The Dragonball Z Thread!

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Then Cell becomes perfect and conquers the Earth, possibly drawing the attention of Frieza, who he quickly dispatches and without any Z Fighters to drain energy from perhaps Babidi never manages to reawaken Buu leaving Cell as master of the galaxy.

Or, Cell is never activated because Dr. Gero wouldn't have had to activate 17 and 18 in order to try and combat the Z-Fighters because they'd all have been dead allowing Gero and 19 to run rampant, and there'd have been no one left to take revenge on, which was the sole reason Cell was created in the first place.

Plus Trunks wouldn't have come back in time, allowing Cell to do the same, because he would have never been born in the first place.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Also, maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that in those 10 days that were given, Goku was never worried about what Cell could do. He was calm the entire time. When the main character of the story has no worry over the main villian, you know that the amount of "threat" they pose is greatly reduced.

Because he assumed Gohan would go ape-shit and kill Cell. During the actual fight between Gohan and Cell before he turns SSJ2, Piccolo berates Goku for doing this, explaining that while Goku and Vegeta live to do nothing but fight stronger opponents, Gohan is half human and is far more gentle and forgiving in nature, so he's not going to purposely lose his temper.

At this point Goku shits a brick.

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

There's a problem with this theory. If I remember correctly, the reason that Hirudegan even came to Earth was because the box that Tapion was trapped in was shattered by the wish of the Dragonballs. But, as we all know, the dragonballs were destroyed when Piccolo was killed by the Androids - thus the possibility of the dragonballs being used to destroy the music box becomes impossible.

As for the sword, I think that it was merely a sword that Trunks had and nothing more. There's a big flaw with Tapion giving him the sword because when Tapion came into the DBZ world, Gohan had the powers given to him by elder kai; Goten was born; and most important of all, Goku was still alive. In the future world, all three of these are non-existent.

Tapion's sword could be the answer as to why Trunks in GT has a sword, but it certainly cannot answer why Future Trunks had the sword. Therefore, all I can think of is that the sword Trunks has is just a sword he had with no real special meaning or anything.

Here's the thing though, at the end of Wrath Of The Dragon it shows clips of Future Trunks using that sword against Mecha Freiza and his henchmen. So it's obviously Tapion's sword.

I don't know though, I guess there really isn't an answer as to why Future Trunks has it. As said before, the movies are Non-Canon and probably don't affect the anime at all. It sucks because we'll never get an answer, but it's still pretty fun to come up with theories.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Because he assumed Gohan would go ape-shit and kill Cell. During the actual fight between Gohan and Cell before he turns SSJ2, Piccolo berates Goku for doing this, explaining that while Goku and Vegeta live to do nothing but fight stronger opponents, Gohan is half human and is far more gentle and forgiving in nature, so he's not going to purposely lose his temper.

At this point Goku shits a brick.

But see, here's the thing. Goku didn't have this shitting bricks moment until the heat of the battle - which was roughly near the end of Cell entirely. Yet, his shitting bricks moment disappears right after Gohan turns SS2 -thereinby, reducing his worry and the threat that Cell posed.

But prior to this momment, Cell was never really viewed as a threat to the Z-fighters in specific. After all, his purpose was to become complete - not kill Goku (etc). And even when he became complete, he had multiple chances to kill all of the Z-fighters, but never did. Therefore, based on all this - and the fact that Goku often times payed no mind to Cell's power, I can only conclude that the threat Cell made was not as credible as the one by Frieza.

Here's the thing though, at the end of Wrath Of The Dragon it shows clips of Future Trunks using that sword against Mecha Freiza and his henchmen. So it's obviously Tapion's sword.

I don't know though, I guess there really isn't an answer as to why Future Trunks has it. As said before, the movies are Non-Canon and probably don't affect the anime at all. It sucks because we'll never get an answer, but it's still pretty fun to come up with theories.

Of course it is - it's one of the best parts of being apart of the DBZ fanbase. I'm just saying that the possibility of Tapion being the one that gives the sword to future Trunks is nearly impossible due to the different time zones (etc). Though, on that note, I think I remember reading somewhere that stated that a DBZ game specifically mentioned that the sword future Trunks had was indeed from Tapoin. I think the game was....I can't remember.

Something to go by, though.

 

[lenguy]

Okay, Lets talk about power levels. Every site I check out they list the power levels of most of the fighters throughout the series, While on some sites the powers will differ than on another but they remain fairly close. This is the most accurate list I could find but when I look at it I know I can see a few mistakes(I will outline in bold)

Spoiler

Battle with Raditz
Raditz – 1,220
Farmer – 5

Piccolo – 322 408

Son Goku – 334 416
Kuririn – 206
Master Roshi – 139

Son Gohan - 710 1-1307

Son Goku [Kamehameha] – 1,080
Piccolo [Special Beam Cannon] – 1,330

Piccolo [Special Beam Cannon] – 1,440

Tenshinhan – 250
Yamcha – 177
Chaozu – 145

Battle with Nappa
Saibamen – 1,220
Kuririn – 1,083
Gohan – 981
Piccolo – 1,220

Yamcha – 1,450
Kuririn – 1,600

Nappa – 4,000
Tenshinhan – 1,750

Tenshinhan [Kikoho] – 2,500

Piccolo – 2,000 3,500after the fight

Gohan – 1,500
Gohan [Masenko] – 2,800

Son Goku – 8,000
Nappa – 7,800 still 4000

Son Goku [Kaioken] – 16,000

Battle with Vegeta
Son Goku – 8,000
Vegeta – 18,000

Son Goku [Kaioken x2] – 16,000
Son Goku [Kaioken x3] – 24,000
Son Goku [Kaioken x4]-32,000

Vegeta [Gyarikku-Ho] – 41,000
Son Goku [Kaioken x3 & Kamehameha] – 41,000

Son Goku [Kaioken x4 & Kamehameha] – 49,000

Vegeta – 12,800
Great Vegeta – 100,000

Gohan – 1,500
Kuririn – 1,600

Vegeta – 9,000
Gohan – 2,500

Genki Dama – 8,200

Vegeta – 800
Great Gohan – 7,000

Battle with Freeza’s Henchmen
Namekian Warriors – 1,000
Namekian Warriors – 3,000

Gohan – 1,500
Kuririn – 1,500

Kiwi – 18,000
Vegeta – 24,000

Dodoria – 20,000

Zarbon – 22,000
Monster Zarbon – 27,000

Vegeta – 28,000

Battle with the Ginyu Force
Gohan – 16,000
Kuririn – 14,000

Guldo – 140

Vegeta – 28,000
Reacoom – 40,000

Volume 8
Reacoom - 40,000
Son Gohan - 11,500
Kuririn - 10,500

Son Goku - 5,000 (Could burst his power up to 10fold Kaioken when necessary)
Jheese - 40,000
Butta - 40,000

Son Goku - 90,000
Captain Ginyu - 120,000
Son Goku [Kaioken] - 180,000

Volume 9
Ginyu in Goku - 23,000
Kuririn - 24,500
Gohan - 27,000

Jheese - 40,000
Vegeta - 260,000

Nail - 42,000
Freeza - 220,000 (Holding back from full power)

Vegeta - 340,000
Freeza - 400,000 (Powered up)

Freeza - 530,000 (Full Power)
Freeza - 1,060,000 (2nd Form)

Gohan - 1,100,000
Kuririn - 37,000

Freeza - 1,400,000 (Powered up)
Piccolo - 1,500,000

Volume 10
Freeza - 1,700,000 (Full Power)
Piccolo - 1,850,000 (Full Power)

Freeza - 2,300,000 (Form 3)
Gohan - 2,000,000 (Enraged)

Freeza - 3,500,000 (True Form)
Vegeta - 2,500,000

Son Goku - 3,300,000seems inaccurate according to my DBZ beckett book Gokus power during the fight with Frieza is only 300,000

Freeza - 6,000,000 (50%)
Son Goku [Kaioken x20] - 6,600,000

Son Goku [Kamehameha] - 5,500,000

Volume 11
Piccolo - 2,800,000
Genki Dama - 8,000,000

Super Goku - 11,500,000 15,000,000

Freeza - 8,400,000 (70%)
Freeza - 12,000,000 (100%)

Freeza - 10,000,000 (Battle Worn)

Volume 12
Cyborg Freeza - 6,500,000
King Cold - 4,800,000

Trunks - 5 (Supressed)
Super Trunks - 11,500,000

Super Goku - 13,500,000

Volume 13
Yamcha - 58,000

Nineteen - 4,000,000
Super Goku - 7,500,000

Nineteen - 7,000,000 (Post-Kamehameha)
Super Goku - 6,000,000

Super Vegeta - 16,500,000
Nineteen - 8,500,000

Super Vegeta [Big Bang Attack] - 14,000,000
Super Vegeta - 9,000,000 (After Defeating Nineteen)

Twenty - 10,000,000
Piccolo - 13,000,000

Volume 14
Eighteen - 23,000,000
Super Vegeta - 16,500,000

Super Trunks - 14,000,000
Piccolo - 13,000,000
Tenshinhan - 950,000
Seventeen - 28,000,000

Cell - 15,000,000
Piccolo - 22,000,000

Volume 15
Seventeen - 28,000,000
Piccolo - 28,000,000

Cell - 34,000,000
Sixteen - 34,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 47,000,000

Volume 16
Ultra Vegeta - 62,000,000
Ultra Trunks - 60,000,000

Perfect Cell - 90,000,000
Ultra Vegeta [Final Flash] - 125,000,000

Volume 17
Ultra Trunks 2 - 85,000,000
Perfect Cell - 90,000,000
Ultra Trunks 2 - 120,000,000 (Full Power)

Super Goku - 65,000,000

Mister Satan - 8

Volume 18
Full Power Super Goku - 140,000,000
Perfect Cell - 145,000,000

Super Goku [Warp Kamehameha] - 190,000,000

Full Power Super Gohan - 150,000,000
Perfect Cell - 165,000,000

Cell Juniors - 145,000,000
Ultra Vegeta - 125,000,000
Ultra Trunks - 115,000,000
Piccolo - 78,000,000

Super Gohan 2 - 300,000,000

Volume 19
Super Gohan 2 - 300,000,000
Cell Juniors - 145,000,000

Full Power Perfect Cell - 180,000,000
Buff Perfect Cell - 220,000,000
Imperfect Cell - 47,000,000

Super Perfect Cell - 225,000,000
Super Gohan 2 - 200,000,000 (Injured)

Super Perfect Cell [Kamehameha] - 350,000,000
Super Gohan 2 [Kamehameha] - 345,000,000


Great Saiyaman

Super Gohan - 78,000,000
Great Saiyaman - 19,500,000

Videl - 8

Super Goten - 67,000,000

World Tournament
Son Goten - 17,500,000
Trunks Briefs - 20,000,000

Super Goten - 70,000,000
Super Trunks - 80,000,000

Kuririn - 2,300,000

Piccolo - 16,000,000
Kaioshin - 45,000,000

Videl - 9
Spopovich - 16

Gohan - 25,000,000
Super Gohan - 100,000,000
Super Gohan 2 - 200,000,000

Kibito - 35,000,000

Babidi's Spaceship
Vegeta - 70,000,000
Pui Pui - 6,000,000

Yakon - 48,000,000
Son Goku - 60,000,000
Super Goku - 180,000,000

Dabura - 250,000,000
Super Gohan 2 - 250,000,000

Majin Vegeta - 360,000,000
Super Goku 2 - 360,000,000


The Hatching
Majin Buu - 600,000,000

Super Gohan 2 - 250,000,000
Dabura - 170,000,000 (Injured)
Kaioshin - 45,000,000
Majin Vegeta - 360,000,000

Majin Vegeta [Final Explosion] - 800,000,000

Super Goku 3 - 1,080,000,000
Majin Buu - 850,000,000

Gotenks - 400,000,000
Majin Buu - 1,000,000,000

Super Gotenks - 1,200,000,000

Fusion
Evil Buu - 720,000,000
Mister Buu - 400,000,000

Super Buu - 4,000,000,000

Gotenks - 500,000,000
Super Gotenks - 1,500,000,000
Super Gotenks 3 - 4,500,000,000

Son Gohan - 5,200,000,000

Super Buu Gotenks - 6,000,000,000
Super Buu Piccolo - 4,050,000,000
Super Buu Gohan - 6,700,000,000

Vegito - 26,000,000,000

Evil Kid Buu
Super Buu - 4,000,000,000
Buff Buu - 4,600,000,000
Kid Buu - 720,000,000

Super Goku 3 - 720,000,000
Super Vegeta 2 - 280,000,000
Mister Buu - 400,000,000

Genki Dama - 22,000,000,000

Son Goku - 90,000,000
Uub - 12 (Relaxed)
Uub - 85,000,000 (Enraged)

Everything after Trunks fight with frieza is pure speculation as there were no Scouters in use after that to properly read any power levels. Even so I would say that it keeps in good pattern and the powers seem to increase at a fair rate while not making huge jumps between fights. However I don't think anybodys power in the series went over a billion aside from maybe Vegito. It just seems illogical to me. You'll notice that according to this list Gokus power level at SSJ3 is much stronger during the fight with fat buu than during the fight will kid buu, How did he get weaker? I would assume it might be because Goku at SSJ3 during the fight with fat buu was dead, therefore not putting as much strain on his body where as the alive goku exhausted to much energy to transform and then even more so during the fight with Kid Buu

What do you guys make of these powers?

My source for these power levels are from http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels(new).htm

The ones I corrected I got from my DBZ Beckett book which list most of the main characters fighting levels from the 22nd tenckaichi budoukia tournament up to Trunks fight with Frieza

 

[victornov]

I just want to say only one thing that i like this show but not too much because naruto take first place in my liking list about anime shows..

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

But see, here's the thing. Goku didn't have this shitting bricks moment until the heat of the battle - which was roughly near the end of Cell entirely. Yet, his shitting bricks moment disappears right after Gohan turns SS2 -thereinby, reducing his worry and the threat that Cell posed.

When Gohan went SSJ2, Goku was face down in the dirt after having a Cell Jr beat ten sacks of shit out of him. Plus when Cell was going to blow up, THAT was a pretty HUGE threat right there don't you think? And when Cell came back again, he was equal to Gohan in power, so no i don't think Goku was any less worried.

But prior to this momment, Cell was never really viewed as a threat to the Z-fighters in specific. After all, his purpose was to become complete - not kill Goku (etc).

No his purpose was to defeat the Z-Fighters BY becoming complete. There's a massive long audio message from Gero to Cell in his bio-chamber that says exactly that.

And even when he became complete, he had multiple chances to kill all of the Z-fighters, but never did.

As did Frieza, so....... how was Frieza a bigger threat again?

Therefore, based on all this - and the fact that Goku often times payed no mind to Cell's power, I can only conclude that the threat Cell made was not as credible as the one by Frieza.

No, no, no, no, no. Goku knew based on experience, combined with things he saw Gohan do in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, that Gohan had not only caught up to him, but had the potential to surpass him also. He also knew that they only way he was likely to surpass him, was if his inner rage was awakened.

He assumed that because Goku and Vegeta love heading face first into fights without a seconds thought, that Gohan would eventually get desperate as Cell pounded on him, and release his inner rage.

Gohan himself realised this as well. He even basically says to Cell 'yeah, i can't beat you, but if you keep pushing me like my Dad wants you too, i'll probably wipe you out, whether i choose to or not.'

It wasn't until #16's head was thrown into the fray that Gohan went SSJ2, when a kindred spirit encouraged him to use his rage to protect life and his subsequential death afterward.

You can't sit there and say that Cell wasn't a massive threat to the Z-Fighters when his Cell Jrs incapacitated all of them bar Vegeta and Trunks, and that was only because they stopped of their own accord.

When Piccolo speaks to Goku, Goku immediately demands a Senzu bean and is ready to lead an all out assault on Cell before Gohan gets killed. The only reason that doesn't actually occur, is because Cell sends his Cell Jrs, NOT because Goku calms down again.

 

[Dzone]

Tbh I dont care about the evolution of Goku... DRAGON BALL Z WAS EPIC. So many EPIC sagas F*** you Naruto fans

 

[lenguy]

How about this. Drahonball/Z/GT most painful moments. What made you Cringe and say Oh god that's gotta hurt. For me its simple.

[YOUTUBE]eCXPRAuSnFY[/YOUTUBE]

The first time Goku and Vegeta lock up and my pick for most painful moment is the first 2 minutes. Goku just completely rapes Vegeta and makes him his bitch. Its also the one fight scene that still sticks out on my mind the most from when I first saw even up until today. Just vicious on all levels.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

When Gohan went SSJ2, Goku was face down in the dirt after having a Cell Jr beat ten sacks of shit out of him. Plus when Cell was going to blow up, THAT was a pretty HUGE threat right there don't you think? And when Cell came back again, he was equal to Gohan in power, so no i don't think Goku was any less worried.

When Gohan turned SS2, Goku lost the worry; it wasn't until Cell was going to blow himself up, that the shitting bricks feeling returned. Yet, as you said, it continued all the way until Gohan finished off Cell with the Kamehameha. I'm not disagreeing with any of this as I saw it too. (years ago).

But let's look at the big difference between Cell and Frieza. Time. How long did Cell's threat last? To my understanding it was near the end of Cell entuirely; whereas the threat that Frieza had on the Z-fighters started since the very beginning starting from Raditz (which I'll explain in a bit).

No his purpose was to defeat the Z-Fighters BY becoming complete. There's a massive long audio message from Gero to Cell in his bio-chamber that says exactly that.

Uh, so what? Was that what Cell did? As explained by Trunbks, Cell's intention was to destroy the Earth; yet, he procastinated so-much-so that the threat seems so very minimal. Not to mention the fact that Cell could have easily been destroyed by Vegeta or Trunks when they were out of the hyperbolic Time Chamber. What threat did Cell pose in his second form? I'll tell you: NOTHING.

Now, in contrast: Frieza. No one, not even Vegeta nor Goku matched up to the power of the almight Frieza - at least not until Goku became Super Saiyan - and even still, it was a tough battle due to 100% max power from Frieza.

As did Frieza, so....... how was Frieza a bigger threat again?

Simple. The hype; the build; the events - these all showed that Frieza was by far the biggest threat. As I explained in my first post, Frieza was the cause for so many events that the Z-fighters faced.

Let's start at the beginning.

Frieaza was this alimghty ruler that, in a way, was like the King of the universe. Every species, including the Saiyans were at the mercy of his feet. They, including Vegeta, had to do exactly what Frieza wanted or else there would be dire consequences. So, unable to do anything against that, they had to abide by all of Frieza's decisions. Eventually, the saiyans - specifically King Vegeta and Bardock - grew tired of this and thus planned a coup de'tat against Frieza. Unfortunatelt, they failed miserably. Ultimately, all the saiyans were destroyed [due to Frieza fearing that they would one day become a threat].

Nevertheless, four saiyans survived. Three of which had to continue to abide by Frieza's reign unable to do anything about it. Roughly 25 years later, Raditz comes to Earth because he (along with Nappa and Vegeta) were in need of some assistance in order to conquer a planet. Goku refused to go thus Raditz kidnapped Gohan's son. This there is the first threat that the Z-fighters faced in DBZ. But why did they face this threat? To the naked eye, one would jump at the chance to say Raditz of course. But upon further investigation would it not be Frieza that was the cause of this threat? I mean, Frieza was the ruler to which Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta were only followers. Frieza's the one that wanted planets conquered, not the saiyans. The saiyans just loved to fight; it was in their blood to do so. This was just a convinient coincidence.

But anyways, if we go by the theory that Frieza was the indirect cause of Raditz's invasion, then it is only logical that it's Frieza's reason that Vegeta and Nappa came to Earth in search of the DBZ's. Had Frieza never destroyed the saiyans, than chances are, Raditz would have never gone looking for Goku. With that never hapenning, Vegeta and Nappa would have never been aware of the Dragonballs and thus would never have come to Earth. Ultimately, the threat that the saiyans posed in the beginning of the series would have never occured. So again, all this threat was because of Frieza and his dimented ways.

But let's not stop there. Let's go to Namek. When Bulma, Gohan, and Krillin were in Namek they faced a good amount of threat. Directly, the causes of them being in danger were due to Zarbon, Dadoria, the henchmen, and of course, the Ginyu Force. But upon further thought: Why were Krillin's, Gohan's, Bulma's, Vegeta's life put in danger to begin with? Oh yea, because they stood in the way of the almighty Frieza from collecting the Dragonballs; thus becoming immortal. In other words, the reason the Z-fighters even fought these Frieza minons were because [indirectly] it's what Frieza ordered these minons to do.

Is this all clicking in your head or should I keep going? Once the Z-fighters defeated all of the minons, it was now Frieza's turn to step in. Needless to say, none of the Z-fighters - not even Goku were a match for the almighty Frieza. In no way did they have a chance to defeat him until Goku became Super Saiyan. And even still, the victor was very debateable due to their power levels being so evenly matched. Eventually, Goku DID defeat Frieza, but not killed him. So what happens? Frieza comes to Earth seeking revenge; thus, putting the Z-fighters in danger once again.

Yup. Frieza caused all of this. But there's something that I forgot to mention. I stated the build, but let me now explain the hype that made Frieza the biggest threat. Frieza, from the very beginning, was hyped up to be this almighty power that no one ever dare cross paths with. Whether it be filler characters, King Kai, his own minons, the saiyans, Vegeta, the sensing of power levels ability, the Nameks - all of this hyped up the threat that Frieza posed to the Z-fighters along with the entire Universe.

^This is EXACTLY why Frieza was the biggest threat in the DBZ universe.

No, no, no, no, no. Goku knew based on experience, combined with things he saw Gohan do in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, that Gohan had not only caught up to him, but had the potential to surpass him also. He also knew that they only way he was likely to surpass him, was if his inner rage was awakened.

Uh-huh. My previous quote still stands...

Goku was never worried about Cell because he KNEW thatGohan would be able to take care of him. Ultimately, the threat that Cell posed was reduced.

He assumed that because Goku and Vegeta love heading face first into fights without a seconds thought, that Gohan would eventually get desperate as Cell pounded on him, and release his inner rage.

Gohan himself realised this as well. He even basically says to Cell 'yeah, i can't beat you, but if you keep pushing me like my Dad wants you too, i'll probably wipe you out, whether i choose to or not.'

It wasn't until #16's head was thrown into the fray that Gohan went SSJ2, when a kindred spirit encouraged him to use his rage to protect life and his subsequential death afterward.

You know, dude, all you're doing here is giving me a re-cap on what happen. This doesn't contradict my argument, nor does it strengthen your own argument about Cell being more of a threat than Frieza. How does this make Cell the bigger threat?

You can't sit there and say that Cell wasn't a massive threat [I never said this. I said that the amount of threat Cell was is reduced due to lack of Goku viweing Cell as a threat]to the Z-Fighters when his Cell Jrs incapacitated all of them bar Vegeta and Trunks, and that was only because they stopped of their own accord.

When Piccolo speaks to Goku, Goku immediately demands a Senzu bean and is ready to lead an all out assault on Cell before Gohan gets killed. The only reason that doesn't actually occur, is because Cell sends his Cell Jrs, NOT because Goku calms down again.

That's all nice and dandy, but as I said before, once Gohan turned SS2, Goku took a short breather because they were no longer in any danger because Gohan could take care of Cell with ease. Furthermore, it wasn't til Cell was about to blow himself up that Goku (and the rest of the Z-fighters) were put in danger again. Now let me dully note again that this threat Cell posed was really only strengthened towards the end of him entirely. But to contrast, the threat that Frieza posed originated from when Raditz first arrived on Earth.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Most painful moment? For me it's this without question:

[YOUTUBE]UpNR9d-2Ed4[/YOUTUBE]

Buu had always been creepy to me. His child like attitude and distinct differences to the standard DBZ villain made him unpredictable and at points, down right creepy (Faulconer's music did a great job helping that). Then he turned into Super Buu and things got even weirder. He was much more like a teen; impatient and angry. He turned his attention to Smitty, who was one of the two men responsible for killing Buu's puppy. That videos shows Smitty's fate. The music again adds to the creepiness and downright makes a nasty, creepy, painful and overall violent moment in DBZ.

 

[Chicago1989]

I'm not gonna post videos on these painful moments but I'll point out to a number of them.

• Krillin impaled by Frieza
• Android #16's head gets crushed by Cell
• King Vegeta stabs Broly as a baby
• Vegeta rips Android #19's arms off
• Babidi gets his head punched out by Majin Buu

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

When Gohan turned SS2, Goku lost the worry; it wasn't until Cell was going to blow himself up, that the shitting bricks feeling returned.

Ok, let's look at it another way. How many times did they have to remind themselves that Cell could regenerate? Just about every time they blew a part of him off. So when Cell blew himself up, they all thought he was gone and everyone was safe again...... except he came back even MORE powerful, with even better techniques, and an even better understanding of how his body worked.

When Cell and Gohan have the dueling KameHameHa, Cell is still more powerful than Gohan, it's only when all the Z-Fighters attack Cell at once and distract him, that Gohan is able to get the upper hand and win the day.

Basically if Vegeta hadn't shot him in the back as he was fighting, who knows if Gohan would have beaten Cell on his own?

So whether Goku realised it or not, Cell was a massive threat to them all.

Yet, as you said, it continued all the way until Gohan finished off Cell with the Kamehameha. I'm not disagreeing with any of this as I saw it too. (years ago).

I watched this exact part of the Cell saga 3 days ago. Of course, what i'm watching is the remastered episodes where dialogue and sequences have been changed/ommitted entirely.

But let's look at the big difference between Cell and Frieza. Time. How long did Cell's threat last? To my understanding it was near the end of Cell entuirely; whereas the threat that Frieza had on the Z-fighters started since the very beginning starting from Raditz (which I'll explain in a bit).

I'll address you're 'Raditz turning up is still a Frieze threat' in a minute. As for time, ok the Frieza saga took up like 3 seasons, and the Cell saga took up one, Cell's threat goes on for at least 3 weeks, and as for Frieza's we'll never know because it never changed from day to night on Namek, so we've literally no idea how long that ACTUALLY took them to achieve.

Uh, so what? Was that what Cell did? As explained by Trunbks, Cell's intention was to destroy the Earth; yet, he procastinated so-much-so that the threat seems so very minimal. Not to mention the fact that Cell could have easily been destroyed by Vegeta or Trunks when they were out of the hyperbolic Time Chamber. What threat did Cell pose in his second form? I'll tell you: NOTHING.

Because Piccolo fused with Kami and was able to sense Cell's presence as he absorbed civillians. If Piccolo hadn't done that, he'd have never challenged Cell one on one, and they'd all still be running around chasing Androids, only for Cell to turn up and fuck them all over anyway.

If Piccolo hadn't done anything, there'd have been no Time Chamber trip, no one would have powered up, and the world would have been fucked. You claim 2nd form Cell posed no threat? 1st from Cell killed SSJ Trunks, who HAD been in the Time Chamber. The only reason he doesn't get killed when he travels to the future again, is because he already knows Cell is going to try and kill him, whereas previously he had no idea that would happen.

Now, in contrast: Frieza. No one, not even Vegeta nor Goku matched up to the power of the almight Frieza - at least not until Goku became Super Saiyan - and even still, it was a tough battle due to 100% max power from Frieza.

See, what makes me argue this point, is that Trunks killed Frieza with 2 moves. Literally two moves, in about 5 seconds. Android 17 and 18 owned Trunks every time he faced them. 1st Form Cell was stronger than both 17 and 18, so therefore Frieza couldn't be as powerful as Cell, so therefore, he couldn't have been a bigger threat.

Nevertheless, four saiyans survived. Three of which had to continue to abide by Frieza's reign unable to do anything about it. Roughly 25 years later, Raditz comes to Earth because he (along with Nappa and Vegeta) were in need of some assistance in order to conquer a planet. Goku refused to go thus Raditz kidnapped Gohan's son.

The first two seasons of DBZ are very all over the place when it comes to continuity. Take Vegeta's hair and armour colour changing half way through a saga as an example. A better example is that when Vegeta and Nappa are on their way to Earth, they stop on a planet ruled by a tyrant. After freeing the populace, they fly away, stop and blow the planet up.

So therefore, Vegeta had the power to destory planets with one wave of his finger and no standing there looking constipated as he charged up.

So if they had that power, why would they need Goku to back them up? Furthermore, why would Vegeta send Raditz to get Goku when Vegeta spits at Goku's help throughout the series afterward?

This there is the first threat that the Z-fighters faced in DBZ. But why did they face this threat? To the naked eye, one would jump at the chance to say Raditz of course. But upon further investigation would it not be Frieza that was the cause of this threat?

I mean, Frieza was the ruler to which Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta were only followers. Frieza's the one that wanted planets conquered, not the saiyans. The saiyans just loved to fight; it was in their blood to do so. This was just a convinient coincidence.

Raditz and Nappa answered to Vegeta and Vegeta only. Yes Vegeta answered to Frieza and co, but not Nappa and Raditz. They encourage him to betray Frieza on one occassion. Their loyalty is to the Prince only.

Plus when Nappa and Vegeta go to Earth, that's based on their own selfish desires. Did you see either of them ask permission from Frieza before they went to get the Dragonballs? No, they just up and went without hesitation, hence why Frieza wants Vegeta dead as soon as they find out he's on Namek.

But anyways, if we go by the theory that Frieza was the indirect cause of Raditz's invasion, then it is only logical that it's Frieza's reason that Vegeta and Nappa came to Earth in search of the DBZ's. Had Frieza never destroyed the saiyans, than chances are, Raditz would have never gone looking for Goku. With that never hapenning, Vegeta and Nappa would have never been aware of the Dragonballs and thus would never have come to Earth. Ultimately, the threat that the saiyans posed in the beginning of the series would have never occured. So again, all this threat was because of Frieza and his dimented ways.

But let's not stop there. Let's go to Namek. When Bulma, Gohan, and Krillin were in Namek they faced a good amount of threat. Directly, the causes of them being in danger were due to Zarbon, Dadoria, the henchmen, and of course, the Ginyu Force. But upon further thought: Why were Krillin's, Gohan's, Bulma's, Vegeta's life put in danger to begin with? Oh yea, because they stood in the way of the almighty Frieza from collecting the Dragonballs; thus becoming immortal. In other words, the reason the Z-fighters even fought these Frieza minons were because [indirectly] it's what Frieza ordered these minons to do.

Frieza was barely aware that they were even there. Between Gohan and Krillin rescuing Dende and Frieza turning up as Porunga fades away, Frieza had forgotten all about them. So he didn't order his henchmen to even touch the Z-Fighters, only Vegeta.

Did he send those two cronies after Bulma, or did they just turn up?

Eventually, Goku DID defeat Frieza, but not killed him.

Technically Frieza killed himself with his own energy discs. Goku didn't even touch him.

Frieza comes to Earth seeking revenge; thus, putting the Z-fighters in danger once again.

For about as long as it takes to drink a can of coke.

Yup. Frieza caused all of this. But there's something that I forgot to mention. I stated the build, but let me now explain the hype that made Frieza the biggest threat. Frieza, from the very beginning, was hyped up to be this almighty power that no one ever dare cross paths with. Whether it be filler characters, King Kai, his own minons, the saiyans, Vegeta, the sensing of power levels ability, the Nameks - all of this hyped up the threat that Frieza posed to the Z-fighters along with the entire Universe.

^This is EXACTLY why Frieza was the biggest threat in the DBZ universe.



Uh-huh. My previous quote still stands...

Goku was never worried about Cell because he KNEW thatGohan would be able to take care of him. Ultimately, the threat that Cell posed was reduced.

Yeah but he didn't KNOW anything. He knew Gohan's power would increase. He didn't know he'd jump up to the next level of SSJ. Hell, he didn't even know there WAS a next level of SSJ. Goku was fuckin lucky that that was the end result otherwise Cell would have raped them all. Goku said that Cell was far superior to him, and that Gohan pissed off was their best chance at beating Cell. He certainly didn't know for definite that Gohan would win.

You know, dude, all you're doing here is giving me a re-cap on what happen. This doesn't contradict my argument, nor does it strengthen your own argument about Cell being more of a threat than Frieza. How does this make Cell the bigger threat?

How else am i going to prove my point unless i go over what happened. Why the fuck did you feel the need to paraphrase the entire Saiyan/Namek/Frieza saga for me when i've obviously watched the entire series a LOT more recently than you? Why am i bothering to try to have a civil discussion when all i'm getting is a load of attitude from you?

That's all nice and dandy, but as I said before, once Gohan turned SS2, Goku took a short breather because they were no longer in any danger because Gohan could take care of Cell with ease.

Coulda, woulda, didn't.

Furthermore, it wasn't til Cell was about to blow himself up that Goku (and the rest of the Z-fighters) were put in danger again. Now let me dully note again that this threat Cell posed was really only strengthened towards the end of him entirely.

Just because Goku didn't know the extent of Cell's power, doesn't mean Cell wasn't a threat. When Goku was going all out, Cell was barely breaking a sweat, so how if Goku didn't know the full extent of Cell's power, how could he possibly know that Cell was going to lose to Gohan?

Goku was over-confident in his son's abilities. Lucky for him he's the only one that died as a result.

But to contrast, the threat that Frieza posed originated from when Raditz first arrived on Earth.

I'm not accepting this as an argument. Otherwise i might as well say that Cell's threat started way back when Dr. Gero turned up.

 

[Lion's Sacrifice]

Okay, this makes my day. Not only is there a Dragon Ball z thread, but people are arguing about it! Hell yes! Easily my favorite show as a kid.

Now as for my most painful moment. Has to be we Goku defeated Frezia, when Frezia cut himself in half. Why? While this isn't the most painful physically, as being killed or being beheaded. To me this was the most painful overall. Look Frezia ha been calling Goku nothing more than a monkey, and here he is kicking his ass, and just caused him to cut himself in half. That to me was awesome!

 

[lenguy]

Okay, let me in on this action.

See, what makes me argue this point, is that Trunks killed Frieza with 2 moves. Literally two moves, in about 5 seconds. Android 17 and 18 owned Trunks every time he faced them. 1st Form Cell was stronger than both 17 and 18, so therefore Frieza couldn't be as powerful as Cell, so therefore, he couldn't have been a bigger threat.

Thats because over the span of the fight with Goku and Frieza, 3 years had passed. It only makes sense that trunks would have defeated frieza so easily. I mean look how trunks tested Goku. He easily defended himself from trunks attacks effortlessly with just one finger. If he could do that to trunks what do you think Goku would of been capable of doing to frieza? 3 years had passed meaning in that time goku was off trying to prefect his Super Saiyan transformation because he was not able to control it. Therefore he was training and getting much stronger not to mention the fact that a sayians power grow after every major fight. Its only natural that the saiyans powers would far exceed that of frieza once one has mastered the super sayian form. I doubt Friezas powers would have increased very much at all.



As for cell. Most of the Z-fighters(namely trunks vegeta goku and gohan) May not have been stronger but I wouldn't say they were vastly out matched. You saw how well goku did against cell? Those two were dead even just cell was a little more powerful. Just look at when goku gave cell a senzu bean..would he have done that against frieza? I highly doubt that as frieza had all the Z fighters out classed in every way. Goku could hold his own, gohan could also hold his own and I bet trunks and vegeta would have done equally as well, hell if they all teamed up I bet they could of taken cell down. This simply wasn't the case with frieza. All the Z fighters with their best and combined moves couldn't even make frieza flinch. Thats how much of a gap there was with friezas power and the rest of the Z fighters. Not even Gokus ultimate attack the spirit bomb could keep the almighty tryant down and believe me...that's saying something. even injured from the attack, freiza still possessed enough force to take them down without much effort.

The Z fighters at least had some resources to combat cell with. Just imagin if Goku and Gohan had spent that extra day in the time chamber? They could of easily destroyed cell but goku felt it was unnecessary because he knew gohan possessed an hidden power that far exceeded anyone else and he knew that if cell backed him into a corner he would have no choice but to unleash it. That brings me to vegeta. What if vegeta had remained where he was instead of foolishly attacking cell after cell took out trunks? What if he had just stayed put and prevent gohans injury? If he had then gohans power would not have been severely crippled and in a slug fest, gohan would have put cell away for sure.

Overall at the times of their respective encounters. Frieza was by far the much bigger threat simpley because of the enormous power gap between him and the rest of the Z fighters. If frieza had not killed Krillin and solely focused his attack on goku..they would have all met their ends on that day.

 

[lenguy]

To correct myself. I said 3 years had passed since the initial bout between goku and frieza. I meant just one year..I was thinking of the time line between trunks arrival and the androids.

 

[Chicago1989]

Here we go; I'm gonna put up my own DBZ question for you guys - Do you feel that Vegeta should have gotten more credit as a character? Was he underrated and underused? Do you think ANYONE ELSE deserved credit?

Personally, I think Vegeta should have gotten more credit. For being the "Prince of all Saiyans", wouldn't you think that he would've gotten better kills than just most of the Ginyu Force and an Android?

I think he should've ended the Buu Saga when he sacrificed himself. I'm tired of seeing Goku being the one everyone depends on when it comes to fighting a strong enemy. Nobody depends on the Prince, nobody depends on Vegeta. I hate seeing Vegeta being used as a "welcome mat", only for Goku to take his spot. Agree or disagree?

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

Do you feel that Vegeta should have gotten more credit as a character? Was he underrated and underused? Do you think ANYONE ELSE deserved credit?

Yes. While he wasn't underrated, Vegeta was definitely underused. If you look at the list of people he killed as a Z-Warrior, here's what you get...


Cui
Dodoria
Appule
Zarbon
Guldo
Burter
Recoome
Jeice
Freiza Soldiers
Android 19
Pui Pui
Android 15

Tell me, who is the most threatening person on that list? I'd most likely say Androids 15 and 19. None of the people Vegeta has killed are overly impressive. He hasn't killed any major villain, although he did assist Gohan in killing Cell, and the destruction of the Big Gete Star which subsequently killed Cooler. Still, nobody on that list stands out at you. They're all basically minor characters who we see for a few episodes (With the exception of 15 and 19). When you look at people like Goku and Gohan, they have many bigger names killed. People like Freiza, Buu, and Cell. So yes, I feel that Vegeta was underused. Yet despite being underused, I feel that he became a better character than Goku over time.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Ok, let's look at it another way. How many times did they have to remind themselves that Cell could regenerate? Just about every time they blew a part of him off. So when Cell blew himself up, they all thought he was gone and everyone was safe again...... except he came back even MORE powerful, with even better techniques, and an even better understanding of how his body worked.

When Cell and Gohan have the dueling KameHameHa, Cell is still more powerful than Gohan, it's only when all the Z-Fighters attack Cell at once and distract him, that Gohan is able to get the upper hand and win the day.

Basically if Vegeta hadn't shot him in the back as he was fighting, who knows if Gohan would have beaten Cell on his own?

So whether Goku realised it or not, Cell was a massive threat to them all.

Yes, but up to what point was this threat distinguished fluently? The truth is, much to the reality that was spread amongst the Z-fighters, the threat Cell posed wasn't initiated until a bit before that point in time that you are discussing. Meaning, prior to these moments, the Z-fighters faced no real threat because Cell had no intention to kill them yet. Cell - all he wanted to do was become complete. Afterwards, he wanted to destroy the Earth. But when it came to becoming a threat to the Z-fighters specifically, this wasn't initiated to once the Cell Games began, in which Goku fought Cell.

And even still, Goku didn't fear Cell. It wasn't until Piccolo gave Goku that realization that fear started to incapacitate Goku. And thus, comes into play what you said.

I watched this exact part of the Cell saga 3 days ago. Of course, what i'm watching is the remastered episodes where dialogue and sequences have been changed/ommitted entirely.

Damn, well someone sure has the advantage here seeing as how he has everything fresh in his memory.

On a side note, I started rewatching the entire Dragonball series (DB, DBZ DBGT) from beginning to end back in August. Unfortunately, I'm still in the midst of the Frieza saga.

Wait...

I'll address you're 'Raditz turning up is still a Frieze threat' in a minute. As for time, ok the Frieza saga took up like 3 seasons, and the Cell saga took up one, Cell's threat goes on for at least 3 weeks, and as for Frieza's we'll never know because it never changed from day to night on Namek, so we've literally no idea how long that ACTUALLY took them to achieve.

3 weeks? Is that really how long it was? I coulda sworn it was 2 week. The last week is the week of the Cell games. 1 day from Vegeta training with Trunks. Before that, it wasn't too long of a time interval..

Because Piccolo fused with Kami and was able to sense Cell's presence as he absorbed civillians. If Piccolo hadn't done that, he'd have never challenged Cell one on one, and they'd all still be running around chasing Androids, only for Cell to turn up and fuck them all over anyway.

If Piccolo hadn't done anything, there'd have been no Time Chamber trip, no one would have powered up, and the world would have been fucked.

Wrong, sir. If you recall, Piccolo wasn't the only one who was able to sense Cell's presence. He may have been the first, but I distinctly remember Goku too had sensed Cell's presence once he had woken up from his long sleep if not during his sleep. Remember: Piccolo never told Goku about Cell; Goku inferred it from the very beginning. Or do you not remember the hilarious "Kamicolo" part? At this point, Goku already had in mind that he wanted to go to the Hyperbolic time chamber and train. He didn't need for Piccolo to be aware of Cell - Goku would have told all the Z-fighters about Cell if they hadn't already known about him.

You claim 2nd form Cell posed no threat? 1st from Cell killed SSJ Trunks, who HAD been in the Time Chamber. The only reason he doesn't get killed when he travels to the future again, is because he already knows Cell is going to try and kill him, whereas previously he had no idea that would happen.

But that didn't happen now did it? As you said, Trunks was aware of what was going to happen; thus, was able to avoid said consequences. In other words, there was no threat. The Trunks that did die, though - that isn't necissarily part of the Z-fighters that we're discussing. The trunks that died was in an alternate reality. The ones we're talking about are the ones that live to see GT.

See, what makes me argue this point, is that Trunks killed Frieza with 2 moves. Literally two moves, in about 5 seconds. Android 17 and 18 owned Trunks every time he faced them. 1st Form Cell was stronger than both 17 and 18, so therefore Frieza couldn't be as powerful as Cell, so therefore, he couldn't have been a bigger threat.

Wrong again. When we're comparing the amount of threat a villian posed, we're not comparing power-levels as that would be an unbalanced line of options. Going by that theory, we'd both have to conclude that Buu was the greater threat because he was WAY stronger than both Cell and Frieza.

When you compare the amount of threat a villian posed, you have to take into account everything that they did, and everything that they didn't do - not powerlevels as that would fuck up the entire options and make the question asked by Stinger too much of a biased question.

The first two seasons of DBZ are very all over the place when it comes to continuity. Take Vegeta's hair and armour colour changing half way through a saga as an example. A better example is that when Vegeta and Nappa are on their way to Earth, they stop on a planet ruled by a tyrant. After freeing the populace, they fly away, stop and blow the planet up.

So therefore, Vegeta had the power to destory planets with one wave of his finger and no standing there looking constipated as he charged up.

So if they had that power, why would they need Goku to back them up? Furthermore, why would Vegeta send Raditz to get Goku when Vegeta spits at Goku's help throughout the series afterward?

Because Vegeta was too proud to recieve any help from Goku. But not because he was a fellow saiyan, but becasuse Vegeta saw Goku as a rival that was stronger than him. In Vegeta's mind, if he were to accept Goku's help, than that would be like admitting that Goku is stronger than him - which as we both know, he would never do that. In addition, the difference between this and when Vegeta sent Radditz for Goku was that Vegeta went with the idealism that he was WAY stronger than Goku and thus, his pride wouldn't be hurt if he asked Goku for help.

But as for the story having plot holes: yes, that is true. The continuity is all over the place. However, shit is all over the place in the anime - not the manga. In the manga, Vegeta and Nappa never go to that planet nor does Vegeta's outfit change. The manga - which is the true version to the Dragonball Z story is straight-forward and does not contain these plot holes. In other words, my previous statement still stands. The manga is my proof that it still stands.

Raditz and Nappa answered to Vegeta and Vegeta only. Yes Vegeta answered to Frieza and co, but not Nappa and Raditz. They encourage him to betray Frieza on one occassion. Their loyalty is to the Prince only.

Fallacy. If you're a store manager at a restuarant, your employees answer to you correct? But what happens when the market coach (the boss of the store manager) visits your restuarant? Do not the employees answer to him because he is at a higher standing than the store manager? If the market coach were to tell one of your employees to do something, they would have to do what he told them to do regardless of what the store manager said before hand.

That's the way business is and that's the way things were with Frieza. Yes, Raditz and Nappa answered to Vegeta, but if Frieza commanded Raditz and Nappa to do something, then they would have to do it because Frieza is in a higher standing than Vegeta is.

Plus when Nappa and Vegeta go to Earth, that's based on their own selfish desires. Did you see either of them ask permission from Frieza before they went to get the Dragonballs? No, they just up and went without hesitation, hence why Frieza wants Vegeta dead as soon as they find out he's on Namek.

You're missing the point. As I stated in the previous post, had Frieza never destroyed the planet Namek, chances are Raditz would have never gone in search for Goku and Vegeta and Nappa would have never came for the Dragonballs.

Do you see what happened there? It was a chain of events. Frieza makes the Saiyans his space pirate army -> Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta -> shit happens -> Frieza orders the saiyans to destroy a planet -> Raditz goes in search for Goku because his assistance is needed-> Vegeta hears about the Dragonballs -> Vegeta and Nappa go to Earth.

Frieza was barely aware that they were even there. Between Gohan and Krillin rescuing Dende and Frieza turning up as Porunga fades away, Frieza had forgotten all about them. So he didn't order his henchmen to even touch the Z-Fighters, only Vegeta.

Wrong. It was because of the nuisance that the earthlings and Vegeta were that Frieza became so pissed at Dadoria, Zarbon - ultimately, it's the reason he called in the Ginyu Force - so that they could take care of the Z-fighters. Shit even got to the point where Frieza had to step in himself and go talk to Guru himself because he began to question the ability of his henchmen.

Did he send those two cronies after Bulma, or did they just turn up?

Those guys just turned up. However let me put it to you in a way that you'll understand why it is that I'm arguing that Frieza was the main threat.

Frieza was the head-hancho of all the goons on Namek. He ordered those goons that if they were to see any non-Namek creatures, then they had the right to kill said beasts. Going by this, had it not been for Frieza's orders, the goons would have never attacked Krilllin and Gohan.

Technically Frieza killed himself with his own energy discs. Goku didn't even touch him.

That didn't kill Frieza. Frieza was still alive at the time when the destructo discs hit him. He begged Goku for help and thus recieved some of his enegrgy. When Frieza used that energy to attack Goku, Goku deflected the blast with his own energy wave. yet, despite such attempts, Frieza STILL didn't die. Not even after Namek bew up did he die.

For about as long as it takes to drink a can of coke.

How much were the Z-fighters shitting their pants because they sensed Frieza's powerlevel drawing near?

That's all I need to counteract your statement.

Yeah but he didn't KNOW anything. He knew Gohan's power would increase. He didn't know he'd jump up to the next level of SSJ. Hell, he didn't even know there WAS a next level of SSJ. Goku was fuckin lucky that that was the end result otherwise Cell would have raped them all. Goku said that Cell was far superior to him, and that Gohan pissed off was their best chance at beating Cell. He certainly didn't know for definite that Gohan would win.

Yes he did. He specifically told Piccolo that what he saw in the time Chamber was enough to warrant him to believe that Gohan would be enough to kill Cell. Ultimately, it's the reason why he had no fear of Cell.

How else am i going to prove my point unless i go over what happened. Why the fuck did you feel the need to paraphrase the entire Saiyan/Namek/Frieza saga for me when i've obviously watched the entire series a LOT more recently than you? Why am i bothering to try to have a civil discussion when all i'm getting is a load of attitude from you?

I paraphrased what I did to prove my point. In every long paragraph that I wrote, I always tied my information to the point I was making. As it is supposed to be in every persuasive piece of writing that you make: Every single time you state facts, you have to write down HOW that connects to the prompt at hand - and that's what I did. Forgive me if I wrote a bit too much, but I felt I needed to be as specific as possible to prove my point.

Also, please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to come off as an ass-hole. Far from it. If what I said came off as rather pissy, forgive me. It wasn't my intention in giving you attitude. I was merely stating that the re-cap that you gave me does not make me believe you.

Coulda, woulda, didn't.

Just because Goku didn't know the extent of Cell's power, doesn't mean Cell wasn't a threat. When Goku was going all out, Cell was barely breaking a sweat, so how if Goku didn't know the full extent of Cell's power, how could he possibly know that Cell was going to lose to Gohan?

Goku was over-confident in his son's abilities. Lucky for him he's the only one that died as a result.

Yes, but the thing is, is even if Goku was over-confident in Gohan, that idn't matter. At the end of the day, Gohan was able to save the day (for the momment) and thus reduced the amount of threat that Cell posed to the Z-fighters.

I'm not accepting this as an argument. Otherwise i might as well say that Cell's threat started way back when Dr. Gero turned up.

I believe Martin Luther King said it best: "What affects one directly, affects everyone else indirectly" In other words, just because Frieza did not directly do said harm to the Z-fighters, does not mean that he wasn't the cause of it. Everything his henchmen did was because of him. He was the cause of everything - he was the one that ordered everyone around.

As far as the hypothetical argument you mention above goes, to an extent, it could very well be argued that the biggest threat the Z-fighters faced was not Frieza, nor Cell. hell, it wasn't even Buu. No. The biggest threat would have been Dr. Gero...

Luckily the prompt was of the three (Frieza, Cell, Buu), who was the bigger threat?"

Lastly, I want to note that if I come off as a jerk or an asshole in any way, I am sorry. it was not my intention to expose myself that way - it's just the way that I debate. This has been one hell of a debate thus far and await your reply.

 

[Chicago1989]

Yes. While he wasn't underrated, Vegeta was definitely underused. If you look at the list of people he killed as a Z-Warrior, here's what you get...


Cui
Dodoria
Appule
Zarbon
Guldo
Burter
Recoome
Jeice
Freiza Soldiers
Android 19
Pui Pui
Android 15

Tell me, who is the most threatening person on that list? I'd most likely say Androids 15 and 19. None of the people Vegeta has killed are overly impressive. He hasn't killed any major villain, although he did assist Gohan in killing Cell, and the destruction of the Big Gete Star which subsequently killed Cooler. Still, nobody on that list stands out at you. They're all basically minor characters who we see for a few episodes (With the exception of 15 and 19). When you look at people like Goku and Gohan, they have many bigger names killed. People like Freiza, Buu, and Cell. So yes, I feel that Vegeta was underused. Yet despite being underused, I feel that he became a better character than Goku over time.

That's a good point, Stinger. I do think Vegeta is one of the reasons as to why Dragon Ball Z became very successful and he always played a big role in the show and movies, but he was underused. He should've gotten the opportunity to kill at least 1 major villain, but of course, it's Goku this, Goku that. It sucks to think about it since it's too late, but it's one of those things that you wish you changed.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Yes, but up to what point was this threat distinguished fluently? The truth is, much to the reality that was spread amongst the Z-fighters, the threat Cell posed wasn't initiated until a bit before that point in time that you are discussing. Meaning, prior to these moments, the Z-fighters faced no real threat because Cell had no intention to kill them yet. Cell - all he wanted to do was become complete. Afterwards, he wanted to destroy the Earth. But when it came to becoming a threat to the Z-fighters specifically, this wasn't initiated to once the Cell Games began, in which Goku fought Cell.

See my interpretation was, Cell has two commands in his programming. 1. Become complete and 2. kill the Z-fighters. He nearly didn't achieve part 1 because Vegeta and Trunks had prepared for him. Vegeta's pride obviously got the better of him, and he let Cell become complete.

Dr. Gero obviously never said to Cell, 'don't be stupid enough to hold a tournament' so Cell decided to carry out his creator's wishes in the most flashy way possible, by humiliating Earth's greatest warriors one at a time.

Basically, Vegeta and Frieza's pride/arrogance caused Cell to do something really stupid..... give them all a chance.

He could have wiped them all out immediately after absorbing 18, but instead decided to test his powers out on Trunks and Vegeta, and THEN give them another chance to get stronger.

It's almost as ******ed as Garlik Jr using the Dead Zone again.

And even still, Goku didn't fear Cell. It wasn't until Piccolo gave Goku that realization that fear started to incapacitate Goku. And thus, comes into play what you said.

He didn't fear him because he never intended to attempt to win. He wanted Gohan to watch Cell fight so he'd have a better chance of beating Cell later on. What Goku didn't bother to take into account is that while he was getting worn out while fighting Cell, Cell wasn't breaking a sweat. Goku'd be stood there panting, and Cell'd stand there saying 'shall we resume?'

THAT'S why i'm saying Goku didn't know what he was up against. At no point does Cell try to go full power until he's fighting SSJ2 Gohan, who totally outclassed his 100% power anyway, and since Goku didn't know that there was a 2nd SSJ level, he couldn't have known that Gohan would win. He knew Gohan was their best shot, but since he didn't have all the facts, he couldn't have known they would definitely win.

I mean, when Gohan DOES go SSJ2, he still refuses to kill Cell. He beats him shitless, but he won't kill him. It's not until Goku has sacrificed himself and Cell comes back even MORE powerful than before, kills Trunks, knocks out Vegeta and tries to eradicate the planet that Gohan finally decides to get serious, and even then Goku has to scream in his ear 'DO IT NOW SON!' like 5 times, before he actually goes all out.

Damn, well someone sure has the advantage here seeing as how he has everything fresh in his memory.

On a side note, I started rewatching the entire Dragonball series (DB, DBZ DBGT) from beginning to end back in August. Unfortunately, I'm still in the midst of the Frieza saga.

Damn that saga takes forever doesn't it?

3 weeks? Is that really how long it was? I coulda sworn it was 2 week. The last week is the week of the Cell games. 1 day from Vegeta training with Trunks. Before that, it wasn't too long of a time interval.

Well who knows really? I'm counting it from Cell arriving in the present, not Cell becoming perfect, so, which ever.

Wrong, sir. If you recall, Piccolo wasn't the only one who was able to sense Cell's presence. He may have been the first, but I distinctly remember Goku too had sensed Cell's presence once he had woken up from his long sleep if not during his sleep.

Kami notices that evil is growing on Earth and Piccolo asks him repeatedly what he's talking about. Eventually the pair mergre and Piccolo knows the score. He then fights Cell and Cell is forced to power up to defend himself. There's then several episodes where the Z-Fighters are chasing him from city to city, occassionally having to tussle with him. While ALL of that is going on, Cell i still absorbing civillians, thereby getting a power increase every time he does. On top of that, he even absorbed some of Piccolo's energy which probably was a BIG help.

What i'm saying is, between Kami getting worried and Goku waking up, Cell had not increased his power dramatically, he'd also been forced to use it several times as well, so i'd be surprised if he couldn't sense him really. He could sense Frieza across space, so he should've known about Cell regardless.

But that didn't happen now did it? As you said, Trunks was aware of what was going to happen; thus, was able to avoid said consequences. In other words, there was no threat. The Trunks that did die, though - that isn't necissarily part of the Z-fighters that we're discussing. The trunks that died was in an alternate reality. The ones we're talking about are the ones that live to see GT.

It's confusing just how many realities were involved in that time travel stuff. I always thought it was 2 but obviously it must have been 3. If it had been 2 and Trunks killed 1st form Cell in the future, surely none of that would have ever happened. But then again, it HAD to happen because that was the only way Trunks could ever gain the strength he needed to defeat the androids.

When we're comparing the amount of threat a villian posed, we're not comparing power-levels as that would be an unbalanced line of options. Going by that theory, we'd both have to conclude that Buu was the greater threat because he was WAY stronger than both Cell and Frieza.

Agreed.

In addition, the difference between this and when Vegeta sent Radditz for Goku was that Vegeta went with the idealism that he was WAY stronger than Goku and thus, his pride wouldn't be hurt if he asked Goku for help.

Did Vegeta send Raditz? THAT is the question. Raditz claims that he's come for Goku because he wants him to join them. He also claims that they work as pirates for hire, when in reality, they are slaves to Frieza, they have no choice but to do as he commands or the Saiyan race is extinct.

I don't think Vegeta sent Raditz anywhere. I think Raditz went off on his own to get Goku to join them so that there were more Saiyans around to intimidate Frieza. When Vegeta and Nappa learn that Raditz is dead, they really couldn't care less and are focused on Dragonballs only.

Vegeta constantly refers to Goku as 3rd rate scum compared to his, Nappa's and Raditz elite status, so why would Vegeta want scum in his elite ranks?

Fallacy. If you're a store manager at a restuarant, your employees answer to you correct? But what happens when the market coach (the boss of the store manager) visits your restuarant? Do not the employees answer to him because he is at a higher standing than the store manager? If the market coach were to tell one of your employees to do something, they would have to do what he told them to do regardless of what the store manager said before hand.

Our area manager visits once every other month, asks how everyone is, and that's it. Every single time. He may quiz people on new policies, but the only person who'd get it in the neck for one of us making a mistake is our manager.

So in DBZ terms if Frieza told Vegeta, to tell Raditz to blow up a moon and Raditz didn't destroy it completely, Frieza would kill Vegeta and Raditz would still be stood there.

I know what you're saying, I just think that the Saiyans were desperate to undermine Frieza in any way possible, except Vegeta had a lot more patience about it. If it'd been up to Nappa and Raditz, they'd have pulled a Bardock and just run in head first, all guns blazing.

You're missing the point. As I stated in the previous post, had Frieza never destroyed the planet Namek, chances are Raditz would have never gone in search for Goku and Vegeta and Nappa would have never came for the Dragonballs.

You never learn why Raditz went after him. Raditz gives a bunch of reasons, but they're never followed up on again after his death. Vegeta and Nappa make no comments about wanting Goku in their ranks until after Nappa is killed by Vegeta, and Frieza never makes mention of even knowing that there is a 4th saiyan.

Do you see what happened there? It was a chain of events. Frieza makes the Saiyans his space pirate army -> Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta -> shit happens -> Frieza orders the saiyans to destroy a planet -> Raditz goes in search for Goku because his assistance is needed-> Vegeta hears about the Dragonballs -> Vegeta and Nappa go to Earth.

I'm always going to question that. Why Raditz came to Earth in the first place. Obviously to find Goku, but why, we will never know. Maybe in the comics there was a concrete reason, but in the cartoon, everything Raditz says is more or less contradicted in the next two sagas.

Wrong. It was because of the nuisance that the earthlings and Vegeta were that Frieza became so pissed at Dadoria, Zarbon - ultimately, it's the reason he called in the Ginyu Force - so that they could take care of the Z-fighters. Shit even got to the point where Frieza had to step in himself and go talk to Guru himself because he began to question the ability of his henchmen.

Frieza went to Guru for the password to use the Dragonballs. Nothing more.

If you remember Frieza got pissed at Zarbon and Dodoria for not killing Vegeta and Vegeta only. Once Dodoria's dead and Zarbon has allowed Vegeta to escape with ALL the dragonballs, that's when the Ginyu Force are summoned. Zarbon is sent out again anyway, but he gets killed and the GF take over.

Frieza was the head-hancho of all the goons on Namek. He ordered those goons that if they were to see any non-Namek creatures, then they had the right to kill said beasts. Going by this, had it not been for Frieza's orders, the goons would have never attacked Krilllin and Gohan.

But how often do Gohan and Krillin meet those guys? Like twice? They escape Dodoria and maybe meet two more guards and then they start running back and forth to Guru's and avoiding Vegeta. Vegeta finds them, beats on them, and then when he realises the Ginyu Force are on their way, joins up with Gohan and Krillin to fight them off. The GF are after Vegeta only, but when they arrive, Vegeta has some back up, basically. The GF didn't set out to find those three, they set out to find Vegeta and the Dragonballs and found a couple of shrimps standing around when they got there.

How much were the Z-fighters shitting their pants because they sensed Frieza's powerlevel drawing near?

A lot, but none of them ever had the power to take him out from the beginning and here he is even stronger than before in his Mecha form. They were all relying on Goku to come back and he didn't. THAT's why they were shitting it. If Goku had come back earlier and had been stood with them, i bet Krillin and Yamcha and Puar and all the other idiots would have stood there going 'you'll beat him just like last time Goku!'

Yes he did. He specifically told Piccolo that what he saw in the time Chamber was enough to warrant him to believe that Gohan would be enough to kill Cell. Ultimately, it's the reason why he had no fear of Cell.

And again i'll state that Goku never knew what he was up against to begin with.

You have to remember that Goku stated that he had no chance of winning just when he went to chat to Cell after exiting the Time Chamber. Cell literally stands there and does nothing. Not one thing. No powering up, no charging, no special attacks, nothing and Goku STILL knows he can't win. He gives up before he even tries and gambles that Gohan would win.

I've never said that once Gohan went SSJ2 that he would shit all over Cell in a heartbeat, but what i am arguiing is that Goku didn't know they could definitely win, which is what i'm interpreting from what you're saying.

Yes, but the thing is, is even if Goku was over-confident in Gohan, that idn't matter. At the end of the day, Gohan was able to save the day (for the momment) and thus reduced the amount of threat that Cell posed to the Z-fighters.

But that's in retrospect. You can't look at the end result and say 'well only two of them died this time round so it couldn't have been that bad.' I'm looking at it from the perspective of Goku and Cell trading their first punches through to Gohan blowing Cell away. Cell's pretty much the only villain who has every Z-Fighter gang up on him at once while he's in the middle of something. Buu dies at the hands of a super spirit bomb, Frieza's blown away in 2 seconds by Trunks, Cell was incinerated by Gohan with a Father-Son KameHameHa while he was diverting energy to combat the pee-ons and also got shot in the back with Final Flash by Vegeta.

As far as the hypothetical argument you mention above goes, to an extent, it could very well be argued that the biggest threat the Z-fighters faced was not Frieza, nor Cell. hell, it wasn't even Buu. No. The biggest threat would have been Dr. Gero...

Or Garlik Jr since he's the only one that was immortal, and someone could easily wish him out of the Dead Zone. They only lost because he was a moron. If he'd NOT tried to use the Dead Zone again, how would they have ever stopped him?

Lastly, I want to note that if I come off as a jerk or an asshole in any way, I am sorry. it was not my intention to expose myself that way - it's just the way that I debate. This has been one hell of a debate thus far and await your reply.

Right back at ya dude.

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Before I go on I want to note that this is the second time that I am doing this reply. Me being a fucking idiot closed the tab that I had been working on and thus lost all the work I had done.

Now, with that being said, let me begin...again...

See my interpretation was, Cell has two commands in his programming. 1. Become complete and 2. kill the Z-fighters. He nearly didn't achieve part 1 because Vegeta and Trunks had prepared for him. Vegeta's pride obviously got the better of him, and he let Cell become complete.

Dr. Gero obviously never said to Cell, 'don't be stupid enough to hold a tournament' so Cell decided to carry out his creator's wishes in the most flashy way possible, by humiliating Earth's greatest warriors one at a time.

Basically, Vegeta and Frieza's pride/arrogance caused Cell to do something really stupid..... give them all a chance.

He could have wiped them all out immediately after absorbing 18, but instead decided to test his powers out on Trunks and Vegeta, and THEN give them another chance to get stronger.

This is exactly why Cell wasn't as big as threat as most people make him out to be. He procastinated WAY too much - thus, reduced the amount of threat that he posed to the Z-fighters. Cell had the capacity to kill everyone once he became perfected, but due to his arrogance he didn't. As a result, the amount of threat he posed was reduced. Do you see what I'm saying now? There's no doubt that Cell was this all powerful creature, but the fact that he never really unleashed his strength til the very end shows that the amount of threat that he really posed was not as great as what was percieved.

It's almost as ******ed as Garlik Jr using the Dead Zone again.

(again) Garlic Jr was a fucking idiot.

He didn't fear him because he never intended to attempt to win. He wanted Gohan to watch Cell fight so he'd have a better chance of beating Cell later on. What Goku didn't bother to take into account is that while he was getting worn out while fighting Cell, Cell wasn't breaking a sweat. Goku'd be stood there panting, and Cell'd stand there saying 'shall we resume?'

If so, then why did Goku give Cell the sensu bean right after their fight? Surely, after his fight with Cell he would have known what he was up against. So why would he let Cell recover his stength?

I'll tell you. It's because he knew for a fact that Gohan could defeat Cell regardless of how strong he was. Goku didn't need to take Cell's strength into account because he knew that if Cell pushed his son too far, than Gohan would destroy Cell.

THAT'S why i'm saying Goku didn't know what he was up against. At no point does Cell try to go full power until he's fighting SSJ2 Gohan, who totally outclassed his 100% power anyway, and since Goku didn't know that there was a 2nd SSJ level, he couldn't have known that Gohan would win. He knew Gohan was their best shot, but since he didn't have all the facts, he couldn't have known they would definitely win.

Let me correct you right here. I distinctly remember that Goku did know that SS2 was possible. In fact, it was one of the main reasons that he got Vegeta to go with him to train in the hyperbolic time chamber. He told Vegeta that in the time chamber, you could train for an entire year in a year's time. In other words, that's the jolt one would need in order to reach Super Saiyan 2. In addition, Goku constantly referenced to a good number of people that there was a level beyond a super-saiyan - I'm pretty sure that you will remember that Goku said that quite often to Gohan as well as many others.

Goku knew that a SS2 was possible - and during his time with Gohan in the time chamber, he began to realize that if anyone were to defeat Cell, it'd be him. And because he was so contempt with the idea that Gohan would be able to take Cell down, that concluded to the fact that Gooku was not concerned - or at least, wasn't as concerned as he should have been during the Cell Games time period.

I mean, when Gohan DOES go SSJ2, he still refuses to kill Cell. He beats him shitless, but he won't kill him. It's not until Goku has sacrificed himself and Cell comes back even MORE powerful than before, kills Trunks, knocks out Vegeta and tries to eradicate the planet that Gohan finally decides to get serious, and even then Goku has to scream in his ear 'DO IT NOW SON!' like 5 times, before he actually goes all out.

Let's think about this for a minute. Gohan refuses to kill Cell, correct? Then wouldn't that mean that the reason that Cell became this huge threat near the end was because Gohan did not kill Cell prior to this? In other words, had it not been for Gohan's procastination than Cell would have been dead as soon as Gohan turned SS2. Therefore, the amount of threat that Cell actually posed on the Z-fighters would have been reduced.

Cell wasn't as big a threat as many make him out to be. Time and time again he could have easily been taken down. But due to certain events, that wasn't the case. But nevertheless, all this reduces the amount of threat that Cell actually posed.

Damn that saga takes forever doesn't it?

Fuck yes it does. A lot of the fight scenes that occur on that saga are repeated a bunch of times. Don't get me wrong, DBZ fights are my favoirte cartoon fights of all, but the Frieza fight is just dragged out way too much.

Kami notices that evil is growing on Earth and Piccolo asks him repeatedly what he's talking about. Eventually the pair mergre and Piccolo knows the score. He then fights Cell and Cell is forced to power up to defend himself. There's then several episodes where the Z-Fighters are chasing him from city to city, occassionally having to tussle with him. While ALL of that is going on, Cell i still absorbing civillians, thereby getting a power increase every time he does. On top of that, he even absorbed some of Piccolo's energy which probably was a BIG help.

What i'm saying is, between Kami getting worried and Goku waking up, Cell had not increased his power dramatically, he'd also been forced to use it several times as well, so i'd be surprised if he couldn't sense him really. He could sense Frieza across space, so he should've known about Cell regardless.

So we're in agreement here, correct? We're in agreement that the Z-fighters would have known about Cell regardless if Piccolo knew about him first. We're in agreement that Goku knew about Cell's presence without Piccolo needing to be aware of Cell first. Furthermore, we're in agreement that the Z-fighters would have still gone to the time chamber. Ultimately, we're in agreement that the threat that Cell posed in both his second form and first form were very minimal. Is it safe to assume all this?

It's confusing just how many realities were involved in that time travel stuff. I always thought it was 2 but obviously it must have been 3. If it had been 2 and Trunks killed 1st form Cell in the future, surely none of that would have ever happened. But then again, it HAD to happen because that was the only way Trunks could ever gain the strength he needed to defeat the androids.

You saying that is getting me confused.

But in any case, Cell, in his first form provided little to no threat to the Z-fighters. His goal then was to become complete - and that's it. Sure, he probably had intentions to kill the Z-fighters afterwards, but at the time, Cell wasn't a threat to the Z-warriors, nor was he even strong enough to kill them.

Agreed.

About damn time.

Did Vegeta send Raditz? THAT is the question. Raditz claims that he's come for Goku because he wants him to join them. He also claims that they work as pirates for hire, when in reality, they are slaves to Frieza, they have no choice but to do as he commands or the Saiyan race is extinct.

This is exactly why I am arguing that Frieza was the bigger threat. Frieza had the saiyans like puppets. They had to do whatever Frieza told them to do. They had to become space pirates. They had to conquer planets. And what happens when they can't handle a planet on their own? They need Goku's help. Ultimately, it leads the Z-fighters to have all the unfortunate events that they had.

I don't think Vegeta sent Raditz anywhere. I think Raditz went off on his own to get Goku to join them so that there were more Saiyans around to intimidate Frieza. When Vegeta and Nappa learn that Raditz is dead, they really couldn't care less and are focused on Dragonballs only.

Vegeta constantly refers to Goku as 3rd rate scum compared to his, Nappa's and Raditz elite status, so why would Vegeta want scum in his elite ranks?

I agree with you stating that it was Raditz's idea to come after Goku. However, I'm pretty confident that Vegeta would have accepted Goku's help regardless of being a third-class scum simply because Goku was a saiyan. If you recall, Vegeta had even offered Goku to join forces with him so that they could both become immortal and become supreme rulers of the universe. It was only because Goku refused Vegeta's offer that Vegeta began to insult Goku.

But it was more than that. Vegeta began to refer to Goku as a third rate scum for the reason that he would never accept the fact that Goku was indeed stronger than Vegeta. His ego was too big. He'd never admit to Goku being stronger. Therefore, he would begin to refer to Goku as a third rate scum (etc).

Our area manager visits once every other month, asks how everyone is, and that's it. Every single time. He may quiz people on new policies, but the only person who'd get it in the neck for one of us making a mistake is our manager.

I don't know where it is you work, but let me say that if a market coach commands one of the employees of a store manager to do something, then they must abide by his rules. Generally speaking, a market coach will never intervene with a manager's handling of his team because, well, that's the manager's job - not his. However, just because the market coach doesn't intervene, doesn't mean that he doesn't have the authority to do so - because he does. The market coach has every right to order, punish, or fire any regular emplyee.

So in DBZ terms if Frieza told Vegeta, to tell Raditz to blow up a moon and Raditz didn't destroy it completely, Frieza would kill Vegeta and Raditz would still be stood there.

I know what you're saying, I just think that the Saiyans were desperate to undermine Frieza in any way possible, except Vegeta had a lot more patience about it. If it'd been up to Nappa and Raditz, they'd have pulled a Bardock and just run in head first, all guns blazing.

so true.

But anyways, take a good look at what you're saying here. Do you honestly believe that if Raditz fucked up that Frieza would kill Vegeta? Don't you think that Frieza would kill Raditz? - Because it WAS Raditz's job to destroy the planet and it was RADITZ that failed to do so. I sincerely doubt that Frieza would kill Vegeta for a mistake Raditz made. Sure, Vegeta would have been punished but Raditz would have been the one that be killed - not Vegeta.

Raditz and Nappa answered to Vegeta - but if Frieza had ordered one of the two to do something, then they'd have no other choice but to go through with Frieza's orders because he is in a higher standing than Vegeta. Frieza is the big boss - everyone answers to him above all else.

You never learn why Raditz went after him. Raditz gives a bunch of reasons, but they're never followed up on again after his death. Vegeta and Nappa make no comments about wanting Goku in their ranks until after Nappa is killed by Vegeta, and Frieza never makes mention of even knowing that there is a 4th saiyan.

I'm always going to question that. Why Raditz came to Earth in the first place. Obviously to find Goku, but why, we will never know. Maybe in the comics there was a concrete reason, but in the cartoon, everything Raditz says is more or less contradicted in the next two sagas.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/dragon-ball-chapter-197-page-3.html

There's the proof. A good portion of the contradiction is through fault of the anime. In the manga, however, it's all straight-forawrd.

But now that I bullet proofed my thoery, let me restate it to show you why it is true:

Frieza makes the Saiyans his space pirate army -> Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta -> shit happens -> Frieza orders the saiyans to destroy a planet -> Raditz goes in search for Goku because his assistance is needed-> Vegeta hears about the Dragonballs -> Vegeta and Nappa go to Earth -> Half of the Z-fighters die -> Gohan, Bulma, Krillin go to Namek -> Gohan, Krillin, Bulma, Vegeta face Frieza's Henchmen -> Nearly die -> They face Frieza -> Nearly die -> Goku comes in -> Krillin dies -> Goku turns SS1 -> Goku [almost] kills Frieza -> Frieza comes to Earth -> Everyone shits their pants -> Trunks kills Frieza

All of the above was both directly and indirectly caused by Frieza.

Frieza went to Guru for the password to use the Dragonballs. Nothing more.

If you remember Frieza got pissed at Zarbon and Dodoria for not killing Vegeta and Vegeta only. Once Dodoria's dead and Zarbon has allowed Vegeta to escape with ALL the dragonballs, that's when the Ginyu Force are summoned. Zarbon is sent out again anyway, but he gets killed and the GF take over.

But how often do Gohan and Krillin meet those guys? Like twice? They escape Dodoria and maybe meet two more guards and then they start running back and forth to Guru's and avoiding Vegeta. Vegeta finds them, beats on them, and then when he realises the Ginyu Force are on their way, joins up with Gohan and Krillin to fight them off. The GF are after Vegeta only, but when they arrive, Vegeta has some back up, basically. The GF didn't set out to find those three, they set out to find Vegeta and the Dragonballs and found a couple of shrimps standing around when they got there.

I wanted to adress these two points together since they require relatively the same answer. While it is true that the main purpose of Frieza's henchmen was to attack Vegeta - as you stated yourself - Krillin and Gohan were caught in the cross-fire each and every time - thus, putting their lives in danger. It may not have been directly, but seeing as how they were involved with Vegeta, it affected them too. Yes, the Ginyu Force was only after the dragonballs and Vegeta, but Gohan and Krillin were there. Doesn't matter why - they were there - that's all that we're to accounting for. And because they were there, they faced a threat like they never faced before - the almighty Ginyu Force.

Thank god Vegeta was as powerful as he was or else they'd have been screwed. Or tell me. If Vegeta was never there, do you think that Krillin and Gohan could have obtained the dragonballs or in the very least come close to one. The fact of the matter is, is even if they were to have obtained a dragonball, Frieza's henchmen would have eventually found them and thus, possibly killed them. There's no way that Gohan and Krillin would have been enough to take down Frieza's army all by themselves.

Just the earthlings being on Namek alone, warranted them for huge peril.

A lot, but none of them ever had the power to take him out from the beginning and here he is even stronger than before in his Mecha form. They were all relying on Goku to come back and he didn't. THAT's why they were shitting it. If Goku had come back earlier and had been stood with them, i bet Krillin and Yamcha and Puar and all the other idiots []would have stood there going 'you'll beat him just like last time Goku!'

But since Goku wasn't there that wasn't the case. But even if Goku was there, Frieza came back much stronger. iMeaning, t'd still have warranted the Z-fighters for facing a major threat because the last fight Goku and Frieza had destroyed the entire planet they were on. Now imagine what'd happen on Earth? Roughly the same.

And again i'll state that Goku never knew what he was up against to begin with.

You have to remember that Goku stated that he had no chance of winning just when he went to chat to Cell after exiting the Time Chamber. Cell literally stands there and does nothing. Not one thing. No powering up, no charging, no special attacks, nothing and Goku STILL knows he can't win. He gives up before he even tries and gambles that Gohan would win.

I've never said that once Gohan went SSJ2 that he would shit all over Cell in a heartbeat, but what i am arguiing is that Goku didn't know they could definitely win, which is what i'm interpreting from what you're saying.

I'll agree that Goku was over-hyping Gohan a bit too much to an extent, but as I stated on here earlier: Goku knew for a fact Gohan would be able to take Cell down. The power that he demonstrated in the time chamber was far beyond Goku's capacity. And seeing as how Cell and Goku were relatively equal - Cell being a bit stronger - Goku used deductive reasoning to figure out that Gohan was WAY stronger than Cell. He may have under-estimated Cell a bit, but nevertheless, his calculations came with few errors that still resulted in the same answer: Gohan had what it took to beat Cell.

But that's in retrospect. You can't look at the end result and say 'well only two of them died this time round so it couldn't have been that bad.' I'm looking at it from the perspective of Goku and Cell trading their first punches through to Gohan blowing Cell away. Cell's pretty much the only villain who has every Z-Fighter gang up on him at once while he's in the middle of something. Buu dies at the hands of a super spirit bomb, Frieza's blown away in 2 seconds by Trunks, Cell was incinerated by Gohan with a Father-Son KameHameHa while he was diverting energy to combat the pee-ons and also got shot in the back with Final Flash by Vegeta.

Yea? Then I guess that I should dully note that Trunks was from the future where he had already been previously trained by Gohan who had fought Frieza, was a super saiyan, duled with Androids 17 and 18 dozens of times, and more importantly, was the strongest person alive in that reality. That kind of puts Frieza's death at the hands of Trunks a bit biased, don't it?

If we're to talk of the end of Frieza, then legitimately, it should be when he fought against Goku. And how long did that fight last? It lasted ages. Goku and Frieza - they fought a fight that is arguably the longest fight in any television show history.

Regardless, there's one last thing I'd like to point out before I end my argument. And that's the gap in powers. You and I both came to the conclusion that we wouldn't base villians in terms of powerlevels because that gives an unfair advantage to the villian that follows the precedor.

But let's talk about the gaps in power in the time periods the villians existed. If we were to split up DBZ into different parts, the most logical thing to do is split 'em up by the major villians - Frieza, Cell and Buu. Now, in the gap between Frieza's power and the Z-fighters power-level it was a major difference. It wasn't until Goku became super saiyan that the Z-fighters even stood a fighting chance. In contrast, during Cell, there were a good number of times in which the Z-fighters powerlevels matched or surpassed Cell's. Same with Buu - many times were present in which the Z-fighters' powers surpassed Buu.

Ya see the connections? When Frieza was the main villian, the gap in power was much greater. With Cell, the gap was way smaller. And finally, with Buu, it was roughly the same as with Cell.

Or Garlik Jr since he's the only one that was immortal, and someone could easily wish him out of the Dead Zone. They only lost because he was a moron. If he'd NOT tried to use the Dead Zone again, how would they have ever stopped him?

Garlic Jr was a fucking bafoon. I always spoke of how much I hated that ******. But even still, if we're to take account everything that goes on directly or indirectly in terms of threat, I'd kind of want to argue that the biggest threat in DBZ history was Dr. Gero. He was responsible for the RR army, the androids, cell, Super 17 (GT). Heck, there's even some ties in which he was the reason the earthlings used so many wishes with the Dragonballs to revive people (etc). In other words, Gero would have also been the indirect cause of the Shadow Dragons in GT - Omega, Nova, Ice (etc). Something to think about...

Right back at ya dude.

Having to go through this reply twice, god-damn I exhausted myself, man.

 

[lenguy]

Since this might be a touchy subject for most fans but I want to discuss GT. I want to figure out why some people have developed such a harsh attitude towards the series. I've heard many complaints. Oh it follows the same formula as its predecessor(DBZ) Oh the main focus is on Goku, everybody else it made to look like a pussy. Oh its way to short and it seemed rushed. Okay we'll lets divulge into this shall we?

The formula: I can't imagine how different the formula would really be? Its really the same as DBZ, as it should be. The characters(in most cases) are getting stronger,powers increase and enemies grow stronger. How would you expect them to be defeated other than having some short of epic battle? Would you expect goku to reason with somebody like baby? Oh lets play a game of chess...if I win you leave in peace..if you win then I'll fuck off and the planet and its people are yours. No thats not how things are settled in the Dragonball universe. I really honestly don't see any other way they would have approached it. I'll admit they could of expanded on the series a bit. The Super 17 saga was way to short for my liking. The shadow dragons saga I couldn't figure out if it was trying to be amusing and serious. The baby saga was the only one with a true back story.

The character issue: This one bugs me a bit, the dragonball story has always revolved around Goku, Why would it be any different this time around? It only makes sense that GT would also be the focal point of goku. As far as everybody being weak, some people fail to understand that Gohan,Trunks,Goten are not full blooded Saiyans. They Don't desire to fight like Goku. It only makes sense that after 10 plus years of peace on earth that there saiyan traits such as the desire to fight would give way to other things life has to offer as they are half human. Gohan for instance, since is introduction in Z half of his life was dedicated to studies, this was evident throughout the series. It only seems to make sense than in a prolonged time of peace, there would be no need to train and he could focus on other things like Chi Chi had always wanted. So its just makes sense he would of slacked in his training and becoming weaker. Same goes for Goten and Trunks, I'm sure in the time of peace there more human side took over and Goten became obsessed with women and Trunks took on a bigger role at the Capsule Corp. Goku and Vegeta are full blooded Saiyans, the desire to fight is a trait of a full blooded Saiyan and must be satisfied thats why we always see the training. Vegetas a curious case, I would Imagine that in his older age he would of had a much subdued desire to fight, plus living on earth for so long could of played a role. Plus since he realized that he would never catch up to Goku in terms of power, he saw no purpose to train since he would never catch up to him. Because in DBZ that was Vegetas main motive for training, to surpass goku. In GT he seems to have accepted this and became somewhat more tamed, Until about half way through the series anyway when he realized the gap between his a Gokus power became to great so he decided to train again.

Uub is also a curious case because at the end of Z it seemed he was to take gokus role as protector of the earth yet in GT he mostly got his ass whooped. I guess the writes felt Uub was not suited for the role just like they felt Gohan wasn't suited for it way back at the end of the Cell games. I hope that clears things up a bit.

I didn't really love GT but then again I didn't flat out hate it. I felt it was a fitting end to the Dragonball saga. Coming full circle with the Dragonballs. But I did feel they could of put a bit more work into some of the sagas and expanded on them some what.

Why does everybody hate GT so much then?

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

I think everybody hates GT so much because it wasn't as good as Dragonball Z was. There is definitely a different atmosphere when watching the two series. In Dragonball Z, it was mainly about fighting and protecting the Earth. In GT though, it was really more about the development of different characters. Instead of the whole focal point of the series being on The Z-Warriors fighting various villains, it was more about the character development. People didn't like it because for the first 3/4 of the series, it was focusing on Trunks, Pan, and Goku. When it wasn't doing that, it was focusing on something happening on Earth. There was a lot going on in each episode, and I feel that many people just weren't ready for that. In terms of the actual story of GT, it was a lot more fast-paced than Dragonball Z was. Instead of spending 15+ episodes on one villain, GT spent about 8-10 episodes. This was probably shown best during the Super 17 saga. It was extremely quick. Two Android 17's become one, Super 17 ravages the city, Krillin dies, Super 17 is killed. That took about 10 episodes total. As opposed to Dragonball Z where each major villain would be around for a while, and once you finally think they're dead, they come back to life. So GT was a lot more fast-paced, and that's what I think really ticked people off in regards to Dragonball GT.

 

[wrestlingfan]

I'm a fan of anime and stuff on cartoon network and I love DBZ, but yeah I do say they relied on Goku too much. Frieza saga proabbly was what drew me into the series and Vegeta is favorite charri ebut one thing I started to hate abotu the series. It started to become just a pure Saiyan only show until it was just all abot Goku. I saw GT as another way of sucking up to Goku. I just felt after the Frieza Saga all the rest of the Z-Fighters were seen as weak and Vegeta and Goku basically just took over the show. Even Piccolo faded into the background. This was Goku's first enemy.