippled Goku defeat him. He gets soundly pounded by Freeza before he turns Super Saiyan. Hell he even succumbs to heart failure in Future Trunks’ timeline, something that would’ve happened in the regular too if not for Trunks’ journey to the past. So that argument is crap.

The key difference here is that no matter what happened, no matter how many struggles Goku endured, no matter how much suffering he went through, no matter how many odds he was up against – Goku always managed to come out on top. And that’s what Goku stood for. The embodiment of, well,…

[YOUTUBE]ZB05kadeV5o&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

And with Gohan being the new protector of the Earth, the credibility that this held is damaged. Not completely eradicated, mind you, but damaged nonetheless. But with the Buu Sagas, Goku regains his position as well,…

No it’s because Toriyama changed his mind and wanted Goku to finish as the hero, which in my opinion was a bad move, but to each his own.

Whether he “changed” his mind or not is a mystery of it’s own. But the fact of the matter was, he felt Gohan was unfit to be the ruler of the Earth and therefore, the concept of the story was changed. Also, the opinion that that was a bad move is subjective. But you already know that. In fact, it’s one of our most essential back-and-forth argument in this debate.

As I said earlieir, these characters did take influences from elsewhere.

Yes, of course. But the foundation – above all else – was from Goku. And Goku’s credibility as the strongest in the universe – the symbol that he was – the icon that he was – came as a result of the accomplishment in the Buus. Sure, it was hinted at prior to this, but the Buu Sagas helped strengthen this definition that was Goku.

There’s a reason why Goku’s called the Superman of manga y’know

Goku would kick Superman’s ass. Jus’ Sayin’.

So let me get this straight, you’re using Wikipedia, an internet forum with the voting based on FAVOURITE character, not strongest and a list that is clearly a pile of manure seeing as it features Gohan on the list, and not Kid Buu, who was proven to be far stronger by the end of the series. Good job.

What did the sources show? That the idealism that is spread amongst the internet is that Goku is by far and always will be the strongest anime character of all time. Fact is, at this point in time, Goku is still considered the number one strongest anime character of all time.

Funny I thought this debate was about DBZ, not GT. Your Super Saiyan 4 argument is thus null & void. But let’s say you put down Super Saiyan 3 instead. How pray tell would Goku beat Alucard? A creature whose powers are on par with Goku’s, and simply cannot be beaten by trying to rip, burn or freeze his body? Or Aizen for example, someone who can hypnotise Goku. Aizen is a very underrated character (see last year’s Battle Tournament that Echelon held) who has powers far beyond that of many others.

Just because the debate is about DBZ does not mean that SS4 Goku is null. In this specific part of the argument we have began to shit focus and argue who is the strongest of all anime characters. As a result, it’s only logical for me to involve SS4 Goku. If you will counter-act my argument with saying Goku SS4 is non-cannon, then I’m pretty sure I could still argue that SS3 Goku could take down both Aizen and Alucard. Granted, I have no real knowledge of how Alucard is, but to say that Alucard has a power-level of over, well, SS3 Goku is asinine. Same with Aizen. The hypnotism would never come in contact with Aizen as Goku would be too fast for it to even come in contact.

Motherfucker, every word I type makes more curious as to what Echelon’s battle tournament was. Constantly have I heard about it, but never experienced it. Is his tournament an annual thing or something? Because if it is, I’m pretty sure, I could guide Goku all the way to the championship.

Except Goku was already a God in Japan well before Buu. Toriyama had already succeeded in turning Goku into a legend all across Japan, Buu wasn’t needed to do that, and you yourself have stated that all you listed above was accomplishable.

With the world-wide exposure that the Buu Sagas caused, it helped spread the meme that goku was the “icon” all that much more. The same affect of the meme would have not been the same without thet Buu’s. The Buu’s helped show what Goku really was even more. Sure, the foundation was set, but with the Buu’s, it sky-rocketed this foundation to what became the ultimate reality.

That took forever to write (Something close to an hour and a half) but it was fun. I also apologise if I came across as a bit aggressive. I suggest we put up final arguments on Thursday, but before then let’s continue to do battle.

Agreed. This was also a lengthy one for me. Roughly 2 hours. Good thing I had two computer classes to which I could ignore the daily assignments and work on this – which is far more important. Lol.

On a side note, lenguy, I appreciate your input, but this was a direct challenge that I made to FunKay, and it’d be pretty unfair if he had to deal with a combination of me and you in this…

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

While I will note that DBGT in itself was a disappointment, what many fail to realize is that it was oly a disappointment in terms of what happened to its characters. The storylines, the ending, the concept – all of that was entertaining. The fact that the general meme of GT is that it was a shear disappointment is stupid. Gt accomplished what it needed to do and give the series a grand ending.

You’re kidding right? GT blew chunks in a variety of ways. This was the series that returned Goku to a kid when the fans wanted to see fresh material, not stuff from the past. That’s a combination of poor use of the character and a bad storyline. The villains were terrible for the most part, and the back stories were shocking (Seriously, Super 17 has to be one of worse ideas/origins in anime history). The reason people dislike DB GT so much is because it was terrible 9/10 times.

‘That said, the ending that was given in the Dragonball Z was also a grand ending much to the disbelief of many fans out there. What the ending in the Buu Sagas accomplished was an ambiguous conclusion in which it leaves the audience with a sense of wonder – asense that makes them wonder: “So Goku will forever be the protector of Earth – Goku is number one under the sun – and he will continue his life-long journey in wanting to fight.” -> This is what the conclusion of DBZ tells us.

So you would rather see Goku cock tease the fans by going up to new character and saying ‘Hey I want to train you’, than the epic ending that GT (one of the few good things it did) gave us? Well good luck with that.

The fact is, many Dragonball Z fans are too ignorant to see the truth behind Akira’s intentions – they only care of what is in front of them – they don’t want to think – they just want to see action. But when they finally are able to see behind their false-based reality, they will see the ending for DBZ as it was was a fine ending.

No it’s a bad idea. As Barbosa brought up a good while back, Toriyama can’t write conclusions very well, and the ending to DBZ is the perfect example of that. Rather than giving us, the viewer, a sense of closure, we are left disappointed as Toriyama refuses to give us that closure we seek. It wasn’t well done and everyone, except for you it seems, knows it.

Please. Yamcha and Tien had lost relevance since the day Frieza was destroyed. By then, it was known that Tien and Yamcha would never amount to anything and anything that they did from that point on would be insignificant. So the fact that you’re pointing out that they’re irrelevant in the Buu’s is in itself moot. As far as Gohan goes, what the hell are you blabbering about? Gohan ended on a high note as arguably the second strongest on Earth. Gohan was able to unlock even more hidden powers as a result of the Elder Kai and thus, gain a shit load of respect.

Not true. Tien serves a purpose during the Cell arc, showing that he could still stand up to the enemy and defy him. Tien was always one of the stronger characters (from a writing perspective) in the series and the fact that he gets treated so badly for characters like Videl is painful. Yamcha also serves a purpose in the Cell saga. He plays a role in Gero’s revenge. Gero’s first victim in the series? Yamcha. It serves as a link to the past with Yamcha being one of the original characters in the series. Gohan ended on a high note? You’re kidding right? He looks weak as fuck. He gets absorbed by Buu before being relegated to being the 5th weakest fighter in the show (Vegito, Kid Buu, Gotenks, Goku). His entire arc looks stupid just because Toriyama has a hard on for fusions and transformations.

What the? What the fuck kind of bullshit is this? Vegeta was full of pride – in any circumstance he would never admit that Goku was stronger than him. So what does this scenario beg for? For Vegeta to one day finally admit that after all his blindness, he can finally admit to both his pride and his well-being that Goku is in fact better than him. And how is this the perfect way to address this? By witnessing the gap in their powers as Goku takes on the strongest, most evil being in the Universe.

And what better way for it to occur than for Vegeta to get his ass beat by Goku? Goku should’ve defeated Vegeta, forcing the arrogant bastard to admit he was wrong. Not for Vegeta to go ‘My God How Could I Have Been So Wrong?’ That goes against the character altogether.

Uh, que? While it’s true the thing about Cell was that it was a mystery on it’s own – as the story had me baffled for quite a long time; however, to say that the ending for the Buu Sagas was predictable and not-as-dangerous is unbelievably ignorant. For starters, one will always have the sense that the good guy will come out on top – the only question is HOW will the good guy come out on top. Secondly, the Buu’s ending was just as big as surprise as it was for the Cell. With the Buu, you have two warriors that fail incomparison to the almighty power of the evil Buu. So what do you do? You shit your pants and try to think of a way to beat this evil monster. And what better way to defeat the monster with the most strongest, ultimate attack in the entire universe, the Spirit Bomb – a spirit Bomb that consists of energy of that of ALL the people of the Earth.

So you let me see if I understand this correctly. You were surprised when Goku used the Spirit Bomb to defeat Buu? That was painfully obvious from the day that he debuted as a tubby little bastard. Cell on the other hand, had managed to come back from death, dragging Goku with him into that dark abyss. You yourself said that Goku was always the hero, so as the viewer, with Gohan spent and Goku dead, you were left terrified that the Z Warriors were going to lose.

Let’s see…trying to build the most ultimate attack against the ultimate form of Evil with the consensus that people are unwilling to give their energy due to fear that they have no clue who they are giving it away to. Gee, tension, frustration, anxiety – these are all emotions that one would give as a result of such occurrences. Seems like a worth-while climax to the story to me.

To quote Scar from the Lion King: ‘Where Have I seen this before?’

[YOUTUBE]yXujmrdPzwg[/YOUTUBE]

Oh yeah.

Wait-wait. Let me get this straight. You’re saying that: 1) Gero’s evil was paased on to Cell (when really, Cell never had any intention to kill the Goku nor the Z-fighters as he was more contempt with destroying the Earth); 2) Because Gero wants Goku to die, that warrants Goku’s death; and 3) Gohan is more deservant of being the one to destroy Cell – an enemy that was to be indirectly (as proclaimed by you) the hate of Gero. -> I’m sorry but this is just flawed to no end.

1: Cell was created by Gero and is an extension therefore of Gero’s hatred for Goku
2: It’s fitting for Goku to die because he’s falling at the hands of someone who is tied to the entire series.
3: Gohan needed to destroy Cell. Why? Because Gohan needed to redeem himself for indirectly causing his father’s death.

Never showed mercy to anyone? So then I gues the “mercy” that he showed to Krillin, Trunks, and Vegeta doesn’t count, right? When he could have easily destroyed them – instead he decides to spare them so that they can become his messenger boys so that they can promote his tournament for him. Yea, “pure” evil indeed.

Did you even read what I wrote? As Michael Cole would say, and I quote:

‘...and never showed a shred of mercy to anyone, without gaining something...’

So as you can see there, Cell did indeed show mercy, but for his own twisted, dark purposes.

No. Pure evil was what Kid Buu was. Kid Buu could give two shits about anything other than one thing: destruction of everything. THAT is pure evil; when you are void of emotion – THAT is pure evil; when you are void of any human traits – THAT is pure evil; when you are void of anything that involves procrastination, and you only have the word “kill” on your mind – THAT is pure evil.

How is being void of emotions true evil? If that were the case then the best villains in history would all be fucking robots. Being void of emotions is an artificial tool that makes a villain appear to be better, when in reality characters that have real substance are, usually, better. Cell was complicated, but deep down he was pure, hardboiled evil.

I’m not seeing how this makes my argument look terrible. My argument, if you recall, was that the final battle of the DBZ series was a battle between the embodiment of pure evil, Kid Buu; and the embodiment of pure good, Goku. The other forms of Buu were nothing more than a build to the climax of the ultimate battle between good and evil. And for the record, having a villain slowly progress to its ultimate form of evil is a damn-fine story. It’d be pretty lack-luster if Buu was evil from the beginning.

It makes your argument look bad because Cell vs. Gohan is a better example of the whole pure evil vs. pure good thing. Gohan was still a child when he fought Cell, what can be more pure than a child, especially one like Gohan? Nothing, not even Goku who was a cheeky little bugger, as opposed to the shy Gohan.

No-No. Toriyama felt Gohan was unfit to be the protector of the Earth and therefore changed the result when he added in the Buu Sagas. Had he been contempt with Gohan being the protector of the Earth, he would have kept him as the hero all the way to the end and thus have Gohan be the one to destroy Buu.

And, as I talked about in my last response, the creator says, so it must be right. Yeah, of course.

But that’s beside the point. While I can see where Frieza could have been the intended villain to end the series, the fact of the matter is, Akira loved what he did and with that love in mind, he decided to continue his story as much as he could. So what happens? Then came Cell - A villain that COULD have been the perfect ending had Akira not felt that Gohan was unfit to become the protector of the Earth. So what does he do then? He creates the Buu – a story that becomes, in a sense, the true perfect ending to the story that was Dragonball Z.

Your re-writing history now. The series is clearly meant to end with Cell. Toriyama decided to end it, but was called out by Shonen & Toei to do another arc and that, combined with his views on who should be the final hero, led to the Buu series. If he isn’t asked to do it, Toriyama isn’t going to do Buu.

Even after Hercule had the balls to throw 16’s head into the midst of the battle-field, Hercule remained an arrogant, mentally challenged, douche-bag that thought that he was deservant of an honor that really wasn’t his. What does such accomplishment show for the “norms”? - That they’re a bunch of degenerates. En cambio, with the Buu Sagas, Hercule not only admits his traits have gotten in the way from seeing the truth, he puts his selfish ambitions aside to help seal the destruction of the embodiment of all things evil.

Sure, he still takes credit for the assault, but this time it’s different. This time it wasn’t out of his ego, but rather because it’d be the only way that the people will listen. I’m sure if the people would have listened to Hercule without him telling them the energy was for them, he’d have done it that way – but with that occasion, what he used as an excuse was all he had to go by.

He’s supposed to be an arrogant douche. That’s the point. He’s a comedy character that was given a series edge in the Buu stories.

Not exactly, he still WAS a great hero, but not the symbol that he was to be – not the symbol that shows he is the true protector of the Earth.

Where the fuck is Doug Crashin? I need a facepalm meme, stat! Just because he isn’t the strongest anymore or because he’s dead doesn’t mean he isn’t the definitive hero of Earth. The fact that he did all those things before his death (Red Ribbon army, Pilaf, Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza) means he’s a hero in the eyes of the world. He is a saviour no matter what. He is the reason Gohan is able to defeat Cell and he still has that symbolic tag attached to him.

Right, because it’s not any mark-boy’s dream to see the two remaining saiyans on Earth fuse into one body just as their sons did. Yea, not worth-while at all.

Never said it wasn’t a dream idea, it just seemed like a lazy plan. It was out of character for Vegeta and Goku could’ve whipped Buu’s ass as a Super Saiyan 3.

Confusing yes, but that doesn’t mean hat it doesn’t have the ability to suck in viewers as like I said before; the longer something is, the more of a chance you have people notice it.

Irrelevant. My point was that the Buu Sagas being included increased the amount of viewers they could make as well as opportunities to make that much more money.

Oh no doubt that longevity can equal attention, but how does it exactly=money? What part of the Buu saga was this big money making thing that you seem to bring up?

You’re missing the point. The analogy I made was because I wanted to show you that longevity has the power to increase viewership. Meaning, since Dragonball Z was that much longer, the number of viewers it gained dramatically increased.

Do you have any figures to back this claim up? I’ve never heard of the Buu saga raising the ratings for DBZ.

Dude, look at me with a straight face and tell me you didn’t just bullshit both of those statements. Granted, Trunks and Goten did get somewhat annoying at one point of the series. However, let it be noted that they received a credible amount of fame. Goten, trunks, Gotenks – they all became very popular in the DBZ world – to say against that is asinine.

Funny, I don’t seem to recall Trunks or Goten or Gotenks ever being called great characters. You yourself even said they became annoying. The pair of them (and the fusion) became points of the series that I wanted skip through.

Stop it – please, stop it. Vegito was every mark-boy’s dream. It’s unfathomable to think that people thought Vegito as something that was completely uninteresting. C’mon, dude. The incredible fighting candy wasn’t the least bit amusing?

I never said he was uninteresting, I said he was brief and shouldn’t be celebrated in the way that some do. He was fun for what he was: a brief character that was supposed to make Buu look piss weak.

No they couldn’t have. Remember: each feature movie was based on something that was relevant with the current progressing story. Cooler was at the time of Frieza; Broly and Bojack were at the time of Cell; Broly’s second and third coming were at the time of the pre-stages of Buu; Janemba, every fan’s most highly anticipated villain, was at the time of the Super Buu; and finally, Herudigan is to reflect on the final battle with Kid Buu.

Point is: all of the feature movies ever created were a relevant reflection of what went on at certain parts of the series. Therefore, based on this, it’s only logical to think that had the Buu Sagas never been created, the final two villains as well as Gogeta would have never existed.

First off, the third Broly movie is clearly post Buu as Android 18 asks for money from Hercule that he owes her for the World Tournament. Secondly, the events of these films are loosely based on events of the series. To suggest that they wouldn’t exist without Buu is silly. Buu isn’t even tied into those movies. The Fusion idea could simply be created as a movie only thing. That would also boost sales of the film if it was the only place you got to see Vegeta & Goku fuse.

Listen man, my argument was never to discredit the characters that came as a result of the Cell Sagas because I loved each and every one of them. I only said what I said because I found your argument of the Buus bringing in “cheap” characters to be rather stupid. And based on how you told me they were “cheap”, I sure as hell don’t want to go down the same road and bullshit my way into discrediting the characters brought forth in the Cells.

Videl was a love interest for Gohan, Trunks & Goten were annoying as hell, the other villains were kinda weak (Though I liked Dabura) and everyone else is meant to take a back seat to these guys? Yeah I think I’d rather see Tien and Yamcha than these guys.

Wrong. You’re mind not willing to accept the fact that Gohan was unfit to become the protector of the Earth does not make what Akira did the “wrong” decision. Case in point (see what I did there?): What Akira intended to do is what happened. What Akira made happen becomes the truth. What became the truth is what sold the story. What sold the story is what made the money.

Let’s face facts here: People are going to buy into anything that has Dragon Ball featured in some way shape or form. Akira Toriyama’s new plot didn’t sell his story, what sold his story was his previous plots. Dragon Ball was the best received title in Shonen Jump for years and people loved it. They were going to buy into whatever Toriyama gave them. Just because he liked it, doesn’t mean it was the right decision.

Never said he was the only influence in other characters, dude-man. I only stated that he was the foundation to which many characters were based upon – not the only foundation. Regardless, the fact that Goku was an icon to the anime world remains intact. Moreover, the Buu Sagas helped prove that even more so.

Goku was THE icon long before Buu. Goku was the greatest character Shonen had the privilege to market at the time and there’s a strong case that he’s the greatest of all time. Buu didn’t add anything to his legacy, all it did was repeat what had already come before. Goku always took down the big bads, minus Cell where he helped his son defeat the villain.

The key difference here is that no matter what happened, no matter how many struggles Goku endured, no matter how much suffering he went through, no matter how many odds he was up against – Goku always managed to come out on top.

And with Gohan being the new protector of the Earth, the credibility that this held is damaged. Not completely eradicated, mind you, but damaged nonetheless. But with the Buu Sagas, Goku regains his position as well,…

What in the blue-hell are you talking about? He was killed by Piccolo at the VERY START of DBZ. Piccolo was still pretty evil and he had every intention on killing Goku along with Raditz. By taking out those two, Piccolo was the strongest. Goku needs the help of three others to defeat Vegeta, what saves his ass that time isn’t himself; it’s his son turning into a giant ape, Yajirobe slicing Vegeta’s back open and Krillin using the spirit bomb. Make no mistake, Vegeta defeats Goku one-on-one. Gohan needs Goku’s help to win anyway, he needed his father to guide him into a victory against Cell and with Goku’s final words, he teaches Gohan his final lesson about fighting. Goku lives on through Gohan.

Whether he “changed” his mind or not is a mystery of it’s own. But the fact of the matter was, he felt Gohan was unfit to be the ruler of the Earth and therefore, the concept of the story was changed. Also, the opinion that that was a bad move is subjective. But you already know that. In fact, it’s one of our most essential back-and-forth argument in this debate.

Well said.

Yes, of course. But the foundation – above all else – was from Goku. And Goku’s credibility as the strongest in the universe – the symbol that he was – the icon that he was – came as a result of the accomplishment in the Buus. Sure, it was hinted at prior to this, but the Buu Sagas helped strengthen this definition that was Goku.

What are you on about? Goku was credited with being the ‘strongest in the universe’ looooooooooong before Buu. He’s the strongest after defeating Freeza. He IS the legendary Super Saiyan at this point and is the strongest being of all.

What did the sources show? That the idealism that is spread amongst the internet is that Goku is by far and always will be the strongest anime character of all time. Fact is, at this point in time, Goku is still considered the number one strongest anime character of all time.

No. What they proved was that fans like the Goku character. NOT that he’s the strongest, but that he’s the best loved. There’s a very real difference there.

Just because the debate is about DBZ does not mean that SS4 Goku is null. In this specific part of the argument we have began to shit focus and argue who is the strongest of all anime characters. As a result, it’s only logical for me to involve SS4 Goku. If you will counter-act my argument with saying Goku SS4 is non-cannon, then I’m pretty sure I could still argue that SS3 Goku could take down both Aizen and Alucard. Granted, I have no real knowledge of how Alucard is, but to say that Alucard has a power-level of over, well, SS3 Goku is asinine. Same with Aizen. The hypnotism would never come in contact with Aizen as Goku would be too fast for it to even come in contact.

Alucard is nigh indestructible. You remember when Cooler got Kamehameha’d into the sun? Yeah, he’d survive that. He’s got Cell’s regenerative powers, on steroids. As for Aizen, just because Goku is fast doesn’t make the hypnosis none-existent. Hell Goku would still look at his zanpakutou and be under the trance. Goku would be under Aizen’s spell and at that mother fucker’s mercy.

Motherfucker, every word I type makes more curious as to what Echelon’s battle tournament was. Constantly have I heard about it, but never experienced it. Is his tournament an annual thing or something? Because if it is, I’m pretty sure, I could guide Goku all the way to the championship.

It was a one off I think. It had a decent response but it was laid out really weirdly. Was confusing but fun.

With the world-wide exposure that the Buu Sagas caused, it helped spread the meme that goku was the “icon” all that much more. The same affect of the meme would have not been the same without thet Buu’s. The Buu’s helped show what Goku really was even more. Sure, the foundation was set, but with the Buu’s, it sky-rocketed this foundation to what became the ultimate reality.

Where has this ridiculous idea formed in your head that the Buu sagas are what makes DBZ an international hit? Dragon Ball is a well known franchise long before Buu. Goku and co were legends back when they were fighting Piccolo. Goku and friends were legends long before the pink blob called Buu stepped foot in the series.

As they say in Yu-Gi-Oh!...your move.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

You’re kidding right? GT blew chunks in a variety of ways. This was the series that returned Goku to a kid when the fans wanted to see fresh material, not stuff from the past. That’s a combination of poor use of the character and a bad storyline. The villains were terrible for the most part, and the back stories were shocking (Seriously, Super 17 has to be one of worse ideas/origins in anime history). The reason people dislike DB GT so much is because it was terrible 9/10 times.

The story concept was fine. It brought entertainment as well as enjoyment, which is really all anyone should hope for. The PG Era is constantly ridiculed for not containing quality of that of the Attitude Era, but does that make the PG Era shit? No, of course not. As such, the same can be said about DBZ to DBGT. Stories may not have been as good as the ones in the precedor but overall still entertaining. In any case, like I said, Dragonball GT achieved its purposes. And its purposes were: 1) Make money and 2) Give the story an ultimate ending.

So you would rather see Goku cock tease the fans by going up to new character and saying ‘Hey I want to train you’, than the epic ending that GT (one of the few good things it did) gave us? Well good luck with that.

I’m not following. Where did you get the idea that I believed the ending presented in the Buu’s was better than the one in GT? What I said was that both were grand endings. The DBZ ending was great as it was an ambiguous conclusion – one that leaves one to think – something that many don’t want to do. DBGT came as a result of DBZ and thus, gave the Dragonball series the ULTIMATE ending.

No it’s a bad idea. As Barbosa brought up a good while back, Toriyama can’t write conclusions very well, and the ending to DBZ is the perfect example of that. Rather than giving us, the viewer, a sense of closure, we are left disappointed as Toriyama refuses to give us that closure we seek. It wasn’t well done and everyone, except for you it seems, knows it.

No. It’s only a disappointment because YOU didn’t get what YOU wanted. The truth is, the DBZ ending provided closure for everyone and the story itself. The ultimate battle between good and evil was fought; Vegeta finally admits defeat; Goku is number one under the sun; Gohan lives happily ever after with his wife; etc, etc. The story provided closure for everything. Just because DBZ did not meet YOUR expectations of an ending does not make it any less worthy than what it really was. [/Slyfox696]

Not true. Tien serves a purpose during the Cell arc, showing that he could still stand up to the enemy and defy him. Tien was always one of the stronger characters (from a writing perspective) in the series and the fact that he gets treated so badly for characters like Videl is painful. Yamcha also serves a purpose in the Cell saga. He plays a role in Gero’s revenge. Gero’s first victim in the series? Yamcha. It serves as a link to the past with Yamcha being one of the original characters in the series.

It’s funny the way you word this whole paragraph. You say that these characters (Yamcha and Tien) served a purpose, when really other than ONE thing that they did – which is roughly at the very beginning of the Cells(and only to make themselves look inferior in the end) – they were but mere fillers that were unnecessary and irrelevant. Tien and Yamcha had lost the ability to keep up with the strengths of the saiyans. Case in point: they were humans and didn’t have what it took to even help the rest of the Z-fighters in the battles against Cell nor the Androids.

Gohan ended on a high note? You’re kidding right? He looks weak as fuck. He gets absorbed by Buu before being relegated to being the 5th weakest fighter in the show (Vegito, Kid Buu, Gotenks, Goku). His entire arc looks stupid just because Toriyama has a hard on for fusions and transformations.

5th weakest fighter?! You gotta be joking. Gohan unleashed his beyond hidden powers thus being able to reach a level that was arguably [almost] as strong as Goku’s SS3 form. Now, just be cause Gotenks was a fool and allowed himself to be absorbed by Buu does not make Gohan weak in the slightest. On the contrary that helped show that Gohan had the stones to remain as one of Erath’s mightiest protectors. He was the odds man out in that fight; yet despite that, he continued it all the way even though he didn’t have the slightest chance in beating Buu. Do you know what that calls for? Respect. The respect Gohan had lost was regained in that moment. The respect Gohan had achieved to finish the series on a high note.

And what better way for it to occur than for Vegeta to get his ass beat by Goku? Goku should’ve defeated Vegeta, forcing the arrogant bastard to admit he was wrong. Not for Vegeta to go ‘My God How Could I Have Been So Wrong?’ That goes against the character altogether.

Nonesense. Goku – from the very beginning – was shown to be a merciful person. He would never do that to Vegeta – he would never try and beat Vegeta for the sole purpose of proving he was stronger than him. That would make: 1) Goku look like an asshole and 2) make Vegeta look like a ******.

The ending present was perfect as Vegeta – as cloud minded as he was – was finally able to accept how strong Goku really was and how much of a hero Goku really was. Vegeta was able to realize this and to the same time retain his pride – as the once evil dark prince was finally brought into the light by his own reflection of the past as he watched Goku take on the single, baddest, biggest, strongest, embodiment of evil that had ever come to life.

[YOUTUBE]oh4iS-VEanE[/YOUTUBE]

C’mon. You can’t argue this is fucking awesome.

So you let me see if I understand this correctly. You were surprised when Goku used the Spirit Bomb to defeat Buu? That was painfully obvious from the day that he debuted as a tubby little bastard. Cell on the other hand, had managed to come back from death, dragging Goku with him into that dark abyss. You yourself said that Goku was always the hero, so as the viewer, with Gohan spent and Goku dead, you were left terrified that the Z Warriors were going to lose.

You must be psychic in order to predict that the series would have ended with the spirit bomb since the day the fat Buu emerged. Tell me, how did you figure that out? I’m genuinely interested in your psychic ability.

The gap in power between Kid Buu and Goku’s was FAR bigger than the gap of power between Cell and Gohan. Thus, it warrants for a surprise just as big if not bigger than the one you seem so eager to defend. With Kid Buu, a being light years stronger than the heroes, yet pure evil at the same time, the Z-fighters have only one option to defeat him – the spirit bomb. Only problem is, no one is willing to lend their energy for the bomb to become complete. As a result, you have everyone shitting themselves not knowing what to do. This shitting bricks moment lasts a lot longer than the one presented in your Cell’s.

To quote Scar from the Lion King: ‘Where Have I seen this before?’

[YOUTUBE]yXujmrdPzwg[/YOUTUBE]

Oh yeah.

[YOUTUBE]R-oT3e6PQqw&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Oh, shit, I could do the same. Although, I couldn’t find the full version of the climax so this is all I could present. In any case, the climax showed in the Buu Sagas is just as great as the one in the Cell’s if not more so.

1: Cell was created by Gero and is an extension therefore of Gero’s hatred for Goku

Too bad Cell could give two shits about Goku. All Cell cared about was becoming complete.

2: It’s fitting for Goku to die because he’s falling at the hands of someone who is tied to the entire series.

It’s not fitting. Goku is the hero of the story – the hero of the story cannot and should not die. The hero is the one that defeats all evil. The hero is the one that defies all odds. The hero is the one that saves the day. And at the end of the day, the hero is the one that must triumph over all as he is the one that has fought evil since the day he was found in the woods by a teenage girl that was hungry for cock. Goku was that hero from day one and he should end the 365th day of the year by STILL being the hero.

3: Gohan needed to destroy Cell. Why? Because Gohan needed to redeem himself for indirectly causing his father’s death.

And that’s fine – I have no problem with that – never have. I rather like the ending presented in the Cell Sagas. But the contrary is not what I’m arguing. What I am arguing is the ending in the Buu’s was far more worthy because it is Goku that defeats the final villain. Moreover, it is Goku – the embodiment of all things good that defeats Buu – the embodiment of all things evil.

Did you even read what I wrote? As Michael Cole would say, and I quote:

‘...and never showed a shred of mercy to anyone, without gaining something...’

So as you can see there, Cell did indeed show mercy, but for his own twisted, dark purposes.

Mercy by definition is giving chance. Buu would have never shown this. Kid Buu does not know the meaning of mercy. Buu only knows one thing. Kill. And when you only have “kill” on your mind, that makes him the perfect embodiment of evil. Kid Buu was pure evil. And being pure evil, that only makes him that much more qualified to be the final villain of the series.

Was Cell “pure” evil? No. No he wasn’t.

How is being void of emotions true evil? If that were the case then the best villains in history would all be fucking robots. Being void of emotions is an artificial tool that makes a villain appear to be better, when in reality characters that have real substance are, usually, better. Cell was complicated, but deep down he was pure, hardboiled evil.

No. Being void of emotions allows for one to get through things without consent or contempt. That’s a characteristic Buu had. He didn’t have emotions. Furthermore, the only thing in his mind was “destruction.” – Thus, making him the perfect embodiment of evil and ultimately the perfect embodiment of pure evil. What you described in Cell is him having human characteristics. Nothing more.

It makes your argument look bad because Cell vs. Gohan is a better example of the whole pure evil vs. pure good thing. Gohan was still a child when he fought Cell, what can be more pure than a child, especially one like Gohan? Nothing, not even Goku who was a cheeky little bugger, as opposed to the shy Gohan.

So being shy makes Gohan more pure good? I’m not seeing the connection. To say that Gohan would have been a better representation of good than Goku is in itself stupid. Goku, from day one, was always good. Moreover, he was innocent. The “little bugger” scenarios that you are referring to are things that he had yet to have full understanding of. But that’s beside the point. Goku was trully a larger than life character. Everyone looked up to him. Everyone followed his lead. Everyone loved him. The role that Goku presented from the beginning of the series makes him more qualified for being the representation of good than Gohan. Gohan was good, sure. But measured in comparison to Goku…Nah, Goku has him beat. Same with Kid Buu and Cell. The level of evil that Cell had falls in in comparison to the level of evil that was Buu.

And, as I talked about in my last response, the creator says, so it must be right. Yeah, of course.

Well, what the creator thought became what he did. And what the creator did became the truth so…

Your re-writing history now. The series is clearly meant to end with Cell. Toriyama decided to end it, but was called out by Shonen & Toei to do another arc and that, combined with his views on who should be the final hero, led to the Buu series. If he isn’t asked to do it, Toriyama isn’t going to do Buu.

No. Toriyama had full intention of ending Dragonball at Dragonball. Toriyama had no intention of doing DBZ in the first place. But through a little influence, he was persuaded into doing Dragonball Z. Tell me, FunKay, do you know where the letter Z represented in Dragonball Z? It wasn’t a representation of Z-warriors, but rather he used “Z” to tell fans that it was just about time to end things. Z was a representation of the final letter of the alphabet signifying end. But with that influence, he was convinced to take things up to Frieza – the enemy that he was COMPLETELY satisfied with in ending. But through the same little birdie, he continued to Cell. The only problem with Cell was that he wasn’t satisfied with the result. That and the fact that the little birdie once again told him to continue, spawned the creation of the Buus.

But it was through all this that he did his show out of love. He poured his heart and soul into all that was Dragonball and Dragonball Z. Sure, he had intentions of ending it at certain points in time, but nevertheless, he loved DBZ every step of the way and finished it with a complete satisfaction.

Cell was not the perfect ending. Cell left Akira with a taste of dissatisfaction and a result was so intent on changing the story. Sure, Toei was an influence in this, but to argue that it was an influence from the end of the Cell Games is stpid because Toei was behind Akira since the day he finished Dragonball.

He’s supposed to be an arrogant douche. That’s the point. He’s a comedy character that was given a series edge in the Buu stories.

An arrogant douche that ended up being viewed as a “hero.” Hercule’s actions in the Buu’s showed that it doesn’t just have to be the big strong monkeys that save the day – humans can save the day too. And that’s what hercule did – he helped save the day.

Where the fuck is Doug Crashin? I need a facepalm meme, stat! Just because he isn’t the strongest anymore or because he’s dead doesn’t mean he isn’t the definitive hero of Earth. The fact that he did all those things before his death (Red Ribbon army, Pilaf, Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza) means he’s a hero in the eyes of the world. He is a saviour no matter what. He is the reason Gohan is able to defeat Cell and he still has that symbolic tag attached to him.

Yes, now look at how good Goku looked there. Now add that to how much better he looked in the end of Buu. With a combination of these two and prior events, it only strengthens the vision that the fans had of Goku. Truth is, while the Cell’s still portrayed Goku as a hero, the Buu’s only added to that in order to make him even more God-like.

Never said it wasn’t a dream idea, it just seemed like a lazy plan. It was out of character for Vegeta and Goku could’ve whipped Buu’s ass as a Super Saiyan 3.

That makes it more fucking interesting! The fact that Vegeta would never agree to such a decision builds tension, frustration, intrigue in the viewer! It makes us want to watch what happens next all that much more! Jesus, what can’t you see in that?! To say that the fusion was a lazy plan is beyond bullshit and you know it. Vegeto was a fan’s dream. The concept of fusion alone was mark-out worthy and for Goku to fuse with vegeta…damn…

Oh no doubt that longevity can equal attention, but how does it exactly=money? What part of the Buu saga was this big money making thing that you seem to bring up?

You’re seriously asking this question? I suppose in your mind viewers =/= fans =/= spending =/= money. Well, you see, FunKay…in the world of business, the more you expose your product to viewers, the more likely that they are willing to spend money to obtain certain aspects of this product.

The Buu’s led to more oppurtunities in making money. How so? Well, you get to have a wider variety in: video games, trading cards, collectible cards, merchandise, toys, apparels, t-shirts, sweatshirts, manga volumes, coloring books, magazines, feature movies, VHS, DVD’s, collectibles, etc, etc, etc, etc…

Do you have any figures to back this claim up? I’ve never heard of the Buu saga raising the ratings for DBZ.

Right, because we all know for a fact that the Buu Sagas only hurt the number of ratings. Yes, the Buu Sagas were a total bomb and a waste. :rollseyes:

Funny, I don’t seem to recall Trunks or Goten or Gotenks ever being called great characters. You yourself even said they became annoying. The pair of them (and the fusion) became points of the series that I wanted skip through.

Why are you so intent on sounding so fake? Goten and Trunks both added ‘child’ attributions that were never ever shown before. Prior to the invention of Goten and Trunks, the show had been too adult orientated. The only kid was Gohan and even then he really wasn’t a kid. But with Goten and Trunks added, we got to see nice new addition in the DBZ show with more involvement of these children and their ‘child’ attributions that only added entertainment to the series. Goten and Trunks were a nice new feel to the show; sure, the got annoying at times, but that was all part of the intent – their kids – they’re supposed to get childish and annoying. Seeing all this makes the show that much more fun to watch.

I never said he was uninteresting, I said he was brief and shouldn’t be celebrated in the way that some do. He was fun for what he was: a brief character that was supposed to make Buu look piss weak.

Stop. Being. So. Fake. Vegeto was every mark-boy’s dream. Seeing the two biggest bestest characters in the entire DBZ series merge bodies was beyond MTFOx10000. Doesn’t matter that it was for a brief period – we got to see what we wanted – that’s all that matters.

First off, the third Broly movie is clearly post Buu as Android 18 asks for money from Hercule that he owes her for the World Tournament. Secondly, the events of these films are loosely based on events of the series. To suggest that they wouldn’t exist without Buu is silly. Buu isn’t even tied into those movies. The Fusion idea could simply be created as a movie only thing. That would also boost sales of the film if it was the only place you got to see Vegeta & Goku fuse.

Timelines. Timelines. Timelines. Not BUU! Buu wasn’t even there! Of course they could have existed without “BUU”! But I’ll tell you what they couldn’t have existed without – the TIMELINE that the Buu’s presented. Had that timeline never occurred, neither would the concepts presented in those movies. Because of the concepts presented in the Buu’s, it was possible for the concept in the movies to be presented. You yourself says that 18 asks Hercule for money. Had the tournament never existed in the Buu’s, than that concept could have never been presented!

Videl was a love interest for Gohan, Trunks & Goten were annoying as hell, the other villains were kinda weak (Though I liked Dabura) and everyone else is meant to take a back seat to these guys? Yeah I think I’d rather see Tien and Yamcha than these guys.

OHHHH NOOOO YOUUUU DI-IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!

Tien and Yamcha were shit ever since the end of Frieza – heck, I’d argue they were shit since the saiyan Saga. Hell, I’ll say Yamcha was shit since Dragonball. Videl was perfect for Gohan as it gave him a girl. The kids were added to add a “child” attribution to the show. Dabura was the king of demons – he was awesome. I could go on, but you get the point. Or at least you should.

Let’s face facts here: People are going to buy into anything that has Dragon Ball featured in some way shape or form. Akira Toriyama’s new plot didn’t sell his story, what sold his story was his previous plots. Dragon Ball was the best received title in Shonen Jump for years and people loved it. They were going to buy into whatever Toriyama gave them. Just because he liked it, doesn’t mean it was the right decision.

I’m not seeing the problem with what I presented in the previous quote. If what he created was the “truth” and if the “truth” made money – that’s all that there is to it.

Goku was THE icon long before Buu. Goku was the greatest character Shonen had the privilege to market at the time and there’s a strong case that he’s the greatest of all time. Buu didn’t add anything to his legacy, all it did was repeat what had already come before. Goku always took down the big bads, minus Cell where he helped his son defeat the villain.

No, Goku was still building his “icon” form prior to the Buu’s. You know why? Because the Buu’s showed just how much more big of an icon he could get? The Buu’s strengthened the reality that was created for him being an icon and took it to a whole nother level. I agree that Goku was an icon prior to the Buu’s – but he wouldn’t have been the icon that he is today without the creation of the Buu’s.

What in the blue-hell are you talking about? He was killed by Piccolo at the VERY START of DBZ. Piccolo was still pretty evil and he had every intention on killing Goku along with Raditz. By taking out those two, Piccolo was the strongest. Goku needs the help of three others to defeat Vegeta, what saves his ass that time isn’t himself; it’s his son turning into a giant ape, Yajirobe slicing Vegeta’s back open and Krillin using the spirit bomb. Make no mistake, Vegeta defeats Goku one-on-one. Gohan needs Goku’s help to win anyway, he needed his father to guide him into a victory against Cell and with Goku’s final words, he teaches Gohan his final lesson about fighting. Goku lives on through Gohan.

Exactly. This all happened with the Cells. Now look at what happens with the Buu’s?The reality of Goku that is created is much bigger and stronger. You yourself said that with the pre-stages of DBZ Goku couldn’t handle shit on his own. And no way could he handle shit on his own in the Cell’s – Thereinby, unable to make him the hero that he is today. But what happens in the Buu’s? What reality is created then? Yea, that’s right: Goku is number one…under the sun. Thanks for proving my point.

What are you on about? Goku was credited with being the ‘strongest in the universe’ looooooooooong before Buu. He’s the strongest after defeating Freeza. He IS the legendary Super Saiyan at this point and is the strongest being of all.

But what happens in Cell? He’s not the strongest then now is he? Gohan is, right? Way to contradict your own arguments, buddy. Do you even read what you write?

No. What they proved was that fans like the Goku character. NOT that he’s the strongest, but that he’s the best loved. There’s a very real difference there.

Nahhhh, they proved what is right. And what is right, is that Goku is the strongest anime character of all time.

Alucard is nigh indestructible. You remember when Cooler got Kamehameha’d into the sun? Yeah, he’d survive that. He’s got Cell’s regenerative powers, on steroids. As for Aizen, just because Goku is fast doesn’t make the hypnosis none-existent. Hell Goku would still look at his zanpakutou and be under the trance. Goku would be under Aizen’s spell and at that mother fucker’s mercy.

Unless Goku’s will was enough to break free from the hypnosis. Which really, comparing the will of the Soul Reapers’ to someone like Goku is like comparing a mice to a dinosaur. As for alucard – don’t bullshit me. Allucard can’t even fly(?), all Goku has to do is fly out into space and blast the panet with his spirit bomb. Not even Alucard can regenerate from that.

It was a one off I think. It had a decent response but it was laid out really weirdly. Was confusing but fun.

Hope there’s on this year.

Where has this ridiculous idea formed in your head that the Buu sagas are what makes DBZ an international hit? Dragon Ball is a well known franchise long before Buu. Goku and co were legends back when they were fighting Piccolo. Goku and friends were legends long before the pink blob called Buu stepped foot in the series.

The level of exposure DBZ received as a result of the Buu’s helped it become more widely known throughout the world. It’s like I said before, the longer something is, the longer and better chance you have of more people catching up on it and getting sucked into it. Just apply this into what is known as international exposure.

As they say in Yu-Gi-Oh!...your move.

I summon the Blue Eyes Ultimate White Dragon to attack your life points directly! You lose, Wheeler.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Closing Remarks

Point 1: A Fitting End​

The Cell saga offered a variety of major characters a conclusion that was realistic. Bulma was able to start a family. Yamcha, Tien, Vegeta & Piccolo can all safely retire. Krillin can pursue #18. Goku is dead and has helped Gohan overcome the greatest foe of all - Cell. Gohan is now Earth's defender and if evil raises its ugly head, he'll defend it. Goku has accepted his fate and even goes for further training under King Kai. Lastly, Future Trunks, thanks to his father and Goku now has the power to take down his enemies in the future, saving mankind.

Point 2: All Evidence Points to Cell​

Why would Akira Toriyama, invest so much time into building Gohan up throughout the Android odyssey to turn him into Earth's saviour? Because he knows that he's going to end the series with Gohan victorious and Goku dead. Why would Toriyama create a villain that was a twisted mirror image of all the major power players in DBZ? Because he knows that Cell is the final foe. Not only is Cell the logical conclusion, it's always set up to be the very end. Buu comes about because of money and Toriyama's desire to have Goku go out as the hero.

Point 3: Buu Screws Up Major Players​

Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Tien. What do all these names have in common? They all have their characters poorly treated in the Buu saga. Tien is wheeled out simply as fodder for Super Buu, Trunks' lasting legacy on the series, rather than being a bad-ass that saves the future is a whiny kid who becomes deeply annoying very quickly. Piccolo is turned into comedy and his fighting ability is shat all over. But by far the worse treatment of a character would be Gohan. The character is turned from the saviour of the world into an adolescent who is defeated far too quickly by far too many people. It's a really poor piece of handling and is one of the major criticisms of the Buu saga.

Praise for Mister Awesome:​

I had a lot of fun here. This was one hell of a debate between you and I and I'd like to thank you for giving me a very tough match. We had a lot to wade through and I think we did very well. I have a lot of respect for you as a poster and your definitely one of the people to watch out for in 2011. Mark my words, Mister Awesome is a force to be reckoned with on WrestleZone.

Thanks a lot for a fun debate.

Spoiler

Oh, and vote JBL in 2011

 

[Dark Horse]

Uuuhhhhh, I didn't want to get into you guys' MASSIVE debate, I just love the hell out of DB/DBZ/DBGT and wanted to share my own story about it.

I was first introduced to DB and DBZ by a friend of mine in middle school, that was 1997 or 1998. Our drama teacher was a big fan of Japanese film and manga, my friend who was into DBZ asked the teacher if he brought in one of his DBZ tapes if we could watch it in class since we studied a lot of Japanese movies. Our teacher obliged and when our class saw it we were all blown away, it was unlike anything we'd ever seen. Sure, it was a classic good vs evil, but this was not Ninja Turtles or Power Rangers. These characters were in a whole other realm of power, and the way everything was presented and played out was a little more serious and dramatic than anything we'd really seen before. That day after school I went to my friends house with him and we watched the rest of his tapes into the night. I was hooked immediately.

It wasn't on T.V. here in America quite yet at this point, it was later that year when Cartoon Network started to re-air them on Toonami that the DBZ Fever really hit. I remember at the time being so excited when Toonami did all this. I had only seen a few tapes a friend of mine had, now I was going to see the full story. The anticipation of each episodes revealing was insane, waiting week by week for each episode to tell more of the story.

When I was in high school 2000-2004 is when I remember DBZ being at it's biggest. I was so into it. I had posters, t-shirts, those polyester picture shirts(I still have 2 of the T-shirts and one of the polyester shirts), I bought the videos, and when the DBZ Budokai game came out, I bought a PS2 just so I could play it(I also bought Smackdown Shut Your Mouth at the same time). Everyone I knew was into it, and we would make occasions of meeting up and watching the episodes together. We used to go to an Arcade/Pool Hall every weekend and the people there always turned it on for us at 11:00 pm or 11:30 pm(whichever it was) so you would have this group of teenagers all sitting there watching this show there while playing pool, video games, and getting into other mischief. It was practically an event.

Nothing lit it up as I remember it, like the Buu saga. That was really when I'd say I and my friends were probably into it most, and when it seemed the biggest. The Great Saiyaman and World Tournament Saga's were a great lead-in to it. I really loved the otherworld tournament, I thought Pikkon was a real bad ass and of course he reminded me of Piccolo who is one of my absolute favorite characters. I liked seeing The Grand Kai, the otherworld in general, and learning about the other Kai's, their fighters, and the otherworld tournament itself. It was apart of the DBZ universe we hadn't got to learn that much about yet, so that to me made it all the more intriguing.

The World Tournament was great as well and segwayed us into the Buu Saga perfectly when Yamu and Spopovich attack Gohan. Everything from there on out was so good. Arguably the biggest and most memorable moment of DBZ after Goku turns Super Saiyan, was Majin Vegeta and the long awaited battle between him and Goku. After that when Buu is awakened it just gets bigger and badder from there on out until the end of Z.

GT was the most anticipated thing for me. I had a couple friends who had already seen all of it on the internet somehow and knew everything that went on in GT. They told me about Goku and Vegeta going to SSJ4, the return of Android 17 as Super 17, the golden Oozaru's of Goku and Vegeta, Gogeta, Shenron, everything. GT sounded so cool when I heard about it I thought it sounded better than Z when I was first told about all of it. When I actually got to see GT, it didn't start quite as good as I had hoped, but it ended up being a worthy successor in my eyes. I liked that GT took itself a big more serious than Z did, it was a little more mature and darker somehow which made everything that happened seem bigger than what happened before it. I loved the whole thing and wish it would have either continued, or a new series have been made(not Kai).

My favorite character is Vegeta. He was my favorite guy upon his arrival.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Closing Arguments​

Goku - not Gohan​

As proclaimed by Toriyama himself, Gohan was unfit to be the protector of the Earth. The problem with Gohan was that he didn't give off that feeling - that special "feeling" that you get when you hear the name Goku. Goku was always the main character of the series and always the hero of the story. So while it was great to see Gohan come out as the victor, in the end, it was Goku that was the deserving one to end the series as number one under the sun.

Goku is a symbol. In the Dragonball world, he is the embodiment of all things good. The hope of the Universe. The light in the darkness. In the anime world, Goku is also a symbol. Many times have many manga creators stated that their main characters were based off of Goku. Basically, Goku served as the foundation that paved the way for many manga/anime characters to come. And while all these attributes had slowly been built as the series progressed, it was the Buu Sagas that connect the loose ties that would establish the legacy that would be Goku.

The Profit was made​

While it's true that Akira loved to do what he did, it should be dully noted the amount of profit that came as a result of the Buu Sagas. With the Buu's, Dragonball Z was able to become more of an international hit as well as have more sources when it came to making the profi. Apparel, DVD's, VHS. Toys - you name it - The Buu's gave Dragonball Z more sources to choose from and thus make more of that green.

The Ultimate Battle between Good and Evil​

Every heads has a tails. Every Yin has a Yang. And every protagonist has an antagonist. Ladies & gentlemen, Kid Buu was the best antagonist Goku could have ever had. Goku was the embodiment of all things good. And to contrast this, Buu was the embodiment of all things evil. So what happens when you have the embodiment of all things good against the embodiment of all things evil? You get the ultimate battle between good and evil. Dragonball Z, since its initiation was primarily about good vs. evil. Evil became a threat, Good trained, after a series of events, good vs evil would clash and good would end up triumphant.

Therefore, following this logic, it’d only make sense for the final battle of the DBZ series to have the ultimate battle between good and evil. And ladies & gentlemen, Goku vs. Kid Buu was that ultimate battle.

Praise for FunKay​

FunKay, since my arrival to the forums, has always been the guy I refer to when I want to read something about anime. The guy's knowledge in anime is amazing. Where I'm from, there are rarely any anime followers, so finding people as knowledgeable about anime as FunKay is something I'm very happy to have. Coincidently, I always felt that FunKay would be a force to be reckoned with should I ever encounter myself in a debate with him. I tried to debate him once, but much to my inability to do so, we never went through with it.

But here, I was able to finally debate against the guy I've been wanting to debate for a very long time. And while although this debate was one fricken long as hell, I can honestly say it was extremely fun. Dragonball Z has always been my favorite show - debating against someone who knows his shit and then some was beyond awesome. Thanks for everything, man. You're an awesome poster and one hell of a debater.

 

[jobesukulele]

I love how Dragonball has etched its way into a wrestling thread just like it has every other place in this known universe.

The original Dragonball is my personal favourite for comedy. Dragonball Z rocks for action but rarely made me laugh out loud like Dragonball managed so often to do.

 

[Zigglerfan227]

To simply answer your questions, I like the original Dragonball better than GT, and the Cell/Android saga is better than the Frieza saga in many ways. Overall though, my favorite saga was the Sayian saga with Raditz, Vegeta, and Nappa.

 

[wrestlingfan]

The Frieza/Saiyan Saga really got me into the story but I would say the Cell/ANdroid Saga is better because of these reasons

Reasons
Gohan got spotlight and veen with the help of Goku ended up being the one defeating Cell in the end, with Goku taking his leave.
Cell proved to be a villain that would take more to defeat really pushing these heroes to their limits. You had the Saiyans, Piccolo, even the Humans training in the hyperbolic time chamber.
They debuted Trunks and there was getting into a story behind each character even getting personal a bit.
This was the big leap for DBZ showing that the Humans/Piccolo weren't the spotlighjt anymore and honestly if they wanted to this could've been a potentital canidate for The Climax of DBZ.

 

[Hologram]

I was abit of a late starter when it came to Dragon Ball Z.

I never watched it when I was young for some reason (probably stupidity), but I always got to listen to my friends tell me how awesome it was, but at this point it was no longer on TV.

However, last Summer I downloaded all the episodes and watched through, and I loved it.

My personal favourite saga was the Namek/Frieza, as I think it gave some of the best drama and action. However, I can also see why the Cell saga is often considered the best.

I am now watching through for the second time, and am now on the 4th episode, so Goku & Piccolo have just finished off Raditz, and Goku is now going down Snakeway on the way to King Kais.

 

[ABMorales787]

The Cell Saga is a true fan's ending. Nobody can deny that. The anime split of DB and DBZ is noted by the birth of Gohan and entails his development as a warrior. It's the only story to arch over the entire series. Yeah, Buu saga. To me, I will always consider it apart of the rest of DBZ. It blew too many things out in favor of the cash-in. What was originally a symbolic ending of the passing of the torch and birth of the true Legendary Super Saiyan (the idea behind Gohan becoming SSJ2) became the catalyst to turn Gohan into the unaverage boy entering the average world. I never bought for a second that a boy who was willing to torture a monster like Cell out of revenge would degrade into The "Great" Saiyaman. The love interest would have been fine, but why exploit everything established? Why did becoming a Super Saiyan become something out of an RPG? And the fusion concept? To me was only good in Fusion Reborn. Yeah, I didn't like Vegito or SSJ4 Gogeta.

At the least, the Buu saga should have been it's own series if the idea was to continue exploiting it. The norm was far too blown out of proportion. I still facepalm every time I see Buu just slaughter everyone and blow up Earth the same as I do when I see this exaggerated variety of Super Saiyans. Something that was supposed to be special became excessive. Not to mention the crazy amount of ass-pulls in it.

 

[ThUnDeRpHoEnIx]

DragonBallZ=Greatest Anime ever.

I grew up watched it and have most games. The Freeza saga was the greatest.The Emotion that just pours out of it when Krillin dies and Goku turns Super Sayain for the first time.Its incompareable.The ruthlessness of Freeza is just insane as she does anything to get her way.She survived the Spirit Bomb something Buu couldnt do.

And then came along GT.I thought could it be a worthy successor?The answer is yes.Not as good as the original series but it took a darker tone and really helped cement DBZ's legacy in teh anime world.

 

[wrestlingfan]

DragonBallZ=Greatest Anime ever.

I grew up watched it and have most games. The Freeza saga was the greatest.The Emotion that just pours out of it when Krillin dies and Goku turns Super Sayain for the first time.Its incompareable.The ruthlessness of Freeza is just insane as she does anything to get her way.She survived the Spirit Bomb something Buu couldnt do.

And then came along GT.I thought could it be a worthy successor?The answer is yes.Not as good as the original series but it took a darker tone and really helped cement DBZ's legacy in teh anime world.

Frieza's a boy sorry, not a girl. Also the size of the Spirit Bombs between Buu and Freeza were different. When Goku used the Spirit Bomb on Frieza, it was really just by the nearby planets. When Goku used the Spirit Bomb against Buu he had the Earth's whole population at his will. Nor do I think the Spirit Bomb killed Buu. I remember Buu being reincarnated into Uub

 

[ThUnDeRpHoEnIx]

Frieza's a boy sorry, not a girl. Also the size of the Spirit Bombs between Buu and Freeza were different. When Goku used the Spirit Bomb on Frieza, it was really just by the nearby planets. When Goku used the Spirit Bomb against Buu he had the Earth's whole population at his will. Nor do I think the Spirit Bomb killed Buu. I remember Buu being reincarnated into Uub

Did they confirm that?I remember always thinking Frieza was a chick because of her voice actor and her final form.

Buu was only reincarnated as Uub because Goku wished that.So techincally if GOku didnt make that wish Buu would be dead and we wouldnt have had Uub/Majuub.

 

[lenguy]

Did they confirm that?I remember always thinking Frieza was a chick because of her voice actor and her final form.

Yeah dude Frieza was a guy. King Cold always referred to him as his Son, Cooler referred to Frieza as his brother. I know the voice may throw you off a bit and it was always a common misconception but truth is Frieza is a guy. Don't let the voice fool you.

 

[wrestlingfan]

Did they confirm that?I remember always thinking Frieza was a chick because of her voice actor and her final form.

Buu was only reincarnated as Uub because Goku wished that.So techincally if GOku didnt make that wish Buu would be dead and we wouldnt have had Uub/Majuub.

But that's pure speculation. Buu could've survived it for all we know

 

[ThUnDeRpHoEnIx]

But that's pure speculation. Buu could've survived it for all we know

No Buu was killed.Otherwise Uub wouldnt be borned.If Uub isthe reincarnation of Buu he wouldnt be alive if Buu was still alive.