Sin Cara: Could His WWE Career Be In Jeopardy Before It Begins?

[DarkLordFett]

I don't think Sin Cara will get squashed any time soon. He has great in-ring presence. I don't know what his promo's will be like, we'll have to wait and see. The first botched leap into the ring was supposed to be due to the trampoline or whatever being positioned too close to the ring. I'm not sure what the second botch was. As for the botched finisher, I think that was more Primo loosing his balance. That's what it seemed to me anyhow. I think SC will be main-eventing very soon. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the SD MITB at all. Sin Cara is the future of Smackdown, he'll be fine

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I posted this same basic thing in the other thread, but I think it's more appropriate here.

If you put travis pastrana on a bicycle he'll still do cool shit, but he'll mess up more.

There are "lucha" rings with tight ropes (more spring) and harder mats (easier to balance when basing) and then there are "bump" rings. WWE uses a "bump" ring because they employ huge ass dudes. their ropes are also not typical. They are made out of nylon I believe and are a lot more loose than most ropes. Most ropes are rubber with a cable running through them.

I've heard guys like RVD say that there's a big adjustment when using the WWE ropes. Most WWE guys aren't experienced at being a lucha base and the ring doesn't help either.

In other words, Cara has a lot working against him. However, he's supposed to be a world class performer, get over it. If you go from hitting home runs in a small ballpark and you get signed by a team in a big ballpark, even though an equal amount of home runs isn't realistic, you should still produce.

I don't think he'll main event unless he gets massively over. Can he handle the media here? Can you put him on talk shows? is he safe enough? Too many questions to crown him a main eventer. It's also too early to say he won't be. Should be interesting.

 

[mral82]

I think if he needs to he should praticed he moves w/ his opponent earlier in the day after the ring gets set-up. That way he can be comfortable when doing it LIVE! He'll be fine hopefully in the long run.

 

[avi01]

He is extremely talented but am I still not sure wwe will work for him.When you look at his matches he had in Mexico, his opponent also have to take a lot of credits so I am not sure he will have the right people to work to full extent in the wwe. As far as main eventing is concerned, there`s that whole package that`s needed, being spectacular is not going to be enough. Really hope WWE give him time to adapt and don`t screw up cause he is real fun to watch.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I think if he needs to he should praticed he moves w/ his opponent earlier in the day after the ring gets set-up. That way he can be comfortable when doing it LIVE! He'll be fine hopefully in the long run.

1) that's what house shows are for
2) they DO practice before in the ring
3) the stuff they don't practice they SHOULDN'T practice because, believe it or not, bumping hurts. Maybe use a thick pad for the top rope stuff but even then you run the risk of slipping and missing the pad or landing on your neck.

 

[93178]

What would be awesome and IMO would help WWE out is if they brought back the Cruserweight division.

Think about it, the WWE is focusing on the young kids now and these kids believe that the high flying moves are real. If you have guys in there that both know how to do the Lucha style then they can put on great matches. But having the high flyers with mainly heavyweights who wrestle/preform a whole different way doesn't work out that good. It limits a lot of what the high flyers can do and how it looks when they do pull off moves.

If WWE brought back the Cruserweight division or even tried to bring back the tag team division using mainly cruserweights they could base the comeback all around someone like Sin Cara. You could have him as the first one to bring back the belt and be one of the main focuses of the division. Maybe bring it back on SmackDown so there will be something really different on SD compared to RAW to get people to watch.

Cara needs other high flyers and lucha style wrestlers to showcase his moves and really highlight what he can do. For people saying he should just get used to the WWE style its like if you where to put John Cena or even Kane in CMLL where Cara came from and expect them to be able to adapt to the lucha style right away.

Cara should of spent atleast some time in FCW to get used to the WWE style ring and the way they work or atleast have his matches on SmackDown so anything bad at first can be edited out.

 

[kaneso14]

Saw Sin Cara last night vs Primo at a house show in Belfast and he was fine. No obvious botches from what I could see and he pulled off a number of great spots. The crowd was lukewarm at the start but by the end he had completely won them over and got one of the biggest cheers of the night.

I think it's just nerves and the fact he is making such a big transition. New country, new people, new language, new style of wrestling. It could take him a while to settle but he looks like he has all the tools to be a star.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

What would be awesome and IMO would help WWE out is if they brought back the Cruserweight division.

Find my post on why this won't work. A lightweight title has NEVER gotten over in the WWF/E. I truly think it's because they see it as minor leagues. Just use the athletic guys to feud over the US title, you just don't designate it with a weight class.

 

[Daniel.Wood]

One question I do have is why are mistakes in the wrestling world 'bad' .. These are oridnary people trying to do complex things seeing them make mistakes is good surely. In real wrestling and real fights mistakes are made..

I think more 'botches' should be incorporated into matches

 

[The Brain]

One question I do have is why are mistakes in the wrestling world 'bad' .. These are oridnary people trying to do complex things seeing them make mistakes is good surely. In real wrestling and real fights mistakes are made..

I think more 'botches' should be incorporated into matches

This is actually a good point. I don't think "planned botches" should be incorporated into matches, but I don't think a botch should be looked at so negatively. Everyone seems to want things to look more real. Having everything go so perfectly flawless isn't very realstic. Mistakes happen. In the 80s Gorilla Monsoon would comment on when a wrestler botched a move instead of trying to cover it up. It made the match more realistic and by acknowleding it the botch didn't seem like a big deal. When the announcers try to hide it is when it stands out more. It's perfectly reasonable to think a human being could slip during a match. I hate it that now whenever there is the slightest botch in a match everyone has to come here and comment on it. Who's fault was it? Why did it happen? Who cares? Shit happens. Move on.

As for Sin Cara, I don't think there's any reason to panic yet. He's obviously new to WWE and I'm sure he will be given time to adjust. If he actual is Triple H's first signing I doubt he will be cut after just a couple matches. I'm sure Triple H wants his first singing to be a success and Sin Cara will get the opportunity to make Hunter look good.

 

[TheKingHustla]

I think most of the problems wasn't his, so it sucks if he didn't shine. I thought he brought something different how he did all those flippy moves but landed on his feet when most guys land on the mat. I think that they should either tweek his entrance or just say fuck it and have the trampoline out without trying to hide and sneak and do it. He'll be fine. The problem is gonna come when he faces the bigger guys. most of his moveset he wouldn't really be able to do with them. Atleast rey has moves where he attacks the bigger guys legs. I wonder how they'll adapt sin for that. All in all though, I think they need to hurry up and throw him in a real storyline and not matches with primo, because the buzz on him is huge, but with all of this stuff, the buzz his gonna die off fast, they better strike while the flame is hot. That way he doesn't fizzle out and they not get anything out of him.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

I'll start by saying that I don't think I've felt this way about the debut of a wrestler since Jericho's first debut. Sin Cara really got me interested in the younger generation of wrestlers, and his televised matches have been fucking excellent.

That being said, I get nervous every time I see his trampoline entrance, and he does botch it a lot. As awesome as that entrance is, it's probably a good thing they're getting rid of it. A particularly nasty botch could kill the steam of a match before it even starts.

About the reports of his botched matches -- I think it has a lot to do with the guys he's working with, and them not being used to the lucha style he presents in his work. Most guys that come from FCW, unfortunately, are used to either medium-paced high flying, or brawling styles, and not much else. For a guy to come in with worldwide experience, you're not going to find a lot of guys who are properly able to carry a match with him.

It's unfortunate, but Sin Cara might have to stick to working with Rey, Primo, Bryan, or Jericho (when he comes back), until they can come up with someone trained in the lucha style.

 

[The Calgary Kid]

Pardon me if I repeat anything here, but I haven't read all seven pages of this thread. Anyway, watch the match again. I thought the match was entertaining, but had some iffy spots, and frankly, I thought that Primo covered some things up well. One thing that I noticed was that he kept looking around a lot, particularly at the ramp. I kept expecting Sheamus to run out, or have some sort of run-in, because it seemed like he'd hit a move, stare at the ramp and look at the crowd. When nothing actually happened, it struck me as being completely odd. I think that he understands the amount of hype he's getting and is nervous.

After having botched his over-the-ropes dive on Smackdown (he pulled up short, stopped and launched rather than doing the running jump), he showed up on Monday and looked lost. I fully understand if they're frustrated with him, because he's not living up to the hype. Frankly, I haven't been impressed with the supposedly amazing offense this guy offers, as it's mostly been dives and hurricanranas with two or three neat spots thrown in. We've only seen one official match and two random run-ins, but as of this point, if I were Vince, I wouldn't feel like I was getting my money's worth.

 

[Heavens Vibe]

Nerves.
As for his botched entrance, hes done it 3 times on TV now... 2 Live, which he already explained as the trampoline being placed to close to the ring, whereas on SmackDown they managed to pull it off perfectly.

Loving Cara at the moment, and the botches aren't even that bad, they make it interesting because atleast hes making them early and can learn while he studies!

 

[TUFFY54]

People might think it's a little early to call, but I believe that Sin Cara will be a failure in the WWE.

1. He doesn't have anyone to wrestle. Cruiser weights like Sin need other cruiser weights to put on great matches. That is what made the cruiser weight division in WCW so amazing. The guys didn't have to play the cat-and-mouse games that all high flyer's have to play today. Guys like Evan Borne and Kofi may be "high flyers", but they don't work the lucha style at all. Sin needs other people that can move at lighting speed in the ring to amaze the fans. The "big guys tries to get him but he escapes" match gets old very quickly. (I'll address the Rey Mysterio comparison in the end).

2. His look is terrible. The WWE thinks they struck gold with the money they will make off the amazing mask that he wears to the ring. I'll agree that it looks awesome, but it will keep people from ever relating to him during a match. You simply can't see any expression. Other high flyer's wore masks, but you could see their eyes, or at least their mouth. Sin's mask prevents anyone from relating to him. This aspect is incredibly important to a wrestler getting over whether he is a heel or face. With that mask people wont invest in him emotionally anymore than they would to a Power Ranger toy they see a kid playing with.

3. His style won't work. People keep saying he's botching moves. However, that is really just the style he works. You saw it a lot with WCW cruiser weights. These guys move so fast that if they mess something up they don't even slow down, they just instantly do another move. It was never a problem in WCW because the whole division worked like this. A guy like Sheamus certainly won't be reacting to a botched move this way during a match.

4. He doesn't speak. His only works for monster heels. Underdogs, and he will certainly be billed as one in every match, need to cut promo's. This isn't just a creative decision. From what I understand, Cara barely speaks any English. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if they actually had a cruiser weight division. Today's WWE is run on intense feuds, passionate interviews, and drama. A guy that just flips and flops in the ring wont stay impressive for long.

5. The Mysterio comparison. Sin won't be anywhere nearly as successful as Rey was. Rey didn't get his fame by playing the cat and mouse games he's played during his WWE career. He gained his fame through high flying matches that American wrestling fans had never been seen before. He had 20 different guys he could go out and have a different amazing match with every night. He would have been nothing if all he did in WCW was run in between the legs of bigger guys. WWE also had a fairly decent cruiser weight division when Mysterio signed with the company. Another important fact about Mysterio is that, while an exciting wrestler, he became a top guy do to outside forces. Rey was popular, but the death of Eddie is what shot him to the top of the WWE. Before his heartfelt speech and tributes to his dead friend, he was simply an upper midcarder. I don't ever see Sin connecting with the fans on an emotional level like that.

I think Sin Cara is the Take Michinoku of the 21st century. Taka was an amazing high flyer who the WWE brought in to start a light heavyweight division. Unfortunately, he was basically the only one they brought in. He didn't speak English and after a few high flying matches, no one cared about him anymore. I think Sin Cara will have the exact same results.

 

[TheKingHustla]

People might think it's a little early to call, but I believe that Sin Cara will be a failure in the WWE.

1. He doesn't have anyone to wrestle. Cruiser weights like Sin need other cruiser weights to put on great matches. That is what made the cruiser weight division in WCW so amazing. The guys didn't have to play the cat-and-mouse games that all high flyer's have to play today. Guys like Evan Borne and Kofi may be "high flyers", but they don't work the lucha style at all. Sin needs other people that can move at lighting speed in the ring to amaze the fans. The "big guys tries to get him but he escapes" match gets old very quickly. (I'll address the Rey Mysterio comparison in the end).

2. His look is terrible. The WWE thinks they struck gold with the money they will make off the amazing mask that he wears to the ring. I'll agree that it looks awesome, but it will keep people from ever relating to him during a match. You simply can't see any expression. Other high flyer's wore masks, but you could see their eyes, or at least their mouth. Sin's mask prevents anyone from relating to him. This aspect is incredibly important to a wrestler getting over whether he is a heel or face. With that mask people wont invest in him emotionally anymore than they would to a Power Ranger toy they see a kid playing with.

3. His style won't work. People keep saying he's botching moves. However, that is really just the style he works. You saw it a lot with WCW cruiser weights. These guys move so fast that if they mess something up they don't even slow down, they just instantly do another move. It was never a problem in WCW because the whole division worked like this. A guy like Sheamus certainly won't be reacting to a botched move this way during a match.

4. He doesn't speak. His only works for monster heels. Underdogs, and he will certainly be billed as one in every match, need to cut promo's. This isn't just a creative decision. From what I understand, Cara barely speaks any English. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if they actually had a cruiser weight division. Today's WWE is run on intense feuds, passionate interviews, and drama. A guy that just flips and flops in the ring wont stay impressive for long.

5. The Mysterio comparison. Sin won't be anywhere nearly as successful as Rey was. Rey didn't get his fame by playing the cat and mouse games he's played during his WWE career. He gained his fame through high flying matches that American wrestling fans had never been seen before. He had 20 different guys he could go out and have a different amazing match with every night. He would have been nothing if all he did in WCW was run in between the legs of bigger guys. WWE also had a fairly decent cruiser weight division when Mysterio signed with the company. Another important fact about Mysterio is that, while an exciting wrestler, he became a top guy do to outside forces. Rey was popular, but the death of Eddie is what shot him to the top of the WWE. Before his heartfelt speech and tributes to his dead friend, he was simply an upper midcarder. I don't ever see Sin connecting with the fans on an emotional level like that.

I think Sin Cara is the Take Michinoku of the 21st century. Taka was an amazing high flyer who the WWE brought in to start a light heavyweight division. Unfortunately, he was basically the only one they brought in. He didn't speak English and after a few high flying matches, no one cared about him anymore. I think Sin Cara will have the exact same results.

You're points are very spot on. It does seem like the odds aren't in his favor. I think the not speaking part is gonna hurt him most of all. You look at all the top guys, from past and present, they all had one thing in common, mic skills. some better than others, but in order to get the fans behind you, you have to spit. Look at the young guys who are on the elevator going up, guys like Cody Rhodes (my favorite young buck by far), he's on the rise because he has good mic skills to go along with everything else. If Cara can't speak, then that's a huge part of the business that's missing. Maybe with the fact that he has that mask, he could have someone in the back speak for him. like a voiceover or a dub. Idk, it might work, until everybody finds out he isnt speaking and that's another strike on his resume. I want to be optimistic about him because I personally like the high flying, flippity, floppity stuff from time to time, but reality is knocking, and it isn't too happy right now.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You're points are very spot on. It does seem like the odds aren't in his favor. I think the not speaking part is gonna hurt him most of all. You look at all the top guys, from past and present, they all had one thing in common, mic skills. some better than others, but in order to get the fans behind you, you have to spit. Look at the young guys who are on the elevator going up, guys like Cody Rhodes (my favorite young buck by far), he's on the rise because he has good mic skills to go along with everything else. If Cara can't speak, then that's a huge part of the business that's missing. Maybe with the fact that he has that mask, he could have someone in the back speak for him. like a voiceover or a dub. Idk, it might work, until everybody finds out he isnt speaking and that's another strike on his resume. I want to be optimistic about him because I personally like the high flying, flippity, floppity stuff from time to time, but reality is knocking, and it isn't too happy right now.

You and Tuff raise great points, he does face significant hurdles. However, Sin has been signed for two things - merchandise & the Mexican market. The only reason he has made his debut on RAW is to gleam the maximum exposure to US fans. He will be on the smaller stature quicker SmackDown in 3 or 4 months. WWe cruiserweights traditionally are poor speakers and as a 100% scripted company, he can be coached through a short promo when needed - this can be rectified (especially if they could work a simple Goldberg 'Your Next!' sort of catchphrase) and don't be surprised to see him speak directly to the Mexican fans ala Rey. Personally, I like the full head mask - it's unique and goes for the superhero dynamic that's big with kids and it is his Mistico calling card.

There is a simple reason why John Cena & Rey Rey have never been turned heel - their cash cow T & mask sales. Rey's knees mean that sooner or later, the mask sales are going to vanish unless we have a new luchador, Cara's unique masks mean he can work alongside Rey and kiddies who have Rey masks will now want the Sin Cara mask too.

To be completely cynical, if Sin matches incorporate botches the high spots will be decreased, he ain't going anywhere because he's not there for his abilities. He is ONE of the best high flyers about but the WWe would have no interest in him if he wasn't masked and a Mexican legend.

 

[Louisiana Man]

Can't say I was too impressed, myself. Now, all I am going off is his match with Primo, but that botched spot was a killer. It was the finisher spot, and looked really bad. Primo had to sit on the turnbuckle for over a minute looking like an idiot while Cara recovered on the floor--even my 8 year old kid was wondering why Primo was just sitting there. IMO I think Chavo would have been a better choice top debut against because he would have had ther wherewithall and experience to make up for the bad spot. I dont think it's time to pull the plug yet, but they need to put someone in there to carry him until he gets his "sealegs" under him

 

[billm75]

They started him against Primo, jobber to the jobbers. It's not a big deal that there were some botched moves. They may be using this opportunity in the house shows with Primo to find out what they need to reign in on his moveset so he can work with the bigger superstars and get his push under way.

Primo caused the botch on the finisher during Raw, he slipped, and it looked to me like Sin Cara dove out of the ring trying to cover for it. Frankly, I think he should have just threw a punch or two, staying on the ropes and pulled Primo back to his feet, but hey, I wasn't in the ring.

Further, I doubt this is going to hurt the man's push or future in the WWE. When he has to wrestle guys that can't do the high flying style, he's going to have to rely on more Mysterio style offense anyways. You'll still see some of the head scissors, arm bars, flips and dives, but he won't be finishing them off the top rope into a backflip suplex anytime soon.

Give the man a chance, again, he's working with PRIMO.

 

[Robbierko]

I agree entirely with billm75, my first impression when I saw him jump/fall off the top rope that he was covering up for Primo slipping, I did not realize it was a botched move until I saw it mentioned here.

Besides that I thought they had a great fast paced match. There is enough promo guys on raw that it is not absolutely necessary for him to pick up the mic just yet. The other moves were flash and Entertaining.

I really think he will have a big future int he wwe and that he is way more interesting to watch that any of the current high flyers: Bourne, Kofi, Rey (same moveset for lord knows how long). Give him a chance and dont be so critical!

 

[dr.greenthumb]

maybe it's because i'm too old for wrestling. but this sin cara's style is just laughable to me.

having your opponent completely and obviously flipping and falling fully on his own just makes the wrestling seem funny and dumb at the same time.

i think this guy is awesome for kids and will probably sell some merchandise, but if feedback counts for anything, i can't see this guy working out.

now a lucha libre that is also violent and vicious...that would be cool.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

As long as he remains as over as he was Monday night, fuck no.

Have you EVER heard a crowd behind a guy with zero exposure prior to his debut like he was?? Fuck no.

He can botch til his little heart's delight, if he stays over like that. I wouldnt say his carreer is in jeopordy at all as long as thats the case.

 

[Burnout]

I don't think it’s fair at all to come down on Sin Cara for botches made on Sheamus. Sheamus isnt the type of guy who is used to all these high flying moves, so I can understand if Sin Cara has difficulty performing moves like this on Sheamus. I can remember one instance awhile back where Sheamus took a head scissors, off Bourne I believe, and he didn't flip or anything, he just fell onto his back, so yeah, don't blame Sin Cara so much with bigger guys who have had little experience with someone like Sin Cara before.

As for the trampoline entrance, how the hell did he botch it? Granted, the entries weren’t crisp and clean each time, but he made it into the ring, the intent and purpose of the move in the first place, if I recall correctly, and I still loved it the way he did it. Now onto the blip on Raw against Primo. Again, not really Sin Cara to blame, Primo did something up top, fell down onto the ropes I THINK, which knocked Cara off balance, so for safety reasons, he had every right to fall, go back up again, and hit the move perfectly, instead of risking a huge botch if he attempted to stay up top being off balanced and try to perform the move.

Don't no why house shows matter really. I seen two of his house shows, both against Primo, and they flowed perfectly from move to move. So even if botches were made in other occasions at house shows, it's not like they matter, considering the care WWE put into them, which is next to nothing. The guy is over like crazy already, and botches will happen to the best of them, but in his matches, only obsessive people are going to remember the botches afterwards.

 

[hollowpoint]

Sin Cara is becoming a fan favorite with his high flying moves and high risk manuevers. I believe he will be ok in the end although I do think that finisher of the top rope needs to be adjusted. It seems to take too much work to do and a lot of assistance is needed from your opponent in order for it to be completed cleanly. Other than that, I have no problem with Sin Cara. He brings something different to the table and it's a welcomed change because lately we've seen so much of the same ish.

 

[Reddog1146]

They need to change his entrance ASAP. i think that is where his problems begin in the ring. If you mess up your entrance, then you are under more pressure because you know you can not afford to make another mistake and you are more prone to botch moves. If you get a good entrance, then you are more relaxed. His entrance is pretty awesome but is very difficult, the guy is jumping over eight feet in the air, that is very difficult. I am sure they can think of an easier, but still awe inspiring entrance for him in time.